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Sojourner

Conceal carry in SDA meetings?

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Sojourner

Does the SDA permit people to conceal carry in church meetings? Are deacons or security personel ever requested or required to conceal carry for the security purposes of the general congregation?

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Arwen

Hi Sojourner

I have never heard of a member having a weapon in a church service.

I would think it very strange if they did.

(I’m not sure what happens in countries where there has been violence shown towards Christians – things may be different there.)

However when I have gone to the General Conference GC meeting (the 5 year conference for the worldwide SDA Church), I assume that the regular security staff that are employed by the conference center where it is held, do have weapons.

I have gone to several GC meetings and have seen the center security with holsters and weapons. It didn’t make me or the rest of my party feel safer, it was a hindrance more than a help.

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Ted Oplinger

Does the SDA permit people to conceal carry in church meetings? Are deacons or security personel ever requested or required to conceal carry for the security purposes of the general congregation?

Required?

No - no one is ever required to carry in the SDA Church.

Have there been elders/deacons who do have concealed weapons licences? Yes

Have some of these petitioned their local pastor for permission to carry during services? Yes.

While I have heard (and seen) volunteer efforts to carry, most states do require permission to be obtained first from the pastor.

If an SDA pastor says no - that's the end of it. Those who carry leave it in the vehicle.

If a pastor agrees - it will likely be a private agreement, as there are a few SDA's scattered around who go absolutely bonkers about the issue.

Hope this helps,

Blessings,

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nuff sed

If I decide to 'carry' my concealed weapon into the church I shall not be seeking 'permission' of the pastor nor the church board to do so. Nuff Sed

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Ted Oplinger

If I decide to 'carry' my concealed weapon into the church I shall not be seeking 'permission' of the pastor nor the church board to do so. Nuff Sed

I do also agree with that sentiment, 'Nuff Sed. I was only relaying what man's Law tells us we "must" do, so that others do get so frightened by those who take the defense of self and others quite seriously.

My church does not know when I carry or not - and have told the pastor and church board they will not know either, unless they decide to frisk me down when I walk through the doors.

At the frisking comment, one said they might just try that...to which I replied I would select who it was, that she may do the job. Debate settled, right there... :)

Blessings,

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Narcah

Interesting thread. There are no rules against carrying in church and people do. Who, when, where, why I am not at liberty to say, but it is fun checking out your friends guns between church and potluck. :)

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ClubV12

You folks recall the Sikh shooting back east, it wasn't that long ago. And other Church related killings. In fact I recall reading about such a killing in a Jewish Synagogue. Gentiles, killed by Romans. The Jewish folk determined, rather smugly, that those Gentiles must not have been true converts and they paid with their life for not following the law and the prophets.

Sikhs anyone? Baptists maybe? Mormons, just like those Gentiles? How about Seventh-day Adventists? Clearly WE are a special people, raised up for this time in earths history. I have no doubt we are in fact the chosen people with the last message for mankind. So, do we get a free ride from this type of behaviour because, you know, we really ARE special?

God is no respector of persons. I see that as meaning His laws (divine law and natural law) apply to all with equal force. Even evil enjoys the protection those laws offer when they are obeyed and suffers the consequences when they are not obeyed. If a man is bent on evil (has a gun, will kill), the laws apply to all who come in his path. The only way around those laws is for God to directly intervene in some divine way. Sometimes people call it "luck", all though it may be nothing more than Gods laws at work. Sometimes it is indeed direct divine intervention, which is available to all, even the Muslim, if the Father so wills it.

I have no idea what action I would take when faced with such a horrendous situation in a Church. But some people, around the world, are facing this very real possibility today. Adventists have been killed, as well as other Christians, Muslims of course. Muslims (or Baptist or Adventist), killed, because they were unconverted non-Christians? Natural law? God is no respector of persons? Whats going on here?

I'm thinking of one law in particular. The law that says when we place ourselves on Satans ground, we become his "lawful" prey. Gods protection is thus limited to a greater or lesser degree based on that law. Job being an example here of the limits of protection the law offers. Job of course, did NOT place himself on Satans ground, but he still suffered according to the law.

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Ted Oplinger

You folks recall the Sikh shooting back east, it wasn't that long ago. And other Church related killings. In fact I recall reading about such a killing in a Jewish Synagogue. Gentiles, killed by Romans. The Jewish folk determined, rather smugly, that those Gentiles must not have been true converts and they paid with their life for not following the law and the prophets.

Sikhs anyone? Baptists maybe? Mormons, just like those Gentiles? How about Seventh-day Adventists? Clearly WE are a special people, raised up for this time in earths history. I have no doubt we are in fact the chosen people with the last message for mankind. So, do we get a free ride from this type of behaviour because, you know, we really ARE special?

