Jump to content
Kingdom of Adventistan
Gregory Matthews

Passover & Christianity

Recommended Posts

Ron Amnsn

Good article.  Jesus celebrated Passover each year, and the apostle Paul told the believers in Corinth to celebrate the Passover feast as well (1Cor 5:8 ), not that we need the apostle Paul's permission to do something that YHWH commanded his people to celebrate each year throughout their generations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RichardRuhling

My favorite author says, " As He ate the Passover with His disciples, He instituted in its place the service that was to be the memorial of His great sacrifice." DA 652

To do Passover as the Jews do, it would require the death of a lamb, but the Lamb was slain once for all, no need for further, though we should eat the Lamb spiritually by watching and praying, considering what He bore for us that night. http://thebridegroomcomes.com/ (the wedding parables all have Passover imagery)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ron Amnsn
17 minutes ago, RichardRuhling said:

My favorite author says, " As He ate the Passover with His disciples, He instituted in its place the service that was to be the memorial of His great sacrifice." DA 652

Richard, may I ask which passages of Scripture you used to test that statement from your favorite author?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RichardRuhling

I don't think you can show me any text showing the use of lamb after the resurrection. Acts 20:6 is the Feast of Unleavened Bread and 1Cor 5:8 says to keep the Feast, again with a focus on getting old leaven out. The use of bread and grape juice is clear. I'm not saying it's a sin to use lamb, and I'm sure that many believers do so in good conscience, and I think that appointed time  (mo'ed) is important, but the sacrifice of a lamb in order to eat it should not be necessary since Christ fulfilled it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Samie
9 hours ago, RichardRuhling said:

I'm not saying it's a sin to use lamb, and I'm sure that many believers do so in good conscience, and I think that appointed time  (mo'ed) is important, but the sacrifice of a lamb in order to eat it should not be necessary since Christ fulfilled it.

May I just simply point out that the appointed time (mo'ed) is on the night the moon is full.

NKJ Numbers 9:2-3   2 "Let the children of Israel keep the Passover at its appointed time.  3 "On the fourteenth day of this month, at twilight, you shall keep it at its appointed time. According to all its rites and ceremonies you shall keep it."

NKJ Psalm 81:3-5   3 Blow the trumpet at the time of the New Moon, At the full moon, on our solemn feast day.  4 For this is a statute for Israel, A law of the God of Jacob.  5 This He established in Joseph as a testimony, When He went throughout the land of Egypt, Where I heard a language I did not understand.

He Who came to fulfill the law, including the law on when Passover is to be celebrated, celebrated Passover with His disciples on the night the moon was full.  If anybody is interested, it can shown from Scriptures in corroboration with astronomical data, that Jesus celebrated that last Passover with His disciples on March 27, 31 AD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RichardRuhling

Thank you, Samie, for sharing the Scripture. I have seen a problem with astronomical data that I could explain, but for now, the CLEAR biblical method is to watch for the thin crescent in the western sky about 20-40 minutes after sunset on an evening after the moon was NOT visible the night before. If you don't see it, watch the next night, because there can be 2-3 evenings when you might not see it, just like there are 2-3 nights when the moon looks full. The word "chodesh" is in Exod 12:2 THREE times--watch for the crescent to indicate that evening and the next day as the New Moon Day. I have seen several events, including the popes' visits to the UN on the Day of Atonement in 1995 and 2015 based on this timing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ron Amnsn
18 hours ago, RichardRuhling said:

I don't think you can show me any text showing the use of lamb after the resurrection. Acts 20:6 is the Feast of Unleavened Bread and 1Cor 5:8 says to keep the Feast, again with a focus on getting old leaven out. The use of bread and grape juice is clear. I'm not saying it's a sin to use lamb, and I'm sure that many believers do so in good conscience, and I think that appointed time  (mo'ed) is important, but the sacrifice of a lamb in order to eat it should not be necessary since Christ fulfilled it.

Let's go back a bit.  I asked for the Scripture passages you used to test the statement that you had quoted from your favourite author.  SDA Fundamental Belief #18 states, in part "They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested."  Since your favourite author's statement says something that the Bible doesn't say, it must be tested by the Bible standard.  Which Scripture passages did you use to test the statement that you posted?  Where do we find anything similar stated in Scripture?  There are a number of passages in Scripture that would show that Jesus would not have replaced Passover with something else.

