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  1. 3 points
    Gregory Matthews

    Lutherans & SDAS agree & Unite

    For the past several years a Lutheran congregation in in Brooklyn Park, Minnesota, has owned a building in which a SDA congregation has also worshiped along with the Lutherans. On April 13, 2019, the SDAs assumed ownership of that building. As part of that process, the Lutheran congregation will continue to share in the use of the building. IOW, the building will continuer to be used by both groups for ministry. This agreement included the Minnesota Conference (SDA). For more detail, see the cited reference below. The above information came from: OUTLOOK, June 2019, pages 20 & 21.
  2. 3 points
    B/W Photodude

    Who's fooling who?

    "Rightly dividing" the word of God does not come even by careful reading of it. Which is why Paul stated in 2 Tim 3:7, "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." I have met people that can recite long passages of Scripture and cannot even correctly verbalize the meaning of it. The Pharisees of Jesus's time on earth, were intently studying Scripture looking for the Messiah and did not even recognize Him walking among them. I suspect that the same is even true of EGW's writings. Those who reject the gift given thru her or are other wise critical of what we have been given thru her will not really understand it. So, I would be careful of dismissing things that you don't understand.
  3. 2 points
    Kevin H

    Lutherans & SDAS agree & Unite

    Mrs. White had issues with the idea of her being an inspired interpreter of scripture. She saw her ministry as making application of the message of the Bible, of pointing out neglected portions of scripture, and to point out what was a part of the ancient culture and thus on the minds of the Bible writers and their audience as they wrote and heard and thought about scripture, but which is not a part of our culture and we would not think about had she not told it to us: the issues of the Great Controversy. But when it comes to Biblical interpretation and exegesis she tells us that is OUR job NOT hers. She even seems a bit envious of us and bewildered that people wanted her to interpret scripture. When asked to she would either ignore the request or tell the requester that this is their job not hers. When she heard people using her writings to interpret scripture she wrote things like "My writings are not to be used in answering questions such as 'what is the meaning of the daily?'"
  4. 2 points
    Gregory Matthews

    Lutherans & SDAS agree & Unite

    Among the Adventists who would have a problem with the statement below, would be a woman named Ellen G. White.[/quote] [quote}. . . EGW as an inspired interpreter of Scripture as well.[/quote]
  5. 2 points
    james423

    Lesson 12 - What Have They Seen In Your House?

