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Coffee - Health Food!


Tom Wetmore

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Here 'tis, Dave: "Tea and coffee drinking is a sin, and injurious undulgence. which, like other evils, injures the soul" Ellen White ... Counsels on Diet and Foods p.425

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Thank-you, Bravus. Now, as to the merits of the statement . . .

I accept Sister White's prophetic ministry and guidance by God. Sister White without a doubt had a closer walk with God than I do, and she regularly received instruction directly from God. I believe that this instruction about coffee and tea, she received from God. I also believe that if she somehow misunderstood what she had been shown or told, God would have corrected the error. That never happened, to my knowledge. God is the Creator. He knows the human body better than I do. His instruction about coffee and tea, given through Sister White, is something which I would want to accept and follow without question.

Dave

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My point was that, absent a direct vision, EGW was pronouncing on coffee as a minister, rather than as a prophet, and that ministry was informed by the science of the day. It also means (IMO) that she is not more infallible than other ministers on this point.

I pretty much agree with this point. I do however give Ellen a little more weight than just a minister even for things she said not shown to her in vision. That is because she did talk to angels and communicate with God in a way that most ministers do not.

I do not believe that God corrected every error she made. God did not intend for us to use her writings as a co-equal to the Bible. There was no need to correct each and every little error that she made.

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My point was that, absent a direct vision, EGW was pronouncing on coffee as a minister, rather than as a prophet, and that ministry was informed by the science of the day.

How would you know that? On that specific point, about coffee and tea, can you provide a reference in support of your statement? Do you know for a fact that God did not give Sister White such instruction?

Dave

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I don't know the body of her work well enough (and, frankly, don't care enough to go looking) to know whether any of her statements on this topic are preceded by an 'I was shown...'

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OK I am deeply in trouble now. And this tends to really blow the theory of righteousness by senility right out of the water... :GAH

EGW said "It is a sin to forget." I am in serious trouble since the older I get, this is one sin I increasingly am guilty of!

Help! But wait there is a medicinal cure available that could help me stop committing the sin of forgetting. Yes, indeed this may just help. Studies have demonstrated that caffeine improves memory... A cup of medicinal coffee to help me not be so forgetful.... Uh-oh I almost forgot...

:GAH

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And while I'm passing out guilt like candy.... For those of you who avoid or have great trouble mastering culinary skills, don't forget that EGW also said that poor cooking is also a sin, that to put poorly prepared food on the table is a sin. :sad

And some really poorly cooked food can make you sick which further compounds the sin, because EGW also said "It's a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression." There may be no end to this...

saywa

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Since coffee is a sin ... what would happen if we had meat with the coffee?

"Not an ounce of flesh meat should enter our stomachs. the eating of flesh is unnatural. We are to return to God's original purpose in the creation of man." Ellen White Counsels on Diet and Foods p. 380

Meat eating "evil"?

"Let not any of our ministers set an EVIL example in the eating of flesh meat" Counsels on Diet and Foods p. 399

Another favorite author here says that ...

"Deliberate violation of those basic laws of our health could unfit us for the kingdom of God."

"Never should a morsel of food pass the lips between meals". Ellen White ,Counsels on Health p. 118

For further study .... try Ellen White in Counsels on Health p.575-579 and below ....

"Many who are now only half converted on the question of meat eating will go from God's people, to walk no more with them ... Far better give up the name of Christian than make a profession and at the same time indulge appetites which strength unholy passions.

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rudywoofs (Pam)

And while I'm passing out guilt like candy.... For those of you who avoid or have great trouble mastering culinary skills, don't forget that EGW also said that poor cooking is also a sin, that to put poorly prepared food on the table is a sin. :sad

And some really poorly cooked food can make you sick which further compounds the sin, because EGW also said "It's a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression." There may be no end to this...

saywa

biglaugh.gif

Here's a couple of quotes from two of my old herbals, similar of which, by the way, EGW would have had access to:

Quote:
Coffee promotes digestion, and exhilarates the animal spirits; but an excessive use of it, like tea, affects the nerves, occasions watchfulness, and trembling of the hands. As possessing excellent antispasmodic virtues, it is a favourite beverage with the hypochondriac and hysteric.

