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Tom Wetmore

Original thoughts forum - one rule only (Or how this all started...)

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Tom Wetmore

It is good to know you are thinking about this as evidenced by the questions you have raised.

The idea is a work in progress. While a bit of hyperbole may have been used here to make the point, in practice applying common sense to the concept will be helpful.

The biggest bugaboo to be avoided on the original thoughts forum is primarily twofold: 1.) no cutting and pasting from another source to make a point; and 2.) within the context of the immediate thread itself, no cutting and pasting from another post, either as an unedited block of the whole former post or chopping it up dissecting it and feeding it back bit by bit.

The objective of the second point is to force the writer to think about it enough to connect the prior thought to his own new added thought in a more conversational or normal writing format that flows more naturally. That might involve a simple reference back by a word or two or simply picking up the train of thought. In normal conversation it would be very annoying to have everyone repeat everything or substantial portions of what had just been said previously before making their own point. The dissecting cut and paste approach easily devolves into an argument.

A huge objective of the new thoughts forum is to add something of value to what has already been said not to reduce, rip apart and destroy what others say as is so typical in an argument. Consider it a building process with each person bringing their own bricks to add to the whole discussion as apposed to a demolition project where everyone comes armed with sledge hammers and crowbars to pry apart and smash everyone else's thoughts in order build on the resulting rubble of their defeated opponent. The hope is that it becomes a cooperative process rather than a competitive one. That builds friendship and camaraderie. Argument and debate tends to drive people apart and destroy friendships.

The first point above is simply that cutting and pasting is lazy and seldom requires much real personal thought of the poster. They are just regurgitating someone else's idea. Leaving a short reference or link is enough to allow the really interested person to go read for themselves. If someone else's idea conveys what you are really thinking, try to put it in your own words.

While my initial thoughts suggested avoiding any paraphrasing, what I meant was that it needs to be enough to pass a typical academic plagiarizing filter. Simply rearranging a few words or changing a couple phrases so that it is technically not a direct quote is not acceptable. But taking the idea, completely putting it in your own words, editing, rearranging order, etc., with some additional thoughts or points makes it new and fresh and your own work product. It is like a basic premise of copyright law. Ideas are not copyrighted, the expression of them is. Doing a real and allowable paraphrase requires you to really think about what was originally said to be able to convey the idea in a new way. Ask Jerry Thomas. To do it well is not easy.

Tom

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Lineman

I think the one main rule should be like you said above, we should bring our own thoughts (bricks) to build on rather than to destroy what has been said.

Seems to me that if someone has said something "smart" and has already worded it very well, as you have done above, maybe we should not try to reword or restate it? But I do like the idea of adding to what has been said.

When a group of people set out to build something usually they have a plan as to what they want to create. Do you see our adding one "brick" onto another as building something that is actually good for us or only something different?

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Tom Wetmore

I don't see it as just something different. I see real benefit in a more constructive process of exploring ideas. Being a critic is a easy task. Some would like to think that offering critical analysis would encourage the other person to rethink and maybe reconsider what they say and come back with a better idea or even change their mind. But I seldom, if ever, see that happening here. Argument simply boxes others into a defensive posture where they stubbornly dig in their heels and maintain the same point of view and calcifies their resolve against seeing things any other way.

But it requires actual thinking to take an idea and build on it, expand it and add value in a constructive way. It is the thinking that I want people to do. So much of what gets posted strikes me as having engaged a minimal amount of brain power.

It's like a think tank or a true out-of-the-box brainstorming session. If you have ever participated in such a creative process of coming up with something new where no idea is too far-fetched to put on the table and no idea gets shot down. The ideas start to fly thick and fast. At some point, a really great idea stands out, head and shoulders above the rest. But the rest are still on the table with out bruises. They are just left behind or held for another day or further development later.

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LifeHiscost

I But the rest are still on the table with out bruises. They are just left behind or held for another day or further development later.