    Overall Question: What type of witness is your family to the world? Memory Text: 1 Peter 2:9 New Living Translation But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests, a holy nation, God’s very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light. Sunday – Learning from a King’s Mistake 2 Chronicles 32:25 New International Reader’s Version But Hezekiah’s heart was proud. He didn’t give thanks for the many kind things the Lord had done for him. So the Lord became angry with him. He also became angry with Judah and Jerusalem. 2 Chronicles 32:31 Good News Translation and even when the Babylonian ambassadors came to inquire about the unusual event that had happened in the land, God let Hezekiah go his own way only in order to test his character. Isaiah 38 New Century Version At that time Hezekiah became very sick; he was almost dead. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to see him and told him, “This is what the Lord says: Make arrangements, because you are not going to live, but die.” 2 Hezekiah turned toward the wall and prayed to the Lord, 3 “Lord, please remember that I have always obeyed you. I have given myself completely to you and have done what you said was right.” Then Hezekiah cried loudly. 4 Then the Lord spoke his word to Isaiah: 5 “Go to Hezekiah and tell him: ‘This is what the Lord, the God of your ancestor David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears. So I will add fifteen years to your life. 6 I will save you and this city from the king of Assyria; I will defend this city. 7 “‘The Lord will do what he says. This is the sign from the Lord to show you: 8 The sun has made a shadow go down the stairway of Ahaz, but I will make it go back ten steps.’” So the shadow made by the sun went back up the ten steps it had gone down. 9 After Hezekiah king of Judah got well, he wrote this song: 10 I said, “I am in the middle of my life. Do I have to go through the gates of death? Will I have the rest of my life taken away from me?” 11 I said, “I will not see the Lord in the land of the living again. I will not again see the people who live on the earth. 12 Like a shepherd’s tent, my home has been pulled down and taken from me. I am finished like the cloth a weaver rolls up and cuts from the loom. In one day you brought me to this end. 13 All night I cried loudly. Like a lion, he crushed all my bones. In one day you brought me to this end. 14 I cried like a bird and moaned like a dove. My eyes became tired as I looked to the heavens. Lord, I have troubles. Please help me.” 15 What can I say? The Lord told me what would happen and then made it happen. I have had these troubles in my soul, so now I will be humble all my life. 16 Lord, because of you, people live. Because of you, my spirit also lives; you made me well and let me live. 17 It was for my own good that I had such troubles. Because you love me very much, you did not let me die but threw my sins far away. 18 People in the place of the dead cannot praise you; those who have died cannot sing praises to you; those who die don’t trust you to help them. 19 The people who are alive are the ones who praise you. They praise you as I praise you today. A father should tell his children that you provide help. 20 The Lord saved me, so we will play songs on stringed instruments in the Temple of the Lord all the days of our lives. 21 Then Isaiah said, “Make a paste from figs and put it on Hezekiah’s boil. Then he will get well.” 22 Hezekiah then asked Isaiah, “What will be the sign? What will show that I will go up to the Temple of the Lord?” Isaiah 39 New Century Version At that time Merodach-Baladan son of Baladan was king of Babylon. He sent letters and a gift to Hezekiah, because he had heard that Hezekiah had been sick and was now well. 2 Hezekiah was pleased and showed the messengers what was in his storehouses: the silver, gold, spices, expensive perfumes, his swords and shields, and all his wealth. He showed them everything in his palace and in his kingdom. 3 Then Isaiah the prophet went to King Hezekiah and asked him, “What did these men say? Where did they come from?” Hezekiah said, “They came from a faraway country—from Babylon.” 4 So Isaiah asked him, “What did they see in your palace?” Hezekiah said, “They saw everything in my palace. I showed them all my wealth.” 5 Then Isaiah said to Hezekiah: “Listen to the words of the Lord All-Powerful: 6 ‘In the future everything in your palace and everything your ancestors have stored up until this day will be taken away to Babylon. Nothing will be left,’ says the Lord. 7 Some of your own children, those who will be born to you, will be taken away, and they will become servants in the palace of the king of Babylon.” 8 Hezekiah told Isaiah, “These words from the Lord are good.” He said this because he thought, “There will be peace and security in my lifetime.” Monday – Family First John 1:40-42 New English Translation 40 Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter, was one of the two disciples who heard what John said and followed Jesus. 41 He first found his own brother Simon and told him, “We have found the Messiah!” (which is translated Christ). 42 Andrew brought Simon to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon, the son of John. You will be called Cephas” (which is translated Peter). Deuteronomy 6:6-7 Holman Christian Standard Bible 6 These words that I am giving you today are to be in your heart. 7 Repeat them to your children. Talk about them when you sit in your house and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Ruth 1:14-18 (see below) Ruth 1:8-22 Contemporary English Version 8 Naomi said to them, “Don’t you want to go back home to your own mothers? You were kind to my husband and sons, and you have always been kind to me. I pray that the Lord will be just as kind to you. 9 May he give each of you another husband and a home of your own.” Naomi kissed them. They cried 10 and said, “We want to go with you and live among your people.” 11 But she replied, “My daughters, why don’t you return home? What good will it do you to go with me? Do you think I could have more sons for you to marry? 12 You must go back home, because I am too old to marry again. Even if I got married tonight and later had more sons, 13 would you wait for them to become old enough to marry? No, my daughters! Life is harder for me than it is for you, because the Lord has turned against me.” 14 They cried again. Orpah kissed her mother-in-law good-by, but Ruth held on to her. 15 Naomi then said to Ruth, “Look, your sister-in-law is going back to her people and to her gods! Why don’t you go with her?” 16 Ruth answered, “Please don’t tell me to leave you and return home! I will go where you go, I will live where you live; your people will be my people, your God will be my God. 17 I will die where you die and be buried beside you. May the Lord punish me if we are ever separated, even by death!” 18 When Naomi saw that Ruth had made up her mind to go with her, she stopped urging her to go back. 19 They reached Bethlehem, and the whole town was excited to see them. The women who lived there asked, “Can this really be Naomi?” 20 Then she told them, “Don’t call me Naomi any longer! Call me Mara, because God has made my life bitter. 21 I had everything when I left, but the Lord has brought me back with nothing. How can you still call me Naomi, when God has turned against me and made my life so hard?” 22 The barley harvest was just beginning when Naomi and Ruth, her Moabite daughter-in-law, arrived in Bethlehem. Tuesday – Peace That Wins 1 Corinthians 7:12-15 Common English Bible 12 I’m telling everyone else (the Lord didn’t say this specifically): If a believer has a wife who doesn’t believe, and she agrees to live with him, then he shouldn’t divorce her. 13 If a woman has a husband who doesn’t believe and he agrees to live with her, then she shouldn’t divorce him. 14 The husband who doesn’t believe belongs to God because of his wife, and the wife who doesn’t believe belongs to God because of her husband. Otherwise, your children would be contaminated by the world, but now they are spiritually set apart. 15 But if a spouse who doesn’t believe chooses to leave, then let them leave. The brother or sister isn’t tied down in these circumstances. God has called you to peace. 1 Peter 3:1-2 Easy-to-Read Version In the same way, you wives should be willing to serve your husbands. Then, even those who have refused to accept God’s teaching will be persuaded to believe because of the way you live. You will not need to say anything. 2 Your husbands will see the pure lives that you live with respect for God. Wednesday – Family Life Is for Sharing 1 Corinthians 4:16 Common English Bible so I encourage you to follow my example. Ephesians 5:1 The Living Bible Follow God’s example in everything you do just as a much-loved child imitates his father. 1 Thessalonians 1:6 Contemporary English Version So, when you accepted the message, you followed our example and the example of the Lord. You suffered, but the Holy Spirit made you glad. Hebrews 6:12 God’s Word Translation Then, instead of being lazy, you will imitate those who are receiving the promises through faith and patience. Hebrews 13:7 Good News Translation Remember your former leaders, who spoke God's message to you. Think back on how they lived and died, and imitate their faith. 3 John 11 New International Version Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God. Jeremiah 17:9 New English Translation The human mind is more deceitful than anything else. It is incurably bad. Who can understand it? John 2:25 New Life Version He did not need anyone to tell Him about man. He knew what was in man. Romans 3:23 English Standard Version for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God Thursday – Centers of Contagious Friendliness Isaiah 58:6-7 Easy-to-Read Version 6 “I will tell you the kind of day I want—a day to set people free. I want a day that you take the burdens off others. I want a day when you set troubled people free and you take the burdens from their shoulders. 7 I want you to share your food with the hungry. I want you to find the poor who don’t have homes and bring them into your own homes. When you see people who have no clothes, give them your clothes! Don’t hide from your relatives when they need help.” Isaiah 58:10-12 New Living Translation 10 Feed the hungry, and help those in trouble. Then your light will shine out from the darkness, and the darkness around you will be as bright as noon. 11 The Lord will guide you continually, giving you water when you are dry and restoring your strength. You will be like a well-watered garden, like an ever-flowing spring. 12 Some of you will rebuild the deserted ruins of your cities. Then you will be known as a rebuilder of walls and a restorer of homes. Romans 12:13 New Century Version Share with God’s people who need help. Bring strangers in need into your homes. 1 Peter 4:9 Modern English Version Show hospitality to one another without complaining. Abraham - Genesis 18:1-8 New International Reader’s Version The Lord appeared to Abraham near the large trees of Mamre. Abraham was sitting at the entrance to his tent. It was the hottest time of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. So he quickly left the entrance to his tent to greet them. He bowed low to the ground. 3 He said, “My lord, if you are pleased with me, don’t pass me by. 4 Let me get you some water. Then all of you can wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat to give you strength. Then you can go on your way. I want to do this for you now that you have come to me.” “All right,” they answered. “Do as you say.” 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick!” he said. “Get about 36 pounds of the finest flour. Prepare it and bake some bread.” 7 Then he ran over to the herd. He picked out a choice, tender calf. He gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 Then he brought some butter and milk and the calf that had been prepared. He served them to the three men. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree. Rebekah – Genesis 24:15-20 Holman Christian Standard Bible 5 Before he had finished speaking, there was Rebekah—daughter of Bethuel son of Milcah, the wife of Abraham’s brother Nahor—coming with a jug on her shoulder. 16 Now the girl was very beautiful, a young woman who had not known a man intimately. She went down to the spring, filled her jug, and came up. 17 Then the servant ran to meet her and said, “Please let me have a little water from your jug.” 18 She replied, “Drink, my lord.” She quickly lowered her jug to her hand and gave him a drink. 19 When she had finished giving him a drink, she said, “I’ll also draw water for your camels until they have had enough to drink.” 20 She quickly emptied her jug into the trough and hurried to the well again to draw water. She drew water for all his camels Genesis 24:31-33 New Century Version 31 Laban said, “Sir, you are welcome to come in; you don’t have to stand outside. I have prepared the house for you and also a place for your camels.” 32 So Abraham’s servant went into the house. After Laban unloaded the camels and gave them straw and food, he gave water to Abraham’s servant so he and the men with him could wash their feet. 33 Then Laban gave the servant food, but the servant said, “I will not eat until I have told you why I came.” So Laban said, “Then tell us.” Zacchaeus – Luke 19:1-9 New Living Translation Jesus entered Jericho and made his way through the town. 2 There was a man there named Zacchaeus. He was the chief tax collector in the region, and he had become very rich. 3 He tried to get a look at Jesus, but he was too short to see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree beside the road, for Jesus was going to pass that way. 5 When Jesus came by, he looked up at Zacchaeus and called him by name. “Zacchaeus!” he said. “Quick, come down! I must be a guest in your home today.” 6 Zacchaeus quickly climbed down and took Jesus to his house in great excitement and joy. 7 But the people were displeased. “He has gone to be the guest of a notorious sinner,” they grumbled. 8 Meanwhile, Zacchaeus stood before the Lord and said, “I will give half my wealth to the poor, Lord, and if I have cheated people on their taxes, I will give them back four times as much!” 9 Jesus responded, “Salvation has come to this home today, for this man has shown himself to be a true son of Abraham.
  6. 2 points
    JoeMo

