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EGW and inspiration


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Originally Posted By: Robert

Okay...where does she contradict the Bible? Yes John???? nana

Moderator's hat on.

You are putting words in people's mouths. If you continue to do it' date=' it will be deleted.

Just because someone does not supply you with "contradictions" does not give you the right to say someone said "Ellen White will not contradict the Bible."

That is putting words in people's mouths.

[/quote']

This is the ultimate conclusion. You, BTW, aren't helping your cause....As I said before, you are too biased towards Ellen's writings and therefore you don't want to find error because if you did....

Rob

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John, this is a big one. She "spiritualizes" quotes from the Bible and in so doing confuses the reader. She means well, I think, but nevertheless she comes across as one who uses Bible verses, lifted out of context, to get her message across.

OK, let me study the article you posted.

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Originally Posted By: Robert

John, this is a big one. She "spiritualizes" quotes from the Bible and in so doing confuses the reader. She means well, I think, but nevertheless she comes across as one who uses Bible verses, lifted out of context, to get her message across.

OK, let me study the article you posted.

Okay....Tomorrow then.

Rob

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PC- RH

PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

DT- 05-07-1901

AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness

PR- 09

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says,Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

PC- RH

PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

DT- 10-17-1907

AT- The Two Covenants

PR- 08

The terms of the “old covenant” were, Obey and live: “If a man do, he shall even live in them” (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but “cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.” Deut. 27:26.

This is why EGW can't be the measuring stick. This is why I branched off into legalism! If, instead, I would I have used my Bible (especially Paul) I might of spared some folks a big headache, including myself.

This is very interesting Rob. Thanks for posting this.

To those who say "Ellen White will not contradict the Bible" ... this should serve as a wake up call.

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Originally Posted By: John317

Just because someone does not supply you with "contradictions" does not give you the right to say someone said "Ellen White will not contradict the Bible."

That is putting words in people's mouths.

This is the ultimate conclusion. You, BTW, aren't helping your cause....As I said before, you are too biased towards Ellen's writings and therefore you don't want to find error because if you did....

If I am biased towards Ellen White's writings, it is clear that you are biased against her and therefore you try to find error.

There is no question that I am biased in favor of Ellen White. I wouldn't deny that for a second.

However, you are wrong about the issue of Ellen White's fallibility. My understanding of Ellen White and the nature of inspiration doesn't require infallibility in order for her to be a true prophet. I don't believe that the Bible itself is free of errors. But do not ask me to name errors in the Bible. I will leave that for those who enjoy questioning the truthfulness of God's word. The same applies to God's modern-day prophet: if you want to emphasize the "mistakes" she made, that is up to you; but I prefer to talk about the truth that she taught.

If you believe she wrote "errors," beyond the one you've already named, then tell what they are. Tell us what the worst "mistakes" are, in your judgment.

What teaching of hers do you consider the worst and most dangerous.

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Some have proclaimed that they believe in all of her works meant for publication. Now ... I sincerely doubt that those who would say that ... have actually have read all 50 million of her words ... but they have already prejudged them as accurate.

This is clearly contrary to what our prophet instructed us to do.

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Originally Posted By: guibox

Using EGW as an infallible interpreter of the scriptures is just as bad and many in the church are notorious for this. By denying that all that EGW said doesn't contain any error theologically means that she is an infallible interpreter. The biblical doctrines as defined by the SDA church and endorsed by EGW cannot be changed.

That's not according to my own understanding of the church's view of the relationship between Ellen White and the Bible.

Ellen White was not an exegete' date=' and she wasn't writing from that perspective. She wrote about what she saw in vision and she wrote from the pastoral viewpoint, not that of a trained theologian discussing abstractions and theological systems.

Therefore there is plenty of room for interpreting scripture. There are many subjects and verses about which she wrote nothing or very little.

I believe in Ellen White as a true prophet of God but I don't see her as an infallible interpreter of the Scriptures.

When SDA pastors are trained, they are not taught that they should read Ellen White's comments before they study a particular Bible text and make up a sermon. If anything, they are taught to study Ellen White's comments after they have studied the Bible texts themselves and drawn conclusion on the basis of solid exegesis.

