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Comments: 1) Ellen White grew in her doctrinal understandings in the same manner that we humans grow. We grow by prayer, Bible study and the experiences of life. So did she. God did not intervene to immediately correct her in every element of her doctrinal understanding that failed to fully reflect the truth of God. As humans it is only in eternity that we will fully understand God. It will not be in this human life. 2) A study of the life and doctrinal understanding of Ellen White will show that over time her doctrinal understandings changed in a number of areas. 3) Much of the individual advice that she gave specific people represented a specific application of a basic principle to their situation and not a generalized application to be applied to all people in all situations. Many people err in failing to understand this. They fail to understand why she may seem to tell one person to do something that she seems to tell another person not to do. 4) God did not give the ministry of Ellen white to the fledgling SDA denomination to replace the Bible as an instructional guide to understanding God. The Bible fills that role, not Ellen White. God gave Ellen White to this denomination to administratively guide it in its developing years. We would not be the denomination that we are today if it had not been for the ministry of Ellen White. 5) In my personal opinion, we have people, who I will not name in this post, who in rejecting the administrative advice of Ellen White, are attempting to form this denomination into a structure that rejects the advice that God gave us through her ministry. In addition, I believe that such fails to prepare us as a denomination for the events that we believe will happen in End Time. 6) These are serious times. As I believe that some of the problems that exist in the SDA denomination are beyond human resolution, I can only wait to see how God will lead and the direction that will take, if God does lead us beyond those issues, which I am uncertain that God will do.

yeppers... he lets *humans* do the most of his dirty work.

I have received a private message from a well known figure in our church making the following comment on my above post. 1) (Agree!) 2) (Agree—and can add, “It is reasonable to propose that she would have continued to change her views, as she matured in her understanding of God’s purposes.) 3) (Agree! What you have identified is a component of the Historical-Critical method that some reject. We have applied the methods of this so-called “demonic” process to EGW for years, and don’t know it.) 4) (Agree! We claim we follow this process, except when we don’t.) 5) (Agree! These as-yet-to-be identified people appear to put their energy into making an organization that reflects their desires. These individuals might modify EGW’s well-known statement to read, “When the SDA denomination perfectly reflects the will of those who have been appointed to lead them, then Jesus can come.”) 6) (Agree. Interesting times lie ahead.) NOTE: I have very slightly modified the wording of the actual message sent to me. That modification does not change the meaning of the message sent to me.

sometimes, its not "power" that he uses, but rather, deception: seems to be his MO

By "Unfiltered", I mean they are untouched by anyone else messing with them such as comments out of context, those who are now engaged in rewriting to change genders to fit a new social agenda, books put out with themes thought up by the compiler and filled with out of context quotes, and other such misuse of the SOP. Speaking of Mrs. White's writings being superior to the Bible, here is a scenario which represents that well. It is a true occurrence and the names are "changed" to protect the guilty! Commenter: (A Bible text was quoted in a discussion and the text not really important) Respondent: "Yes, but what does Mrs. White say?" Knowing the "respondents" usual take on religious topics, further discussion became useless.

I received a message asking about the "ill fated Testimony # 11" and was asked to reply in a message to not change the direction of the thread. I then came back here and was reading the other posts and I feel that the answer would fit in with this thread. Once in Battle Creek, when James was on a long trip, doctors came to Mrs. White and asked about the things she saw in vision about our health work. Among the things she discussed was seeing a good sized building with towers. This lead to a huge fundraising campaign to raise money for this building. The testimony was published and spread around and work on the building was started. Loans were taken out to help as the pledges came in. When James came home and found out what was happening he realized that the church was not yet financially able to finance this building. He ordered the building to be torn down and the materials sold off even at a loss, and to repay the loans. Members were shocked in how can James rebel against a message from God. Another issue was the reform dress. Mrs. White described what she saw. Members began latching on each and every detail, even measuring distance of the skirt from the ground, and Mrs. White was bombarded with letters asking for more detail and specifics trying to make the reform dress exactly perfect as the divine inspired message was commanding God's people to do.

