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Kingdom of Adventistan

2 Tenets of Atheism


Gail

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to hold the poster up as an icon of virtue!

Honestly Mark! :)

I would rather deal with an honest Roman officer who did not have all the correct theology or no theology at all than a proud Pharisee.

Would you not? :)

sky

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If Rich can't deal with those of us who aren't quite as thoughtful or quick as he is at least he can be a respectful and patient teacher.I respect his right to believe and espouse his beliefs,I am not required to accept them myself. I do not respect his right to demean the inadequacies of others in the name of tolerance.
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tenants = people who live in rented accommodation

tenets = articles of belief

bwink

You got me there. I guess I have been renting atheism all along. Maybe that can be a new definition for agnosticism.

Agnostics = We choose to rent instead of buy.

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[Here is your quote...

Originally Posted By: doug yowell
using Jefferson to argue for the tenants of athiesm is intellectually dishonest.

Number one you need to provide evidence that there are actually tenants of atheism.

Number two, you need to provide evidence that I was using Jefferson to argue for these non-existant tenants.

If you read what I posted I stated that Jefferson respected the philosophy of Jesus but denied his Divinity. And while Jefferson is a Deist, he was an atheist toward the god of the Bible. That is, he didn't believe that Jesus was Devine or that the OT was a description of God. I didn't make that up. I am simply reporting what is written about Thomas Jefferson.

If I am being intellectually dishonest I want to know and I will correct it. But you have to provide some kind of evidence that you are talking from a factual understanding of Jefferson, Deism, and atheism.

I thank you for your clarity on these points and I DO admit I was wrong. I know what atheism is and I know what deism is so I needed no more research on what they are. I did not however,do enough study on the deism of Jefferson. You are absolutely right that he didn't believe in the divinity of any of the Bible though he thought it the best expositor of human virtue and morals. So your description of him as an atheist towards the god of the Bible,if taken in that sense, is right on and my innacurate view of Jefferson was.....inacurate.If,as you say,atheism has only one tenant (and I fully agree despite the title of the thread)then the only reasonable conclusion would be that Jefferson,as he repeatedly attempted to explain,was not an atheist in the definitional sense of the word so his view of the Bible cannot be used to question the existence of any God. Are you arguing for the validity of atheism or for the rejection of the Bible God?
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[That's how I do it, because I don't want to be caught in the position where I can't defend my opinion from a factual and truthful basis. I am not an agnostic because that's where I want to be. I am agnostic because I can't find enough evidence to believe what you believe.

I respect that. That's fair enough.
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Are you arguing for the validity of atheism or for the rejection of the Bible God?

Without speaking for Rich (well, I guess I am actually), he has said he is agnostic toward gods generally but atheist toward the God of the Bible. I guess his point was that Jefferson seems to have shared that position, but the work everyone involved has now done in clarifying the distinctions is very useful, IMO.

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I wish there was a loving god that would reveal himself and express a plan to help humanity along the way. I just don't see any evidence that the bible describes such a plan or that the bible has an all knowing Divine author behind the scenes.

What is your most reasonable explanation as to how humanity came to be in the first place? Even a Deist like Jefferson believed in an intelligent designer.Are you there yet?
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I thank you for your clarity on these points and I DO admit I was wrong. I know what atheism is and I know what deism is so I needed no more research on what they are. I did not however,do enough study on the deism of Jefferson. You are absolutely right that he didn't believe in the divinity of any of the Bible though he thought it the best expositor of human virtue and morals. So your description of him as an atheist towards the god of the Bible,if taken in that sense, is right on and my innacurate view of Jefferson was.....inacurate.If,as you say,atheism has only one tenant (and I fully agree despite the title of the thread)then the only reasonable conclusion would be that Jefferson,as he repeatedly attempted to explain,was not an atheist in the definitional sense of the word so his view of the Bible cannot be used to question the existence of any God. Are you arguing for the validity of atheism or for the rejection of the Bible God?

Doug,

I am very grateful for your response. My opinion of you just went up 1000 percent.

I am an agnostic. Which means, not knowing.

I am a non-believer (atheist) in terms of the god of the Bible.

I could be very satisfied the Deism of Jefferson. It functions practically the same as agnosticism since the god of Deism really has little input into the daily affairs of humanity.

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Originally Posted By: cardw

I wish there was a loving god that would reveal himself and express a plan to help humanity along the way. I just don't see any evidence that the bible describes such a plan or that the bible has an all knowing Divine author behind the scenes.

What is your most reasonable explanation as to how humanity came to be in the first place? Even a Deist like Jefferson believed in an intelligent designer.Are you there yet?

I think there is sufficient evidence that some form of evolution is present in the universe, but I don't use evolution as an explanation of first cause.