Personally, when I study the Bible, I don't usually consider what Ellen White wrote until I have finished studying the text for myself.

[/quote'] Amen John very well said! thumbsup

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Some have proclaimed that they believe in all of her works meant for publication. Now ... I sincerely doubt that those who would say that ... have actually have read all 50 million of her words ... but they have already prejudged them as accurate.

This is clearly contrary to what our prophet instructed us to do.

Where did "our prophet" say that we should not believe in all her published writings or believe them to be accurate?

In my thinking, it's far better for a believer in God's prophet to say they have confidence in her than to give emphasis to the "errors" she supposedly makes.

What spirit is behind all the doubts and questions about the Bible or about Ellen White? Who wants the church to reject her? Remember that "our prophet" said that the last deception would be a rejection of the testimonies and that it would be caused by a Satanic hatred.

The same spirit that provoked the people of Israel to attack another prophet of God and test Christ in the wilderness so that over 14, 000 rebels died. 1 Cor. 10: 9; Numbers 16.

I'm sure that none of us would want to find ourselves doing the work of Satan, yet that is precisely what we're doing whether we realize or not, when we get enjoyment out of giving emphasis to doubts about the Spirit of prophecy.

Quote:
Satan is ... constantly pressing in the spurious--to lead away from the truth. The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Proverbs 29:18). Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remnant people in the true testimony.... The Publishing Ministry (1983), page 360, 361;Chapter Title: Circulating the Spirit of Prophecy Books

There will be a hatred kindled against the testimonies which is satanic. The workings of Satan will be to unsettle the faith of the churches in them, for this reason: Satan cannot have so clear a track to bring in his deceptions and bind up souls in his delusions if the warnings and reproofs and counsels of the Spirit of God are heeded.--1SM 48. (See 5T 675, 676.) The Publishing Ministry (1983), page 361, paragraph 1

In this way Satan led people who might have been a power for Christ to work on the enemy's side in the controversy, and to become agents whereby he instilled into the hearts of the people questioning, suspicion, doubt, and hatred. . . . Christ Triumphant (1999) , page 237, paragraph 4

Does anyone have any doubt about the significance of "the testimony of the Spirit of God" and "the testimonies"?

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Quoting Ellen White-- A life of conformity to the Christ-life can not be a life of disobedience to God's commands. The lawyer who questioned Christ concerning the law, in answering his own question, said, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." "Thou hast answered right," Christ said; "this do, and thou shalt live." Sin can not reign in the life of the one who loves God supremely. Obedience to God is the fruit borne by love. Christ is not at war with Christ, and love to our neighbor prevents us from working ill to him. "The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace." The law of God lays its claim upon the whole man. There is no period of time when the law does not make this demand upon every son and daughter of Adam.

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. "God is not a man, that He should lie." God's law is the rule of His government. He says, "This do, and thou shalt live." But to the disobedient He says, "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them." "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

There are only two classes in the world to-day, and only two classes will be recognized in the Judgment,--those who violate God's law, and those who keep His law. Two great opposing powers are revealed in the last great battle. On one side stands the Creator of heaven and earth. All on His side bear His signet. They are obedient to His commands. On the other side stands the Prince of darkness, with those who have chosen apostasy and rebellion.

When the judgment shall sit, and every one shall be judged by the things written in the books, the authority of God's law will be looked upon in a light altogether different from that in which it is now regarded by the Christian world. Satan has blinded their eyes and confused their understanding, as he blinded and confused Adam and Eve, and led them into transgression. The law of Jehovah is great, even as its Author is great. In the Judgment it will be recognized as holy, just, and good in all its requirements. Those who transgress this law will find that they have a serious account to settle with God; for His claims are decisive.

In the above paragraph Ellen White presents the demands of the law of God, showing that all mankind are sinners and in need of the Savior. She shows that in the final analysis all mankind will be divided between the wicked and the righteous-- between these who love righteousness and those who love sin. She shows how hard it is to live under the demands of the Old Covenant. It is utterly impossible to live a life of obedience and joy under such an agreement, for it requires strict, perfect obedience.

