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The short form of what I will try to say in future posts is that in my opinion, NO doctrine is essential to salvation. No one doctrine is more important than the next; they are all important. There is no doctrine I know of in scripture that says IF you believe this you will be "saved." There is however, a Person who is essential for salvation. And its by knowing Him, we are "saved." (thats the short-form)

There are several of us on this forum who's opinions differ from that of the SDA Church and prevailing SDA tradition. Some recent examples are the inerrancy of EGW, and the Trinity. While I agree that there are certain doctrinal beliefs "necessary" for salvation (e.g., belief in the God of Israel, belief that Christ is the only hope for salvation, a certain degree of conformance to the Laws of God). But there are other doctrines or strong traditions that we argue over that (IMHO) we don't necessarily need to believe to be saved. Do we have to believe EGW was an inerrant prophet to be saved? Do all Christians have to keep the 7th-day sabbath to be saved? Do all Christians have to believe in the Trinity (Three Persons in One God) to be saved? Do we have to believe in the pre-existence of Jesus to be saved? Do we have to abstain from unclean foods to be saved? Do we have to abstain from all alcohol and nicotine to be saved? There are many other examples of things that people passionately defend that maybe don't need such passionate defense. It might be necessary for some and not for others. For example, my honoring of the Sabbath feels like a necessary part of my personal doctrine to be saved. But that doesn't lead me to believe that all Sunday-Keepers are condemned; or that the Sabbath will be THE end-time issue. I'm not starting this thread to defend or condemn any non-mainstream points of doctrine. It's just that I think certain non-salvational topics and/or the people who support them can feel marginalized when they go "Outside the Limits".

IF the Lord has convicted you, that you should believe such, or abstain from such, then FOR YOU, this becomes a salvational issue. Why? Because you are responding to your Lord and King. Will you obey Him as your LORD, or not. The salvational issue is NOT the doctrine, or the abstinence. The issue is whether you will obey the Lord you have chosen. Paul wrote that "each one is tested". Adam and Eve were tested. I believe that everyone who is awarded eternal citizenship in the Father's kingdom, will have been tested. We are afforded many opportunities to pass and retry, during our lifetimes. Jesus was afforded only one chance. He had to succeed each and every time.

Since Bourdain's passing I have not been able to watch any program with him in it. There are some celebrities whom I sympathise with, knowing somewhat of their struggles that have been revealed. I respect their courage. Chef Bourdain made no secret that he was a former heroin addict. I wondered what sort of pain he had been carrying. Another death that touched me was that of Chester Bennington, who had been sexually molested. It makes me think of how deep some wounds are.

So, we assume that such was true in the time that EGW wrote. But, is it possible that today some labor unions might exist for which what EGW stated would not be true? As an example, I can show you quotations that suggest that labor unions hindered a SDA from being free from working on Sabbath. Yet, this labor union clearly seems to support the idea that this person should be freed from working on Sabbath. Context is important. Is it possible that there may be labor unions today that do not represent the problems that EGW mentioned in' her comments? We can look back through history and see where labor unions have been involved in violence, to include murder. We can see where labor unions called upon their members to strike. What if we found a labor union that in its entire history had never called for its members to strike and had never been involved in violence? By the way such labor unions do exist.

Thanks, yes, I think people are different, so a simple formula like '2 years no, 5 years yes' or whatever wouldn't work. It would need to be about sustained evidence of change. Humans love redemption stories: how many novels and movies involve someone making a mistake or doing something wrong and redeeming themselves? This might be a slightly different situation than what Gail has in mind, but I think one of the issues around redemption and forgiveness is that Christ redeems and forgives instantly. We call on His blood, and (from a salvation perspective) the sin is as though it never happened. From a human perspective, though, we need to make amends to those we harmed, and demonstrate over time that we have changed and become new people. 'Works' don't contribute to salvation, but they are very important in seeking redemption from others.

That's just the way Italian men say "hello"! Be thankful that we're not dogs. I must say that I'm jealous Gregory. Women have always appreciated me for my mind. That's so shallow! I have a body too!