You have asserted that Acts 20:6 and 1Cor 5:8 don't explicitly require the sacrifice of a Passover lamb.  I agree, since the folks mentioned in those passages weren't in Jerusalem for Passover they probably wouldn't have eaten a Passover sacrifice, and neither would the other Jews in those cities.  But what about the followers of Jesus who were at Jerusalem where the feast of Passover was supposed to be celebrated?  What does Scripture tell us about them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RichardRuhling

Ron, I think God's law and word gives us room to weigh our motives and do the best we know, sometimes without an explicit passage. Just as you cannot give me a passage showing the use of the lamb for Passover after the cross, I cannot give you a passage that says the unleavened bread and wine (emblems of His sacrifice) were instituted in place of the lamb, but we have to go by the weight of evidence. I see numerous texts that mention unleavened bread and believe it is for an antitypical application impending at 2nd Passover this year because Y'shua was the Master who took the long journey in Matt 25:13,14 and is expected to return in harmony with Num 9:10,11, a provision that also fits "as the days of Noah." Please see http://bit.ly/2p4TqMO 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Samie
10 hours ago, RichardRuhling said:

Thank you, Samie, for sharing the Scripture.

You're welcome, Richard.

10 hours ago, RichardRuhling said:

I have seen a problem with astronomical data that I could explain, but for now, the CLEAR biblical method is to watch for the thin crescent in the western sky about 20-40 minutes after sunset on an evening after the moon was NOT visible the night before. If you don't see it, watch the next night, because there can be 2-3 evenings when you might not see it, just like there are 2-3 nights when the moon looks full.

Unlike full moon occurrences, there is no scientific record that exists as to occurrences of sightings of the young crescent in the western horizon of Jerusalem.  On the other hand, full moon occurrences can be ACCURATELY computed FORWARD or BACKWARD in time. 

This explains why Jesus Who can NEVER lose track of when full moon was to occur that Paschal week, celebrated Passover a day ahead of the Jewish national celebration.  Chances are, the official Jerusalem crescent observer may have, for whatever reason, failed to see the young crescent on the day it was supposed to be seen but instead saw it the following day.  That delayed the start of the month and moved Abib or Nisan 14 a day forward, and in the process their national celebration of Passover also moved with the delayed crescent sighting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RichardRuhling

Dear Samie,  I have been observing the moon for more than 20 years, and I know there are two or three nights when the moon looks full and I don't think God wanted us to be in doubt or have to resort to computations or calculations. The word "chodesh" is in Exod 12:2 THREE times--watch for the crescent to indicate that evening and the next day as the New Moon Day. To say that Christ celebrated it a night early is human speculation or reasoning--He could not die as the Passover lamb and then celebrate it when He was dead. That last night is a microcosm of end-time events for us and we should watch and pray on the eve of Passover as the Bible suggests, but I think with the emblems of His sacrifice, rather than by sacrificing a lamb that we eat. We can eat the Lamb spiritually as we consider what He bore for us. Since we are to "watch" (be awake) and pray, if you celebrate it, based on a dark moon instead of the visible crescent (chodesh in Exodus 12:2), you will be too tired to do the same the next night when He knocks (earthquake) as explained here, http://bit.ly/2p4TqMO and I've seen several events like the pope's visit to the UN on the Day of Atonement that were timed to the visible crescent. It's simple and doesn't require calculations, computations or questions. You know when you see it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ron Amnsn
4 hours ago, RichardRuhling said:

Ron, I think God's law and word gives us room to weigh our motives and do the best we know, sometimes without an explicit passage.

Strange.  Where does Scripture teach us that there are motives that carry sufficient weight and authority to allow us to set aside the Word of God?

4 hours ago, RichardRuhling said:

Just as you cannot give me a passage showing the use of the lamb for Passover after the cross, I cannot give you a passage that says the unleavened bread and wine (emblems of His sacrifice) were instituted in place of the lamb, but we have to go by the weight of evidence.

Why would I need a passage showing the use of lamb for Passover after the cross?  Where does Scripture itself require "after-the-cross" evidence to validate the Word of God that was given before the cross?  Nowhere.  That notion regarding "after-the-cross" evidence is apparently just a man-made tradition cooked up by those who want to set aside the Word of God, just as the serpent in Eden wanted Eve to set aside the previously-given instructions of God.  Perhaps God will arrange for the 144,000 to face, and successfully pass, a similar test to the test that Eve originally failed regarding previously-given instructions from God.

