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Tom Wetmore

Phoebe, a leader in the New Testament Church

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Gregory Matthews

Contrary to your statement that Paul used the word "servant," which as I stated is an English translation of a Greek word,  Paul used a Greek word.   The Greek word that Paul used, transliterated into English is Deacon/Deaconess.

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Gregory Matthews

Mark Leslie:  Yes, the New ENglish  Translation is an interesting Bible which I will comment on in a moment.  But, I note that you quote a translators note which ends with a statement that the view presented should be regarded at tentative and then you go well beyond that and say that the  verse in Romans can not be used as evidence to support women's ordination.  In a sense, you have rejected the view that you have presented of the translators that   what you have cited should be considered tentative.  In as sense, you present yourself as rejecting what you have cited and as being more knowledgeable than your authority figures.

O.K. moving on to the New English translation:

*  It is a translation of about 20 translators.  That is good.  There is much that is good about this translation.

*  It is a dynamic translation, rather than a formal translation.  I support dynamic translations as long as it is understood that they may not be as authorative as a formal translation when used for a doctrinal understanding.

*  The New English Bible is considered by some conservative scholars to have gone beyond what is appropriate for a dynamic translation, in some places.

*  The New English Bible was published in steps as it was translated.  Published versions versions, beginning with the 2nd edition contained the apocryphal books.  Those books are rejected as being inspired by many of your conservataives to include SDAs.

*  The note that you quoted was that, simply a note.  No conservative Christian would ever consider a translators note to be inspired.  That would include note on other translations,  the KJV, NKJV, NIV and I could go on and on.  Translator notes are of value, but they are not inspired.

 

 

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Gregory Matthews

Mark Leslie:  Since you have cited a translator note related to the Greek word, translitered into the English word Deacon/Deaconess, I think it would be well to go to a more authorative source for the meaning of that Greek word.  The authorative source I am using is the 4th edition of Arndt & Gingrich and I am reading   it in the English language as I am not able to read it in other languages such as German.  As I respond, let us remember that in most languages a specific word may have multiple meanings.  This is true of both English and of Greek which was the  major language of the New Testament.  As to the Greek word that we are discussing, commonly used meanings include:

*  Personal Servant:  Both in the Biblical writings and in contempory literature.  Matthew 22:13 is an example of such use.  

* Minister of the Gospel:  Colossians 1:23 and Galations 3:7 are  examples of it being used to refer to Paul.

* Minister of Sin:  See Galations 2:17.

*  Minister (helper) of God:  I Thessalonians 3:2 when used of Timothy.

*  In contempory literature often used as a church official in a non-Christian setting.

  *  In contempory literature often used as a governmental agent or helper.

The bottom line is this:  That Greek word has been translated into English as "servant."    But, it should be understood as typically having much more importance and authority than we might think of when we read the English word.  It often carried meanings that would be related to important governmental figures and church figures such as Timothy and Paul.

NOTE:  In my listing above, I have only given a reference or two.  I could have cited many more.

 

 

 

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APL
4 hours ago, Mark Leslie said:

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Galatians 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

Most of the passage has to do with surrendering our lusts instead to be the ruled of the Spirit. 

 

Headship means Men are overseer at home, and the Church, with Christ as head. Plenty of Bible examples to show it. 

 

I am so glad I am not confused over this issue.

Is not surrendering our sin the rule of the Spirit???  Hm...

Again - what does "overseer" mean to you?  What ever that man says, goes?  Is that the way of Christ? 

I'm glad you are glad; a verse comes to mind in Luke 18

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The Wanderer
On 9/3/2016 at 1:28 PM, Tom Wetmore said:

Paul in his letters to the churches makes mention of women who were laborers with him in the gospel. Writing to the Romans, he says: “I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea; that ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you; for she hath been a succorer of many, and of myself also. Greet Aquila and Priscilla, my helpers in Christ Jesus: who have for my sake laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the first-fruits of Achaia unto Christ. { NPUGleaner December 4, 1907, par. 8 }

To me, laboring over one word regarding Phoebe, is like paying attention to one grain of sand, in an entire bag of sand, and how much more could be built by using the whole bag. Here is the scripture, with a little more context:

Rom 16:1  I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: 
Rom 16:2  That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also. 
Rom 16:3  Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: 
Rom 16:4  Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. 
Rom 16:5  Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ. 
Rom 16:6  Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us. 
Rom 16:7  Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. 
Rom 16:8  Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord. 
Rom 16:9  Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved. 
Rom 16:10  Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' household. 
Rom 16:11  Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord. 
Rom 16:12  Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord. 
Rom 16:13  Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine. 
Rom 16:14  Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them. 
Rom 16:15  Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them. 
Rom 16:16  Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

Of Phoebe, there are three descriptors: 1/  a sister 2/ a servant (using KJV) 3/a succourer of many  Dwelling on just the one word "servant"  inordinately, places this entire scripture in an entirely different light than what the author, (Paul) orginally intended.

