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Ellen White a false prophet?!?!


rush4hire

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I would never say she was. I fear God.

But there are heaps of people who continue to gather lies and they are pretty subtle.

At http://www.christian-forum.net/ you can search for "Ellen White" and so far there are only 30 posts. They seem unanimous that she's a false prophet, and the strange phenomena where demonic, and SDAs are just as deluded as Mormons.

Here's the main post listing the slander.

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?act=findpost&hl=&pid=171840

It's identical to this blog. I'm guessing it's the same guy, and he pasted it.

http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress....-day-adventism/

Here's another example:

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?act=findpost&hl=&pid=175417

I guess I'll attempt to say something as soon as I get time.

Quote:
37:3 And they said unto him, Thus saith Hezekiah, This day [is] a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and of blasphemy: for the children are come to the birth, and [there is] not strength to bring forth.

37:4 It may be the LORD thy God will hear the words of Rabshakeh, whom the king of Assyria his master hath sent to reproach the living God, and will reprove the words which the LORD thy God hath heard: wherefore lift up [thy] prayer for the remnant that is left. (Isaiah 37:3,4; 2 Kings 19:3,4)

1 Sam 17:26 .. who [is] this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should defy the armies of the living God?

John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess [him], lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

I want to make a post on their forums right now, but I know it will take hours to research all these things, and I just don't have time right now.

Please pray. Perhaps this zealot who opposes the truth means well, and will turn out like Paul.

Quote:
Phil 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church..

Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

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SDAs are just as deluded as Mormons.

And here is another Bible verse about Seventh Day Adventists.

"...an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God." John 16:2 NASB

Truth is. No voice of disagreement will change Truth.

As with all, pursuing Jesus is your only hope.

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13 KJV

"Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.

2 Chronicles 20:20 KJV

"It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?" Matthew 10:25 KJV

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15 KJV

Regards! peace

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Here is one of the quotes that some use to claim she is a false prophet. They ignore the fact that the section starts by saying that the vision "concerns the church generally," the people who disagree with her, claim the prophecy concerned the people at the conference but the prophecy was about the SDA church generally. Some will be food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, and some will be translated to heaven!

At the Conference at Battle Creek, May 27, 1856, I was

shown in vision some things that concern the church

generally(page 128)...Said the angel, "Some food for worms, some subjects

of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the

earth, to be translated at the coming of Jesus."(page 131)

- Ellen G White

- Testimonies to the Church

When you read how the vision starts then you can see that she was talking about the church in general

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I never worry about what they post there.

If they can not figure out the Biblical position of what happens when you die, why would a person be concerned about deeper issues?

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You are right Redwood. We should be ready now. Unfortunately most people, uncluding me, are not ready yet. I wish i knew God s time setting...

For you .... it could be tonight. You could die at any moment. The next thing you know ... there He is.

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While it may have been subconscious to a large degree, the problem with the above vision comes from the development of fundamentalism in the late 1800 and early 1900s. As Fundamentalism developed there developed false ideas of what a prophet should be and how inspiration should work. Mrs. White faught against people trying to make her fit the fundamentalist mold of a prophet, however after she died and the rejection of her hand picked and trained church leaders in 1923, the church went gung hoe for the myth of a prophet and forcing Mrs. White into this mold.

When you look at Bible truth you learn that thr promises and curses of God are alike conditional. We have become so adapt at tap-dancing over these texts to force the Bible to fit what we want it to say, that we don't notice that the Bible 1) Gives every generation either the chance to be the last generation, or to prepare for the next generation to be the last generation and related to that 2) There are similar statements in the Bible about when the time would be and people living then to see it. However they were all based on conditions that were not fulfilled.

As for that Ellen White quote: The context was that the church was planing an evangelistic thurst and Mrs. White was encouraging them in this decision: In reality, like many ideas in business meetings, the idea stopped in the planning room. It was never implimented. If the condition was not fulfilled, then why would we expect the prophecy to be fullfilled?