Jesus set us the example and told us to do as He had done to us. I saw that the example of Christ should be as exactly followed as possible. (Material related to inter-gender foot washing deleted) EGW Letters & Manuscripts: vol. 1, p396 I would disagree that there is no symbolic meaning to the foot washing. One of my favorite preachers to listen to described the Lord's supper and the events leading up to it. He noted that the "towel" Jesus girded himself with to wipe the feet of the disciples was actually a part of his garment he was wearing. So, as he washed their feet, he was actually wiping the dirt off of their feet onto himself. Symbolically, he compared this to Jesus actually taking our sins and our dirt onto himself. Part of the shame that he despised. We are fortunate that most people come to church with relatively clean feet. I have never gone to foot washing and found someone's feet to be dirty. But consider Jesus washing the feet of the disciples. They are said to have worn sandal like footwear and walked long distances during the day over dusty roads. Imagine the dirt on their feet! I guess one of the reasons it does not bother me is that after a long career of caring for people, some of whom were scraped up off the street in skid row and brought to the hospital. Sometimes, when cleaning them up, I would remove their socks, which would literally fall apart as they came off, and then wash their feet which probably had not seen light or open air for weeks! I suspicion that most people do not really keep a running memory of what the feet of their foot washing ceremony partner looked like. I see no reason really for being ashamed of what your feet look like. Everyone has seen someone with some condition they were glad they did not have and everyone knows that it happens. I imagine if there was a current medical situation that only doing one foot or even stepping out that one day would be acceptable. But I would also say to not worry what others will think of your feet. I had an aunt once who would never go to communion because she thought her feet were too big! Personally, I would not do foot washing with my wife. Somehow it seems like cheating!

I've always despised footwashing.... I'll wash anyone else's feet, but I'll be darned if I'm going to get my feet damp, then put shoes back on. And besides that, I'll wager very few people wash their hands afterwards, and then go in for communion and grub all over the crackers.

I don't see this as being gross generalizations at all. For me personally there are no true conservatives or liberals! Each one of us has both, we are liberal in somethings and conservative in other things.

i would say no. we had a very strong paternal presence in our family and all of us seven kids tend to be liberal, yet spiritual and conservative in ways also. Authoritarianism is connected to some conservatives, but there are conservatives who do not hold to this style. liberal and conservative are very subjective terms in many ways... so many degrees and styles of each. i know liberals who see conservatives as being less educated and religious nuts... and preoccupied with various forms of human authority. Some conservatives see liberals as epicurean and indulgent and immoral and rationalizing whatever they want to do as being ok. i know these are gross generalizations but it is what came to mind when i read this topic.

I think people, including leadership, on both sides of [whatever the church controversy du jour might be] have spoken and acted like spoiled brats. I don't even bother to read 99% of churchy opinion pieces anymore, because nobody is interested in understanding the opposing views. They just want everyone to embrace *their* views. And each side acts as if they have the moral high ground. What's kinda sad is that so many have become so driven, so involved, so wrapped up in being crusaders of their respective opinions, that if the problem were solved, the gasbags would all go into a deep depression because there'd be nothing left about which to fight and demean the opposition... because, you know, humbly spreading the Gospel doesn't provide the endorphin "fix" that they get from playing the victim...

All those who support the Ecclesiastical structure as set up by the Church of Rome in the 3rd century will nevefr support what Dan Jackson is saying. It is that simple.

Ambassadors for Christ

I have been wondering about all this push to prove Islam is the bad guy of Revelation. I don't buy it. Islam and other religions of the world, IMHO, could disappear overnight in the final events of the world. Babylon as the false religion of Daniel and Revelation will be there until the end. There is another principle in action in many of these strange interpretations of the Bible that I hope to get into soon. People have largely stopped talking about the impersonation of Jesus by the AntiChrist and the relationship to the Roman church. When the spectacle of the angel of light shows up in person, I suspect that all religions will quickly fall into place behind Rome and there will be no more Islam, Bhuddism, Hinduism, and so on. While Jesus will be seen by every eye at his coming, the AntiChrist will virtually be seen by nearly every eye via satellite feeds and HD big screen TVs all over the world, if everyone hasn't migrated to 4K by then. The whole world watching in unison can happen that fast. I recall flipping channels one night on my TV between shows and happened to land on a 24hr news show and to my amazement I was watching the Fukishima tsunami in real live progress. Nearly the entire world can be tuned into the same event at the same time. I remember watching the aftermath of the Kennedy assassination (back in the days of black & white TVs where one of the kids in the family was the remote!) and was stunned to see Oswald get shot in live action. But I digress!

Hid with Christ

https://spectrummagazine.org/interviews/2019/adventhealths-ceo-shares-his-vision I will suggest that there are a number of aspects of the above article that could stimulate discussion. The following quote is only one:

In another article by Rabbi Cahn, he talks about the "Tractate Sanhedrin" - the very same Sanhedrin that condemned Jesus to death for blasphemy - taken from the Talmud. According to Cahn, the Sanhedrin wrote concerning Jesus: "Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted." This rings strangely of the first part of Isaiah 53. Strange how the very Sanhedrin that condemned Jesus to death for falsely claiming to be the Messiah (causing Him to be despised, rejected, wounded, and afflicted) fulfilled one of the prophecies proving that Jesus was the Messiah.

