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  2. Finally! That is my whole point! They are people! We are not talking here about picking out a good loaf of bread off the shelf, everyone likes different bread! But everybody IS a "people." Nuff said for now
  3. Today
  4. Micah 6:8 is an awesome place to start. If question (b) were 'how should we treat people'? we would already be in one accord. 😉
  5. Which bit? The last one, about property? That is how I understand "Do not 'uncover the nakedness' of your father's wife (who is not your mother), because in doing so you are 'uncovering your father's nakedness'". Same for sister-in-laws and so on. The reason given for not sleeping with them is nothing about the women, it's about the men that they 'belong' to. Do you think that is an unfair interpretation?
  6. well; I have said it several times now, but haste is being made to alledge that I am calling something "sin" or someone "sinners." That is NOT the case. Read my posts agin. I did not use the word "sin" or "sinners" in any inferential commenting about LGBTQ people. What I did say is HOW should we treat them? Regardless of them being "right" or "wrong?" What I am pointing out is that in all our christian favoritism; in trying to deal with this topic, we completely over-ride scripture that IS pertinent to all people including LGBTQ. In the amorphous "science" and "scientific method" here, we are still left hanging on that note. If everyone would follow even one small text for this question; there would be very little of the gerrymandering we are seeing here as to who is "more right." Micah 6:8 is an excellent place to start. The really crazy thing here is that neither "side" is willing, or showing willingness, to do that verse with one another, nor with LGBTQ I view this as a very fair and pertinent question for this topic. What is it about the "pertinent scripture" that is making us like this? Posted 16 hours ago you stated: I have looked at Leviticus 18 and I dont see this in it anywhere. Did I miss something?
  7. I will partly withdraw the accusation of false accusations, after researching and noting that indeed briefly NAMBLA were members of IGLA, before they were ejected and disowned. Seeking to make the age of consent the same for all people of all sexualities is a quest for equality, not a devious brainwashing plot. Can we get on with the discussion of Scripture now?
  8. Just logically, there is a problem with including the question 'how should we treat sinners?' in a discussion focused on 'is X sin?' But sure, if it will mean that you are willing to participate, we can include that as a subtopic. What Scripture would you want to bring to that question?
  9. in one of the three questions I suggested we ask, you commented that you didnt "accept" it, which is fine. To clarify what point I was making, I would add that that particular point was not intended to focus attention on weather being "gay" was right or wrong, as in "open sin" or not. My point is, how should the church be responding to this group without trying to colonialize our judgments and opinions on LGBTqs I actually do not intend to concern my commenting here with whether LGBTQ people are "right" or "wrong." I would be quite content to participate in examining pertinent scripture; as as per those three questions I suggested, they should provide us with a discussion atmosphere that is safe from personal judgments on discussion participants. I note that your initial comments above seem to travel quickly to that place. There are reasons people will be hesitant to discuss this, in moving forward with it.
  10. Well, that sounds like a general non-specific accusation!
  11. Several false accusations here, but they are off topic for this thread, so I am going to ignore them and move on.
  12. Yes, they wanted to rape men, but they were given the option of having women. And they chose to do whatever their wicked hearts wanted. So, they chose homosexual rape over heterosexual rape. Many other references in the Bible to Sodom referred not to rape situations, but to possibly male temple prostitutes. You cannot exclude men who only engaged in non-violent male-male relationships from also being referred to as Sodomites. Beyond that, I do not believe I will really discuss these verses as to fully discuss them would result in Adventistan not being a "family safe" website. It starts to get that bad. One other thing which continues to get proffered up regarding this is that men have no choice but are born that way. I disagree completely. Even if true, that does not excuse it. Babies will steal from one another from a very young age (Ever see one of those cute Youtube videos where a baby stoled a pacifier out of another babies mouth?!) If such a child continued to steal, would the church just say, "He was born that way, so it must be acceptable to God." I think not, but then the way things are going, maybe! It is well known that many gay men were molested as young boys (minors) when they were unable to give legal consent. Technically, they were statutorily raped. I would mention that years ago, the International League of Gays and Lesbians had as a charter member the organization known as the North American Man Boy Love Association, but those meany conservatives in congress threatened to suspend UN funding unless they dropped the pedophile organizations from their league! (Can you believe it? The UN was funding these people!) And explain to me why the gay organizations are fighting so hard to get the age of consent for boys down to 16. One of the mottos is to get them young so they remain in the community. (And then convince them that they are born gay!) There are times in life when certain events fixate people in certain directions. But to convince someone they were born that way and God approves of them being gay because of that, is doing a severe injury to one already injured. I have no doubt the offenders will have to give an account for it in the judgement.
  13. Shall be affliction
  14. phkrause