    Lutherans & SDAS agree & Unite

    Good for them! One of the SDA churches I attend rents the chapel in a Presbyterian Church. Their reason - they have more resources to give to the community and church if they don't have to pay for building and maintaining a stand-alone church.
  7. 2 points
    Gregory Matthews

    Variations in SDA Belief

    Ah, your recent post give credence to your selection of "Aliensanctuary" as the name under which you post.
  8. 2 points
    Gregory Matthews

    A chill coming in American culture

    I have just read the long comment as to what a proposed bill would actually do: * To force hospitals and physicians to do sex reassignment surgery against their will is simply false and a failure to understand the present health-care system. Hospitals may limit their services. Some hospitals do not do labor and delivery. Some hospitals do not have an Emergency department. All such is allowed. * I once lived in a culture where males and females freely went into the others bathroom. * I worked my way through the Seminary at Andrews University by cleaning bathrooms in the college. I quickly learned that the female college students were not going to stay out of the bathrooms when I was cleaning them. [NOTE: I normally did my bathroom cleaning in the evening after most classes were finished.] I got used to it. I did not bother the women and they did not bother me. * In commercial activities, one should not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. IOW, if you are a photographer who takes wedding photographs, you should not be allowed to discriminate against same sex weddings. If however, you are a photographer who does not do wedding photographs, you should not be required to photograph any wedding.
  9. 1 point
    Gustave

    Variations in SDA Belief

    Nice to see other Star Trek aficionados!
  10. 1 point
    phkrause

    Trivia

    5 Things You Didn't Know About The Movie "Psycho" On June 16, 1960, Alfred Hitchcock‘s legendary movie Psycho had its world premiere at the DeMille Theatre in New York City. Here are five crazy facts you probably didn't know about Alfred Hitchcock's "Psycho"... The Shower Scene Was Supposed to Be Silent The shrieking music that will forever accompany Janet Leigh's screams in the shower weren't supposed to be there originally. Hitchcock wanted the scene to be silent except for screams and the stabbing sound (made by stabbing a melon -- and they actually tested stabbing melons until they found the one that had the right sound). However, the film's composer came up with a score anyway, and Hitchcock liked it so much that not only did he use it, but he also doubled the salary for the composer. Major Media Outlets Spoiled the Movie's End Before the Film Was Released And you thought Game of Thrones spoilers discussed after the show ended were bad. Imagine if you had taken every step possible to hide the outcome of your upcoming film only to have major papers spoil everything six months before the film's release! This happened with Psycho — in January 1960, the Hollywood Reporter managed to give away the ending, and five months later, Variety followed suit. All this despite Hitchcock banning reporters, using fake film names, and swearing the cast and crew to secrecy. Norman Bates of Psycho Shares a Common Origin With Other Murder/Slasher Films The movie script for Psycho was based on the novel by Robert Bloch, but the character of Norman Bates was not a complete work of fiction. Bates was based partially on Ed Gein, who confessed to two murders but was suspected of many more, not the least because his house was filled with items like clothes made from human skin. (Bloch later said in an interview that it was more the idea that this gruesome killer could be a neighbor with no one knowing any better that inspired Norman Bates.) Gein was also the influence for the killers in The Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Silence of the Lambs. Are You Always on Time for a Movie? Thank Alfred Hitchcock and Psycho Because the key murder in the film takes place fairly quickly, Hitchcock knew that anyone arriving very late would end up asking about Janet Leigh and why they didn't see her in the film. To prevent this, he demanded that theaters not let people in after the film started. That sounds pretty normal now, but back then, it was normal to show up at whatever time and just keep watching. Hitchcock's requirement that everyone be seated before the film began changed how people treated filmgoing. Psycho's Use of Black-and-White Film Was a Key Part of the Film's Existence Hitchcock filmed Psycho in black and white for two reasons. One, the film was cheaper to use; while color was prevalent by 1960, it was still more expensive, and Hitchcock needed to lower costs. But the really important reason was that, by making the film and thus the shower scene black and white, the blood in the shower wouldn't be bright red -- and that was a crucial part of getting the film past censors. The scene was already extremely violent for its time (and it remains one of the most violent movie murders), and putting it in color would have made the censors bin the film.
  11. 1 point
    dgrimm60

