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Jeannieb43

Who and Where is Satan Now?

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Jeannieb43

I've recently become acquainted with several new friends, retirees who come from various sophisticated backgrounds.   Most of these people have had professional careers and are now in their 80s but still possessed of fine intelligence.   There aren't any Alzheimer's patients in this new group.  [Nor are there any other Adventists besides myself.]

We often meet to discuss topics suggested by the members, including the latest findings in science, the law, etc.

Well, two nights ago at the dinner table one retired Ph.D. (female) asked, in all seriousness, where Satan is now.   Is he alive?   Did he ever really exist?  Where does he live?

She herself is an agnostic, but most of those at the table had been raised in one or another Christian tradition.   Everybody tried to explain to her where and who Satan really is.  Finally everybody turned to me, and I gave an elementary explanation of my belief:   Lucifer, the covering cherub, becoming jealous of Michael, and the war in heaven developing and Lucifer being cast out of heaven and bound on this earth, his name being changed to Satan.   I said I believe he still exists, and that the wicked angels who were cast out with him are also roaming this earth and they become the spooks which people have seen at one time or another.  But I was stumped when I tried to refer to Bible texts to support my position.  I know the text in Job where "the morning stars sang together" and then Satan came together with the heads of other worlds for a meeting with God.....    and from there I get lost!

 

Does anybody here have a good Bible study on Who and Where is Satan?  (without using Ellen White?)

 

Not that I'm embarrassed to quote EGW, it's just that these new friends wouldn't be convinced by anything other than the Holy Scripture.

 

I even hauled out my trusty set of Bible studies by Mary Walsh which I've relied on for 50 years.   But there's nothing about the origin of Satan there.   I guess everybody just assumed (then) that Satan's existence was a foregone conclusion.

 

Sorry if this seems convoluted.   But the reason I'm asking here for help is that this new Ph.D. friend of mine has become quite important in my life here.  She's been depending on me for assistance in things of the world, such as financial investing and legal precedents.  I'd like to show her something from Scripture which could give her a few answers to her questions about Satan.

 

Any help any of you can give me will be most appreciated.. 

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Jeannieb43

Thanks, DGrimm.   I'll follow up on that tip. 

 

I really appreciate it.

 

 

 

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LifeHiscost

JEANNIEB43

Revelation 12 is about the best place I can think of right now, specifying just where the devil and his angels are. The language used is sometimes symbolic that makes definitive proofs difficult to understand. I would suggest this promise be claimed and relied upon before reading the chapter in it's entirety.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come......John 16
 

For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?......Matthew 7

I would suggest the Holy Spirit is one of those gifts God is willing to give those who ask.

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.....John 7
 
Pastor Doug Bachelor and Steve Wohlberg are both excellent sources to research web pages for end time events.
 

Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 1 Peter 5

 
God is Love!   Jesus saves!  :D

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Aliensanctuary

Because the description of Satan being cast out of heaven lies in the middle of apocalyptic events, we should probably assume that this event occurs during that time also. Unfortunately, we've all been brainwashed into believing that "Heaven" in the scriptures means only the place where God dwells and is the destination of his followers when they die.

If we look at the Hebrew definition for "heaven" in Strong's Concordance we see: 

lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve

It should be obvious by reading Strong's definition that "heaven" in scriptures means high above, sky, or outer space. Because we've all been brainwashed into believing a false belief about "heaven" we misunderstand the Kingdom and prophecy.

When Satan is described as being cast out of heaven it means that he was knocked or shot down while orbiting our planet or in its vicinity. Since this hasn't occurred yet, according to Rev, then he and his team have not arrived here yet, but instead act upon humanity via telepathy. Maybe Satan is imprisoned somewhere in our solar system, maybe in another dimension, maybe something else, but humans will definitely know when he has arrived. 

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LifeHiscost
On 11/18/2015, 12:02:35, Aliensanctuary said:

Because the description of Satan being cast out of heaven lies in the middle of apocalyptic events, we should probably assume that this event occurs during that time also. Unfortunately, we've all been brainwashed into believing that "Heaven" in the scriptures means only the place where God dwells and is the destination of his followers when they die.

If we look at the Hebrew definition for "heaven" in Strong's Concordance we see: 

lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve

It should be obvious by reading Strong's definition that "heaven" in scriptures means high above, sky, or outer space. Because we've all been brainwashed into believing a false belief about "heaven" we misunderstand the Kingdom and prophecy.

When Satan is described as being cast out of heaven it means that he was knocked or shot down while orbiting our planet or in its vicinity. Since this hasn't occurred yet, according to Rev, then he and his team have not arrived here yet, but instead act upon humanity via telepathy. Maybe Satan is imprisoned somewhere in our solar system, maybe in another dimension, maybe something else, but humans will definitely know when he has arrived. 

What is your concept of this information? Seems pretty clear that the difficulty created by the devil is where the place is occupied by the evil one.

 

Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.....1 Peter 5 emphasized mine  LHC

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

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Martn

Has anyone ever studied the Jewish position on Satan? It's an eye opener.

Jews do not (!) believe in any sort of literal devil. This is true in all sectors of Judaism--Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, etc. No exceptions. And we know from the Talmud and other ancient Jewish sources that this was always the case, even in the days of Jesus, in spite of what the Christian Bible seems to say --viewed from a Christian perspective, that is. 

