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EGW and inspiration


Stan

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I have to agree with your post Redwood, also I like the statement you posted from EGW. Have you ever heard of Lyle Albrecht? He's on 3abn, he mentioned that if someone asks him to baptize them he will. Because you never known what the next minute will bring. Also like I mentioned before we had this discussion on baptism, and this one theologin mentioned that the foot washing was one way to reafirm our baptismal vows instead of actually having to be rebaptised. I thought that was interesting, I had never heard that before.

pk

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"Apostasy and Rebaptism—Although apostasy clearly existed in the apostolic church (e.g., Heb. 6:4-6), Scripture does not address the question of rebaptism."

I agree with your statement above John317 and since the purpose of Ellen White was to point us to the Bible ... I have to believe that any statement of hers in support of re-baptism would be extra-Biblical and thus would have to have been her own personal thought. To accept extra Biblical instructions would be to place her in a loftier position than she herself proclaimed.

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I have to agree with your post Redwood, also I like the statement you posted from EGW. Have you ever heard of Lyle Albrecht? He's on 3abn, he mentioned that if someone asks him to baptize them he will. Because you never known what the next minute will bring. Also like I mentioned before we had this discussion on baptism, and this one theologin mentioned that the foot washing was one way to reafirm our baptismal vows instead of actually having to be rebaptised. I thought that was interesting, I had never heard that before.

pk

Yes pk. I very much agree with what you have said about foot washing etc. Many consider foot washing to be a mini baptism. And yes ... I am very familiar with Lyle. I have listened to many of his sermons on 3ABN. I like him very much. He sure does love the Lord doesn't he. What passion and love ...

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"Apostasy and Rebaptism—Although apostasy clearly existed in the apostolic church (e.g., Heb. 6:4-6), Scripture does not address the question of rebaptism."

I agree with your statement above John317 and since the purpose of Ellen White was to point us to the Bible ... I have to believe that any statement of hers in support of re-baptism would be extra-Biblical and thus would have to have been her own personal thought. To accept extra Biblical instructions would be to place her in a loftier position than she herself proclaimed.

Consider a few points:

To say that the Bible does not address rebaptism is not to say that Scripture opposes rebaptism. Ellen White says many things-- "extra-Biblical" things-- that are not in the Bible, but these were not just the opinions of Ellen White. The Bible test does not mean that a prophet must only say what is already revealed in the Bible. The Bible test is whether a prophet contradicts God's previous revelation. The Bible does not teach against rebaptism. It does not address the question, except in Acts. 19.

Ellen White specifically denied that she wrote her own opinions in her published books. For instance, when she said Acts 19: 1-7 was "recorded by the Holy Spirit as an instructive lesson for the church," there's no reason to believe that she wrote these words on the basis of her mere opinion.

To deny the validity of rebaptism flies in the face not only of what the church long ago decided but also against the plain words of Ellen White, words which are not opposed to anything found in Scripture.

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The honest seeker after truth will not plead ignorance of the law as an excuse for transgression. Light was within his reach. God's Word is plain, and Christ has bidden him search the Scriptures. He reveres God's law as holy, just, and good, and he repents of his transgression. By faith he pleads the atoning blood of Christ, and grasps the promise of pardon. His former baptism does not satisfy him now. He has seen himself a sinner, condemned by the law of God. He has experienced anew a death to sin, and he desires again to be buried with Christ by baptism, that he may rise to walk in newness of life. Such a course is in harmony with the example of Paul in baptizing the Jewish converts. That incident [Acts 19: 1-7] was recorded by the Holy Spirit as an instructive lesson for the church.--Sketches From the Life of Paul, p. 133. (1883)

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Originally Posted By: Redwood
So, would you suggest that each time we sin ... that we be rebaptized with this kind of theory?

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When one has been baptized into Christ, rebaptism is called for only if there has been a definite apostasy from the beliefs and standards that fellowship with Christ requires" (6 BC 373).

This is a subject which each individual must conscientiously take his position upon in the fear of God. This subject should be carefully presented in the spirit of tenderness and love. Then the duty of urging belongs to no one but God; give God a chance to work with His Holy Spirit upon the minds, so that the individual will be perfectly convinced and satisfied in regard to this advanced step. A spirit of controversy and contention should never be allowed to come in and prevail on this subject. Do not take the Lord's work out of His hands into your own hands. Those who have conscientiously taken their position upon the commandments of God, will, if rightly dealt with, accept all essential truth. But it needs wisdom to deal with human minds. Some will be longer in seeing and understanding some kindred truths than others, especially will this be the case in regard to the subject of rebaptism, but there is a divine hand that is leading them--a divine spirit impressing their hearts, and they will know what they ought to do and do it. Evangelism (1946), page 373, paragraph 2

Good Reply John317, very good! thumbsup

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HEY?? What's with this censorship??

Where did my emoticon post go?

I was trying to get everyone back on track and somebody deleted them! bargu

So, here they are again!

offtopic

Perhaps another thread on baptism should be started!

We are speaking on the inspiration of EGW here, folks!

backtopic

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Ellen White says many things-- "extra-Biblical" things-- that are not in the Bible, but these were not just the opinions of Ellen White.... Ellen White specifically denied that she wrote her own opinions in her published books.

I don't care if Ellen White flew with angels I don't take her word on anything unless substantiated by the Scriptures.. The Bible is the only measuring stick of truth.

No wonder most Christians look on the SDA church as a cult!

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That was an interesting read, Robert. Thanks!

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But if you were buried alive, your baptism was a sham. It is my prayer that you will surrender to the cross today.
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Originally Posted By: John317
Ellen White says many things-- "extra-Biblical" things-- that are not in the Bible, but these were not just the opinions of Ellen White.... Ellen White specifically denied that she wrote her own opinions in her published books.