Certainly, Paul  here was not trying to "prove" any particular point, regarding ordination . In this passage, Paul mentions 32 other people, and none of this is really of particular subject matter such as the fork-tongued mantra about "women's ordination" so called, because  "ordination" does not belong to either men or women, it is not a gender parity issue, it is not an equal rights issue. This is fast turning into another argument thread, and all over one little word, which, even if 100% correctly explained, would throw the rest of this passage in Romans 16 completely out of its intended meaning and context, because of inordinate focus and inflated meaning being attached to the word rendered as servant in the KJV. Personally, I dont care what anyone thinks that word means. It does not define the entire passage at all.

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The Wanderer
5 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

The bottom line is this:  That Greek word has been translated into English as "servant."    But, it should be understood as typically having much more importance and authority than we might think of when we read the English word.  It often carried meanings that would be related to important governmental figures and church figures such as Timothy and Paul.

Perhaps this comment is over-looking the forest for the trees. There are three descriptors used regarding Phobe, none of them have been placed in importance over the others. And the other 32 people, or people groups mentioned in this passage of Romans 16 are all just as important in the church, so why not use all of them to say ordination? Of course, we know that cannot be done, so why pick on Phoebe and make her out to be something she is not?

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Tom Wetmore
On 9/6/2013 at 9:58 AM, Tom Wetmore said:

While mentioned in other threads, this article from Ministry Magazine deserves to be re-emphasized -

 

https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/2013/04/phoebe-was-she-an-early-church-leader

 

 

Once again, I urge each of you to not take my word for it.  Please just read the article published in Ministry Magazine, the publication our Church publishes for clergy.  This is not a trifling opinion by some two-bit hack when it comes to theology or NT scholarship.  This is from one of the Churches respected theologians, a careful and well-qualified Biblical scholar.

Understanding the original language more fully and as it would have been understood by its original readers and Paul himself as he wrote it is important to really understanding these two verses about Phoebe.  This is also not new light, new scholarship or novel ideas.  The same understanding of the key words in the original language articulated in this article were first published by the founders of the Adventist Church in the mid 19th Century in the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald in support of women in ministry.

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JoeMo

I know it's off topic; but it's really good to see you back, Tom.  I always enjoy your posts and appreciate both your open-mindedness and your logic.

:backtopic:

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The Wanderer
1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

I know it's off topic; but it's really good to see you back, Tom.  I always enjoy your posts and appreciate both your open-mindedness and your logic.

:backtopic:

the church and the forum needs more encouragers. Welcome back Tom . (I didnt know you were gone).

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Tom Wetmore
On 2/2/2018 at 5:14 PM, Tom Wetmore said:

... The same understanding of the key words in the original language articulated in this article were first published by the founders of the Adventist Church in the mid 19th Century in the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald in support of women in ministry.

This last sentence should give pause to those claiming to be historic Adventists, those that assume their brand of teaching represents what the founders of the Adventist Church believed and taught.  The reality of the Adventist Church in the 19th Century's that it was people coming out of traditional Christian churches, changing many things and seeking true Biblical teaching.  They were open to new light.  They were indeed progressive for the times their times. And clearly so with regard to the role of women in the Church who were allowed and accepted and recognized as being able to function in many ways that some today are trying to challenge. They were not fundamentalists, as that term is currently understood. The Church leadership was commandeered by fundamentalists going into the 20th Century and that fundamentalism calcified in the Church after EGW died and dominated until it began to be challenged starting in the late 60's and early 70's. That was when the role of women once again came to the forefront.  

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Gregory Matthews

An interesting choice of a word:   :)

. . . 

fundamentalism calcified in the Church after EGW died. . .

 

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The Wanderer
9 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

An interesting choice of a word:   :)

 

Yes, if one considers the medical pathology of same, it is a great use of the word. However, equating said "fundamentalism" with those who agree or disagree with the topic at hand, it is rendered impotent. :D:D

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Gregory Matthews

Yes, I am aware of the clinical meaning of the word.  About two hours ago I was looking at a series of X-rays and I pointed to one spot and said:  This might be some calcification, but then I am not a physician.

 

GM

 

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