I would also like to see background checks on the occupants of any houses I might visit! Seriously, in this #MeToo era, I would not go to anyones house I did not know without company. I considered some lines of work that would involve home visits, but no more. Bible studies might have to be done in public places. In my town, we have a fast food restaurant where the manager welcomes peoples to come in and study their Bibles even in groups. He says it lends a more positive atmosphere to their restaurant. So, one of the men that comes in there is a retired teacher of religion, computers, and math. He teaches Sunday school in the church where my mom graduated from cradle roll in 1927!

I know the article said this - not you. Not trying to dispute anything; just saying that I agree with the article. No big deal - you are free to believe whatever you want. It's not like it's a salvational issue.

Overall Question: What do the seals individually and collectively tell us about God and this earth's history? Memory Text: Revelation 5:9-10 Common English Bible 9 They took up a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slain, and by your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe, language, people, and nation.10 You made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will rule on earth.” Sunday – The Opening of the First Seal First Seal – church in apostolic age (c. A.D. 31-100) Revelation 6:1-8 New Living Translation As I watched, the Lamb broke the first of the seven seals on the scroll. Then I heard one of the four living beings say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked up and saw a white horse standing there. Its rider carried a bow, and a crown was placed on his head. He rode out to win many battles and gain the victory.3 When the Lamb broke the second seal, I heard the second living being say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere. 5 When the Lamb broke the third seal, I heard the third living being say, “Come!” I looked up and saw a black horse, and its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice from among the four living beings say, “A loaf of wheat bread or three loaves of barley will cost a day’s pay. And don’t waste the olive oil and wine.” 7 When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the fourth living being say, “Come!” 8 I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green. Its rider was named Death, and his companion was the Grave. These two were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and famine and disease and wild animals. Revelation 6:1 SDA BIBLE COMMENTARY Seventh-day Adventists have generally held that the first horse represents the church …in the apostolic age (c. A.D. 31–100), when its purity of faith (suggested by the color white) and its zeal led it forth to make the greatest spiritual conquests in Christian history. Leviticus 26:21-26 New Century Version 21 “‘If you still turn against me and refuse to obey me, I will beat you seven times harder. The more you sin, the more you will be punished. 22 I will send wild animals to attack you, and they will take your children away from you and destroy your cattle. They will make you so few in number the roads will be empty. 23 “‘If you don’t learn your lesson after all these things, and if you still turn against me, 24 I will also turn against you. I will punish you seven more times for your sins. 25 You broke my agreement, and I will punish you. I will bring armies against you, and if you go into your cities for safety, I will cause diseases to spread among you so that your enemy will defeat you. 26 There will be very little bread to eat; ten women will be able to cook all your bread in one oven. They will measure each piece of bread, and you will eat, but you will still be hungry. Matthew 24:1-14 New English Translation Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings. 2 And he said to them, “Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth, not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!” 3 As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4 Jesus answered them, “Watch out that no one misleads you. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will mislead many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. Make sure that you are not alarmed, for this must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 For nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these things are the beginning of birth pains.9 “Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and will kill you. You will be hated by all the nations because of my name. 10 Then many will be led into sin, and they will betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will appear and deceive many, 12 and because lawlessness will increase so much, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the person who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole inhabited earth as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. Monday – The Second and Third Seals Second Seal – church under persecution (A.D. 100-313) Third Seal – church after government recognition (A.D. 313 – 538) Revelation 6:3-4 Easy-to-Read Version 3 The Lamb opened the second seal. Then I heard the second living being say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse came out, a red one. The rider on the horse was given power to take away peace from the earth so that people would kill each other. He was given a big sword. Revelation 6:4 SDA BIBLE COMMENTARY The symbolism of the second horseman well portrays conditions under which the church found itself from about A.D. 100–313. The violent persecutions it suffered at the hands of the Roman Caesars are well characterized by a horseman who carries a “great sword” and has power “to take peace from the earth.” Revelation 6:5-6 King James Version “And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.” Revelation 6:6 SDA BIBLE COMMENTARY As applied to the period of Christian history following the legalization of Christianity, about A.D. 313–538, the words of the unidentified speaker may be interpreted as indicating a general