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  1. phkrause

    How old was earth BEFORE sin entered?

    That quick? Wow they could've held out for at least 2 weeks!! 😃
    3 points
  2. GHansen

    How old was earth BEFORE sin entered?

    This is the best quote that makes your point. "Days of innocence and joy is more than one day." Thanks for sharing that.
    2 points
  3. Ulunruh

    Has America Ever Been a “Christian Nation”?

    Very interesting topic. The link didn't work for me so don't know what it says there, However, in answer to the question, I don't think America was ever a "Christian nation", though if the Puritans would have been in control over more than their communities, and exerted their ideals over all of America it might have ended up as a "Christian nation" with government-controlled Christianity. at least after their concept of Christianity. Yet it is true that America was built on Protestant principles. In a large way, protestant principles shaped the culture. It is the loss of this culture that has many Christians worried. Christian Nationalism would like to see America as a Christian nation with more government and church together power and laws. Christianity Today describes it thus: The problem with that is that sooner or later the government has to decide who is, and who is not, part of that "Christian" nation, And that usually results in persecution. Remember back in history, when Constantine made peace with Christians, and later Christianity was made the religion of the empire? People rejoiced; persecution was supposedly ended. Christianity had won. Well neither was correct. Constantine wanted to unite his empire through Christianity, but very quickly learned that Christianity itself was not in unity. Almost immediately persecution was resumed, this time against groups like the Donatists and other Christian groups who didn't follow the state endorsed version of beliefs. It's a rather predictable result of religious nationalism.
    2 points
  4. Ulunruh

    How old was earth BEFORE sin entered?

    Interesting question. It's one we don't really have an answer to so I guess any answer is basically a personal original! However, I think it was more than just a weekend. We read in Patriarchs and Prophets " God saw that a Sabbath was essential for man, even in Paradise. He needed to lay aside his own interests and pursuits for one day of the seven, that he might more fully contemplate the works of God and meditate upon His power" That seems to suggest to me, that they spent several Sabbaths laying aside their own pursuits and more fully contemplating God's works. On page 50 she gives another clue that Adam engaged in work prior to his fall. "In mental and physical activity Adam found one of the highest pleasures of his holy existence." On page 51 of PP she gives another idea that Adam and Eve spent time learning about scientific wonders of creation. Then if we turn to the book Great Controversy we can deduce a few more ideas on this matter: "Adam is reinstated in his first dominion. Transported with joy, he beholds the trees that were once his delight—the very trees whose fruit he himself had gathered in the days of his innocence and joy. He sees the vines that his own hands have trained, the very flowers that he once loved to care " GC548 From those descriptions it seems they were in the garden for a while. Long enough to explore a lot of the things God had made, long enough to train vines and probably design flower gardens. But not thousands of years, probably not even a dozen years, For one thing they didn't have any children in Eden, yet once expelled they had many sons and daughters. Cain being their first child.
    2 points
  5. GHansen

    J H Kellogg & God's Nature

    What SDA doctrine are you referring to? Articles in a magazine are not necessarily official doctrine.
    2 points
  6. GHansen

    J H Kellogg & God's Nature

    A person's backside includes the buttocks but that's not what you said in your original remark. Several versions I consulted did not translate the word as buttocks. If someone says "Don't turn your back on me," normally that doesn't mean "Don't show me your buttocks." The word numbered 0268 that you say means "buttocks" is not translated as buttocks in the versions I have i.e. ESV, NRSV, ASV, ERV, KJV, LXX, WEB. Douay and others. The LXX doesn't translate it as buttocks, either. I find the idea that God having a buttocks was a fundamental truth of SDA that should be shared with the world, according to the general conference, hard to believe.
    2 points
  7. GHansen

    The Great Controversy

    Not sure what is wrong with being "anti catholic" unless it refers to hatred of individuals. I'm against the Papacy as an institution. Probably much of what EGW wrote about the papacy wanting to rule the world is correct. That doesn't mean that all RCs or every corner of Roman Catholicism is bad.
    2 points
  8. Kevin H

    The Great Controversy

    When Jesus healed the one or two men when the pigs ran into the sea; this was a pagan area. they would not have been Jews. They wanted to go and study with Jesus but Jesus had 12 good reasons to turn down their request. Instead he sent them as the first missionaries to the pagans. I wonder how comfortable we would feel if we could go back and attend their meetings or however they worked. But they shared the best they could.
    2 points
  9. GHansen

    The Great Controversy

    I noticed in mainstream media an article a few days ago about praying for the dead. Millions of people will see this article. Probably more RC evangelism than news, I hope all the people who read that nonsense could/would read the chapters in The Great Controversy on the state of the dead. Great Controversy is more of a reference book than a novel. Read a chapter here or there, learn something new or see another point of view. The spirit world hasn't passed away. Some of the things in the book are more relevant now than when the book was written. Rather than the entire book, the chapters on the state of the dead could be sent out. People interested in more could request more. I admit, however that I know very little about soul winning or evangelism. I've probably turned more people away from Christianity than I have attracted to it. I wonder what kind of evangelistic history the critics of the mailing have. How many people have become Adventist or even Christian by their influence? I'd like to know. Years ago, I attended an ethnic church. There was an elderly gentleman there, a refugee/immigrant who privately published a magazine in his language. Other people in the church were very much against what he was doing. They had various reasons why he shouldn't be allowed to do such a thing. What was the harm in it? An old guy sharing his faith as best he could. People have been converted by less sophisticated means. With God's spirit at work, a single page from GC could change a person's life, as could a single verse of Scripture.
    2 points
  10. Kevin H