    Happy Father's Day

    HEY ALL FATHERS today JUNE 16 2019 is Father's Day ==== I hope all the Father's enjoy and have a wonderful day dgrimm60
  12. 1 point
    dgrimm60

    Happy Father's Day

    HEY ALL this JUNE 16 , 2019 is Father's Day dgrimm60
  13. 1 point
    phkrause

    Trivia

    5 Things You Didn't Know About The Price Is Right On June 15, 2007, Bob Barker ended his 35-year run as the host of The Price Is Right, the CBS game show where audience members were chosen to guess the prices of various items. Here are five things you didn't know about television's longest-running game show... Hair Color Proved to Be an Unexpected Boost There's a lot of pressure to appear younger in Hollywood, but it's not always due to a fear of age. Earlier television cameras, even when color TV was already the norm, weren't that good at picking up certain colors. Gray hair posed a problem because it looked like no hair when it was in patches. Barker had started going gray at the temples and noted that he looked like he simply didn't have hair there, so execs had him dye his hair. At one point, he went on vacation from both the show and the hair dye and found that people around him preferred the gray color. He managed to get the OK from showrunners to stop dyeing his hair, much to his happiness and the apparent delight of the home audience, one of whom wrote in that Barker's sudden change in hair color must have been due to one really adventurous night. The People Chosen to Be Participants Aren't Totally Random Draws t's pretty well-known that people sit in the audience on the show in order to get a chance to have their name called. But it's not that well-known, at least to those who have never tried to be in the audience, that the name draws aren't totally random. Everyone in the audience is screened, first when they're in line to get in — a man named Stan Blits greets each person and gives his assistant a code word if he thinks someone in line is a real contender. Then when the show starts, Blits and crew observe the people they met in line and further narrow down the list of names they're likely to call. Blits has said he wants to see enthusiasm, so people who are energetic in line but then quiet all the time in the audience drop off the list. You Could Technically Lose Cash by Winning Anyone who has ever won a contest in the United States will know why winning on the show could be a money-losing event: In the U.S., you have to pay taxes on any winnings, even if the winnings themselves aren't cash. So if you win a $20,000 car, you have to fork out the tax money on $20,000 worth of automobile. If you already don't have a lot of money, that could be difficult to swing. The show sends out a letter first, detailing the taxes you need to pay before you get your prizes. There Was a Wardrobe Malfunction. Was there ever a wardrobe malfunction, unfortunately. A woman in the audience was called up to the stage and became so excited that her tube top fell. OK, that statement about how the show is expecting enthusiasm? If you're going to get that enthusiastic, be sure your clothing is on very securely. One Model's Life Was Forever Changed by the Show — and Not in a Good Way One of the models who worked on the show, Janice Pennington, was knocked over by a camera on set. She fell into the audience and had to undergo surgery that left her with visible physical changes. She remained on the show for several years after that but could not wear the swimsuit that had been her show "uniform" for years. She was eventually fired from the show, though not because of the accident or its effects; there had been a wrongful termination suit against the show, and Pennington gave a deposition in favor of the model suing the show.
  14. 1 point
    GHansen

    Lutherans & SDAS agree & Unite

    Church scholars would say that Calvinism doesn't reflect the theology of Calvin, that Lutheranism doesn't reflect the theology of Luther and, as you say, Adventism doesn't reflect the thought of EGW i.e., regardless of what EGW herself thought or said, she has become a de facto "inspired interpreter of Scripture." Difficult to understand just how she evolved into that. During the controversy over the law in Galatians, she was unable to even give her opinion of the matter because she couldn't find the manuscript recording what God had "showed" her. She despaired over the use of her writings during her lifetime, as she saw how they were abused and misunderstood. Whatever Lutheranism has become today, at ground level, comparing EGW with Luther, each had a different emphasis. For Luther, justification by faith was the center of his message. For EGW, sanctification was her burden, which explains how the door was open to perfectionism/LGT, a teaching eschewed by Luther. EGW explained that Luther considered the Second Advent hundreds of years away; therefore he couldn't have prepared people for the Second Advent. Problem with that is that Luther didn't teach that, at least not consistently. His "Sermon on the Last Days" is replete with examples from contemporary times indicating the nearness of the Second Advent. As long as the Lutheran/SDA alliance remains superficial and convenient, there shouldn't be a problem.
  15. 1 point
    Kevin H

    Lutherans & SDAS agree & Unite

    I remember reading where Mrs. White talked in glowing terms about a Seventh-day Adventist church who allowed a Presbyterian congregation to use the church as well. I think she would be very pleased with this.
  16. 1 point
    Rahab

    3 word devotional

    Bring no fruit 🍇🍎🍉 Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
  17. 1 point
    Gregory Matthews

    Canturbury Medalist

    Chaplain Barry Black has been named the 2019 Canterbury Medalist: https://www.becketlaw.org/about-us/canterbury-medal-gala/2019-canterbury-medal-gala/ https://www.nadadventist.org/news/us-senate-chaplain-barry-black-named-2019-canterbury-medalist
  18. 1 point
    news

    The Disciples in Gethsemane and the Courtyard (13:6)

    Later that evening, Peter, James and John went with Jesus into the inner part of the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus went there to pass through the awesome experience of separation from His Father. This would answer a couple of questions, “Does sin result in death?” Yes, but what kind of death? “Is it torture and […] The post The Disciples in Gethsemane and the Courtyard (13:6) appeared first on Jon Paulien's Blog. View the full article
  19. 1 point
    Gregory Matthews

    Lutherans & SDAS agree & Unite

    My understanding is that this is more than just renting out to another group.
  20. 1 point
    dgrimm60

    Lutherans & SDAS agree & Unite

    GREGORY thank you for posting this it is good to see S.D.A. churches helping other church groups===== I have lived in many different states and towns====and several of these S.D.A. churches rented out the church to other church group dgrimm60
  21. 1 point
    JoeMo

    Who's fooling who?