preoccupation with material things. Leviticus 26:26 English Standard Version When I break your supply of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in a single oven and shall dole out your bread again by weight, and you shall eat and not be satisfied. Ezekiel 4:16 Contemporary English Version Ezekiel, the people of Jerusalem will starve. They will have so little food and water that they will be afraid and hopeless. Tuesday – The Scene of the Fourth Seal Fourth Seal – Middle Ages to Reformation’s start (A.D. 538-1517) Revelation 6:7-8 God’s Word Translation 7 When the lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Go!” 8 I looked, and there was a pale horse, and its rider’s name was Death. Hell followed him. They were given power over one-fourth of the earth to kill people using wars, famines, plagues, and the wild animals on the earth. Revelation 6:8 SDA BIBLE COMMENTARY The ravages of the sword, killing men and destroying crops, produce hunger; hunger, resulting in the breakdown of health, brings pestilence; and when pestilence has taken its toll, human society is so weakened that it cannot protect itself against the inroads of wild beasts. Revelation 6:6 New International Reader’s Version Next, I heard what sounded like a voice coming from among the four living creatures. It said, “Two pounds of wheat for a day’s pay. And six pounds of barley for a day’s pay. And leave the olive oil and the wine alone!” 1 Samuel 16:13 Modern English Version Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brothers. And the Spirit of the Lord came on David from that day forward. So Samuel arose and went to Ramah. Acts 10:38 Holman Christian Standard Bible how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were under the tyranny of the Devil, because God was with Him. Mark 2:22 New Life Version And no one puts new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins; and the wine is lost, also the skins. But one puts new wine into fresh wineskins. Wednesday – The Opening of the Fifth Seal Fifth Seal – Persecutions during Reformation (c. 1517 – 1755) Revelation 6:9-10 New Revised Standard Version 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?” Revelation 6:9 SDA BIBLE COMMENTARY It appears that the symbolization of the fifth seal was presented to encourage those who faced martyrdom and death, with the assurance that despite the seeming triumph of the enemy, vindication would ultimately come. Revelation 6:11 New International Version Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been. Deuteronomy 32:43 Good News Translation “Nations, you must praise the Lord's people—he punishes all who kill them. He takes revenge on his enemies and forgives the sins of his people.” Psalm 79:10 Contemporary English Version Why should nations ask us, “Where is your God?” Let us and the other nations see you take revenge for your servants who died a violent death. Thursday – The Opening of the Sixth Seal Sixth Seal – Physical signs of Christ’s Coming (1755-1780+) Revelation 6:12-14 Christian Standard Bible 12 Then I saw him open the sixth seal. A violent earthquake occurred; the sun turned black like sackcloth made of hair; the entire moon became like blood; 13 the stars of heaven fell to the earth as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a high wind; 14 the sky was split apart like a scroll being rolled up; and every mountain and island was moved from its place. Revelation 6:12 SDA BIBLE COMMENTARY The events of the sixth seal reveal the disjointing of the physical universe…. The darkening of the sun is frequently mentioned in OT prophecy in connection with the catastrophes that precede the day of the Lord. Matthew 24:29-30 New Century Version 29 “Soon after the trouble of those days, ‘the sun will grow dark, and the moon will not give its light. The stars will fall from the sky. And the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ Isaiah 13:10; 34:4 30 “At that time, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. Then all the peoples of the world will cry. They will see the Son of Man coming on clouds in the sky with great power and glory. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 New Living Translation 7 And God will provide rest for you who are being persecuted and also for us when the Lord Jesus appears from heaven. He will come with his mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don’t know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power. 10 When he comes on that day, he will receive glory from his holy people—praise from all who believe. And this includes you, for you believed what we told you about him. Malachi 3:2 New Living Translation But who will be able to endure it when he comes? Who will be able to stand and face him when he appears? For he will be like a blazing fire that refines metal, or like a strong soap that bleaches clothes.

I kind of prefer Mrs. White unfiltered! That includes compilations of her works by others. True, she may have written the comments, but it is sometimes difficult to tell the context. It is quite easy to use a sentence out of context even from Scripture. And of course, some people filter the Bible thru Mrs. White! And how little people understand the "does and don'ts"! Checklists and rules can be good for some kinds of tasks, but I suspicion not for heaven. But that is a whole other ball of wax.

I agree with Wayne Grudem's position. The footwashing seems to be akin to "bear one anothers' burdens" and "the first shall be last, and a servant". I do however think there is value in the ceremony in that it reminds one to be humble in a practical way. I don't believe there is any "sacramental" value to the ceremony.

You are challenging! Sometimes you wear me out. But you are still here; so I don't miss you THAT much!

it does seem rather "ho-hum" on the forum these days... I hate to say it, but I think political correctness has gotten in the way of vibrancy and interest — and has left a sense that one needs to walk on eggshells ... Sad. I miss the days of Mrs. Gray, and topics that aren't gleaned exclusively from other websites. Just IMHO.