    Investigative Judgement, History

    Of course God already knows. The purpose for the Investigative Judgment is a reflective twofold. Too often we study salvation as in me and my personal salvation. God is working from the great controversy theme for the safety of the entire universe. Events leading up to what ever was here turning into complete chaos lead to the two sides of the great controversy being formed; at that time God moved from purely evidence to a little bit of proof as he hovered over the chaos and said "Let there be light" both starting an amazing week; but also announcing that history was moving in a way where they could learn more things about God, thus let there be light about God. This starts the history of what was to become the fallen race. Now, although the two sides of the great controversy were formed; they did not yet close their probation. They watched the events of history, especially the life of Jesus, then his passion. At the cross all but humans closed their probation one way or another. However, even though those who choose to be faithful to God learned enough to never ever want to leave him not matter what, and having total trust in him. God is infinite, finite beings are unable to grasp all the knowledge and greatness of God; but we will be learning more and more through out eternity. In the mid-1840s earth had reached a point in history where the ancient world was starting to be re-discovered. This was the opening of a time where we could study the Bible like never before. In ancient though events in heaven and earth reflect each other. This time of deeper investigation of the pages of scripture were met by it's heavenly counterpart of God reviewing with the angels and beings from other worlds the lives of those who claimed to follow him. They see those who claimed to accept him, such as Judas, and see what God tried to do for them and what went wrong. They also see those who claimed to accept him such as Abraham, and what went right. They review the difference Jesus made in the lives of sinners on earth. This gives them a clearer understanding of just how God saves us. And in the process this gives them a clearer picture of how God saved them. This lets there be more light, more of an understanding of God. We will have these mile stones all through out eternity. This is just one of these that corresponded with the events on earth in how say the Rosetta Stone gave the key to understanding strange ancient languages; Edward Robinson's first trip the the Bible lands being published and read, which opened the door to Biblical archaeology, including coming across ancient writings and the culture and increased knowledge of the Bible which can lead to increased knowledge of God; better knowledge of ancient words in more of their richness. And of course the increased spread of knowledge that started with and grew out of the telegraph. The investigative judgment is simply Earth's history reached the changing point described above; and ancient understandings of how events in heaven and earth reflect each other opens not only for humans the chance to get to know God better through what we are learning about the ancient world, but that the heavenly counterpart can get to know God better through learning about first, whether or not we really responded to his workings on our hearts, and thus how he saves us, and this gives them a deeper knowledge of their own salvation and awakens discoveries that lead to knowledge that gives them more love for Christ.
    2 points
  11. GHansen

    The Great Controversy

    Didn't realize people in Vermont were so "slow." They were confused when they received a free book in the mail? Considering all the junk mail people receive, I'd expect them to be happy to receive some non-junk mail. Vermonters must be clever enough to use a trash can. They can put the book there if it offends them. The Great Controversy is a worthwhile book. It's a great introduction to church history and prophecy. Nothing wrong with offering people an alternative to American media and whatever other nonsense interests them. Time would be better spent reading the GC than watching TV. Leslie Hardinge got an idea for his doctoral dissertation by reading the GC. Tragic that so many SDAs despise the gifts in the church, i.e., health message, Conflict series, etc. Those books may not be perfect but they are not a bad place to start.
    2 points
  12. Gregory Matthews

    SDA History

    An Adventist history source has recently been discovered. See: https://www.lakeunionherald.org/archive/articles/unearthing-a-treasure-trove-of-adventist-documents
    2 points
  13. Gregory Matthews

    Change

    Everything Changes is a seminal article worthy of consideration by Adventists everywhere. It may be accessed at the website listed below. NOTE: This issue of Mountain Views contains other articles on this subject that are of value. https://www.rmcsda.org/editorial-everything-changes/
    2 points
  14. Gregory Matthews

    SDAs and Voting

    Politics & Voting for SDAs is considered in the following article by Nathanial Gamble of the Rocky Mountain Conference. https://www.rmcsda.org/voting-is-a-gift/
    2 points
  15. Gregory Matthews

    Tom

    I First met Tom in probably 1959, possibly 1960. After that meeting, we parted and I followed him at a distance. Recently he and I reconnected. Tom presently has a ministry in which he on a regular (perhaps every day) writes short devotional statements. I will quote one of his recent posts at the end of this post. Tom is a unique person. His spiritual journey has had its twists and turns. But, over the many years, he has remained committed to our Lord Jesus Christ. I have decided to invite tom to join with us in posting his devotional comments. Tom does not get into discussions of doctrinal issues. He will not be debating with anyone here. I do not believe that he will make any kind of an extensive response to people who may challenge him on aspects of his understandings of God. He worships on a regular basis across some denominational boundaries. So, I am going to invite Tom to join us. IF any of you would like to welcome Tom, this thread will remain open for comment. The following is a statement from Tom: " My prayer is that the love of Jesus will shine through you and that everyone whose life you touch, whether near or far, will be blessed.
    1 point
  16. Kevin H

    How old was earth BEFORE sin entered?