Now I've noticed six things about this critical sites:

1.) They like to take her quotes out of literary or historical context. An example here is they have quote after quote that a superficial reading sounds like she's denying her borrowing. However, when looked at who she was addressing those comments to, they were to people who were aware of her copying, some of them were doing the copying for her. The issue was not whether or not she was coppying, but as they were starting to be influenced by the developing theory of fundamentalism, they did not see the copying as fitting the myth of a prophet and wondered if her message came from her visions or from all her reading and the sources she was copying.

The critics neglect to point out that these so called denial statements are not given to wide eye ignornat wonderers who only heard roumers that she was copying. They were given to the people who were fully aware of the copying, many of them helping copy, and she knew that they were aware of her copying. You cannot have a denial statement to the people who are intamately aware of the facts and you know that they are aware of the facts.

2.)They are notorious for either misquoting Mrs. White, or quoting her but mixing it with other ideas that she may not have held. For example, Mrs. White was saying that England was following the civil war and considering wether or not to get involved. The critics said she predicted that England was going to get involved and they didn't. I've seen and others have pointed out quote after quote where when compaired to how they write what she says and what the source actually says, you find them frequently misquoting her and in their misquote they make her say something that she actually does not say. They are not able to simply coppy words and letters correctly.

So far the critics have a horrible tendency of taking her quotes out of context, then not even able to get her words right so they are twisted words out of historical or literary context, they do not sound very trustworthy.

3.) In the matter of the reformed dress, testimony # 11, and events after 1888, especially on the issue of the daily and in conversations with Stephen Haskell, and some of the forefathers of todays Historic Adventist movement, she wrote a lot about what visions do and do not do for her. What issues are central and how her time is wasted on side issues that people push her to comment on and how Haskell and these others took all her comments on equal setting and she did not like it. These are topics where she frequently changed her mind and where she warned us that if we were to focus on these issues we would find problems. So they confirm that she was right, if you want to focus on those issues you will find problems. I'll follow her advice and see what she has to say about them but not focus on them but focus on what these critics avoid like the plague, the issues she saw as central and important.

Well, as you look at the issues the critics focus on, they are ALL these issues that she saw as side issues where she said that God has given her the same insight that God gives people in general and not a theam of her visions. They constantly look at the side issues. I never found them even once looking at any of her central messages.

So the critics look exclusively at perepheral issues, take the quotes out of context then can't even just quote her out of context but they have to twist her words.

4.) The critics tend to claim that they were once conservative Adventists, but how they discribe their expirence as Adventists were as using Mrs. White as a club to smash non-Adventists. Now they have become "converted" and are using Paul as a club to smash Adventists. I do not see much of a change in them.

I see them as just general snobish people who think that they are better if others are worst. They used Ellen White to coddle to their conseat and contempt. Learned that Ellen White did not meet the mold of a fundamentalist prophet, so they changed to Paul who has been seen as a prophet for nearly 2,000 years, surely Paul fit the mold of a fundamentalist prophet, and they now use Paul to coddle their conseat and contempt.

5.)Their interpatation of Paul comes not from exogetical studies of Paul, but from church tradition. They are very focused on Reformation Theolgoy, and how Luther and others in the 1500s understood paul and see these sixteenth century interpetations as the final authority. How safe would you feel to go to a medical doctor who has studied how medicine was done in the 1500s and insist that is the only form of medicine to use and to reject all developments that have come since the 1500s? I would not trust them with my health. And here these theogogical "medicine men" want us to trust our eternal life on where Bible knowlege was in the 1500s and even the advancements made by the Wesleys are rejected. Modern Biblical Scholarship does not support their views. May I recommend Jim Fleming "Acts: New Discoveries from the Early Church" audio recordings of lectures and notebook (Google in "Jim Fleming" and "Biblical Resources") Also the works of E. P. Sanders "Paul and Palestaining Judiasm" and "Paul, the law and the Jewish people" J. D. G. Dunn "Romans" 2 vol, and " Jesus, Paul and the Law" (John Knox 1990) S. Westerholm "Israel's law and the Church's faith, 'Paul and his Interpreters'" F. Theilman "From Plight to Solution: A Jewish Framework for understanding Paul's view of the Law in Galations and Romans" and P. J. Thomson "Paul and the Jewish Law: Halakha in the letters of the Apostle to the Gentiles" (all refered to in Fleming). They may not support some of our traditions, but they don't condem us for our love for the Sabbath and they shread the arguments of our critics.