    Yes; but there are many difficult passages in scripture that she doesn't address. Furthermore, I agree that what she wrote made sense for her day and age; but things have changed in the past 150 years. For example, she had every reason to think the papacy/RCC was the beast/antichrist/whore (or all 3!!!); because the RCC was generally perceived as a threat back then; and there were many existing laws and proposals for Sunday Laws and Blue Laws back then. A national Sunday Law is the furthest thing from my mind with today's signs of the times. I think it's time to worry about all Christians (including SDA's) being persecuted, marginalized, and made irrelevant by the increasingly secular humanistic globalist movement.
  22. 1 point
    phkrause

    Trivia

    5 Things You Didn't Know About The Berlin Wall_2 On June 12, 1987, President Ronald Reagan delivered a speech in West Berlin in which he challenged Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev to tear down the Berlin Wall. To mark the anniversary of Reagan's powerful Cold War speech, here are 5 things you didn't know about the Berlin Wall.. The Wall Fell by Mistake At a 1989 press conference held by a member of the politburo in East Germany, it was announced that there would be a lifting of restrictions on travel visas that would start right away. However, he misspoke because East Germans would still have to go through the process of visa applications, which was lengthy. Erroneous reports that the border crossings had been opened led to thousands of people showing up, and the head duty officer, overwhelmed, opened the crossing and soon the others followed suit. The Berlin Wall Was Really Two Walls Those who are unfamiliar with the Berlin Wall may not realize that it was actually two walls that were 27 miles long and separated East and West Berlin. The two high walls had a wide “death strip” in between them, which contained watchtowers, guard dogs, trip-wire machine guns, floodlights and anti-vehicle trenches. If someone did manage to get over the first wall, it wasn’t an easy task to cross over to the other wall and make it over that one to the other side. Thousands of People Escaped from East Germany Over the Years A young East German border guard, Corporal Conrad Schumann, was the first person to escape from East Germany two days after the border was originally sealed. Some escapees made it through by using the sewers, some dug tunnels and others hid in vehicles driven by visitors. Over the years, an is estimated 5,000 people made it into West Berlin and freedom. A Church Was Located in the Death Zone The only building that wasn’t destroyed inside the death zone was the Church of Reconciliation, although it was abandoned because its parishioners could not reach it to attend services anymore. Deciding that the church obscured the view from the watchtowers, it was intentionally destroyed in 1985, and a new building was constructed in its place. Thousands of Guard Dogs Patrolled Inside Patrolling “wall dogs” were used to help secure the “death strip,” and estimates mention between 6,000 and 10,000 animals that were tethered to 16-foot chains. It isn’t surprising that German shepherds were most popular, although Great Danes, Rottweilers and other breeds were used. The dogs were generally not used to attack attempted escapees but to keep them at bay until guards arrived.
  23. 1 point
    JoeMo

    Who's fooling who?

    hch, Why the sad emoji? Do you think EGW is an absolute essential in understanding scripture? You quote her and refer to her more than the Bible. Don't you think relying on her to explain the gospel to the world is a little cultish? Isn't God's word clear enough? How much stuff about popes, Mike Pence, and alleged RCC abominations is necessary to know in order to be saved? I have said earlier, I do read EGW. I accept what I can verify in scripture; a hold in abeyance things I can't verify or reject in scripture, and I reject everything that she says which is in conflict with scripture. I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater; just doubting (or rejecting) some of the stuff she says - just like I do with other inspired writings that I study. For example, Billy Graham had many amazing and inspiring things to say; but I reject his idea that we got straight to heaven or hell when we die; because the Bible says just the opposite.
  24. 1 point
    phkrause

    Stolen Hearts

    Marvin and Shirley Applebaum were childhood sweethearts who had married and settled down in the same neighborhood where they grew up. They were celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary and decided to walk down the street to their old school. There, they hold hands as they find the old desk they 'd shared and where he had carved "I love you, Shirley." On their way back home, a bag of money falls out of an armored car and lands practically at their feet. Shirley quickly picks it up and decides to take it home until they decide what to do with it. There, she counts the money, and it's fifty thousand dollars. Marvin says, "We've got to give it back." Shirley says, "Finders keepers" and puts the money back in the bag and hides it up in their attic. The next day, two FBI men are going door-to-door in the neighborhood looking for the money and show up at their home. They say, "Pardon me, but did either of you find or know about some money that fell out of an armored car yesterday?" Shirley says, "No." Marvin quickly interjects, "She's lying!! She hid it up in the attic." Shirley says, "Don't believe him, he's getting senile." However, the agents sit Marvin down and begin to question him. "Sir, please tell us the story from the beginning." Marvin says, "Well, when Shirley and I were walking home from school yesterday..." The FBI agents immediately look at each other and say, "Let's get out of here!!"
  25. 1 point
    phkrause

    Say Cheese!

    The children at the Talmud Torah had all been photographed, and their teacher Mrs. Crohn was trying to persuade them each to buy a copy of the group picture. "Just think how nice it will be to look at it when you are all grown up and say, 'There's Sarah; she's a lawyer,' or 'That's Michael, he's a doctor.'" Little Moishie Meisleman shouted from the back of the room, "And there's the teacher Mrs. Crohn; she's at Pardes Shalom Cemetery."
  26. 1 point
    Rahab

    3 word devotional

    Receive the Word 📖 Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
  27. 1 point
    JPETER

    jesus said there will not be marriage in the new earth

    thank you as humans we have these finite minds trying to figure out infinte things like when we pour some soda on an ant hill the poor ants dont havve a clue what is happening while there are good and evil side effects some ants dye instantly and others enjoy the sugar we need to enjoy gods sugar if you will grace mercy forgiveness etc although the bible is full of evil acts the one sacrifice at calvary makes up for all of it what ever is true and lovely think on these things JESUS crucifixition was evil but his love was lovely agape love that will live on for all eternity enough rambling bye bye
  28. 1 point
    JoeMo

    Compassion Fatigue

    Trying to be compassionate with all the worthy causes out there is in addition to trying to provide compassionate care for aging or disabled family members - some of whom don't appreciate (or even want) the care and concern.
  29. 1 point
    phkrause

    Compassion Fatigue

    Not any different than you! Actually a lot of times I feel bad I don't have any money in my pockets to give!!
  30. 1 point
    Gregory Matthews