The following paragraphs present the gospel and show how we may be brought to the point where we obey God and His law. Christ has born our sin on his body. The demands of the law fall upon Christ and we are free from the law's penalty.

Quote:
Christ has borne our sins in His own body, and those who accept Him as a personal Saviour are free from the penalty of the law. Jesus has been made the propitiation for our sin, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. "Hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected. Hereby know we that we are in Him. He that saith he abideth in Him, ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked."

To the obedient child of God the commandments are a delight. David declares, "Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage forever: for they are the rejoicing of my heart. I have inclined my heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end. I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love. Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word. Depart from me, ye evil-doers: for I will keep the commandments of my God. . . . I am thy servant; give me understanding, that I may know thy testimonies."

Did the contempt shown to the law of God extinguish David's loyalty? Hear his words. He calls upon God to interfere and vindicate His honor, to show that there is a God, that there are limits to His forbearance. "It is time for thee, Lord, to work," he says, "for they have made void thy law."

David saw the divine precepts thrown aside, and obstinacy and rebellion increasing. But he was not swept away by the prevalence of apostasy. The scorn and contempt cast upon the law did not lead him to refrain from vindicating the law. On the contrary, his reverence for the law of Jehovah increased as he saw the disregard and contempt shown for it by others. "They have made void thy law," he exclaims. "Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold. Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way."

As man studies and contemplates the precious statutes of the Most High, as he meditates upon them, and realizes their value, he exclaims: "Thy testimonies are wonderful: therefore doth my soul keep them. The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple. . . . Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them."

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John317 There it is as clear as the noon day sun shining in its fullness for all to see. The spirit of Satan is behind many who want to oppress and oppose those who believe and teach the truth of God's Word and the writings of His Prophet Ellen White. Amen Brother!

"When the shaking comes, by the introduction of false theories, these surface readers, anchored nowhere, are like shifting sand. They slide into any position to suit the tenor of their feelings of bitterness. . . Daniel and Revelation must be studied, as well as the other prophecies of the Old and New Testaments. Let there be light, yes, light, in your dwellings. For this we need to pray. The Holy Spirit, shining upon the sacred page, will open our understanding, that we may know what is truth."-Testimonies to Ministers, 112:1.

"The enemy will bring in false theories, such as the doctrine that there is no sanctuary. This is one of the points on which there will be a departing from the faith." -Evangelism, 224:3.

2 - The shaking occurs when the truth is refused.

"There is to be a shaking among God's people; but this is not the present truth to carry to the churches. It will be the result of refusing the truth presented." -2 Selected Messages, 13:1.

"The Lord is soon to come. There must be a refining, winnowing process in every church, for there are among us wicked men who do not love the truth or honor God."-Review, March 19, 1895.

"Not having received the love of the truth, they will be taken in the delusions of the enemy; they will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils and will depart from the faith."-6 Testimonies, 401 :0.

3 - The rejection of the straight testimony brings the shaking.

"I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this is what will cause a shaking among God's people. "-Early Writings, 270:2.

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What teaching of hers do you consider the worst and most dangerous.

The main one? Her presentation of the law as it relates to the believer. The statement I quoted from the "Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 05-07-1901, is a perfect example.

Rob

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In my thinking, it's far better for a believer in God's prophet to say they have confidence in her than to give emphasis to the "errors" she supposedly makes. What spirit is behind all the doubts and questions about the Bible or about Ellen White? Who wants the church to reject her? Remember that "our prophet" said that the last deception would be a rejection of the testimonies and that it would be caused by a Satanic hatred. The same spirit that provoked the people of Israel to attack another prophet of God and test Christ in the wilderness so that over 14, 000 rebels died. 1 Cor. 10: 9; Numbers 16.

Scare tactics! Is kool Aid next?