When God told Moses that the Israelites were to celebrate Passover "throughout your generations" and "forever," the Passover event explicitly includes the Passover sacrifice (Exodus 12:14, 24-27).  Your favourite author teaches that it was the pre-incarnate Jesus himself who gave God's Law of Moses to Moses.  So those instructions about Passover and the lamb sacrifice would be Jesus' own words, about which He proclaimed, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away." (Matt 24:35)

Jesus also taught that not a stroke would pass from the law until heaven and earth pass away and everything is fulfilled (Matt 5:17-19) Replacing the Passover sacrifice with the "Lord's Supper" would require the removal of numerous strokes from the Law.  Jesus also taught that those who annul one of the least commands of the law will be called "least in the kingdom of heaven". (v. 19)  You seem to be suggesting that Jesus would be "least in the kingdom of heaven" because he supposedly has annulled the commands regarding the Passover sacrifice.  We are told that Jesus will be highly exalted in the kingdom of heaven, so according to his own words he couldn't possibly have annulled any of the commands He gave in the Law of Moses. 

Then Paul testified before Felix that he "believed everything that agreed with the Law and was written in the Prophets"  (Acts 24:14)  If Paul had been teaching that the commands regarding the Passover sacrifice were no longer valid, then Paul blatantly lied to Felix about believing everything that agreed with the Law.  What else did Paul lie about?  Why would we pay any attention to the writings of someone who lied in the manner that your view of Scripture makes Paul lie to Felix? 

If Paul had actually been teaching that the commands regarding the Passover sacrifice had been replaced by the "Lord's Supper", where would the noble Bereans have been able to verify that non-Scriptural teaching in the Old Testament scrolls that they searched daily to see whether Paul's teachings were true? (Acts 17:10ff)  It is impossible to confirm such a teaching in the Old Testament, so we know that Paul's gospel could not have included the notion that the "Lord's Supper" replaced the Passover sacrifice. 

If Paul had actually taught people that God's commands regarding the Passover sacrifice were annulled, then according to Jesus Paul should be considered "least in the kingdom of heaven".  Does someone who is considered "least" have any authority to teach anyone anything, especially if they were teaching contrary to the existing Word of God?  Those are the kind of people that God had warned the Israelites to disregard.

There is more evidence, but this is long enough for now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RichardRuhling

Ron, When Christ died and the veil of the temple was rent, it ended the system of types and shadows pointing to Messiah. Animal sacrifices were no longer needed since the Lamb was slain that they pointed to. But it requires the sacrifice of a lamb for you to eat Passover and keep it as they did in the Old Testament. It is unfolded in the New and you don't have any New Testament evidence to support the killing of lambs, and "by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Instead of killing a lamb at Passover, why not eat the Lamb spiritually by considering what He bore for us that night as we watch and pray at 2nd Passover, the one He clued us would be when He would return as the Bridegroom in Matt 25:6,13,14 "like a man traveling to a far country"--it's torah for you--Numbers 9:10,11, and "as the days of Noah" which also came with Passover timing, but in the 2nd spring month, Gen 7:4,11. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Samie
12 hours ago, RichardRuhling said:

Dear Samie,  I have been observing the moon for more than 20 years, and I know there are two or three nights when the moon looks full and I don't think God wanted us to be in doubt or have to resort to computations or calculations. 

Richard dear, via your 20-year observations, can you tell me what date and time will the full moon be on May 2036, without consulting any other full moon listings?  If you can't, then, what's wrong with consulting computations and calculations that arrive at the exact full moon occurrences forward or backward in time?

You brought up issue of the mo'ed for Passover, and God specified it to be on a full moon night, not just simply on any night the moon looks full.  Have you ever wondered why Passover meal is always after sunset of the 14th day of Abib, and whether this has anything to do with full moon occurrence?

12 hours ago, RichardRuhling said:

To say that Christ celebrated it a night early is human speculation or reasoning

Not at all, brother.  You seemed to have overlooked the Bible record for that.

12 hours ago, RichardRuhling said:

He could not die as the Passover lamb and then celebrate it when He was dead.