Since I am boxed in by the way or the what or the where or the how an idea is presented, I am left only with my opinions as the most that can be offered. Those opinions are no more nor less valid than any other fallible opinion. Therefore the necessity to rely upon greater Wisdom already established, that is without equivocation, Whose foundation is sure and without peer and will not change as other opinions are later presented.

BTW, have you seen or heard some of the most recent scientific, archaeological, astrological, theological, and physical evidences being presented as of late? These not only disprove some of the greatest principles of past generations that have been relied upon for establishing "evident reality", but also reveal how our present civilizations have been led into disastrous goals that have wreaked havoc upon millions who believed in men, who had feet of clay, as having the "way" of salvation.

Regards! peace

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LifeHiscost

(BTW-That brings up an interesting point, how are you going to keep track of what everyone has already heard there?)

You make a lot of very good points, Lineman. Don't you feel great when you recognize that Jesus doesn't make you fit into the philosophy or theology of others, but is willing to allow you to pursue the path in which the Holy Spirit guides you?

OTOH He also allows all others the same freedom and I'm glad of that also, as it lets all accept responsibility for their own choices.

Then, of course, it's good to give those choices we've made, to Jesus. He may just wash them in His blood and put us on a sure path.

"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." John 14:6 NASB

Blessings! peace

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Bravus

But almost all of Lineman's points are based on a misunderstanding of the goals and approaches of the new forum. It's as though people have trouble with reading comprehension. I'm not trying to be mean, but it gets frustrating. None of those things you raise, Lineman, are going to happen, because we all recognise that 'there is nothing new under the sun'.

What is forbidden - *all* that is forbidden - is using quotes to either bring in text from outside (which can, however, be referenced, e.g. Matthew 7:12 or GC p. 248 etc.) or earlier comments from other posters (which can likewise be referenced, e.g. 'As Jim was saying in an earlier post, we tend to think that...').

That's it. It's *really* not that complicated.

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Bravus

PS, LifeHisCost, I should make it very clear that as far as I know (can't speak for Tom) this iniative was *not* aimed at you and at your style of posting. I know that, although I am occasionally frustrated by your posts because I would be interested to know what *you* think, in general I very much appreciate your posts because they bring new Scripture to the question and inform the debate. I'm absolutely happy for you to keep posting that way in every one of the more than 100 forums other than the Original Thoughts forum, and will read your posts with enjoyment.

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Woody

Oh my Bravus ... LifeHisCost is "blantantly and intentionally" disobeying the rules by posting John 14:6 NASB and Ezekiel 3:11 KJV and Proverbs 21:2 NASB and Ecclesiastes 1:9 NIV on four different posts. And yet no snide comments and no deletions?

And after all this time ... when the rules have been so clear and so easy.

But no outcry? Stand up and be heard. Don't be timid.

Well that is my original thought for the day.

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Lineman

I'm starting to think that one of the rules needed is a ban on what is termed "fire-hosing" another persons idea. Someone has already said it here that we need to build on and add to what has been said, not slam it or make fun of it or drag it through the dirt. (Sorry, I guess I said almost the same thing last night, but I really didn't mean to. I just went back are reread what I had written. Oops, my bad.)

I love the idea of using a thread here as a "think tank" where you can really say what is on your heart, knowing that you will not be "laughed at". I for one, though, appreciate it when someone places a quote in the forum because I do not like having to leave the forum just to look something up. (Maybe I'm just lazy?) OTH, I really dislike reading something over and over. In fact, most of the time I just skip the quotes unless I need them. Really though, isn't that what our brains are for, weeding out the unwanted?

Bravus, I'm thinking that this idea was aimed at me and what I posted a few days ago, "Food Riots, Tax Rebellions By 2012 ...". That article was not meant to keep dragging the issue of scaring people, but I really wanted to know what people thought of that post. I got it from my dad. Just trying again to look at all sides. I was thinking that maybe I would see it in a new light, find something NEW.

Back to our topic here. I really like the idea of a "Think Tank" right here in this thread. I am just wondering what others use as their "rules"? Maybe we should take a look before we "reinvent the wheel".