God is no respector of persons. I see that as meaning His laws (divine law and natural law) apply to all with equal force. Even evil enjoys the protection those laws offer when they are obeyed and suffers the consequences when they are not obeyed. If a man is bent on evil (has a gun, will kill), the laws apply to all who come in his path. The only way around those laws is for God to directly intervene in some divine way. Sometimes people call it "luck", all though it may be nothing more than Gods laws at work. Sometimes it is indeed direct divine intervention, which is available to all, even the Muslim, if the Father so wills it.

I have no idea what action I would take when faced with such a horrendous situation in a Church. But some people, around the world, are facing this very real possibility today. Adventists have been killed, as well as other Christians, Muslims of course. Muslims (or Baptist or Adventist), killed, because they were unconverted non-Christians? Natural law? God is no respector of persons? Whats going on here?

I'm thinking of one law in particular. The law that says when we place ourselves on Satans ground, we become his "lawful" prey. Gods protection is thus limited to a greater or lesser degree based on that law. Job being an example here of the limits of protection the law offers. Job of course, did NOT place himself on Satans ground, but he still suffered according to the law.

Interesting, Club. It was precisely those events that motivated myself and others to discuss the issue with our local pastor. There are now at least 4 I know of licensed to carry, with another 3-4 interested.

None of us know who is carrying when.....

Blessings,

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Sojourner

The "Living Church of God" keep the Sabbath and believe that they are the group God has chosen to spread His message across the world in the last days. They had an incident where someone armed with a firearm entered their church on Sabbath and shot eight people dead.

http://www.thejournal.org/issues/issue98/brookfield2.html

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ClubV12

I believe killings have happened in Seventh-day Adventist Churches in some parts of Africa as well. Killings by other Adventists on top of that! No one is immune, thats the "law".

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onebeecee

It says in the bible to lay down your life for Christ, not to fire back! WOW I am just blown away by the fear mongering you people have bought into this church. Again I'm just blown away.

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nuff sed

You , probably, wouldn't get "blown away" if someone was 'carrying' in your church. I have never 'carried' my concealed weapon in church. That doesn't mean that I 'never' will... Nuff Sed

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onebeecee

I actually wouldn't get "blown away" at any point, unless I was a gang member, which a very high percentage is tracked back to the USA. Carrying a hand gun here, requires permission from the police, you must state where you are going and what time you will be back. There are special cases where hunters are allowed in high populated grizzly bear areas (but a black bear will attack you much more quicker, then a grizzly). But I'm lucky I live in Canada, where fear mongering hasn't reached extremist levels, so only the comments here could blow me away.

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Geoarrge

"Fear mongering?" I'm disappointed. Where did Christ say you should lay down your life the moment someone comes to kill you for any reason? For that matter, where did Christ say you should go about your daily life unarmed?

It's not about fear, it's about threat assessment, and thinking about how to prevent situations governed by the fear reaction. People don't like violent crime, and they don't like effectively regressing to a caste system by limiting weapons to a special class of people. People with healthy functioning amygdalae are not paralyzed by thinking about threats.

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WisdomWarlord

Hmm. Interesting indeed. Let's not forget that Peter was most likely regularly armed around Jesus, and it's unlikely that Jesus objected to it. We know that Peter used his weapon at least once, in defense of another person, specifically Jesus. Had that been today, it would have been a 9mm bullet in Malchus' chest. And I'm sure Jesus would have reacted the same. "Dude, chill" to Peter, and "My friends bad. Let me get that" as he healed Malchus' wound. That was a Christian protecting a fellow human against imminent danger. The same as we who have the heart to carry today will do if called on to act. Back then, it was a sword. Today, it would most likely be a pistol. No different in a historical context and considering the personal defense weapons most commonly used.

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phkrause

And what did Jesus say to Peter, after that? And just to let you know, I have no problem with anyone hiding the weapons where ever they want on there person. I'm pretty sure Peter wasn't hiding his weapon, it was right out there on the outside of his clothes, so all can see it. Just my opinion.

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WisdomWarlord

Luke 22:51 says But Jesus said, “No more of this!” And he touched his ear and healed him. 52 (ESV), which I paraphrased to "Jesus said to Peter 'Dude, chill' then healed the man's ear saying 'that was my friends bad, let me fix that'"

My point is, concealed or not, having a weapon at the ready to come to the defense of another is simply not a bad thing. It's not fear, or any such thing. It's being prepared in a world that hates us, to live another day.

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WisdomWarlord

And what dihope someone with the heart to use it properly sus say to Peter, after that? And just to let you know, I have no problem with anyone hiding the weapons where ever they want on there person. I'm pretty sure Peter wasn't hiding his weapon, it was right out there on the outside of his clothes, so all can see it. Just my opinion.