    Sexual Abuse

    All major denominations have faced issues of sexual abuse, to include the SDA denomination. The following website is an informative discussion of such a case that did not occur in a SDA congregation. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/her-evangelical-megachurch-was-her-world-then-her-daughter-said-she-was-molested-by-a-minister/ar-AACEPNX?ocid=spartandhp
  31. 1 point
    phkrause

    Trivia

    5 Surprising Facts You Didn't Know About D-Day On June 6, 1944, Allied forces landed on Normandy Beach in what became known as D-Day. Here are 5 shocking facts you didn’t know about this turning point in World War II... There Has Never Been a Larger Military Operation Than the Normandy Landing Initially, three divisions were planned to land at Normandy, but that number eventually grew to be much larger, with 39 Allied divisions committing to the invasion at the beach in France. By the close of the invasion on June 11, 326,547 Allied troops had landed, along with 104,328 tons of supplies and 54,186 vehicles. This made it the biggest single operation in history. The Plans For the Invasion Were Almost Leaked to the Public Secrecy was important during the planning of the D-Day invasion, so word would not get back to the Germans, but the news almost leaked out, not once but twice. During the summer before the invasion, a copy of the early plan sailed out an open window in Westminster, England, but was fortunately found by a passing man and returned. On June 3, only three days before the invasion, a London teletype operator wrote up a fake invasion news release as practice for the real thing, and it was picked up by AP and announced over 500 U.S. radio stations, but the news was corrected two minutes later. One American Paratrooper Got Stuck on a Church Spire for Two Hours One unlucky paratrooper, among the 15,000 who landed at Sainte-Mere-Eglise around midnight on the first day, became stuck when his parachute got caught on the spire of a church. The paratrooper, John Steele, hung from the spire for about two hours and pretended to be dead so the Germans would not capture him. He was rescued by Allied forces about two hours later, and since then, a dummy paratrooper has been a permanent decoration on that church’s spire. A Pigeon Named Gustav Brought the First Report of the Landing Gustav was the name of one of the homing pigeons used by the RAF to transmit messages during the Normandy invasion, and he carried the first landing report. While this might sound a little primitive, homing pigeons were so important to the war effort that predator birds were culled to make the skies safer for them. For his service, Gustav was awarded the PDSA Dickin Medal, along with three other pigeons and Brian the dog, for their devotion to duty and conspicuous gallantry. A Ghost Army Was Used to Deceive the Germans The Germans knew that an invasion was planned, but they didn’t know where, and an elaborate ruse was put into operation so they would think the attack would be at Calais. A ghost army of rubber airplanes, inflatable tanks, vehicles and camps was built in Essex and Kent to throw them off, somewhat like the Trojan horse. It worked so well that the Ghost Army ruse was used more than 20 times between 1944 and 1945.
  32. 1 point
    phkrause

    Trivia

    5 Things You Didn't Know About Bobby Kennedy_2 On June 5, 1968, Bobby Kennedy was assassinated by Sirhan Sirhan at the Ambassador Hotel. Despite his premature death, he remains a major figure in U.S. culture and politics. Here are five surprising facts you probably didn't know about Bobby Kennedy... He Failed Third Grade Robert Francis Kennedy, the seventh child of Joseph P. and Rose Kennedy, was constantly changing schools, partially because his father was a U.S. ambassador. He went to 12 different schools during primary and secondary, both in London and the United States. He failed third grade, but eventually got on track academically. After he graduated from secondary school, he attended Harvard and graduated from law school at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville. Kennedy Was Involved in Several Bar Brawls Kennedy may have been referred to as the runt of the family, but he got into his first bar fight at 21 when he hit someone over the head with a beer bottle. When working as a Senate lawyer at age 30, he got into a fistfight with a drunk at a bar. After asking the man to take it outside, he struck him in the face and broke the man’s nose. He Reached the 14,000-Foot Summit of Mount Kennedy Kennedy was not an avid rock climber, but he was the first to climb the 14,000-foot Mt. Kennedy in the Canadian Yukon, which had been named for his assassinated brother. During the 1965 ascent, he left the climbing team he was with, including his brother, Ted; he reached the top first, planting a flag there. Brother Ted, who months before had survived a plane crash, pointed out that he himself had scaled the Matterhorn. Kennedy’s Hobby Was Stamp Collecting When Kennedy was 11, he began collecting stamps and received a gift of stamps in an album from then-President Franklin Roosevelt. Roosevelt also sent him a letter, which invited Kennedy to see his stamp collection if he came to Washington. Kennedy responded to the gift by saying that he liked both the stamps and album and would like to see FDR’s collection. Both of the letters are preserved at the National Archives. Kennedy Debated With Ronald Reagan and Lost Kennedy was a seasoned debater and Reagan a rookie when they debated about America’s image and the world’s youth on May 15, 1967 on CBS News. However, Reagan’s knowledge and personable way of speaking made him the clear winner, which Kennedy himself acknowledged. He reportedly told his aides to never schedule him to debate Reagan again.
  33. 1 point
    news

    The Paralytic at the Pool of Bethesda (13:4)

    Jesus had a similar (to the woman taken in adultery—John 8:3-11) encounter with the paralytic at the pool of Bethesda. The paralytic had been trying for thirty-eight years to find healing in the water of the pool. One Sabbath afternoon he looked up, and the kindest face he had ever seen looked back at him […] The post The Paralytic at the Pool of Bethesda (13:4) appeared first on Jon Paulien's Blog. View the full article
  34. 1 point
    Kevin H

    When Was Jesus Crucified?