Rob

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"Sin can not reign in the life of the one who loves God supremely. Obedience to God is the fruit borne by love....Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. "God is not a man, that He should lie." God's law is the rule of His government. He says, "This do, and thou shalt live." But to the disobedient He says, "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them." ....There are only two classes in the world to-day, and only two classes will be recognized in the Judgment,--those who violate God's law, and those who keep His law."

[Ellen White] shows how hard it is to live under the demands of the Old Covenant. It is utterly impossible to live a life of obedience and joy under such an agreement, for it requires strict, perfect obedience.

No, she doesn't "show" she puts us under "the Old Covenant"!!! She links these OC demands with statements like "Sin can not reign in the life of the one who loves God supremely" and "Obedience to God is the fruit borne by love". Then she says, "only two classes will be recognized in the Judgment,--those who violate God's law, and those who keep His law." Hence, "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them."

This is why the SDA church is so rigid and legalistic. There are way too many Pharisees within the denomination! Why? They have a prophet and by George they follow her every word without question. Again, pass the Kool Aid!

Rob

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"I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this is what will cause a shaking among God's people. "-Early Writings, 270:2.

Jack on Laodicea:

Now Laodicea does have something that is very, very valuable to her. It is the basis of our pride, even our denominational pride is based on that, and that is our righteousness. I want to give you an illustration: I was holding a lay-workers seminar there in Ethiopia. And it was a long seminar, it was three weeks. These were lay-farmers — most of the lay people there are farmers, peasant farmers — and certain times of the year, like I suppose in winter here, they do not have much work to do. So they have free time and we used to pull them in and give them some good Bible studies, and this was a three-week course. At the end of the second week, I got a telephone call from the Union Headquarters telling me that there was a leader of the church from the General Conference, from the Sabbath School Department, “Could you please step down and let him have the lay people for three days since they’re already there?”

So I thought, “Sure, no problem.” And he was trying to explain to them how to increase the Sabbath School offering. Now in Ethiopia they collect offerings with a bag connected to a stick, and they put it out because people sit very close together, it’s crowded. And he said, “That’s the worse thing to do, because you can put your hand in and pretend you are giving, and give nothing. Or you can put your hand in and take out money and nobody will know. What you need is an open plate. And it must have no felt on it, an open plate that makes a noise, so people can hear whether you’re giving copper or silver. And the deacons who collect the money must be the first ones to give, and they must show the people what they’re giving to set a good example. I guarantee you, the Sabbath School offering will increase.”

One of our dear sisters, a student at the University of Haile Selasie — it was closed down because of the Marxist Revolution — she stood up and said, “Elder, with all due respect to you, what you are teaching us sounds very much like the flesh. If we have the love of Christ, we will give.” The other lay-people said, “Amen.”

Of course, that made him annoyed, and he said to them, “Are you trying to tell me that you know the gospel and I don’t?”

She said, “No, but it doesn’t sound right to us.”

Well, he went and reported this problem to the president of the college, and the president of the college said, “Well, maybe what you are teaching is contradicting what Pastor Sequeira is teaching, so you need to see him!”

The president came and told me about it, even some of the lay people came and told me what had happened. You see, I wasn’t there, I had just stepped out and was letting him teach them. Well, I’ll tell you, he didn’t come to me and so the last day, the third day, I said to my wife, “Let’s invite him for supper, maybe in our home we can open up the subject.”

So we did invite him and he didn’t open up the subject, so I did. I wanted to clarify the issue. He wanted to rebuke me, but he did not do it directly so he did it through another man. He was telling me how terrible this man was, and, of course, the man was Morris Vendon. He said, “This man has all the young people in his hands, but what does he do with these incentives? He makes mockery out of them.”

I turned around to him and said, “Maybe Morris Vendon is right.”

Then he made a statement to me, which reflects very much on what we are studying, he said to me, “Are you saying to me that I have to give up 45 years of successful ministry for the Righteousness of Christ?”

I said, “That is what it may cost you.”

Folks, it is not easy when you have had tremendous success in the Christian life to give it up for the Righteousness of Christ; it’s very expensive. I want to give you an example. Please turn to Philippians 3. You see, the thing is this, the more success you have, the harder it is. And I want to turn to a man who was very successful, because what God is saying to Laodicea, “You must give up your self-righteousness which you think has made you rich, you must give it up, in exchange for My Righteousness.”