While Jefferson says there was a creator or intelligent designer, I have to say that I can't determine that. There are too many other equally plausible explanations of first cause including that there was never a first cause, but that the universe has always been.

But like Jefferson, I see no evidence that, if there was a creator god, this god interferes with the affairs of humanity. I believe and function as if I am responsible for my life and its affect on others around me. I like Jefferson's form of humanism and I have confidence the each person has the ability to do good in the world and to enjoy this life.

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In relation to what you said there, one of my daughter's friends posted the following on Facebook the other day:

Quote:
there's a being who knows everything about you. knows what you do every second of every day. knows what's in the deepest depths of your heart. with the power to change your life in an instant, in almost any way you could possibly imagine. given time that being can help you become smarter, stronger, more attractive and provide you with the courage to see through your darkest moments. that being, is you.
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In relation to what you said there, one of my daughter's friends posted the following on Facebook the other day:

Quote:
there's a being who knows everything about you. knows what you do every second of every day. knows what's in the deepest depths of your heart. with the power to change your life in an instant, in almost any way you could possibly imagine. given time that being can help you become smarter, stronger, more attractive and provide you with the courage to see through your darkest moments. that being, is you.

That is an amazing awareness to have.

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In relation to what you said there, one of my daughter's friends posted the following on Facebook the other day:

Quote:
there's a being who knows everything about you. knows what you do every second of every day. knows what's in the deepest depths of your heart. with the power to change your life in an instant, in almost any way you could possibly imagine. given time that being can help you become smarter, stronger, more attractive and provide you with the courage to see through your darkest moments. that being, is you.
Other than the fact that the Bible says the opposite, I find this analysis rather warped.The soldier in the midst of combat never turns to his self to gain courage for the upcoming battle.And "more attractive"??? I've tried that one and I can attest that it doesn't work!!
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Originally Posted By: Bravus
In relation to what you said there, one of my daughter's friends posted the following on Facebook the other day:

"there's a being who knows everything about you. knows what you do every second of every day. knows what's in the deepest depths of your heart. with the power to change your life in an instant, in almost any way you could possibly imagine. given time that being can help you become smarter, stronger, more attractive and provide you with the courage to see through your darkest moments. that being, is you."

Other than the fact that the Bible says the opposite, I find this analysis rather warped.The soldier in the midst of combat never turns to his self to gain courage for the upcoming battle.And "more attractive"??? I've tried that one and I can attest that it doesn't work!!

Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

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[Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
"Charm is deceitful and beauty is passing..."(Prov.31:30)Ya don't have to be much of a wise man to figure that one out! Whoever originated that other all-powerful being needs to live a few more years.
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"There's a being who knows everything about you, knows what you do every second of every day, knows what's in the deepest depths of your heart, with the power to change your life in an instant, in almost any way you could possibly imagine, given time that being can help you become smarter, stronger, more attractive and provide you with the courage to see through your darkest moments, that being, is you."

_____________________________

On the contrary, we know soooo little about ourselves, let alone what is in the deepest depths of our hearts! And it is undeniable that as mere mortals we cannot change our lives in almost any way we can imagine! How we wish! True we may make decisions that will affect our lives and other's lives like getting an education that will get us "smarter," we may pay closer attention to our physical education which will make us physically stronger, more attractive,,, and all that may seemingly help us through our darkest moments, but we cannot change our hearts. Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here they are powerless. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but they cannot change the heart, they cannot purify the springs of life. There must be a new life from above, a power from within, before we can be changed and that power is Christ. His grace alone can quicken the lifeless faculties of the soul, and attract it to God, to holiness.

Cardw, you say you have looked for evidences of a loving God. You need not look any longer. Look at your own heart. Your heart is a muscle and yet it beats independently of your will and that is why our teachers told us that the heart is an involuntary muscle. It is involuntary as far as the human will is concerned but the heart cannot beat once without a command! It is said that there are about 500 muscles in the human body and every one of these muscles will not contract unless it receives a command from the will. That is a fact. But the heart contracts without our will! There must be another will that makes the heart beat and that will is the will of God!

The only book that teaches this is the Bible. "In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28. "In Him all things hold together." Colossians 1:17. (are we allowed to quote the Bible?)

In other words, all created beings live by the will and power of God. God's throne is in Heaven; yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present, working in and through all, moving in all things according to His will. He has an intimate knowledge of and a personal interest in all the works of His hand. He knows us far more than we know ourselves. He knows us perfectly and He cares about us. But tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning His character, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with men.

sky

When we go to sleep, we continue breathing and this happens totally without the human will... when we are awake we even breathe without thinking... our whole being is under the supervision of God.

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Yet he holds no particular animosity against Christians or against God that I know of. He just doesn't talk religion. He and my brother are about the closest atheists that I know of.