    In studying the Bible we have hints, evidence and proof. God mostly likes to work with evidence. The phrase translated "Without form and void" indicates a period of time prior to creation week. With this and a few other phrases here and there, including in the writings of Mrs. White, we have at least hints, if not evidence that there was something here for Lucifer, the other angels and other worlds to do things to study out Lucifer's questions. We are not given details about this; but hints and evidence that point to this. Then when the two sides of the great controversy was formed, and when what ever was here turned into complete chaos; that is when the Spirit of God hovered over the chaos and said "Let there be light" both including the physical light; but also announcing that the universe was moving into a new age of learning light about God. So we have an unknown period prior to those special 7 days. Another unknown period after the 7 days when Adam and Eve were working with the garden. Now the text is not as clear as we would like to whether or not Adam and Eve were physically distant or if he was there with her. Mrs. White draws lessons on the idea that they were distant. While she does warn us that her job is to make applications to us today and to NOT use her words for exegesis of the text; the idea of Adam standing there clueless through the conversation seems odd, so I lean in the direction that they has separated. But we have a second unknown leant of time. A third unknown is the time from the fall to different times in history. We tend to read the genealogies through the eyes of western Greek eyes started centuries later. Ancient genealogies, even studies within the Bible, tends to first list the important people, and skip the less important. The text that made Genesis is so old and multi updating's in the language that it is difficult to translate the numbers. We tend to get from 6,000 to 10,000 years from these attempts. And often in history a first born child would be named after a paternal grandfather; and thus two names repeat over several generations, but we get one listing of each name in written genealogies. So we can't get much beyond saying that the earth is young enough for the memory of Adam and Eve and the people listed stayed in human memory. Elder Robert Pierson first wanted the church to become strong proponents of the 6,000 years, but even the theologians who were trying to apply his fundamentalist views had trouble, so he requested them to try not to get much beyond 10,000 to 12,000 years (When I was at the Seminary this conservative group was open to go as far back as 21,000 years).
    1 point
  17. Stan

    Has America Ever Been a “Christian Nation”?

    What exactly is Christian Nationalism? And should I, as a Christian, jump on board with it? Or is it the big, bad wolf that many have made it out to be?View the full article
    1 point
  18. Kevin H

    Has America Ever Been a “Christian Nation”?