I don't care if Ellen White flew with angels I don't take her word on anything unless substantiated by the Scriptures.. The Bible is the only measuring stick of truth.

Yes, it is the only measuring stick for determining truth and for testing whether someone is a true prophet. Definitely. But you are making a mistake to think that a prophet is only going to say what the Bible says. God reveals things to prophets that he never revealed before.

The test is whether the prophet says things that are against clear Bible teaching. A true prophet may say something that is contrary to your interpretation of something, but that is not the test.

For instance, many people reject Ellen White because they believe she contradicts the Bible regarding the Sabbath. These people believe Sunday is the day they should keep now. So they are not rejecting Ellen White because she contradicts the Bible-- they are rejecting her because she disagrees with their mistaken understanding of it, and that is two different things.

A clear example of a prophet contradicting the Bible-- the "prophet" Joseph Smith wrote that Jesus was born in Jerusalem. He also said that the dead know a lot. He also said that all humans once lived in heaven as spirit beings before coming to this earth.

Those are clear contradictions.

Where does Ellen White clearly contradict the Scriptures?

Quote:
No wonder most Christians look on the SDA church as a cult!

If we teach the truth-- and I believe we do-- we don't need to be concerned with whether someone thinks of the SDA church as a cult. They might mistake the church for a cult simply for having a prophet. In that case, we can't change and say we don't have a true prophet. God blessed us with a prophet and the only reason to be ashamed is if we reject her or ignore her. I hope they think of us as a cult because of the truth and not because of their misunderstanding or misinformation.

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Mel ... I think what you have said is very true. Our church does teach much tradition and also much Ellen White. That would be a true statement. We teach much more traditions than one might realize.

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I think I can agree somewhat. But you know that other churches put there prophets over the bible all the time. For the mormons, Joseph Smith is who they will go to if they need to know something. For the Catholics its the Pope etc. I'm not saying that there are those in the SDA church that don't do that. But we as a church still preach the Bible first. Were as the others don't, so jumping on individuals for using EGW is not fair, since there are others that use other people to bring out there points of view. And the people they use are not even considered to be a prophet. I'm not saying that we can't find agreement with many different sources, but to put people down for using EGW as a reference. I agree that some clobber others with EGWism's. But I think we know the difference between those that use her only to those the quote her and than show where in the Bible that she is agreeing with.

pk

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What we really teach is "Scripture plus tradition plus EGW". That's according to your post....mel

Yes, we do teach what Ellen White said. No denying that. She is quoted often in our Sabbath School quarterlies, for instance.

As a church we believe she was a true prophet of God. The thing we should not do is use Ellen White to test the Bible. I can see why some-- perhaps many-- think that the church does that, but I don't agree.

Using Ellen White to test or correct the Bible would be if we said that the Bible says thus-and -so, but Ellen White says different, and we will stick with Ellen White. I don't know of a single time when this happens, although I can think of some instances that are used as examples where we do exactly that. (You can find hundreds of such examples on the Net if you have a mind to.)

But we do believe in Ellen White as "a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction."

What we believe and say is that "the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested."

Does that seem contradictory? I know it does to some.

About traditions-- there is nothing wrong with traditions per se. In fact they can be good. Even Paul speaks positively about some traditions. 2 Thess 3: 6; 1 Cor. 11: 2 [paradosis]

The Bible doesn't condemn all traditions. The Bible condemns traditions when they conflict or contradict the Bible or commandments of God.

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You are right guilbox in that some even here ... say that EGW doesn't contain any errors theologically and that she is an infallible interpreter. This is not something that she would have approved of while she was alive.

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Gal 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them." 11 Now it is evident that no man is righteous before God by the law; for "the just by faith shall live"; 12 but the law does not rest on faith, instead "He who does them [keeps all the rules] shall live by them."

Paul outlines two ways to gain eternal life:

1] "He who does them [keeps all the rules] shall live by them."

And

2] "the just by faith shall live"

You either get life by faith in Christ Jesus or life comes by he who abides "by all things written in the book of the law, and do them."

Now since no one is righteous the only way to obtain eternal life is by # 2.

Ellen White, however, contradicts Paul and uses the same phrase ("Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them") to place us under the law. In other words she teaches salvation by law:

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty. [EGW]

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Gal 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them." 11 Now it is evident that no man is righteous before God by the law; for "the just by faith shall live"; 12 but the law does not rest on faith, instead "He who does them [keeps all the rules] shall live by them."

Paul outlines two ways to gain eternal life:

1] "He who does them [keeps all the rules] shall live by them."

And

2] "the just by faith shall live"

You either get life by faith in Christ Jesus or life comes by he who abides "by all things written in the book of the law, and do them."

Now since no one is righteous the only way to obtain eternal life is by # 2.

Ellen White, however, contradicts Paul and uses the same phrase ("Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them") to place us under the law. In other words she teaches salvation by law:

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty. [EGW]

Robert, I hope you understand that this is not talking about God's Law the Ten Commandment the Decalogue. It is referring to the old covenant laws thus it says the "book of the law" also know at the book of the covenant. And the first five books of Moses was also called the Law the Torah. These include many laws and rules relevant to the sacrificial,ceremonial and civil laws not the Ten Commandment laws.Moses wrote these laws and by laws and put them in a book The T.C.'s God wrote and put them in stone not a book, revealing there everlasting value.

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I am only asking for honesty here and not debating the issue. We should not make claims as some do that we believe in "Sola Scriptura" when we actually do not believe that IMO....mel

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