There are many atheists who fit into this category. My best friend's dad was one of them. A genuine wonderful human being,supportive of his family's beliefs, but with no interest in joining in their faith.Though raised in an SDA environment by a wonderful, loving mother,His oldest son is today an atheist activist (my definition of one who openly tries to tear down the faith of others),while his daughter and other son are dedicated Christians.On the other hand, there are "believers in God" who actually hate Him ("if you love me...").
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Cardw, you say you have looked for evidences of a loving God. You need not look any longer. Look at your own heart. Your heart is a muscle and yet it beats independently of your will and that is why our teachers told us that the heart is an involuntary muscle. It is involuntary as far as the human will is concerneced but the heart cannot beat once without a command! It is said that there are about 500 muscles in the human body and every one of these muscles will not contract unless it receives a command from the will. That is a fact. But the heart contracts without our will! There must be another will that makes the heart beat and that will is the will of God!

The only book that teaches this is the Bible. "In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28. "In Him all things hold together." Colossians 1:17. (are we allowed to quote the Bible?)

The Bible is not the only holy book that teaches about a creator god. Creator gods go back to the very beginning of human thought.

Just because I don't know exactly how everything works doesn't mean that it's the god of the Bible doing it.

This idea that our hearts are continually self centered and evil or that we can't trust our intuition has proven to be false in my life. I have found that I become what I believe I am.

If I believe that I have no good in me then life is heavy and continually filled with shame. If I believe that I have great potential for good and for joy, life emerges through that window instead.

It's not about arrogance or pride. It is about being hopeful and positive. I like how Scott Peck puts it. Life is difficult and when you stop expecting it to be easy it's not so difficult. It's about taking responsibility and engaging with life head on. That takes courage.

Christianity seems to always want to appeal to fear and rain on people's parade. The message is humanity is bad to the bone and without merit. The only way humanity has any value is because Jesus died for them.

I find people to be beautiful and complex. They are filled with contradictions, but deep down most people I meet want to do good. People's deepest desire is to love and be loved. I find that to be quite amazing and wonderful.

I find no evidence that the god of the Bible is the source of that.

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[The Bible is not the only holy book that teaches about a creator god. Creator gods go back to the very beginning of human thought.

Just because I don't know exactly how everything works doesn't mean that it's the god of the Bible doing it.

True, but given that you don't know exactly how everything works, shouldn't you allow for that possibility?
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They did exactly what Satan would have them do and caused the world to look upon God as a tyran. Like the Jews, were we not, Adventists, called to be the ground and pillar of the truth and are we not in danger of repeating their history to the very letter?

sky

Probably so, and especially if a person's eyes are on the debaters and making effort to prove how right we are instead of working in the trenches with the purpose of spreading the gospel.

"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."John 13:35 KJV

Love in action produces both believers and martyrs and God takes care of the end results for both.

God Blesses! peace

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Originally Posted By: cardw
[The Bible is not the only holy book that teaches about a creator god. Creator gods go back to the very beginning of human thought.

Just because I don't know exactly how everything works doesn't mean that it's the god of the Bible doing it.

True, but given that you don't know exactly how everything works, shouldn't you allow for that possibility?

In principle I do allow for all possibilities. There happen to be ones that are more likely than others.

I spent 20 some odd years defending Christianity and trying to make it work based on what I read in the Bible and learned growing up in the church. I simply can't defend it based on either experience or evidence. I found the Christian experience to be harmful and, to me, life threatening.

I tended to be depressed most of the time while I tried to live the Christian life. The life I have now is so much lighter and is based on actual experience. I don't have to do all the mental gymnastics required to make Christianity the one true way. It is much simpler to only seek what is true.

I believe that I have identified the core issues that Christianity tends to teach that hare harmful to the joyful experience of life. Most of the time the core message is that we humans will never be good enough and we have to get ready for the destruction of the earth. These are based on shame and fear. The Orwellian aspect is that Christians identify this as evidence of their god's love.

You also have the illogical story of how there is a god who makes up a set of rules that if broken by one person condemn the whole human race and the only solution this god comes up with is the tortuous bloody sacrifice of his own son which allows him to forgive the human race and still carry out the terrible punishment. And this all started because the first two humans ate apples.

I don't find that particularly likely, do you?

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I wish there was a loving god that would reveal himself and express a plan to help humanity along the way.

If you do not believe the evidence He gave some two thousand years ago, why do you think there is a human being today who could give more substantial evidence? From my vantage point the human race has not increased at all in wisdom, although his use of technology to destroy the human race proves another is making sweeping progress.

"In spite of this they still sinned,And did not believe in His wondrous works."Psalm 78:32 NKJV

"But if I do his work, believe in the evidence of the miraculous works I have done, even if you don’t believe me. Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father.” "John 10:37 NKJV

"The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. "John 10:10 NKJV

God blesses! peace

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