Before we look at Philippians 3, let me read a couple of statements from the pen of Ellen G. White to give you a background:

“The people of God are represented in the message to the Laodiceans as in a position of carnal (which is another word for fleshly) security. They are at ease, believing themselves to be in an exalted condition of spiritual attainment.” [3T 252]

“I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen (The angel of the Lord showed Ellen G. White in vision that there would be a shaking in this church) and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans....”

What is the counsel? “To buy from Me” these three things.

“...This will have its affect on the heart of the receiver and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony, they will rise up against it and this will cause a shaking among God’s people.” [1T 181]

It happened in 1888, it will happen today, folks. Then the next statement, which is related to this same issue, Testimonies to Ministers, pages 64-65 (remember, they’re the angels of Laodicea):

“They (referring to ministers) are not willing to be deprived of the garment of their own self-righteousness. (“We worked hard for this; why should we give it up?”) They are not willing to exchange (which is another word for “buying”) their own righteousness, which is unrighteousness, for the righteousness of Christ, which is pure unadulterated truth.

Which is “not I, but Christ” — no mixture of self in it.

So please remember this is the issue. Now I want to turn to this example, and that is Philippians 3. If there was anyone in the Jewish church, which was famous for self-righteousness, who had a claim to a wonderful success, it was Paul before his conversion. And in verse 4, 5, and 6 He puts in a nutshell what he had attained, number one by birth, number two as a Pharisee, and by performance. Verse 6:

...As for zeal, persecuting the church...

“Regarding zeal for God (that’s what he means), I persecuted the church.”

In other words, “I was on fire for you, God, and when I persecuted the church, I was not doing it in rebellion towards You, in my mind I was serving You.”

As for legalistic righteousness, [i was] faultless. But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ.

He was willing to give up all his success for Christ’s righteousness. And that is “buying.” He goes on to say in verse 8:

What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things...

Please notice, it does involve suffering, it does hurt our pride, individually, and denominationally. But it says clearly (verses 8-9):

I consider them rubbish [dung or refuse], that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law [i.e., the works of the law], but that which is through faith in Christ — the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

Please notice there are two “righteousnesses” in verse 9: (1) his righteousness, which he had attained by much effort and tremendous success, and (2) God’s righteousness, which is yours by faith alone. He had to give up one for the other. This, folks, is the price. It is a costly price. As our brother said in Ethiopia, “Do you want me to give up 45 years of successful ministry?”

Yes folks, God wants you to give up everything. He wants us to give up our opinion about ourselves, He wants us to give up all that we thought was profit, because it was not, and we must turn to Christ as our Righteousness, both in terms of justification and also sanctification. We must be clear: the 1888 message did not preach only justification as the Righteousness of Christ. Both. The formula for Justification, the formula for Sanctification is the same: “Not I, but Christ.” That is the expensive price. So I’ve spent some time on the word “buy” because that’s the key word in Revelation 3:18.

Are you willing to give up your self-opinion, and all the success that has given you (“stars in your crown”)? Are you willing to give it up for the Righteousness of Christ? That is the price we have to pay.

This folks, is what will produce the shaking, and there will be some who will not be willing to give up, especially those who have had success. And I’ll tell you about the people who have had success: normally they’re people with very strong wills. You see, people with strong wills have a tremendous success. I don’t know how many of you have attended a Five-Day Non-Smoking program. You will notice that people with strong wills have more success than those who have weak wills. Very often it is these strong-willed people who give you a hard time in committee meetings. And they give you a very hard time in discipline committees. They come down hard upon people. They say, “Look, I had no problem with this. I was a heavy smoker and I gave it up; it was nothing. Why are these people having such a problem?”

Well, folks, all our success is filthy rags. In other words, what we think is very valuable to us, which is self-righteousness, please remember, in God’s eyes it is filthy rags. And if you want a text, look at Isaiah 64:6. Isaiah was talking to a people who had a similar problem. Let me read it to you:

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Please notice that by nature we are unclean and, because of that, “all our righteous acts are like filthy rags.”