Now, that's the human speculation or reasoning.  Did Christ, to you, celebrate Passover on a wrong night?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RichardRuhling

Samie, We could quibble all day about whether Christ ate the Passover early in order to die as the lamb on Passover the next day. The point is, the word chodesh (crescent moon) is seen THREE times in Exodus 12:2 where God gave the calendar. You are welcome to watch for full moons all  you wish, but based on the crescent, found it significant that the pope went to the UN on the Day of Atonement, the only day in the year to proclaim Jubilee (Lev 25:9,10) on the 50th Jubilee--the Jubilee of Jubilees in 1995 (counting from 456 BC when Israelites returned to their land (jubilee event) at the beginning of the 70 weeks of years cited in Daniel 9:24,25. With papal visits intersecting the jubilee timeline, I see that end-times will begin this spring and my information is working well for me. I would say as Paul, "Follow me as I follow Christ" (1Cor 11:1) and watch & pray on the evening of May 11/12 with further reasons seen here-- http://bit.ly/2p4TqMO  If you have an honest question re it, happy to reply but not interested in debating the issue that should be clear from above reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Samie
27 minutes ago, RichardRuhling said:

Samie, We could quibble all day about whether Christ ate the Passover early in order to die as the lamb on Passover the next day.

Not for us to quibble, Richard. The Bible has the final word. Just read it. It's there. He ate Passover ahead by a day of the Jewish celebration of Passover.

 

27 minutes ago, RichardRuhling said:

The point is, the word chodesh (crescent moon) is seen THREE times in Exodus 12:2 where God gave the calendar.

Sorry, but you seem to have misread that "chodesh" in Exo 12:2 is "crescent moon".  It's "month", brother. NOT "crescent moon".

KJV Exodus 12:2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.

If your reading of the verse is correct, then it should have read: "This crescent moon shall be unto you the beginning of crescent moons: it shall be the first crescent moon of the year to you."  Doesn't quite make sense, does it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RichardRuhling

Samie, I hope you realize that the Bible wasn't written in English, and translators sometimes fail to convey the original meaning. The word in Hebrew is chodesh as most concordances will show you. And if you go to https://images.google.com/  and type in chodesh, you will see the meaning--crescent moon--the letters are even similar. Did you think that Moses was staring at a blank sky and no visible moon?  In Bible times they had watchmen who blew the trumpet when they saw the new moon, as Psalm 81:3 says...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Samie
33 minutes ago, RichardRuhling said:

Samie, I hope you realize that the Bible wasn't written in English, and translators sometimes fail to convey the original meaning. The word in Hebrew is chodesh as most concordances will show you. And if you go to https://images.google.com/  and type in chodesh, you will see the meaning--crescent moon--the letters are even similar.

Well, Richard, the Hebrew vd,xo  ("chodesh") means either "month" or "new moon" (your "crescent moon").  But in Exo 12:2 it is quite clear from context that it must take on the meaning of "month" instead of "new moon".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RichardRuhling

Samie, I think you should understand that the new moon (crescent) "is the beginning of the months" as it says. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Samie
10 hours ago, RichardRuhling said:

Samie, I think you should understand that the new moon (crescent) "is the beginning of the months" as it says. 

I think I understand your insistence that the Hebrew vd,xo  ("chodesh") in Exo 12:2 is better translated "crescent moon" instead of "month", Richard. 

You're not aware that the moon was no longer in crescent phase when the Lord spoke to Moses what are recorded in Exo 12, are you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RichardRuhling

Dear Samie,

Please consider six reasons against your assertion.

1. If the moon "was no longer in crescent phase when the Lord spoke to Moses" (Exod 12:2), then the moon would not have been full two weeks later at Passover which it was, Passover has a full moon as celebrated by Jews and my favorite author says the moon was full when Christ went to the garden, DA 685, 2nd sentence.

2. The word chodesh is understood by Jewish people as a crescent. Did you visit Google images to see?

3. Chodesh has similar letters to crescent so it is easy to believe. 

4. They had watchmen who were to "blow the trumpet in the new moon." Ps 81:3. Do you think they blew the trumpet when they didn't see anything? What's the point of watching?

5. In chemistry, we did experiments where we measured how much chemical to neutralize another. The glass jar could be all pink, but ONE drop turned clear! It's the same way with a New Moon--you don't see the moon for two or three nights, but suddenly you know when you see the crescent! 

6. All of the above fit the timing of papal visits on the Day of Atonement in 1995 and 2015, and they are the basis of end-times beginning this year after the sabbatical year of 2016 because the end-times are a week of years in which Christ will cease His mediation, also on a sabbatical year, Rev 15:7,8. 