6.) The critics offer a very westernized cultural version of evangelical Christianity as the only way of salvation. They do not see that Jesus is bigger than Christianity, much less any section of Christianity. They teach righteousness by works, saying the right things about Jesus. Righteousness by vocabulary. They have a short list of works, but it is still works. Those who have not said the right words about Jesus are lost. If you follow the chain of their arguments They don't have room in heaven for Abraham Joshua Heshel, Anwar Saddat, Gandhi, maybe they can barely squeeze Mother Teresa in. There are many Jews who love God. There are many Muslims who love God, there are many Buddists who are reaching out to what ever is out there. Jesus sees who they are. Being saved in the "Name" of Jesus means the character of Jesus. Many Jews, Muslims, Hindus will wake up in the resurection and say "You're Jesus? I thought that Jesus was... well, never mind, I know you, you have been my friend and comfort throughout life!!!"

Now who do I want to be in heaven with, those who are going after the character of Jesus even if they don't meet the standards that the critics offer for salvation; or with fundamentalist evangelicals who use Paul as interpeted by tradition and not what Paul had in mind, to bash Adventists and to take perepheral issues from Mrs. White, out of their context, then change her words. Somehow heaven with these people sound like an eternal hell to me. I am quite happy not catering to them.

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You are right Redwood. We should be ready now. Unfortunately most people, uncluding me, are not ready yet. I wish i knew God s time setting...

To be ready for Jesus return is to have accepted fully, Jesus as your Savior and Lord of your life. It is not the same as the eventual flawlessness of the redeemed that occurs at Jesus coming, an act of creation by Jesus at that time. We are ready for Jesus to come from the time we accept His robe of righteousness, both imparted and imputed.

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 NKJV

"He will swallow up death for all time,

And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces,

And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth;

For the LORD has spoken." Isaiah 25:8 NASB

Regards! peace

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To no one in particular:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, saying, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachia, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar." Mt 23:29-35 ESV.

How many true prophets have met scorn and persecution. The Jesus declared to be the greatest was beheaded. And the Lord Himself, the greatest prophet of all, was crucified!

Gerry

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I finished my topic:

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=19524

It's called: "Talking to Enoch Necromancy?"

Here's an outline:

Issue 1. Necromancy

Issue 2. Date Setting

Issue 3. Plagarism

Issue 4. Supernatural Phenomena

Issue 5. Extra-Biblical Information

Issues Concerning the Sanctuary and the Judgment

Issue 6. 1844 Disappointment.

Issue 7. 1843 Prophetic Chart

Issue 8. The Sanctuary

Issue 9. Christ Went Strait to Holiest of All

Issue 10. Satan "Joint Sin-Bearer" with Christ

Issue 11. Open and Shut Door

Issue 12. Christ For Ever Making Intercession

Issue 13. She Says Bad Things About Us..

Issue 14. Lost if You Don't Believe Ellen White?

Issue 15. 1856 Vision.

Issue 16. Recording Angel

Issue 17. The Day and Hour of Jesus' Coming

Issue 18. Remnant Church

Issue 19. Michael Another Name for Jesus

Issues About Current Events

Issue 20. England "humbling" the United States

Issue 21. The Civil War to Abolish Slavery

Issues About Diet

Issue 22. Fish and Eggs

Issue 23. Vegetarianism

Issue 24. No Meat Eaters Translated

Issue 25. PORK is “Nourishing and Strengthening Food”

Other Issues

Issue 26. Wigs and Insanity?