Ewell, James, in The Medical Companion, Printed in Philadelphia, 1819

Quote:
Sick headache,Tea, and Coffee Often the Cause. ... Dr. Alcott, in writing on this subject says: "We are driven to the conclusion that no person can use the smallest quantity of tea or coffee, or, in fact, of any drink but pure water, without more or less deranging the action of the stomach and liver, and ultimately, through these, the nerves and brain, of the whole system. Nay, we are driven to a position stronger still, which is, that no person can take these poisons at all, without, in a greater or less degree, abridging human happiness and human life.

Taken from Dr. Chase's Combination Receipt Book, published memorially in 1915, Detroit, MI, using information and receipts from A.W. Chase, MD, from 1884.

gmorning.gif

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I think this all shows clearly that we pick out which Ellen Whites beliefs that we want to follow. I really doubt that anyone follows her totally. Although as a conservative myself ... I do come close.

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Here 'tis, Dave: "Tea and coffee drinking is a sin, and injurious undulgence. which, like other evils, injures the soul" Ellen White ... Counsels on Diet and Foods p.425

And like I said, she herself took some tea as a medicine to settle her stomach.

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I was involved in a little situation right close to my home. The closest church is the Maranatha church of the Northeastern Conference. It is an "all Nations type church. When the church was bought from the Methodists three or four years ago I suggested to the pastor that they might continue the "public-relations gesture" begun by the Methodists of allowing the county to use the gymnasium "gratis" as a polling place. The curt reply to that suggestion was, "The County Will pay!"............. and they informed the pollworkers that they were not allowed to bring a coffemaker into the kitchen........Great community PR! Regards, Don

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Tom ... you are not providing the cites for Ellen White when you quote her.(As David asked us to do.) You need to "get with it" !!!

They are all easily found with a basic word search using the White Estate's own software.

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Since coffee is a sin ... what would happen if we had meat with the coffee?...

I think in this case two wrongs might actually make a right! Coffee seems to help minimize some of the harmful effects of eating meat. To quote from the original article:

Quote:
Dr. Lenore Arab of the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA also took part, presenting results of a review of nearly 400 studies investigating coffee consumption and cancer risk.

There's evidence, Arab noted, that the beverage may protect against certain types of colon cancer, as well as rectal and liver cancer, possibly by reducing the amount of cholesterol, bile acid and natural sterol secretion in the colon, speeding up the passage of stool through the colon (and thus cutting exposure of the lining of the intestine to potential carcinogens in food), and via other mechanisms as well.

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...Taken from Dr. Chase's Combination Receipt Book, published memorially in 1915, Detroit, MI, using information and receipts from A.W. Chase, MD, from 1884.

gmorning.gif

ROFL

Actually this sounds like the source of what olger wrote...

No reason to consider any medical or scientific source after the 19th Century... tomato

tea.gif

angelnot

Tom

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Intentional involvement in harmful & addictive substances will bear fruit that we will rather not pick.

Each of us are free to choose what we will eat/drink, of course. If we make right choices, we will receive a blessing. If we make wrong choices, we will experiences consequences.

It is good "not to be mastered by anything" according to Paul in 1 Cor 6:12.

olger

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Co Aspen. You are not lost. You have found the truth. You are right on. There is no way you can get by their mumble jumble of twisted words. And in the end they don't know what they are saying.

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The Bible gives twelve rewards for Godly living:

1) I will experience peace (psalm 37:37)

2) I will experience joy (psalm 97:11)

3) I will have guidance in making decision (Prov 11:3)

4) I will prosper (Psalm 92:12)

5) I will experience security (prov 10:9)

6) I will gain wisdom (Prov 2:70

7) I will gain the favor of others (prov 14:9)

8) I will experience God's provision for my needs (psalm 37:25)

9) Our children will experience God's blessing (Psalm 112:2)

10) I will never be forgotten (112:2)

11) I will have hope in death (Prov 14:32)

12) I will have a sure reward (Prov 11:18; Psalm 37:18)

The Bible is very clear that decisions made in life will have certain results. "Whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap" (Gal. 6:7). The study of the Bible reveals natural consequences of a number of specific actions. These natural consequences can be considered God's warnings to prevent people from practicing destructive behavior patterns. Jesus warned "Whoever commits sin is a servant of sin" (John 8:32). When a person sins, that one action can lead to a pattern of sin, and eventually one will become a slave to that sinful pattern. Joy & fulfillment cannot be experienced in life because of these negative consequences that will occur when one is in bondage to sin. Many people fail to see the connection between decisions they made in the past and the difficult situations that they currently experience. The solution is to acknowledge & confess our sins.