    catholic Europe (yes, small "c") your religion tended to be where you were born. In the Middle East and North Africa it became the different groups of Islam; then we had areas that were Eastern Orthodox, Western Roman Catholics, and the Reformed Western Roman Catholics (Protestants); and here and there pockets of Jews which could be kicked out whenever. If you wanted to practice differently from the geography religion where you lived you either had to move or risk being persecuted. As Protestantism broke into more sections, people such as the Puritans came over to the Americas to make a geography for their religion, thus a continuation of catholic Europe. Then Roger Williams bought the state of Rhode Island with a crazy idea of liberty of conscience. William Penn wanted Pennsylvania to be a spot of catholic Europe for Quakers; but could not get enough Quakers to settle the area, so Penn took Roger William's liberty of conscience to Pennsylvania. The idea of liberty of conscience began to spread, especially in the Americas. Now, I don't know the year and if Roger William's thought influenced this, but we also started to see a break away from catholic Europe in the first settlement for Maryland, which had the state religion of Roman Catholic, however, did something very non-Catholic. On the one side of town they had all the public buildings; then you had the homes, and on the other end of town was the church. In the French Revolution, the French tried to make the French religion of catholic Europe to be secular humanism. Originally the first amendment was for no national religion for the whole country, but the states could continue their state churches. There were the ideas of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison to apply Roger Williams liberty of conscience to the whole country. When Jefferson became president people though he was going to come and take their Bibles, so many were hidden. People feared that Jefferson would follow the idea of the French Revolution and that the American religion would be enforced secular humanism. However, as liberty of conscience was implemented, churches came to realize that they had more freedom then ever before when they were paid for by and controlled the state. Liberty of conscience became part of our American freedoms. American became an open market place for religions to share what they have to offer and people out of informed consent choose the religion they found the most reasonable. A nation without king or pope. I never thought of this before; but I just got the idea that maybe we can say that America's traditional religion is Williams/Jefferson/Madison liberty of conscience, as opposed to saying that we are a Christians or a Secular nation. In recent decades there has been a growing trend to either make the United States pre-revolution catholic Europe, Sadly, I've heard that General Flynn made a statement of "One Nation, One Religion". Pushing for Evangelical Christianity to be the national religion. And we are finding others wanting to make the United States a post French Revolution secularism; where only secularism is in the open and your religious beliefs need to be kept to yourself; "Freedom From Religion" thus destroying Jefferson's open marketplace of thought including religion. In the 1800s there were people who were very grounded in the ideas of the American Revolution, especially as applied through the thoughts of Jefferson/Madison, only instead of focusing this on to politics, they focused it on to other aspects of life, including religious people applying this to religion. Before his conversion William Miller was one of these to apply this to other aspects of life, as well as politics. Then came his conversion, and the Adventist ideas that began with Joachim of Fiore, developed through the Franciscans, and Wycliff, influenced the developing Reformation, became an Adventist movement in England in the 1700s (which Sir Isaac Newton was a member) jumped the pond and in the American version this idea became welded in the minds of Miller and others to the ideals of the American Revolution, including Williams/Jefferson/Madison's liberty of conscience, and became Millerism, from which came Seventh-day Adventism. Often we start with Miller, but we would not have had adventism were it not for the ideas of someone like Joachim of Fiore, and Seventh-day Adventism would have looked a lot different were it not for Rogers/Jefferson/Madison as shaped by the age of Jackson. This background of Miller that he had when he embraced Adventism Christianity gave the Seventh-day Adventist church a larger seeing the foundational and critical importance of liberty of conscience. In addition to how those two ideas were welded together in Miller and others of the time; Millerism had influenced many denominations who had creeds that defined their beliefs. As Millerites were thrown out of their many different beloved churches for their love of Adventism as well and thus did not fit the creed; they decided to form a church where instead of a defining creed; they would have a handful of landmarks, but as long as they were not fanatical, they were free to follow the Bible to their understanding. For example, while some religions formed around that time had questions about the trinity, those other churches made their questioning of the trinity a test of fellowship. Although many of our members held similar questions, we did NOT make this a test of fellowship. You were free to become a Seventh-day Adventist whether you were or were not a trinitarian. (Later, the the trinity became the heart of Mrs. White's great controversy philosophy, and as the key to dealing with the 1888 crisis) From time to time we would give a list of beliefs more detailed than the landmarks; but instead of them being a ridged creed defining who we are; these lists were "This is the general neighborhood of beliefs where you will tend to pretty much find us" and these were purposefully written in fairly vague language to be as inclusive as possible. As we formed the 27 (later the 28) our leaders continued this same tradition- however some of them wrote an accompanying book which spelled out in clearer language how they HOPED we would understand the 27, but the vague, flexible 27 was the official and the book the suggested. (As you can guess, I get nervous when there are motions to make the language of the 28 to be made less vague.) What we have seen in this story is an application of Revelation 12, 13 and 14. The dragon in Revelation 12 is the historical chaos monster. The French Revolution's definition of freedom being the absence of law leads to chaos. Spiritualism is that you have your truth and I have mine. The philosophy of Existentialism where truth is defined by your personal existential experience. The first deception of Satan of God is really not God and thus has no right to place a law over us. In Revelation 13 we have a beast that we tend to make the pope, the pope, the pope and the Catholics. But this beast is any organized group that we allow to dictate our beliefs to us. The 7 heads are those ruling over most of God's people from the son of David (Zedekiah) until we are once again ruled over by THE SON of DAVID. These are the 7 periods of reign in place of Christ, or in Greek antichrist. 1) Babylon 2.) Medio-Persia 3.) Greece 4.) Rome 5.) The rule of the church over the middle ages, Clay in the Bible is represents that molded by God; but here the clay is molded by the iron/the state, thus a "Church State" catholic Europe. 6.) The deadly wound/the toes of iron and clay, The crowns are now on 10 horns, not on the 6th head. (Our artists should not divide the horns over all 7 heads. They are during the deadly wound, or 6th head but then shares power with the 7th head). A period of independent nations instead of a great empire, some nations offering more freedom, others more oppressive. Thus the beast is and is not and is yet to come. The beast is still there but is not because it is the deadly wound to the 6th head, but is to come in that it will be healed into the 7th head/attempt for the toes to join together. A 7th head. Later Revelation tells us that the 7th head is different from the previous. The previous ruled through warfare, conquest and power. The 7th head is the 10 horns uniting together under economic cooperation and the merchants of the earth (the corporations) are in power; although the fallen woman is riding her. This beast is a counterfeit God the Father, While to the dragon our existential experience is everything; the beast does not really care about your existential experience. The beast will tell you what to believe and your job is to comply. The lamblike beast is a counterfeit God the Son. God the Son reveals God as our personal friend and brings us into relationship with God the Father. The false prophet tells those who are uncomfortable with how they need to go against something in their conscience to comply to the beast; the false prophet says "It will be to your existential advantage to not worry about your conscience but just comply to the rules of the beast." In Revelation 14 we find a God who is the ultimate truth, but who works with were we are and who we are in our growth and existential situations, but not stopping there, but leads us into deeper and deeper understanding of him who is the way the truth the life. catholic Europe is a good picture of what the beast does. The French Revolution is a good picture of what the dragon is like. The freedom of the American Revolution, especially with Williams/Jefferson/Madison (and adjusted by the age of Jackson) and the early Adventists joining from multi religious backgrounds trying to make a church that has room for all of them, is a picture of the three angels message. The dragon and the beast are fighting to take control of this country. While Satan prefers the ideas of the French Revolution, the demons found it exhausting. They had to develop temptations to each person's situation. They hate us too much to get to know us well enough to cater to us; it is so much easier when you have an organization controlling the masses and deceive many to only a couple of temptations; as they found they were able to do in the ancient religions, in catholic Europe, and in Nazi Germany. And the false prophet gets us to compromise our conscience by telling us that it is to our existential advantage to just go along with the system and to pressure others into complying. People have poked fun at our Seventh-day Adventist picture of persecution. Today it does not seem so strange. Look at all the violence. Attacks especially against those different. Can you imagine how this will be when the state allows it?
    1 point
  19. GHansen