    Trivia Quiz?

    Which game show coined the catchphrase “Survey says!”? Match GameThe Price Is RightFamily FeudThe Newlywed Game That would be Family Feud
  15. The question of how we treat people in 'open sin' is a very important one, I'm not denying that at all. But the question of this thread is 'What do the texts used to condemn homosexuality really mean?' The question about open sin is a different question, for a different thread. Putting it in this thread just muddies the waters... and, as I said above, smuggles in the conclusion that homosexuality is sin. No-one has yet suggested any texts in addition to the 5 listed in the OP that actually contribute to the question of this thread. It may seem that I'm trying to tilt the playing field toward a conclusion I prefer, but I'm really not. I'm trying to conduct a clear, disciplined, focused inquiry into a single (complex) topic. It's something I do for a living, and my views on what belongs in and out of the discussion are informed by a lot of experience in doing this sort of thing.
  16. Even in the men of Sodom believed the angels were men and wanted to rape men, no-one at all in the conversation is advocating for rape, so that case is not relevant or worth including. If you want to discuss Sodom, start a different thread.
  17. OK, fair point. Without appealing to what people think, then, I think it will be a more productive discussion if we confine ourselves to what people *do*, rather than who they *are*. I am in the same position as Gregory Matthews in the other thread: I believe sexual orientation is an innate quality of some human beings (there are genetic and biological differences), and I don't believe God holds how someone is born against them as sin. (Leaving aside the whole Original Sin doctrine and its variants.) Certainly I think *all* the texts we're looking at are about actions, not orientations.
  18. It's also worth noting, in relation to Sodom, that 1 text in the NT refers to the judgement against them as being for sexual practices, but at least 2 elsewhere in Scripture say it was because of their wealth and the way they treated the poor and vulnerable. Most of our developed countries are far more in danger of divine judgement for the latter than for the former.
  19. Yesterday
  20. phkrause

    Trivia

    5 Things You Didn't Know About Paul Revere's Ride On April 18, 1775, Paul Revere made his famous ride at midnight to warn colonists that the British were coming. Here are 5 things you probably didn't know about the midnight ride of Paul Revere... Revere Didn’t Make His Ride Alone Although Paul Revere did ride to warn colonists the British were coming, he wasn’t the only one warning colonists. Nor did he ride alone. Revere was accompanied by Samuel Prescott and William Dawes, and they split up later, going in different directions. The Longfellow Poem Had Many Errors Many people remember Henry Wadsworth Longfellow’s poem about the ride of Paul Revere, but the poem states that the signal at Old North Church was for Revere, when he was the one who told another person to spread the warning from the church tower. The poem says dead bodies lay in the yard at Old North Church, although the battle at Lexington didn’t start until the following day. In addition, the poem says that Revere rode into Concord, but he never made it that far because British troops detained him and let him go later. Revere Originated a Famous Phrase From the Revolutionary War “One if by land, two if by sea” referred to Paul Revere’s historic ride and was in Longfellow’s poem. A signal by hanging one or two lanterns from the Old North Church in Boston would alert local citizens and patriots if the British troops began to advance toward Concord. One lantern meant that the troops were moving by land, which would give the patriots more time to prepare, while two if by sea meant their movement toward Concord would be much faster. Revere Was Warned About the British by Dr. Joseph Warren The evening of Revere’s famous ride, Dr. Joseph Warren sent for him. Warren was both a friend of Revere and the last man left in Boston considered a major leader of the patriots. Warren told Revere that British regulars were planning on marching that night, most likely to Concord, to destroy or capture military stores there. Revere Borrowed a Horse to Make His Ride It is unknown whether Revere owned a horse, but even if he did, he had to travel across the Charles River to Charleston on a small boat and would not have been able to take his own horse with him. He borrowed a horse from another patriot named John Larkin to make his ride. Over the years, people have speculated about the horse’s name, however, a genealogy of the Larkin family states that the animal was named “Brown Beauty.”
  21. phkrause