Jews may believe there are evil spirits of course --such as wicked human spirits and the like, but no (actual) fallen angels.

Not even Satan. Satan remains in Jewish scripture, to this day, one of God's LOYAL angels --a prosecuting attorney of sorts, working on God's behalf.

And Lucifer? Lucifer was just a human being, not an (actual, literal) angel. In the Hebrew text itself he is called Adam, repeatedly.

And as for the serpent who "tempted" Eve, Jews actually regard the serpent as a symbol of the Messiah! No kidding.

So, where did Christianity get its ideas concerning Satan? From PAGAN sources, believe it or not. Just ask the rabbis.

Christianity arose in Judea at a time when most Jews, and most Jewish leaders, lived nowhere near Judea, but far away in distant Mesopotamia instead. In fact the Jews of Judea were regarded as fake Jews and renegades for the most part. Only 100 years before Jesus was born, nearly the entire population of Judea were full-blown pagans, not even Jewish by birth. Except for a small minority of wealthy Jewish rulers, who forced the pagan population of Judea to convert to their perverted version of Judaism. Nearly everyone converted, though in private of course most retained pagan ideas and customs --these were the "Jews" who either rejected Jesus or later followed Jesus and became Christians.

(About 500 years before Jesus was born, Jews were entirely removed from Judea. When eventually they were allowed to return, only the wealthiest Jews could afford to stay. And so only a very small number ever did return, and of that small number the great majority eventually gave up and went back to Mesopotamia --where nearly all Jews remained, up until around 1000 years ago when finally Muslims invaders drove many of them into Europe. These Jews never rejected Jesus. They never even heard about Jesus. Christian missionaries never even went to them, because, as Jesus himself said, "I am sent only to the lost people, in Israel.")

 

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Martn

Another thing about Lucifer.

The text actually says he will be reborn someday --as a protector of the Jewish people! Isaiah 14:12, 29-32.

Could this be why Jesus, not Satan, is called the Morning Star (Lucifer!) in Revelation 22:16?

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JoeMo

Rev. 12:9 and 20:2 equate the devil with satan; so IMHO the satan referred to is not a loyal angel or human being.  In saying this, I am assuming my present understanding that lucifer and satan are the same being are correct.

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Martn
22 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Rev. 12:9 and 20:2 equate the devil with satan; so IMHO the satan referred to is not a loyal angel or human being.  In saying this, I am assuming my present understanding that lucifer and satan are the same being are correct.

That is the Christian understanding. I understand it differently.

Revelation is a book of deep symbolism, and I do not take any of this, in this particular instance, literally.

By the way, Lucifer is not named anywhere in this text.

Lucifer (Morning Star) is named elsewhere in Revelation, however, in reference to someone quite benign.

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JoeMo
1 hour ago, MCBGM said:

That is the Christian understanding. I understand it differently.

Revelation is a book of deep symbolism, and I do not take any of this, in this particular instance, literally.

By the way, Lucifer is not named anywhere in this text.

Lucifer (Morning Star) is named elsewhere in Revelation, however, in reference to someone quite benign.

I agree that Lucifer is not named in the texts I referenced.  This name Lucifer is not mentioned period in the NIV.

Just be looking at the context, I cannot believe that the "morning star" (lucifer) referenced in Isaiah 14:12 is the same as the "Morning Star" (Christ) referenced in Rev. 22:16.  I also notice that "morning stars" is mentioned in the plural in Job chapters 3 and 38.  Could morning star just be a synonym for angel?

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Martn
On 2/29/2016 at 2:25 PM, JoeMo said:

This name Lucifer is not mentioned period in the NIV.

Could morning star just be a synonym for angel?

"Morning Star" (Venus) is what the name "Lucifer" (Bright) refers to. The planet (called a star in ancient times) which traditionally is his symbol, which planet in its transits across the sky actually traces the shape of an upright, not inverted, pentagram (symbol of Lucifer) called Shield of Solomon (Magen Shlomo) in Judaism --an emblem of God's People, held together with Magen David, the Shield or Star of David..

Jesus calls, himself, by BOTH names --the Bright and Morning Star-- in Revelation 22:16.

Just as he is called, again by both names, in Isaiah 14:12.

He is not called "a" morning star, but "THE" Morning Star.

Unlike angels, who too were children of the dawn, this is his own personal name. There is only one person in scripture whose name is Morning Star, he being the very first one God created, "The Beginning of the Creation of God" as Revelation says.

"Lucifer" was simply an old Latin translation of the name used multiple times for Venus.

Variations of this name, in Greek, also occur multiple times in Christian scripture --in every instance, in reference to Jesus.

The name Logos, by the way, has far greater meaning than merely "Word" (as it is translated in most cases), being the "Light which lighteth" every man.

The "Daylight" which shined in darkness.

Compare: John 1:1-5 and Genesis 1:1-5.

The "Daylight" (used as a personal name) which God created in Genesis, before anything else was made, was not just a thing therefore, but a Person. Which is why that "Light" existed in Genesis even before the the sun and moon were made.

This was the light or spirit which filled Adam and made him breathe. He became Adam, and then Adam rebelled.

 

 

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