    The Lord could have come err this. May I recommend the chapter in the SDA Bible Commentary "The Role of Israel in Old Testament History." This is a very important article we were encouraged to read in Academy, but at college it was required reading with a paper for every semester you took a Bible class (which meant that religion and theology students had to do it every semester).We have been so influenced by Fundamentalists that has such a narrow view of inspiration that we miss a lot of the message of the Bible. There are three ways we find the Bible used by other Bible writers and prophets. The first is exegesis, or it's immediate context including how God was giving that generation either the chance to finish the work (by spreading the Gospel) or to prepare things so that a generation or two later could have finished and the Lord could have set up the kingdom. For example we have in Isaiah 7 God trying to encourage the king to trust in him. He was worried about two kings. Isaiah gave a promise of a child. Matthew said that this was a prediction of Jesus. But it sounds a little crazy for Isaiah to say to the king "I know you are worried about these two kings, but in about 500 years a child will be born and before he knows right from wrong those two kings will no longer be an issue, so all you need to do is trust God and wait 500 years." Isaiah was talking about a child born in his day (but even so he was applying the child of promise that was given to Abraham, and which we can reapply to Jesus). There is a second principle of analogy, applying the principles to another similar situation. This is what Matthew is doing. This is what we do when we apply Daniel 8:14 to 1844, or when Ezekiel applies it to the end of time (and describing the end of time to how it could have ended had Jesus been accepted). Or even those involved in producing the book of Daniel to move it from the end of Babylonian about 2300 days later to applying it to the 70 weeks of years. A third way we find the Bible writers and Mrs. White using scripture is a homiletical or linguistic application. Where it is not the immediate context of exegesis or a reapplication to a similar situation, but where the words still fit. (an example is Mrs. White saying that we are preaching the law the law the law until we are as dry as the hills of Gilboah. ) Deuteronomy 4 predicted that the exile could have been the last days. The original setting of the 2300 days was about 2300 literal days from the end of Babylon. Daniel 9 re-applies it to the 70 week of years prophecy. Ezekiel has a 2310 day prophecy that shows how it could have been fulfilled when Jesus came. Yes, there could still be another application, but the evening-morning points to the cycles that we find in Leviticus, and 1844 was the fulfillment of the day-year application.
  35. 1 point
    JoeMo

    jesus said there will not be marriage in the new earth

    IMHO, sex was given to humans because God knew they would need to populate the earth and replace themselves due to death. I doubt that we will have or need a sex drive in heaven, because we will be immortal with no need to reproduce ourselves. "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven." (Matt. 22:30; also see Mark 12:25). For many people, the "special bond of sex" is also known as "lust" - not always; but frequently. If we have no sex drive in heaven , lust will be a thing of the past. That being said, I only infer that "not marrying" means "no sex"; but it is a strong inference. But IMHO the Bible never explicitly says there will be no sex in heaven.
  36. 1 point
    Kevin H

    When Was Jesus Crucified?

    Hi JoeMo: You are correct that Daniel 8:14 does not say "Day but "evening-morning." But may I say that this does NOT suggest a reference to the sacrifices and be equivalent to 1,150 days, but is actually a stronger argument for the Adventist application than if it did use the word "day". First of all, the term for the sacrifice is NOT "evening-morning", but a very technical "morning and evening". I actually read in a couple of commentaries that support the 1150 days that the author of Daniel was clearly Dyslexic because he meant to write "mornings and evenings" but he switched around the words "morning"and the word "evening" and he forgot to include the word "and" but that we have to be careful to recognize his dyslexia and not read the text as it stands but to change the text to what he meant to say. However, others recognizing that the term "evenings-morning" is very similar to the "evenings and mornings" of Genesis 1 and is thus related to the daily cycle, but that it is also emphasis to the daily cycle and should be compared to the weekly cycles that we find in Leviticus 23 and in the book of Deuteronomy. In Leviticus 23 a Hebrew week is 6 days and the weekly Sabbath, 6 months and either Passover or Yom Kippur, 6 years and the Sabbatical year, and 6 Sabbatical years and the Jubilee. Thus an evening-morning is a reference to the daily cycle of this and can be a literal day, month, year or sabbatical year. However Daniel is based on Deuteronomy which does not have the Jubilee as it is in Leviticus. Everything that happens in the Jubilee in Leviticus occurs in the Sabbatical year of Deuteronomy, thus while it can relate to the Jubilee it would not allow for 2300 sabbatical years. Anyway, another reason why we can say that it should not be 1150 days is by looking at the text. The vision was given in the 3rd year of Belshazzar. Now it was not until the 20th century that we learned that Belshazzar was indeed a real person. The 1150 days comes from the theory that Daniel did not exist and the book was written to deal with the issue of Antiochus Epiphanes and the wrong but wishful thinking that he would only have power for 1150 days. (they see the 2300 days as too long, the 1150 days are actually too short, but fit a little bit better than the 2300, and they can point out that it was only wishful thinking.) But now we know that Belshazzar was indeed a real person and we know what years he ruled. Now we only have the year to go by, but if you start with the third year of Belshazzar and add 1150 literal days to it you come to a year of business as usual. However if you start with the third year of Belshazzar and add 2300 days to it you come to the year that includes Medio-Persia approaching Babylon, Behshazzar's feast, and the early days of the Medio-Persia empire. Also, if you hold the early date of the exodus, Yom Kippur 1844 ends a cycle of 7 Sabbatical years and the start of a Jubilee. And what was happening on the earth at this time was that the Rosetta stone had recently been translated opening up ancient languages, and Edward Robinson just completed his first trip to the Holy Land and had just published his book of the trip. This was the first serious study in Bible Geography which opened the door to Biblical Geography and archaeology, it was the dawning of the age of exegesis. A time where we get to investigate the pages of scripture like never before.
  37. 1 point
    Gregory Matthews

    New Healthcare for Veterans

    See: https://www.portland.va.gov/PORTLAND/features/The_MISSION_Act_is_now_implemented_across_the_VA.asp Yesterday, June 6, 2019, a new law went into effect that established new health-care options and procedures for veterans of the U.S. military. The URL above takes you to a site that explains this along with links that provide further information.
  38. 1 point
    news

    The Woman Who Anointed Jesus’ Feet (13:3)

    Think of the story of Simon, the leper healed by Jesus (Luke 7:36-50). He invited Jesus to a dinner at his house. During the feast, a woman anointed Jesus’ feet with expensive perfume. If this scene is the same one recorded in John 12:1-8, that woman was Mary of Bethany, sister of Martha and Lazarus. […] The post The Woman Who Anointed Jesus’ Feet (13:3) appeared first on Jon Paulien's Blog. View the full article
  39. 1 point
    MaxO

    How to use your GeosatPro HDVR 3500 recording feature

    We receive calls all the time asking how to use the recording feature on the GeosatPro hdvr 3500 satellite receiver. We published a how-to video just for that. Go to our support section of our website, just click on this link. I you need other technical support feel free to give us a call. Lord bless.
  40. 1 point
    Stan