There are many little details in the Bible stories, which one might not notice. On closer examination, those details help to validate the stories. Hissop for example. A mild little plant, which grows small flowers that last all summer. Awhile back I was experimenting, trying to find something that flowered, that deer wouldn't eat. I planted 5 different kinds in a bed one Spring, and the deer ate all but one right down to about an inch. The only one they didn't eat, was the Hissop, except that I bought it by a different name. When I learned that it was Hissop, I thought to myself. That's interesting, that God would choose a plant for important ceremonies - like Passover and the Red Heifer sacrifice, that wild animals wouldn't eat. I would love to hear examples of such small details which validate the Bible stories. I'm sure the students here can give many examples.

I agree with The Wanderer's excellent first post. The issue is to know God as our personal friend (which is the aspect of God's love and personality that we as Christians believe is Jesus). Doctrines are things to help us have a clearer picture of Jesus. Superstitions are things that make our picture of Jesus less clear. In the movie of the life of John Wycliffe there is a scene where a mother is grieving because her priest preached that lighting bugs were the souls of the babies who died without being baptized suffering in hell. How important was it for the mother's salvation to know that what she heart the priest teach is not a teaching in the Bible? Looking at some of your questions: Do we have to believe EGW was an inerrant prophet to be saved? Come now, what kind of a stupid question is this? Mrs. White herself did not believe that she was an inerrant prophet. There is no such thing as an inerrant Mrs. White, no such thing as an inerrant Paul, an inerrant Isaiah, an inerrant Moses, an inerrant Matthew etc. The idea of an inerrant prophet is just as much nonsense as the idea that lighting bugs are the babies who died without being baptized suffering in hell. Do all Christians have to keep the 7th-day sabbath to be saved? The Sabbath is 1/3 of the Exodus 20 version of the 10 commandments. The first third teaches us about loving God supremely, the role of God the Father. The last third is how the Holy Spirit changes us into loving and lovable people who love our neighbor as ourselves. The middle third tells us that the only way to keep the other 2/3rds is through resting in a relationship with this God, it is the role of Jesus. There is a blessing in the Sabbath. It helps us see more about Christ and less of superstition. But it is just a servant in the process. Do all Christians have to believe in the Trinity (Three Persons in One God) to be saved? With out the trinity we have an unbalanced picture of God. All of our pictures of God are incomplete (and since we will always be finite and God is infinite we always will have an incomplete picture of God.) but holding in tension the 3 aspects of the trinity is what keeps us balanced. The WHOLE of Satan's work are wrapped up in 3 lies about God. Each one of the 3 lies are about an aspect of the trinity. Do we have to believe in the pre-existence of Jesus to be saved? He won't hold it against you. However, if you do not believe in the trinity, then human nature has a tendency of picking one of the three thirds of the trinity and make that 1/3 god in total. In the western world we tend to attach ourselves to God as power/God as authority/God the Father. Emphases tends towards authority and submission. The tendency is to preach the law the law the law until we are as dry as the hills of Gilboah. A person in this situation may not be lost, but they are in danger of becoming quite beastly and thus accepting the mark of the beast. In Eastern religions they tend to emphasize the work of God working with our subjective. The work of the Holy Spirit, but make that aspect of the trinity god in total. So they look inward. But there are 3 voices inward: The Holy Spirit, Satan and the demons, and self, our thoughts and feelings. Eventually our judge of reality is our feelings and that is spiritualism. Isn't it interesting that while Satan is comfortable with about half the world worshiping God the Father as god in total, and the other half worshiping God the Holy Spirit as god in total, we don't find any aspects that focus fully on God the Son as god in total. Do we have to abstain from unclean foods to be saved? Do we have to abstain from all alcohol and nicotine to be saved? Maybe not to be saved, but it decreases our risk of health issues that shorten the time we can spend with our friends and family and other loved ones, or at least decrease our interactions with our loved ones. Pigs tend to have a higher form of self awareness and fear of death than is found in many other animals. What kind of character does it develop to want to put those poor animals through this just to worship our taste buds?