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Lineman

I searched for "think tank rules" and here are a couple of links:

http://academic.regis.edu/volunteer/ivan/sect03/sect03e.htm

This set of rules seems to have the basics, as long as you can leave out the comments related to volunteering. The two main processes seem to be understanding the "why" and the "what if" of ideas.

http://thinktank.wpi.edu/Rules

This set of rules seems to be related mostly to long posts/submissions, but two rules stand out. One is kind of what Tom has already said:

Articles and links that have already been uploaded previously will not be approved a second time. .

There other is actually a short list of unwanted items:

Articles will not be approved if they contain any of the following:

Crude language

Vulgar content or mention of any illegal activities

Disrespectful remarks

Gross spelling or grammatical errors

Clearly unverified statements

What do you think Tom, want to start a brand new thread and state the rules for us? I have never been involved in a "think tank" and find it appealing to imagine. I think we should try it. Do you have something in mind to start us out?

Stan, if this actually gets going you might have to move it into it's own "box".

excited

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Woody

Quote:
I for one, though, appreciate it when someone places a quote in the forum because I do not like having to leave the forum just to look something up. (Maybe I'm just lazy?)

That's great. And you can have that on all the other forum here. But this forum has decided to ban such quotes. I can verify this as having my small quotes deleted. What I find interesting is the selective allowing of some quotes such as what LifeHisCost has done in four of his posts.

Perhaps the moderator could clarify what quotes he allows and what selection process he goes through to allow said quotes. Or does LifeHisCost just have a free pass?

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Lineman

Maybe "Tom Wetmore" and "LifeHisCost" are the same person and he gets to do what he wants? Actually I didn't know that there were set rules yet, only that we were talking about them. I am surprised that some quotes have already been deleted.

catslap

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LifeHiscost

PS, LifeHisCost, I should make it very clear that as far as I know (can't speak for Tom) this iniative was *not* aimed at you and at your style of posting. I know that, although I am occasionally frustrated by your posts because I would be interested to know what *you* think, in general I very much appreciate your posts because they bring new Scripture to the question and inform the debate. I'm absolutely happy for you to keep posting that way in every one of the more than 100 forums other than the Original Thoughts forum, and will read your posts with enjoyment.

Thank you for clarifying the point, Bravus. Although I happen to see myself as a loose cannon, I do know that the style can grate against the preferences of others. Recently I withdrew from a Sabbath group because I perceived the person/s in charge felt there was too much contention caused by putting forth ideas foremost from the Scriptures.

I recall another illustrious figure Who ran into this problem also and I do believe this is going to be a greater and greater problem, especially as we see the day of the Lord drawing closer. As a primary example we can already see any public reference to certain aberrant human behavior being legislated as hate crimes in various places in the U.S.

As to what I think, I do feel safe in saying I think the ideas presented from particular Scriptures defines the principle/s (or sometimes lack)of good conduct as espoused by the Creator.

And I also think that what I think personally is of little consequence in establishing foundational truth, especially if it is revealed to contradict or conflict with readily understood Scripture.

God Bless! peace

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Woody

I think it is all in the presentation.

If one presents scripture as 'thus says the Lord' ... THIS is what the Word of God says. When in reality ... you are saying that scripture says what your particular interpretation is.

OR ... we can say ... this is 'one' way to look at the subject and then quote scripture. OR ... this is the way I interpret the issue from this particular text.

It is the dogmatic quoting of scripture that drives people away from it.

Patience Humility and Tolerance goes a long ways ....

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Bravus

Just a quick one here:

1. I'm not the moderator of this thread and neither is Tom Wetmore - this is part of the Town Hall forum and is therefore moderated by John317.

2. As I understand it, the 'no quotes' rules applies to the new Original Thoughts forum, but not to this thread *about* that forum in Town Hall. As such there's no inconsistency between removing your quotes there, Redwood, and allowing LifeHisCost's quotes here.

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