    J H Kellogg & God's Nature

    Gustave, We've been over this before, as I now recall. You read too much into the statements, giving them an authority they don't have. Much of what you post is free of context; consequently, the statements, as you display them are more or less not useful. "When Kellogg accepted the Trinity he destroyed the hominid body of Father God according to Ellen White, which, according to Adventism at the time, was Pantheism." There were definitely issues regarding the Godhead in the denomination. Not a problem for me, probably not for many others who are church members. I'm not sure what you are trying to prove. The developing views on the Godhead among SDA have been known for a long time. Some of the views they held were wrong, just as some of the early views on prophecy were/are wrong. Shouldn't be a shock to anyone. It hadn't been well sorted by 1919. There are still differences of opinion. Some of the current views are probably wrong. This is the official position of the SDA church today: 2. Trinity There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Gen. 1:26; Deut. 6:4; Isa. 6:8; Matt. 28:19; John 3:16 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2) There are individual remarks on the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost which you can read here. Adventist Archives | Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists Some of the remarks you make, I'm not sure if they reflect ignorance, falsehood, a personal agenda or what. Perhaps they reflect eternal truth. Digging around in the SDA doctrinal cemetery is interesting when the subject is right. This particular subject doesn't interest me that much. Trinity (sdanet.org) Why not just state your point, agenda, etc., and move on?
    1 point
  20. Ulunruh

    Investigative Judgement, History

    Cleansing of the sanctuary and the investigative judgement are terms often used for the same event. The two terms help us better understand what it's all about. Like someone suggested earlier, the understanding leans quite heavily on the old testament sanctuary shadows. The ancient Day of Atonement was also known as the day of the cleansing of the sanctuary/temple. With what was the sanctuary/ temple defiled? This is not dealing with mere physical hygienic issues; this is dealing with the principle of being cleansed from sin. Leviticus 16:16 states that this atonement for the holy place must be made because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins, — that is why the Priest must make this atonement for the tabernacle of meeting which stands in the midst. Obviously, the tabernacle has been defiled by the sins of the people, and on the day of atonement, the scriptures clearly state an atonement must be made for the tabernacle itself, it would be cleansed. During the Jewish year, there was an ongoing experience of sins being brought to the temple. The sanctuary needed to be cleansed because of the sins of the people which had been transferred from the confessing sinners upon the sacrificial animals throughout the year, and then transferred into the sanctuary, either by the priest sprinkling the blood, or eating the flesh of the sacrifice. On the day of atonement, an atonement is made for the tabernacle, to cleanse the sanctuary because of these sins accumulated there. The sins of the repentant people were then taken out into the wilderness, while the unrepentant were cut off from the congregation. Hebrews 9:22-23 “Almost all things are by the law purged (#2511) with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. It is therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified (#2511) with these: but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.” So how do we understand this for us today? If we repent and confess our sins. We are forgiven, BECAUSE Christ's blood covers our sin. Psalm 32:1 Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered! Romans 4:7-8“Blessed are they whose lawless acts are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.” Yet those sins have been transferred into the heavenly sanctuary. When those books are opened and the heavenly court is seated (Daniel 7) the first person who comes in is Jesus, the Son of man. He presents our names before the Father see Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." How do we get white robes? Rev. 7:14 They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. So when those books are opened, we may shudder because we have sinned, BUT all who repented and confessed their sins, (If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness 1 John 1:9) will NOT face their sins, for they are covered by Christs blood, their sins will not be counted against that person. They have walked with Christ, they have trusted in Christ's blood to cover their sins,. they have been led by the Holy Spirit. Christ will confess their names before the Father and the Holy Angels and their names will stand in the book of life! The whole universe is watching, millions of angels are watching, to see whose names will remain in the book of life? Who will have their sins blotted out when the sanctuary is cleansed. But others will have their names removed, for their sins are not covered? Why? Because they never responded to God's love, with repentance and confession of sin, so Christ could not cover their sins.
    1 point
  21. Rahab

    3 word devotional

    (N) Psalm 118:7 The Lord taketh my part with them that help me: therefore shall I see my desire upon them that hate me.
    1 point
  22. Rahab