JOEMO are we talking about BIBLE DOCTINE or church doctrine??? the bible points out that the 7th DAY SABBATH is very important=== also staying away form any alcohol is biblical ==we are to be in good health as well as the TRINITY=== one church does not think is important as for the pre existence is also very important and pointed our in the bible as important ==the same church also thinks this is not important the unclean meats is also important for our bodies are the temple of GOD to keep clean so every thing here is very important to GOD if not they why did GOD put all these in the bible so yes every true follower of GOD needs to put all these things in there mind and life style as for the last point on believing ELLEN WHITE === the 7TH DAY ADVENTIST church was raised up to make things clear and to put all the bible truth in one church belief=== ELLEN WHITE was used by GOD to do this so to answer your question I will say YES if we want to follow GOD all the way all these will be in our minds and life style dgrimm60

A very interesting topic..I’ll give much more time in thought and study before posting, but I look forward to this discussion.

I have known Stan for more years than you; and I have been on this forum, (off and on) since it began and I have to disagree with you here. I have never known Stan to be the automaton that you describe here, and I have never seen him do this. If you believe that your antitrinity efforts on this forum are convincing anybody, then you need to take a closer look.

The thoughts that David evoked from me were, how far do I share the mercy and grace that God has shown me toward others? Do I replicate forgiveness the way I receive it?

LIFEHISCOST any death is a lost==== but taking one owns life is a very sad thing dgrimm60

There are over a hundred auto-immune syndromes, attacking just about all parts of the body, from skin, hair and fingernails and mucus membranes, to internal organs, to the heart, blood vessels, blood cells or components, to the brain and CNS. More are discovered with each passing year. It is amazing. Our immune systems are just going haywire. Things that were one dismissed as "all in your head" have now been identified as auto-immune - like fibromyalgia (for which there is now a blood test that is 80% accurate). I wonder if Alzheimer's will someday be identified as another AI. Most lifestyle changes are all about calming down inflammation in the body. This seems to turn down the body's immune response "temperature".

That may be true in some areas. In other areas, it's not that big of a problem. I have rarely if ever heard of a non-unuin employee at a union shop here in Denver being the subject of union violence. There are still cases of union grievances. I had a grievance written up on me when I was helping a union electrician work on a critical piece of equipment at a power plant (I was an engineer) My hand slipped and my tool dropped into the equipment, shorting out a control unit and tripping a 350 MW electric generator. I advised him to write me up since it was my fault (not his) that the unit tripped. I immediately went to the plant manager and reported the incident to him. He chewed me out good; but then thanked me for letting him know why the generator tripped; otherwise they may have taken days or weeks to find the problem and restart the unit. Otherwise, I have never been at odds with the union. I sometimes even got invited to their happy hours.

I mentioned that Steele is black, because he was writing specifically about blacks in the US. Far as I'm concerned, there is only ONE RACE - the human race. We are all the same color, just lighter or darker shade.

I typed out a few short quotes for you Al as I prayed, this is what came to mind. I hope you & your family find it a blessing, and that you feel free to come back and bless us with your participation. Isaiah 40:31 I Pray for Guidance & Strength The eagle of the Alps is sometimes beaten down by the tempest into the narrow defiles of the mountains. Storm clouds shut in this mighty bird of the forest, their dark masses separating her from the sunny heights where she has made her home. Her efforts to escape seem fruitless. She dashes to and fro, beating the air with her strong wings, and waking the mountain echoes with her cries. At length, with a note of triumph, she darts upward, and, piercing the clouds, is once more in the clear sunlight, with the darkness and tempest far beneath. So we may be surrounded with difficulties, discouragement, and darkness. Falsehood, calamity, injustice, shut us in. There are clouds that we cannot dispel. We battle with circumstances in vain. There is one, and but one, way of escape. The mists and fogs cling to the earth; beyond the clouds God's light is shining. Into the sunlight of His presence we may rise on the wings of faith. {Ed 118.2} Friday, Feb. 14, 1896. I awake at half past two, and seek the Lord, as is my practice, for wisdom and grace, mingling my prayers with thanksgiving for His tender, loving compassion toward us. The words of Isa_40:28-31 seem appropriate and impressed upon my mind. . . . {TMK 266.2} My prayer is, Help me, O my heavenly Father, to trust wholly in Thy wisdom and not to lean to my own understanding. Guide Thou my pen and direct my speech that I shall not sin against Thee with voice or pen. I must have grace. I plead, Teach me Thy truth, that I shall not err from Thy way. O my Lord, I am weakness itself, but Thou art strength, fortitude, and courage to Thy people if they will only diligently make Thee their trust. . . . {TMK 266.3} Sabbath, Feb. 15, 1896. The Lord is good and merciful. I want my gratitude offering constantly ascending to God. I long to have a deeper sense of His goodness and of His changeless love. I long daily for the waters of life. . . . I must continually have my strength in God. My dependence must not waver. No human agency must come between my soul and my God. The Lord is our only hope. In Him I trust, and He will never, no never, fail me. He hath hitherto helped me when under great discouragement. . . . {TMK 266.4} I will thank the Lord and praise His holy name. I will praise the Lord that in Him I can trust at all times. He is the health of my countenance and my strong tower into which I can run and be safe. He understands my necessities and He will give me the light of His countenance that I may reflect light upon others. I will not fail nor be discouraged. I look to Thee, my heavenly Father, to give strength and grace. . . . I will praise the Lord at all times and not wait for a happy flight of feeling. Then praise the Lord, for He is good, and His mercies will attend me morning, noon, and night. A happy flight of feeling is not evidence; His Word is my assurance. {TMK 266.5}