Actually, I haven't researched how clothes and weapons were wore then. My initial assumption is that a sword for every day carry would be easily obscured or concealed by the robes worn. I don't know for sure, and without further research, a case can be made for both. But, that's not the point here. I believe the point is the appropriateness or a deadly weapon at church . My thought is that I do hope that someone with the heart to use it appropriately does have one. Sometimes, that someone is me.

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Miss Jessie

Have you read "The Desire of Ages?"

Do you know why the men fell back when they came to arrest Jesus? If anyone had the right to defend Himself, it was Him. He is God, but He allowed Himself to be taken captive. He suffered abuse and torture. He died for us, quietly...

And not only Him, but His apostles, too. Peter was a fighting man. If it was right to defend our own lives with violence or weapons, Peter probably would have been slashing away at his enemies...

Have you read the book of Martyrs? Did you know that many people converted because of how God's spirit moved on many of the martyrs (not all of them, sadly), to go to their deaths without using violence to defend themselves? Even executioners were executed because they would not kill those beautiful people.

Can we show God's love by using violence, weapons, etc, to defend our rights, our lives? What about that of others?

I believe it shows a lack of faith in God's ability and willingness to protect us. I believe it shows an unwillingness to let God lead us wherever He wants us to be, especially if it's to our death. By going to death the way Christ would, even one soul, possibly more, may be convicted of God's love, His sacrifice...

And what if we took a life? If you kill someone who is trying to kill you or others, you are sending them to eternal death as well...They'd die with that sin on their hearts...

Have any of you seen "The end of the Spear?" It may help you understand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-gg27Ltf98

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rudywoofs (Pam)

Quote:
I believe it shows a lack of faith in God's ability and willingness to protect us. I believe it shows an unwillingness to let God lead us wherever He wants us to be, especially if it's to our death.

I respectfully disagree with the above.

God expects us to do our part in life if He gives us the tools to do so, and I believe that includes protecting ourselves, our family, friends, and others from danger.

If that isn't true, then why bother, for example, to wear seatbelts when traveling? What about fire alarms? Tsunami warnings? Why go to a bomb shelter when there's a blitzkrieg?

Should we just blandly consider the Holocaust to be "God's Will" because the people were not able to defend themselves against death in concentration camps?

Perhaps I'm not sufficiently informed, but to my knowledge, God does not wantonly lead His people to death.

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Planey

God expects us to do our part in life if He gives us the tools to do so, and I believe that includes protecting ourselves, our family, friends, and others from danger.

If that isn't true, then why bother, for example, to wear seatbelts when traveling? What about fire alarms? Tsunami warnings? Why go to a bomb shelter when there's a blitzkrieg?

While I tend to agree with you, Pam, I was wondering: all of your examples don't affect anyone else's life chances.

Does it make a difference if the action you take to preserve your life directly affects another person's life? Perhaps even to the extent of ending someone else's life?

Not sure here.

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rudywoofs (Pam)

Graeme, my post was in response to the statement involving "unwillingness to let God lead us wherever He wants us to be [including death]" ... that's why my answer included examples not involving the death of someone else by my hand.

If I was in a sinking ship that only had enough lifeboats for a portion of passengers, I wouldn't push someone else out to save myself.

otoh, if an unwelcome intruder broke into my home and attempted to harm me or anyone in my family, I most certainly would do anything and everything I could to protect myself and anyone else in danger. Owning and using a gun for protection doesn't necessarily mean putting someone else's life at jeopardy, though it certainly could do that. Disabling an attacker would be my aim...so to speak.

I vividly remember one graveyard shift I was working in the ER. We got a call from another medical center, letting us know that a deranged person was on his way to our facility to shoot the ER staff. Our Chief of Emergency Med was on duty that night. He always carried a loaded pistol in an ankle holster.

Guess who we clustered around all that night....

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Miss Jessie

Christ and His disciples are to be our example. You refer to the holocaust, but what about the martyrs of old times? What's the difference?

The holocaust showed how far people could stoop when controlled by the devil. It also brought out the good in people (which I believe is from God).

What would it have profited the jews if they fought against the army with guns? Unless they won, they still would have been murdered. Would you want to die trying to kill someone to save your life? What would it profit the souls that you are trying to kill, because they're trying to kill you? We should be attempting to save lives, not to take them.

Wearing your seatbelt won't get someone else killed (at least as far as I'm aware). Wearing a seatbelt can protect the person wearing and also the others in the vehicle. Yes, these kinds of things are good.

Besides, who says God wants us to do everything we can to preserve our lives? Where does the Bible say that? The Bible says the opposite.

"He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." ~John 12:25~

And many lives were saved in the holocaust by people hiding the Jews, without violence. Sadly, many were found and sent to camps and/or murdered, but many also were saved.

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