    3 word devotional

    (N) Psalm 118:6 😇 The Lord is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?
    1 point
  23. ReturntoDar

    J H Kellogg & God's Nature

    Two thoughts on this Gustave. The POG issue was paramount to the pionneers and of course to Ellen White. Discussion of his "buttocks" is entirely disrespectful on every level. God, the FATHER of Christ, as the pioneers and Ellen White so firmly believed, is and remains the One True God. As per bible and SOP. The remarkable change that occured dates to 1980, and FB#2. Today, when the bible says, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased", FB#2 says, "That is not actually TRUE." The essence of this is just this: the SDA Church is calling God, the Father of Christ, a liar. LET. THAT. SINK. IN. They have destroyed the personality of God and flat out rejected the bible and SOP statements concerning WHO God actually is. Ask anybody in your local Church today, WHO is God. You will get a variety of answers, some will be very close to Kelloggs take. Our official position is that God is a committee of three. He is a "spirit", a "concept". This is Kellogg, absolutely Kellogg. God is in the flowers, the trees, etc. FB#2 absolutely destroys the personality of God. When you see it (and most won't) you be appalled at what we have done. We are literally saying the bible and Ellen White (THEE Testimony of Jesus Himself) as fundamentally mistaken (read lying). There is no doubt THIS IS the omega doctrine, it is indeed what Ellen White said about it being "most startling". We have destroyed the great sacrifice Christs Father made in allowing His Son to come and die that you might live. There is no issue of greater importance than the POG. Our people, to a large degree don't even know WHO God is. Early Writings: Jesus talking to Ellen White, said He is the express image of His Father. Ellen White said she saw the Father get up from the throne (not His physical body, which was enshrouded in glorious light), step onto a chairiot, move to the Most Holy Place and their He sat down. God, is very real, a body, just like His Son. He, THEY, are "present everywhere", but HOW? By their Holy Spirit, who is without body. Who created the worlds? Ellen White tells us, GOD, the Father of Christ. HOW? THROUGH His Son, who God made to be equal to Himself in all regards. Divine, eternal, yet begotten and brought forth. If you have seen (know of) Jesus, then you have seen (know of) His Father.
    1 point
  24. GHansen

    J H Kellogg & God's Nature

    Got any proof of that?
    1 point
  25. ReturntoDar

    Is Jesus really the Son of God?

    Point of clarification: It looks to me like the majority of anti-trinitarians still believe that "at some point in time" (as many of the pioneers concluded) Jesus was begotten (came into existence). I don't understand how they continue to hold this belief AFTER Ellen White clearly noted that Jesus is eternal, without beginning or end. The anti's are in the ditch on one side of the road, because in essence they ignore the prohpets counsel on this point. On the other hand, the Church is also in the ditch on the other side of the road because they ignore the counsel of the prophet that God is the Father of Christ! You cannot resolve this apparent conflict, it is a matter of faith. The Holy Spirit must be the one to reveal it you (said Jesus to Peter). Christ is eternal and yet begotten of His Father, NOT at "some point" but in "eternity". Just accept it, the secret things belong to God alone.
    1 point
  26. Rahab

    3 word devotional

    (N) 1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 😅
    1 point
  27. ReturntoDar

    J H Kellogg & God's Nature

    Well stated GHansen, it is really very simple. By the way, who is this God that showed Himself to Moses? The one true God or His Son? “Let the missionaries of the cross proclaim that there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, who is Jesus Christ the Son of the Infinite God. This needs to be proclaimed throughout every church in our land.”{Ms40-1891.78} The Bible and EGW say one true God and His Son: 1 Timothy 2:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6, John 17:3, PP, 124.1; ST (Signs) Aug. 12 1889, par.1; Lt12-1893. par. 46. "While we are favorably situated, let us make use of every opportunity to know the one true God, and Jesus Christ whom he hath sent." {YI December 21, 1893, par. 5} God sent us Jesus Christ! Are God and Jesus one? Of course! Not only in agreement on all things, in perfect harmony, but Jesus is literally of the SAME SUBSTANCE of His Father. He was quite literally begotten, of His Father, from whom all things originate. And yet, Jesus IS eternal, the express image of His literal Father in every way.
    1 point
  28. GHansen

    J H Kellogg & God's Nature

    Gustave, If we look at the context of Exodus 33:23, light is shed. Moses asked to see God's glory. God tells him to stand on a rock God then says my hand will cover you while I pass by. You cannot see my face and live. As God passes by, he removes his hand and Moses sees his back. Obvious here what happened. Maybe you suppose God doesn't wear clothes; consequently, Moses would see his buttocks as he saw the rest of his back. A bare buttocks is a sign of disgrace and shame in Scripture. Simple explanation is that Moses was"blindfolded" [hidden by God's hand] until God passed by. The "blindfold" was removed and Moses saw the back of God.
    1 point
  29. Rahab

    3 word devotional

    (N) Proverbs 6:23 📖 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
    1 point
  30. GHansen

    J H Kellogg & God's Nature

    This article says nothing about a buttocks. It quotes Exodus 33:23 which distinguishes the "back parts" from the face. Most versions say "You can see my back but not my face." There is a word for "buttocks" in the Bible and that word is not used in Exodus 33:23. As for Canright's articles, they reflect what he believed at that time and they were printed in the Review. Apparently, others thought they had merit. No matter. The denomination was based upon the error regarding the cleansing of the sanctuary. It was soon after its inception repudiated. Not sure how many SDA would agree with Canright's views of 100+ years ago. I do recall that we had this discussion a while back. Probably, my views are about the same, Neither EGW nor the SDA pioneers necessarily reflect my personal beliefs.
    1 point
  31. Gregory Matthews

    The wife of a pastor.