So remember, in God’s eyes our righteousness is as filthy rags. Now I want to turn back to Revelation 3:18 and examine those three items, the three items of merchandise from heaven that are offered to Laodicea if she is only willing to buy or to exchange.

The first is gold tried by fire.

What is this gold tried by fire? What is it? I want you to turn to 1 Peter and let’s get a clue. 1 Peter 1:7, because here we have a clue from the Bible. Let’s read verse 6 also to get the whole impact:

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

Are you being discouraged by “all kinds of trials”? Peter is trying to give you some comfort. Verse 7:

These have come so that your faith — of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire — may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

The words, “gold refined by fire,” in the Hebrew thinking, in the Old Testament, is simply “purified faith,” faith that has been purified. And in the New Testament, that faith that has been purified is known as “the faith of Jesus Christ,” because the faith of Jesus was purified.

You remember in Gethsemane, if you read Mark 14:32 onwards, three times Jesus prayed to His Father, “Father, please remove the cup, nevertheless not My will but Thine.” He did not allow self to have any part in His ministry. And every dross of self was crucified in the life of Christ. Now when we first accept Christ our faith is egocentric. In other words, we accept Christ because we’re either afraid of punishment or because we want to go to heaven. That’s the normal basis of accepting Christ. But what Christ wants to do is to purify this faith from its egocentric motivation. He wants us to have what Paul says in Galatians 5:6. He wants us to have “faith which is motivated by love.” And that’s the process, that’s the growth that He wants us to have.

I would like to read at this time three or four statements by Ellen G. White which are dealing with this:

“Faith and love are golden treasures, elements that are greatly wanting among God’s people....”

Don’t we have faith? Yes, we have faith, but it is ego-centric faith. We must give this up for the faith that is of Christ, the faith that is motivated by love, the selfish faith for Christ’s faith.

“...Unbelief is closing their eyes so that they are ignorant of their true condition. The True Witness does describe their blindness.” [3T 255]

“The gold tried in the fire is faith which works by love. (Which is a quotation from Galatians 5:6.) Only this can bring us into harmony with God. We may be active, we may do much work, but without love, such love as dwelt in the heart of Christ, we can never be numbered with the family of heaven.” [COL 158]

In other words, we can never reflect the character of Christ. So there has to be a growth here. Now please remember, we must be careful when we read this that we don’t read in the context of Justification. She’s talking here in terms of the evidence of Justification which must be reflected more and more, the life of Christ.

“The gold here recommended as being tried in the fire is faith and love. It makes the heart rich for it has been purged until it is pure and the more it is tested the more brilliant is its lustre.”

Please notice, it is faith that “has been purged.” Purged of what? Of self.

“Love to God is the very foundation of religion. To engage in His service merely from hope of reward or fear of punishment (which is the basis of self-righteousness) would avail nothing.”

These are statements that clearly point out that “gold tried in the fire” is “faith which worketh by love.” So that is what Christ is offering us. He says, “I want to offer you My faith, which is motivated by love, rather than your faith which is egocentric.”

The second item that He’s offering us is white clothes (or “raiment” in some translations). What is white raiment? The Righteousness of Christ. Imputed or imparted? Both! Let me give you a couple of texts; let me first of all give you the imputed Righteousness of Christ, i.e., it is imputed righteousness which qualifies us for heaven. Please remember that. It is not imputed Righteousness plus imparted Righteousness that qualifies for heaven. Imputed Righteousness is what qualifies us for heaven. Turn to Romans 9, and please remember that imputed Righteousness is something that is done outside of us, what was accomplished in the holy history of Christ. Romans 9:30 up to the end. And I want you to look at something here that is very much linked with the Laodicean message. Remember what He says in Revelation 3:18?

I counsel you to buy from me ... white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness....

Please keep that in mind as we look at Romans 9:30:

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith...

So here’s the Gentiles which sought righteousness by faith. Verse 31:

...but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.