Issue 27. Golden Cards

Issue 28. Warning Against Feather Beds

Issue 29. Ordaining Women

Issue 30. Amalgamation

Conclusion

___________________________

Please pray for the searching souls who will be tempted to scorn and ridicule. It seems unanimous at that forum that Ellen White is a false prophet. There are a few supporters, but they don't what to say on her behalf.

If you have time, please reply to the post.

Thanks. God bless!

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Here is r4h's only reply so far

Quote:
Your analysis track should have convinced you that E.G. White was a false prophetess and teacher. Many of her claims were not true like going to heaven and speaking with certain Biblical characters. Much of her understanding of the scriptures were in error as well. I would suggest that you dig deeper into the falsehoods still maintained by the historic SDA church. Sounds like you may be a member. Caution. Stephen
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I wish I had read here before posting on the "Book Review" thread, but maybe it is good to put this both places.

I am 70 and am a 4th gen. SDA. I have grown up through much controversy over the years on EGW. I also became disillusioned and quite reading.

A year ago I found the book "More Than A Prophet" by Dr. Graeme Bradford, he is a pastor and professor in theology at Avondale College. He spent 20 years researching the ministry of EGW. He sent his manuscript to Dr. Samuel Bacchiochi. Dr. B. stated that he was hearing from many pastors wondering what to do about so many of their church members that were giving up EGW. Dr. B. said that this book needed to be published. So he did.

After I read the book I now am back again reading EGW in a totally different light. I can now accept her for who she really was and not for what the church father's wanted her to be. I am gaining the real truth and spiritual blessings that I had lost.

You can purchase it from Dr. B's website.

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/

If you ask him, it can be purchased by the case for only $5.00 a book. We have gotten 3 cases and handed it out to our whole church.

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Now that you have been "straightened out" in your view of Ellen White by Graeme Bradford's book, what do you think of Ellen White's teaching in GC about the cleansing of the sanctuary and the Investigative Judgment? What is "the real truth"? What is the "totally different light" that is shed on these things?

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Here's the thing: Belief in EGW will save no one! She is not a prerequisite to enter heaven. So one can reject Ellen White if they wish, but please don't reject the Bible. And so this controversy over if one needs to accept/believe in Ellen White can come to an end.

Rob

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Ellen stated that her purpose was to point us to the Greater Light. So, if we go directly to the Greater Light and skip the Lessor light ... then the end result is the same. It is not the flash light that is important. It is the object that the light is pointing to that should be our focus.

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Ellen stated that her purpose was to point us to the Greater Light. So, if we go directly to the Greater Light and skip the Lessor light ... then the end result is the same. It is not the flash light that is important. It is the object that the light is pointing to that should be our focus.

While on the one hand that is true, on the other hand there are other aspects of her ministry that would be a special blessing that we'd miss.

When we read the words of the Bible, we are reading from a 20 - 21 century western civilization mindset, so we miss a lot that comes from the context: Historical, cultural, geographical and literary. These have been called "The Fifth Gospel."

Mrs. White focuses on part of the fifth gospel that was an intergret part of the culture and ancient world, but which we have lost in the west, that is the myth (and using myth in the technical term, not the idea of untrue stories)that perminiated people's minds when they read the Bible when it was written, and idea that the Bible writers and those in touch with the writers took for granted, the myth of the Great Controversy.

With our western mindset we look at the words but few have any idea of the impact of the great controversy myth on those worlds. Mrs. White was shown this important but forgotten aspect of the Bible's message.

A second aspect is her application of Biblical principles to modern situations, such as how to evangelize the large cities.

The Millerites loved to study the greater light, and God gave a lessor light, William Foy, who was encouraging them but pointing out that there was something that needed more study (the emphesses on the number 3 in the Bible). People rejoiced at the encouragement in his visions but ignored the message to study the 3's (and using his African - American heritage against him, there was too much prejudice to the messenger.)

Slaves in the south wanted the greater light of freedom. Hariote Tubman came to lead people to that greater light. Now I have not studied this out, but years ago on a tv play on her life, they were trapped at a house/barn by a river with the slave hunters about to catch them. Dispite the pannic the actress who played Ms. Tubman was just staring out into space, then took some deep breaths and said that she had a vision, that God showed her where there was a section of the river that was shallow enough to pass, although deep it would only reach to the neck of the smallest in the group, she took them there and they escaped.