    For thoughts on the wife of a pastor who did not measure up to expectations, see: https://atoday.org/aunt-sevvy-our-pastors-wife-doesnt-help-out-in-church/ NOTE: I once became the pastor of a congregation a member came to me and expressed hope that my wife would be more available than the previous pastor's wife. I happened to know that she had a serious illness of which the congregation had not been informed.
    1 point
  32. Gregory Matthews

    An Interesting Article

    For an interesting political article see: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/new-mexico-couy-griffin-trump-removed_n_6317876fe4b0faa556c1912d
    1 point
  33. Gregory Matthews

    A List of RL Issues

    With thanks to Religious liberty TV, the following links take you to a variety of articles on such issues that ae of interest--Gregory Matthews. ReligiousLiberty.TV Archives The Countercultural Idea of a Christian University California Judge Rules that Christian Bakery Owner Can Refuse to Make Cakes that Violate Beliefs Indiana Court Upholds Ruling Taking Transgender Child Away from Parents Who Refused on Religious Grounds to Use Preferred Pronouns Federal Court: Pennsylvania Parents of First Graders Can Sue School District for Violating Parental Rights An Urgent Message to the World, Church, American Academia, and Christian Colleges Academic Freedom in Context Alex Jones, PayPal, and Freedom of Speech – An Explainer History in the Baking: Latest Wedding Cake Decision Appealed to Supreme Court Yeshiva University vs. YU Pride Alliance Postal Worker Asks Supreme Court to Hear Workplace Religious Accommodation Case A Christian Response to Moral Chaos Supreme Court to Decide Whether a State Can Compel Artists to Create Art Against Their Will (303 Creative v. Elenis) Texas court’s refusal to get involved in church dispute underscores the need for Alternative Dispute Resolution DOJ sues city for discrimination on behalf of Adventist No more Lemon tree – Supreme Court weakens Establishment Clause protections Prayer as Political Football – Post-Game Analysis of Kennedy v. Bremerton Supreme Court Jeopardizes Unenumerated Rights to Block Abortion Why Maine’s religious schools are likely to decline state funding Count the Cost: The Hidden Dangers of Government Funding of Religious Education Court says Maine Must Pay for Religious Schools: A Trojan Horse for the Culture Wars? Biden admin could hand over US control of health emergencies to WHO next week Statement on the Leak in Dobbs Supreme Court rules 9-0 that Boston violated 1st Amendment in refusing Christian flag at City Hall Active Liberty: A Survey of Justice Stephen Breyer’s Religion Clause Decisions Canadian gov’t calculates that expansion of assisted suicide will save taxpayers millions of dollars Biden admin announces “Disinformation Governance Board” Supreme Court hears argument in football coach post-game prayer case CA bill would make it illegal to investigate deaths of newborns What it Means if Roe v. Wade is Overturned Satanic Temple Sues Company that Refused “Abortion Ritual” Billboard Biden anticipated to nominate Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson for Supreme Court Supreme Court to Decide: Can states force artists to speak contrary to their faith? Russian occupation will harm religious freedom in Ukraine The Pandemic, Vaccination, and the Crisis of Adventist Identity Tonga – Mandatory Sunday Rest Laws and the International Date Line A Concept in Common: Are Sunday Blue Laws Making a Comeback? Copyright (C) 2022 Founders First Freedom.
    1 point
  34. Rahab

    3 word devotional

    (N) Proverbs 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the Lord understand all things. 😅
    1 point
  35. Rahab

    3 word devotional

    (N) Proverbs 29:23 A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit. ✨
    1 point
  36. Gregory Matthews

    The Great Controversy

    I do not consider The Great Controversy to be perfect. It is not the best source of history that is available. However, I consider it to have value in its discussion of salvation and the activity of God in human life. However, I consider it to be ineffective when used in mass mailings and the funds expended are largely wasted. In addition, I believe that such mass mailings result in more negative feelings about SDAs and the message that God has given us to proclaim than Positive feelings. In prior studies of such mailings conversions have been limited to from one to four people. I have written on this in the past, but do not have the citations before me as I write now. In short: The money that we spend in such mailings is better spent in other evangelistic efforts. It sems to me that the people most in favor to such are people who are either not directly involved in evangelism, or are long removed from pastoral care, or simply are going along with the people in power because they do not want to rock the boat.
    1 point
  37. Kevin H