7. "beware of rejecting that which is truth. The great danger with our people has been that of depending upon men and making flesh their arm. Those who have not been in the habit of searching the Bible for themselves, or weighing evidence, have confidence in the leading men and accept the decisions they make; and thus many will reject the very messages God sends to His people, if these leading brethren do not accept them." TM 106.  To me, the weight of evidence (1-6) is clear and it suggests you are trusting some leader and are in danger of rejecting a message that I have.

8. Christ said before He comes, Elijah must first come and restore all things," Matt 17:11. Do you know what the "all things" that need to be restored are?

9. Do you know HOW they were be restored?  If you don't know these answers, how will you recognize Elijah when he comes?

10. Do you think you know know him because of a news announcement that he showed up in Washington DC to tell the world, "No rain!" and bring fire from heaven 3 years later?

11. The lamb-like beast will also bring fire from heaven in Rev 13:13. If you don't know the answers to #8 & 9, you should be asking...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Samie
1 hour ago, RichardRuhling said:

Dear Samie,

Please consider six reasons against your assertion.

1. If the moon "was no longer in crescent phase when the Lord spoke to Moses" (Exod 12:2), then the moon would not have been full two weeks later at Passover which it was, Passover has a full moon as celebrated by Jews and my favorite author says the moon was full when Christ went to the garden, DA 685, 2nd sentence.

I am not blaming you, Richard dear, IF you are not aware that the moon was no longer in crescent phase at the time the LORD spoke Exo 12:2. 

You may NOT have considered pertinent Scriptural accounts that transpired before and after Exo 12:2, which you believe was spoken when the moon was in crescent phase.  But Exo 12 speaks for itself that it was spoken right before the exodus of Israel from Egypt. Here's verse 12:

Exodus 12:12   For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD

You may read vv1-12 or even the whole chapter of Exo 12 and confirm for yourself that the moon was NOT in crescent phase when the Lord spoke Exo 12:2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RichardRuhling

Samie,

To the contrary, Exodus 12:2 was at the crescent and in the next verse (3) the instruction is to set a lamb apart for the sacrifice on the 10th day. Then on the 14th they were to sacrifice the lamb and put its blood on their doorpost. Some passages of Scripture are separated by thousands of years as Isaiah 61:2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Samie
5 hours ago, RichardRuhling said:

Samie,

To the contrary, Exodus 12:2 was at the crescent and in the next verse (3) the instruction is to set a lamb apart for the sacrifice on the 10th day. Then on the 14th they were to sacrifice the lamb and put its blood on their doorpost. Some passages of Scripture are separated by thousands of years as Isaiah 61:2

Ohh. So you're saying the LORD spoke Exo 12:2 at the crescent, and the LORD spoke Exo 12:3 on the tenth of the month?

You could be well on your way, I guess, to an excellent eisegesis, Richard.

You were insisting tooth and nail that "chodesh" means "crescent moon", so why would "chodesh" in v3 mean "month"?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dave Watchman
On 4/24/2017 at 2:18 PM, RichardRuhling said:

You are welcome to watch for full moons all  you wish, but based on the crescent, found it significant that the pope went to the UN on the Day of Atonement, the only day in the year to proclaim Jubilee (Lev 25:9,10) on the 50th Jubilee--the Jubilee of Jubilees in 1995 (counting from 456 BC when Israelites returned to their land (jubilee event) at the beginning of the 70 weeks of years cited in Daniel 9:24,25. With papal visits intersecting the jubilee timeline,

I see that end-times will begin this spring and my information is working well for me.

It sure is a tough call. And I also think that my information, if I should even call it that, is working well for me. But my zone of interest is different than yours. We're on the same year though. Because I think that you're smarter than me Richard, I tried to figure out your logic on the second Passover. Seems OK to use the tetrads as a signal. But why would we have to wait until AFTER the sabbatical year of 2016? What if 2016 is not even the sabbatical year? What if the end-times are NOT a ‘week’ of years with the last of 7 years also being a sabbatical year? Too much seems to be hinging on these long view specifications.

But I agree with the "quake" probably turning out to being the catalyst for the end times.

On 4/24/2017 at 2:18 PM, RichardRuhling said:

I would say as Paul, "Follow me as I follow Christ" (1Cor 11:1) and watch & pray on the evening of May 11/12 with further reasons seen here-- http://bit.ly/2p4TqMO 

Never a bad idea to watch and pray.

On 4/24/2017 at 2:18 PM, RichardRuhling said:

If you have an honest question re it, happy to reply but not interested in debating the issue that should be clear from above reasons.

How are you fitting the "days of Noah" in with the 2nd Passover?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×