So here are two groups of people. The Gentiles accepted Christ as their Righteousness; the Jews tried it by keeping the law. Two different methods, old and new covenants. Who succeeded and who failed? The Gentiles succeeded and the Jews failed. Why did they fail? Verse 32:

Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”

And that is something that we must keep in mind. What Paul is saying here is that there can be no mixture of Christ our Righteousness and self-righteousness. It’s either one or the other. You can’t blend the two together. The moment you accept Christ’s Righteousness, you must give up self-righteousness. The moment you uphold self-righteousness, Christ’s Righteousness becomes a stumbling block, an offense to you. Now look at verse 33:

As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion [which is another term for Israel] a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall...”

It is a rock of offense to whom? To the poor in spirit or to the self-righteous? The self-righteous.

“...and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Please notice, if you “buy the white clothes” you “will not be ashamed” because “you will be clothed.” And you may remember that I read you a statement from the Spirit of Prophecy (by Ellen G. White) that “self-righteousness is not the wedding garment.” If you try to go to heaven by your righteousness you will appear what? Naked. Why? Because in the judgment, God doesn’t look only at the act, He will look at the motive. And self-righteousness is always motivated by self. That’s why it’s called self-righteousness. So please remember that the white raiment is the Righteousness of Christ imputed. It is also the Righteousness of Christ imparted. Now turn to Revelation 19:7-8. These verses are in the context of the last days, it’s dealing with the same people, the last generation of Christians:

Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.

Christ has been waiting for years to reproduce His character in His bride, that she may be ready. How did she make herself ready? Verse 8:

Fine linen, bright and clean [there’s the white raiment], was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

Is it something they have produced, or is it something that they are experiencing? Is it something that they have produced? No! It is the righteousness of saints because it is the righteousness of Christ imparted to the saints. Please notice:

Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear....

Who clothes her? Christ. By the way, it’s this text that led the western world to have a white garment for a wedding dress for the bride. It symbolized purity. They are changing these days, and they have good reason to do that.

I want to read a statement here from Testimonies, Volume 4, by Ellen G. White. Just notice how she puts it in terms of 1888:

“Fearful is the power of self-deception on the human mind. What blindness, setting light for darkness, and darkness for light. The True Witness counsels us to buy of Him gold tried in the fire, white raiment, and eye salve. The gold here recommended as having been tried in the fire is faith and love, it makes the heart rich for it has been purged until it is pure. And the more it is tested the more brilliant is its lustre. The white raiment is purity of character, the Righteousness of Christ imparted to the sinner....”

That’s how she defines the white clothes in this Laodicean message.

“...This indeed is a garment of heavenly texture (you did not produce it, it’s of heavenly texture) that can be bought only of Christ for a life of willing obedience....”

And if you look at the context, what she means is not willing obedience in the sense of our obedience. “Willing obedience” means I am willing to say, “Not I,” that’s my obedience, so that I may receive the Righteousness of Christ. The price I pay is “Not I.” In exchange Christ gives me His righteousness. Then she goes on to that third item:

“The eye salve is that wisdom and grace that enables us to discern between evil and good and to detect sin under any guise.” [4T 88]

Do you know self-righteousness is sin? But it doesn’t appear as sin. It looks good. But this eye salve makes us see it without any guise. Now please, going back to the scripture itself. Christ is offering us white raiment that we may be clothed. What is the context of the Laodicean message? “I know your deeds.” So please notice, the context is, “I know your deeds.” Is it hot? Is it cold? Is it lukewarm? He wants our works to be hot. How can our works be hot? The imparted Righteousness of Christ. So the context is works, that’s the key phrase of the passage. So God is offering us not only imputed righteousness that we may be clothed in the judgement and not appear naked, but that we may also be clothed in our experience, that Christ may be able to be reflected through us.

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Originally Posted By: John317
In my thinking, it's far better for a believer in God's prophet to say they have confidence in her than to give emphasis to the "errors" she supposedly makes. What spirit is behind all the doubts and questions about the Bible or about Ellen White? Who wants the church to reject her? Remember that "our prophet" said that the last deception would be a rejection of the testimonies and that it would be caused by a Satanic hatred. The same spirit that provoked the people of Israel to attack another prophet of God and test Christ in the wilderness so that over 14, 000 rebels died. 1 Cor. 10: 9; Numbers 16.