I have not read anything that fully confirms that she had visions, once recently that she had these moments of a far away look where she would get the ideas on how to get her passengers to safty. Was she a prophet, a lesser light to bring the slaves to both the greater light of freedom, as well as to inspire the hopes in these slaves in the God who lead them? These slaves did not need the lessor light, the ministry of Ms. Tubman (whether she was a directly inspired prophet or not) other's made it to freedom without her help, but if you were a slave in the south would you rather just set out on your own, or would your soul thrill if while working in the fields instead of the regular songs you heard, that suddenly you were to hear singing the words "Go down Moses, Let my people Go." would you say "Let Ms. Tubman go, I'll not take advantage of her being here to lead us to freedom, I'll just go to the greater light of freedom without her help."

Yes, you can find your way without Mrs. White, but she gives us a short cut to the myth of the great controvercy which was a central focus of the Biblical world, and she gives us applications such as guidence in how to minister to a modern city.

Finally, once again, all Bible writers saw them as a lesser light pointing to a greater light, the law revealed at Sinai. Maybe we should just throw out the rest of the Bible except that greater light.

The big problem we have with Mrs. White is that we first of all do not understand the roll of the different kinds of prophets. We think that there was only one kind of prophet and that they were simply God's megaphone or God's pen, not his penmen. We have not studied the different types of prophets in the ancient world, and how Mrs. White fits into the Biblical pattern of a prophet. We want her to fit the Fundamentalist's view of a prophet. Her defenders try to squeese her into that mold, and her retractors realize that she does not fit into that mold and move on to Paul thinking that he fits their mold (let's pray that they either remain stupid, or if they learn that Paul has the same problems they complain about Mrs. White that they won't throw out faith all together. Too many of us have our faith built on Fundamentalism, not on Jesus and the Bible.)

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Ellen stated that her purpose was to point us to the Greater Light. So, if we go directly to the Greater Light and skip the Lessor light ... then the end result is the same. It is not the flash light that is important. It is the object that the light is pointing to that should be our focus.

"Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper." 2 Chronicles 20:20 KJV

One always has the freedom to disregard the Lord's chosen methods to enlighten His people. Then one has no option except to freely admit the problems that occur as a result of refusing His guidance are of their own choosing.

Regards! peace

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Ellen stated that her purpose was to point us to the Greater Light. So, if we go directly to the Greater Light and skip the Lessor light ... then the end result is the same. It is not the flash light that is important. It is the object that the light is pointing to that should be our focus.

If God went to all the trouble of giving thousands of visions and dreams to someone, I think it would be foolish to think I can afford to be ignorant of the things God has said through that individual, especially since that person-- Ellen White--was sent particularly to the Seventh-day Adventist church. Satan doesn't care what reason people think up for either ignoring or rejecting Ellen White's writings, as long as they don't read or obey what she says. The same applies to the Bible. Satan has thousands of different ways of lessening the power and influence of the Bible, and he doesn't care which way is successful.

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Quote:
Yes, you can find your way without Mrs. White, but she gives us a short cut to the myth of the great controvercy

Perhaps I misunderstand you ... but I firmly believe in the Great Controversy 'theme' as presented by Ellen White. So, I don't consider it a "myth". Are you saying you believe what she presented is a "myth"?

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Quote:
Yes, you can find your way without Mrs. White, but she gives us a short cut to the myth of the great controvercy

Perhaps I misunderstand you ... but I firmly believe in the Great Controversy 'theme' as presented by Ellen White. So, I don't consider it a "myth". Are you saying you believe what she presented is a "myth"?

Yes you did misunderstand me. I was trying to avoid this misunderstanding when I had mentioned that I was using "Myth" in it's technical defination, not that something is not true but the way things were explained in the past, ancient thought forms, mythopoetic thought.

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