    Sports and Leisure Trivia

    How many points are there in a perfect three-dart throw?
  22. phkrause

    Sports and Leisure Trivia

    Wilt Chamberlain
  23. phkrause

    NBA 2019 Postseason

    Thu, Apr 18 Schedule 8:00 PM EDT (3) Philadelphia 76ers 51-31 (6) Brooklyn Nets 42-40 Series tied 1-1 9:00 PM EDT (2) Denver Nuggets 54-28 (7) San Antonio Spurs 48-34 Series tied 1-1 10:30 PM EDT (1) Golden State Warriors 57-25 (8) Los Angeles Clippers 48-34 Series tied 1-1
  24. phkrause

    NBA 2019 Postseason

    Wed, Apr 17 Scores (5) Indiana Pacers 91 (4) Boston Celtics 99 Celtics lead series 2-0 (8) Detroit Pistons 99 (1) Milwaukee Bucks 120 Bucks lead series 2-0 (5) Utah Jazz 98 (4) Houston Rockets 118 Rockets lead series 2-0
  25. phkrause

    Bible "Trivia"

    Complete John 3:17: "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him…" A. might be judged B. should be forgiven C. might be saved D. might be illuminated
  26. phkrause

    Trivia Quiz?

    Who was the last U.S. president to have a mustache in his official presidential portrait? Ulysses S. GrantTheodore RooseveltRichard NixonWilliam Howard Taft William Howard Taft
  27. phkrause

    THIS DAY IN HISTORY

    April 18th 1906 The Great San Francisco Earthquake topples buildings, killing hundreds At 5:13 a.m., an earthquake estimated at close to 8.0 on the Richter scale strikes San Francisco, California, killing hundreds of people as it topples numerous buildings. The quake was caused by a slip of the San Andreas Fault over a segment about 275 miles long, and shock waves could be felt from ... read more » AMERICAN REVOLUTION 1775 Paul Revere and William Dawes set out on horseback to warn of British attack » ART, LITERATURE, AND FILM HISTORY 1956 Grace Kelly and Prince Rainier of Monaco marry » 1958 Federal court decides to release poet Ezra Pound from hospital for criminally insane » 2012 Dick Clark, host of "American Bandstand" and "New Year's Rockin' Eve," dies » CIVIL WAR 1864 Confederates slaughter black Union troops at Battle of Poison Spring » COLD WAR 1989 Chinese students protest against government » CRIME 1974 The Red Brigade terrorizes Italy » DISASTER 1880 Missouri is ravaged by tornadoes » 2014 Mt. Everest sees its single deadliest day » GENERAL INTEREST 1521 Martin Luther defiant at Diet of Worms » 1775 Revere and Dawes ride » 1942 Doolittle leads air raid on Tokyo » 1983 Suicide bomber destroys U.S. embassy in Beirut » INVENTIONS & SCIENCE 2009 Fifty-year-old Mark Martin wins NASCAR race » PRESIDENTIAL 1961 JFK denies U.S. military intervention in Cuba » SPORTS 1983 Joan Benoit wins Boston Marathon » VIETNAM WAR 1969 Nixon says prospects for peace in Vietnam are better » WORLD WAR I 1915 Germans shoot down French pilot Roland Garros » WORLD WAR II 1945 WWII correspondent, Ernie Pyle, killed at Okinawa »
  28. Ilan Rosen captured this gorgeous photograph of a grape vineyard in the Upper Galilee. Look again and see the rainbow!
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