The Bible reveals a number of consequences for wrong actions. a few;

1) A lazy person will experience poverty (Prov 6:11)

2 A person involved in pre-marital sex will experience financial loss (Proverbs 5:10; 6:26)

3) A person involved in moral failure will experience immorality in their family (II Samuel 12:11-12;13:1-6).

4) A person involved in moral failure will go astray in other areas (prov 5:23).

5) A person who is morally impure will not keep promises (proverbs 2:17)

6) Use of alcolhol or drugs will bring contention into our life (Prov 23:29-30).

7) A rebellious person will destroy God's reputation (1 Timothy 6:1; Ezekiel 20:8-10).

8) A materialistic person will experience harmful lusts & desires that will destroy them (1 Timothy 6:9).

9) a proud person will experience dishonor & shame (Prov 11:2).

10) A proud person will experience a sense of distance from God (Psalm 138:6).

11) A proud person will experience contention in their relationships (Proverbs 13:10; 28:25).

God is in the business of redeeming & changing lives.

Bless you,

olger

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Ger,

Wonderfully meaningful stuff there, but offtopic

I even carefully read through your lists and mulled over just how drinking coffee might actually relate/effect/diminish, or whatever any of those 23 points. There really is no correlation with any of them and one could make a reasonably good case that drinking coffee could have a positive effect on many of them.

All right now, back to our regularly scheduled programing...

Tom

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Ger,

Wonderfully meaningful stuff there, but offtopic

I even carefully read through your lists and mulled over just how drinking coffee might actually relate/effect/diminish, or whatever any of those 23 points. There really is no correlation with any of them and one could make a reasonably good case that drinking coffee could have a positive effect on many of them.

All right now, back to our regularly scheduled programing...

Tom

I just wrote the following on another thread but I will put it up here as well because it relates so well to your post:

How about Ellen White's startling, almost unbelievable statement: "It is a sin to be sick..."?

But let's read the whole statement in context: "It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression. Many are suffering in consequence of the transgression of their parents. They cannot be censured for their parents' sin; but it is nevertheless their duty to ascertain wherein their parents violated the laws of their being, which has entailed upon their offspring so miserable an inheritance; and wherein their parents' habits were wrong, they should change their course, and place themselves by correct habits in a better relation to health." Counsels On Health, p. 37.

Then also consider a few more statements that I believe help us understand why she said what she said above:

"Knowledge must be gained in regard to how to eat and drink and dress so as to preserve health. Sickness is the result of violating nature's law. Our first duty, one which we owe to God, to ourselves, and to our fellow men, is to obey the laws of God. These include the laws of health." CH 24, 25.

"A continual transgression of nature's laws is a continual transgression of the law of God...When men take any course which needlessly expends their vitality or beclouds their intellect, they sin against God..." CH 20

"Every needless transgression of the laws which God has established in our being is virtually a violation of the law of God, and is as great a sin in the sight of Heaven as to break the Ten Commandments. Ignorance upon this important subject is sin... All should have an intelligent knowledge of the human frame, that they may keep their bodies in the condition necessary to do the work of the Lord." CH 40, 41

Ellen White is using "sin" in the Biblical sense of being a failure to live up to God's ideal or God's plan for us. God commanded, "You shall not murder." We can slowly murder ourselves by our bad habits such as eating wrongly and not exercising.

A non-SDA theologian, Wayne Grudem, defined sin as "any failure to conform to the moral law of God in act, attitude, or nature." (Systematic Theology, p. 490.) If God's ideal or plan is for us to be healthy, any time we do things that keep us from being healthy, it is a sin. For instance, I'm a diabetic today partly because of my heredity (grandpa died of it) but also because I foolishly (and sinfully) did things I shouldn't have done and didn't do things I ought to have done. I know now that it was a sin on my part. I also used to drink coffee because at my work I felt I had to do it in order to stay awake all night. I stopped drinking it about a year ago and as a result my blood pressure is normal again. Oh, and I found other ways of stay awake on the job. I liked my coffee, sure, but I like having lower blood pressure better, and besides, Pero tastes just like coffee.

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I actually kinda agree with this all-encompassing use of the word 'sin'. The 'there is sin which is not unto death' verse is helpful in that context, but it also reminds us that we're all in need of a saviour... even those who claim they have attained a state where they never sin.

But now to get us back on topic for this thread: EGW said coffee was sin because she believed it harmed health, and as John said above, harming health is sin. My original question was, if coffee was shown *not* to harm health, and in fact to promote health, would its use still be sin, just because she mistakenly said so?

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