Scare tactics! Is kool Aid next?

Rob

Cultic Tactics are those that 'force' people to accept beliefs without checking to see if the message is compatible with scripture as we are instructed by our prophet.

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Good Post Rob.

I particularly found the quote below to be very important to fully understand:

Quote:
"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away."
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Good sermon from Jack.

It amazes me how much the traditional SDA message centers around EGW

Here we have a blip of years in the history of the Christian church. An isolated 19th century North American woman who most of the known world didn't and still doesn't know about, and yet we are told by many in the church that:

- EGW needs to be a test of fellowship in the church

- A rejection of EGW is a rejection of the Holy Spirit

- Her inspiration and words carry the same weight and authority as the scriptures for it is the same Holy Spirit that has given them. They are messages from God

- A rejection of EGW will bring on the last day shaking which will make many forfeit their salvation for they are separating themselves from the last day messages of God

Folks, where is the blood of Christ here? Where is the salvation of grace through faith, through Christ alone here?

NO prophet, even the great ones of the OT EVER were given power and authority over the minds and beliefs of the people. EGW is given much more authority and much more clout, even becoming an indirect issue of salvation should she be rejected.

Take a step back, John and Messenger, and really see what you are doing and what you are saying. EGW would have a cornary over not just the secularization of the church today but the glorification of the SOP.

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I appreciate your focus on the Blood of Jesus guilbox.

But referring to your list above ...

You forgot one aspect. "Those that reject EGW are expected to go into homosexuality." It is a common mantra of the extreme conservatives. If you don't believe as they do ... "you will resort to Homosexuality eventually."

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Originally Posted By: Redwood
So, would you suggest that each time we sin ... that we be rebaptized with this kind of theory?

Quote:
When one has been baptized into Christ, rebaptism is called for only if there has been a definite apostasy from the beliefs and standards that fellowship with Christ requires" (6 BC 373).

This is a subject which each individual must conscientiously take his position upon in the fear of God. This subject should be carefully presented in the spirit of tenderness and love. Then the duty of urging belongs to no one but God; give God a chance to work with His Holy Spirit upon the minds, so that the individual will be perfectly convinced and satisfied in regard to this advanced step. A spirit of controversy and contention should never be allowed to come in and prevail on this subject. Do not take the Lord's work out of His hands into your own hands. Those who have conscientiously taken their position upon the commandments of God, will, if rightly dealt with, accept all essential truth. But it needs wisdom to deal with human minds. Some will be longer in seeing and understanding some kindred truths than others, especially will this be the case in regard to the subject of rebaptism, but there is a divine hand that is leading them--a divine spirit impressing their hearts, and they will know what they ought to do and do it. Evangelism (1946), page 373, paragraph 2

I don't have time or energy to address each and every quote of your's but I will state that the first quote here is just the opinion of some unknown author but it is not Ellen White.

The second quote is simply EGW saying that the spirit should tell them what they 'ought' to do.

I would not hang my hat on anything here. It is certainly not an endorsement from scripture ... rather some vague theories from some unknown author.

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Cultic Tactics are those that 'force' people to accept beliefs without checking to see if the message is compatible with scripture as we are instructed by our prophet.

The way I was taught is that if you reject EGW you will forfeit heaven.

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So I would say that whoever taught you that was very misinformed. Don't take that out on EGW she would never have approved of that Rob. I was also taught similar things by very well meaning people. It takes all kinds. And God loves them to, and died for them none the less. I myself have no problem with EGW. I just keep her in context, and try not to over think or under think. She has her place in Gods heart.

pk

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The way I have been taught is that if you reject EGW you may forfeit heaven because you will not have the added benefit of the messages especially for our time, not because God refuses to save those who do not accept her. There is a reason God chose to give us these messages after the Bible. I think there will be other prophets in the last days. Will we recognize them?

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