Thank you!I'm happy I found this forum and I know the Lord will deliver me and my family from this situation where in. Yeah I'm just taking this one day at a time please keep me and my family in your prayers.

Noting Wanderer's followup regarding an NRA type response, I was going to say reminds me of "people kill people, not guns!" However, for all the guys that would wish to partake, do your research on long term effects of marijuana on your male hormones. There are a number of bad habits that affect men in a negative way, including drinking, smoking, marijuana, and the case might even be made for eating meat in an age of high levels of estrogen being used to fatten up chickens for market. Just saying'! However, in hospice situations and certain other medical conditions, marijuana is a great help and should be considered a legitimate medicine.

Don't eat too many brownies, if any, and definitely stay away from anything synthetic. If you just smoke the weed, you can only get so high and that's it. No matter how much you smoke. And nobody has ever died from smoking it, just like the man said. I think the most detrimental thing about it is all the junk food someone might eat, after getting the munchies. There's talk here in NC about it...legalization I knew an SDA preacher who smoked weed, and I think he still does. He married the same woman twice. lol And divorced her twice also..

JOEMO I agree with THE WANDERER before you change churches ===I would go at least 4 to 6 sabbaths ===l like THE WANDERER said 1 time might not be enough to change churches so I would go maybe every other sabbath for at least 4 sabbath then make a choice dgrimm60

You have probably seen the news video of the male restaurant patron grabbing the butt of a female waitress. Well, if you have not seen it, she laid him out on the floor, and he was arrested by the police who were called. Thursday, I accompanied my wife on a shopping trip. While standing and waiting for my wife a middle-aged woman grabbed my butt! [I kid you not. This is all true.] I faced a decision: As I told my wife later: I was not about to yell out and make a scene. I was not about to become the center of attention in a large store where it was likely that no one would believe me and who knows what the woman would have said about me. So, I said and did nothing and the woman walked on without giving me a glance back. On a personal basis, I can understand females who are groped a little bit better now.

I find your recount pretty funny. Back in the mid-70s, a friend and I were on a packed, Friday evening train going between Lugano, Switzerland, and Milan, Italy... the train was full of Italian men going back to their homes in Italy (they worked in Switzerland during the week). We'd been warned by our Swiss hosts that we'd probably be getting pinched and patted by the men — and the warning was correct. We'd also been told what to do: give them the "evil eye" look, complete with the raised eyebrow and the crossed arms. Amazingly enough, it worked. 😄

The author is unable to see the forest because of the trees, and thus turns to tradition for the answers. He needs to ask questions like "What is the principle behind this application? Does she see only the application or does she see the principle that could be carried out even if the specifics are not carried out? How is this tied to the issues of the Great Controversy: The 3 aspects of the trinity, the 3 deceptions of Satan attacking the trinity and how God answers these questions? etc.