    The Great Controversy

    I really appreciate the line "Those books may not be perfect, but they are not a bad place to start" What is sad is that too many of us expect them to be perfect; and when they are found not to be perfect we either turn away, maybe attacking the book; or we stick our head in the sand and more loudly insist that they are perfect. I love Great Controversy, but I fear that too often the mass mailing is not for her message on religious freedom and the danger of what we today call "Christian Nationalism" and existentialism (spiritualism: You have your truth and I have mine") But that they see it as a book to rub into the reader's face how horrible the Catholics are, and to call glory to the Seventh-day Adventist church. I like the idea of what the article said about maybe starting with Steps to Christ. Another, that I wish our church would publish under one binding to give out is to collect the four chapter, and maybe an article: The Origin of Evil, Why was Sin Permitted (These two chapters cover the same event, and I forgot which one was written first, but one has Mrs. White writing the story with the freshness of learning something new; the other writing after years of maturing and reflecting on the topic. Thus their strong and weak points complement each other.) then maybe the article "God Made Manifest in Christ" followed by the chapter "Gethsemane" These chapters set the background and the setting for what was Mrs. White's greatest essay: It Is Finished from Desire of Ages. These four or five, climaxing with "It is Finished" would not only be a wonderful introduction to our church; but also a powerful stand alone message that people can apply to their own personal background. How I wish they would be printed in a small volume, I'd gladly pass that (and Steps to Christ) along like the leaves of autumn. (I would also like to see someone like Jacques Doukhan make a Jewish sensitive version for our Jewish friends and even for others who don't have a Christian background)
    1 point
  38. Gregory Matthews

    Fake Catholic Newspaper

    In our current partisan election year climate, the following reports on a fake newspaper that attempts to cause people to think it is a Catholic publication. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/partisan-mailer-poses-as-catholic-newspaper-in-arizona/ar-AA13KgS3?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=ccf43131d52c4448bc0225ce23c0dbac
    1 point
  39. Gregory Matthews

    God

    God: For thoughts on God, see: https://atoday.org/is-god-authoritarian-should-we-be-authoritarian/
    1 point
  40. Rahab

    3 word devotional

    (N) Matthew 25:40 👑 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    1 point
  41. Rahab

    3 word devotional

    (N) Psalm 46:2 Therefore will not we fear 🚫, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; 🌊
    1 point
  42. Gregory Matthews

    Tik Tok & Religion

    Losing my religion is a recent theme that has become popular on Tik Tok. While I have not had the time to check the accuracy of the following figure, it has been said that some 22,000 posts have been made on this subject. So, what is my point? If we are to accomplish the mission given to us by God, we must have some understanding of the thinking of the people in the world in which we live.
    1 point
  43. The baker "has established written design standards for all custom bakery items,” which are part of the employee handbook based on the baker’s experience with custom orders." Also, he gives referrals to other bakeries that will make cakes for these. "The bakery, by policy outlined in the linked ruling, also will not make “designs promoting marijuana or casual drug use,” “designs presenting explicit sexual content,” “designs portraying anything offensive, demeaning or violent,” “designs depicting gore, witches, spirits, and satanic or demonic content.” The bakery also explicitly states, “wedding cakes must not contradict God’s sacrament of marriage between a man and a woman.” If a request was received for these designs, the owner arranged for referrals to another local bakery." It is sad that his employees had violated the above on occasion and without his knowledge. This could be a problem later on appeal.
    1 point
  44. Gregory Matthews

    U. S. A Christian Nation?

    U S, A Christian nation: The following 3 research studies by Pew Research reveal some interesting trends in religious thought in the United States. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/10/27/45-of-americans-say-u-s-should-be-a-christian-nation/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/10/27/in-their-own-words-how-americans-describe-christian-nationalism/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/10/27/a-closer-look-at-americans-who-believe-the-u-s-should-be-a-christian-nation/
    1 point
  45. Gregory Matthews

    1,270+ Decisions

    Religious liberty: If this is a subject that interests you, the following link will take you to court decisions on more than 1,270 cases. https://religiousliberty.tv/
    1 point
  46. Parents can sue a Pennsylvania school district that allowed a teacher to tell first graders "secrets" about transgender topics. The post Federal Court: Pennsylvania Parents of First Graders Can Sue School District for Violating Parental Rights appeared first on ReligiousLiberty.TV / Founders' First Freedom®. View the full article
    1 point
  47. Rahab

    3 word devotional

    (N) Psalm 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
    1 point
  48. Rahab

    3 word devotional

    (N) Psalm 30:5 For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.
    1 point
  49. Gregory Matthews

    Adventists & Social/Political Issues

    Social issues & Adventist engagement: Bill Knott, the outgoing editor of the Adventist Review writes and interesting article on Adventists political/social issues of the day. See: https://adventistreview.org/news/adventist-journalists-and-administrators-must-partner-for-mission-editor-says/
    1 point
  50. Rahab

    3 word devotional

    (N) Proverbs 12:2 A good man obtaineth favour of the Lord : but a man of wicked devices will he condemn.
    1 point


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