    My New Project, check out the person on page 6

    First edition of the Magazine published in cooperation with the General Conference, Office of Adventist Mission and the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada. For information on subscribing to this please email MessengerSA@adventist.ca http://issues.adventistmessenger.ca/books/clae/
  41. 1 point
    news

    The Woman Taken in Adultery (13:2)

    In the person of Jesus, God was present among us in human form, face to face with sinners. One of the best known of these sinners was the poor woman taken in adultery. But she wasn’t the only sinner in that story. There were also the pious, but heartless accusers who brought her to Christ […] The post The Woman Taken in Adultery (13:2) appeared first on Jon Paulien's Blog. View the full article
  42. 1 point
    dgrimm60

    Pathfinder Fraud Alert

    GREGORY thank you for posting this article===== it seems like some people === mostly out side of the church and maybe some people inside of the church are trying to take advantage of a fun time for the youth dgrimm60
  43. 1 point
    Gregory Matthews

    Who's fooling who?

    To subtract 457 from the 2300 figure to obtain a date of 1843 is a common mistake that is made by people who do not understand the BC/AD dating system that we have today. That actual data obtained by such is not 1843. Ignorance of the issue involved here can not be excused as a technical issue that should only be expected to be known by scholars. This issue has been published so widely that we can expect that everyone who comments on this date would be aware of the issue and make the appropriate adjustment to the date obtained. The actual date is 1844. The adjustment that is required to be made is due to the fact that there is not a "zero year" that exists between a BC and an AD date. The following website is one place where one can become informed as to this issue. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_zero NOTE: My comment here is NOT focused on HCH. He has quoted from people who have used the 1843 date as well as the 1844 date.
  44. 1 point
    news

    Chapter Thirteen: “How God Treats His Erring Children” (13:1)

    What do you think it will be like, someday, to stand in the presence of the Infinite One and realize that He knows everything about us—and I do mean everything? Even if we are among the saved, will we be comfortable to spend eternity with Someone who knows us so well? Our answer to these […] The post Chapter Thirteen: “How God Treats His Erring Children” (13:1) appeared first on Jon Paulien's Blog. View the full article
  45. 1 point
    Rahab

    3 word devotional

    💦 Wash His feet 💖 Luk 7:38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
  46. 1 point
    Gregory Matthews

    Who is JoMo?

    [I am transferring JoMOs post about himself to this thread--GM.] Hey Wanderer, Nice to "see" you! A little about me: I was raised as a good Catholic in a nice Italian family. I always wanted to be a priest - until I discovered girls; and that lifelong celibacy thing was a deal-breaker. As I went through my 20's and 30's, I became dissatisfied with Catholicism and started searching. I was one of the original hippies in the late 1960's, and became a complete new-age pagan Bohemian. After graduation, I felt an urge to return to God. I studied with JW's for a couple years; and about a month before I was to be baptized, I "discovered" the Sabbath through the Worldwide Church of God (Herbert and Garner Ted Armstrong). We then moved from Missouri (pronounced Misery) to New Mexico in 1975. There was no WWCoG there, so I looked through the phone book for a Christian Sabbath-Keeping church and stumbled upon SDA's I called the pastor and requested Bible Studies, got baptized, and it "took". I was a real "Taliban" Adventist for many years - made EGW look like an infidel. The legalism and paranoia about not being "good enough" and having my "brothers" watch over and critique every move my family made was really discouraging. When my favorite pastor ever was drummed out of our congregation (and lost his credentials) for initiating a contemporary Sabbath service, I got so mad I left the church and joined a charismatic congregation. That was a very enlightening and positive experience. After a few years as a charismatic, I grew weary of hearing nothing but warm fuzzies about God; and how powerful we already were; and about how Jesus would return AFTER the church conquered the world for Jesus ( a form of amillennialism). Somehow Gail stumbled upon a message I had left on LinkedIn and invited me to look at CA. I liked the diversity and joined - but I had a real chip on my shoulder about SDA's. A fine retired pastor on this site took me under his wing and we went through the 28 Fundies as written; not necessarily as practiced. The more people I met here, the more "Adventist" and less "Charismatic" I became. So here I am several years later still hooked. I consider myself a "recovering legalist". I am now more concerned about maintaining a constant dialog and relationship with my God; and am much less concerned with adherence to the small print on the SDA "contract" and performance management. Yet, by focusing on Jesus and His Spirit rather than on myself, I find that I am coming more into conformance with the Family standards than ever; and it is happening "naturally" rather than by my cycles of futile effort and failure. I still practice some of the spiritual stuff I learned as a charismatic (although usually in private); but I feel more balanced looking at the whole panorama of scripture rather than focusing exclusively on either the "warm fuzzies" or the "fire and brimstone". My passions are eschatology and continual improvement of my relationship with and faith in Yahweh. 0 Like this
  47. 1 point
    B/W Photodude

    A chill coming in American culture

    I see so much approval of evil under the guise of "love." I think that is very wrong. Problem with that kind of behavior is that is emboldens others in their evildoing and help guarantee their trip to perdition. Those participating in it will be held accountable.
  48. 1 point
    JoeMo

    What Makes a Word "Dirty"?

    That's true. A funny thing happened at church one week. We had a new assistant pastor straight from the Ukraine whose English was less than fluent. He sang "Amazing Grace" quite beautifully while playing the cello - except for one boo-boo. He started the song with "Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a [censored] like me". He was puzzled why so many people snickered. When we explained it to him as gently as we could, he was quite embarrassed.
  49. 1 point
    B/W Photodude

    Kavanaugh Hearings

    This whole thing was such a disgusting display by the Democrats including Senator Feinstien. She basically proved that women can be just as dirty and unethical as some men can be in politics. Senator Graham was spot on. https://www.facebook.com/realCalebHull/videos/470137273491104/
  50. 1 point
    JoeMo

    New Jerusalem Population

    I tend to think much of Rev. is literal. Hence, I believe the 144,000 are a literal number - 12,000 from each of the physical and spiritual tribes of Israel remaining on the earth at the Second Coming. The total number of the saved is innumerable. Rev. 7 is crystal clear on this.
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