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The nature of the Holy Spirit

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8thdaypriest

 

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2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Debates have run on for centuries over this topic, and I could never see the sense in any of it
because Scriptures are quite clear on this subject:

If the Scriptures were "quite clear on this subject" then logically, debates would NOT "have run on for centuries over this topic".  

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CoAspen
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If the Scriptures were "quite clear on this subject" then logically, debates would NOT "have run on for centuries over this topic". 

The above statement is not logical.

Debates don't come about because something is 'unclear' or 'clear'. The Isrealites wandered around in the wilderness for 40 years not because Gods message was 'unclear'. Humans are the issue, not God!! 

 

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debbym

we are not too busy to breathe.  we breathe while we do everything we do.  prayer is breathing spiritual life, exhaling and inhaling, speaking to God and hearing God, even on a non verbal level.  

Just as we hear God's love and power in the roar of the surf, in the songs of the birds,  rush of wind in the trees, God hears us as we do our chores, and express our love to others, and think on the turbulent times we live in.  Most of what we experience and understand is nonverbal.   Most of what we know is non verbal.   Words are an effort to express the inspiration of our hearts.  God hears the unspoken cry of our hearts as clear as if we enunciated perfectly.  He wants us to hear the call of his heart to us.  He is drawing everyone to Him, God is speaking to everyone at every moment.  What we do with that drawing is what we do with our lives.  God is offering us life, eternal life.  We either respond and breathe and live  or not.

The Spirit hears what the Father say's to the Son, what the Son says to the Father.  We are so privileges to have the prayer of Jesus in John 17.  I would love to read everything the Father said to Jesus in response to His prayer.

Jesus said, I have made you known and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them....  The Spirit heard this and makes God's love known to us continually.

Everything God does is love made known, for God is love.

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8thdaypriest
9 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

He had ascended on high, leading captivity captive, and He now claimed the gift of the Spirit, that He might pour it out upon His disciples (SW Nov. 28, 1905).  {6BC 1055.2}

Jesus claimed the gift.  The Spirit WAS "the gift". 

If I claimed "the gift" of speaking in tongues, and then I began to speak in another language, you would not say that another person was speaking the new language.  Just so, when Jesus was gifted with the power to be omnipresent once again, His presence with and in His disciples, was not another divine person.  

In Jesus' last prayer to His Father, He prayed, "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, AS You Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.  . . . I in them, and You in Me." 

HOW was the Father "in" Christ?  God the Father was "with" Christ and "in" Christ, because God the Father IS SPIRIT.  He is omnipresent.  He is not confined to the heavenly realm. 

And before He "emptied Himself" of divine powers, God's son was also omnipresent.  

After Jesus returned to Heaven, and was "glorified", this power to be omnipresent was return to Him, and He poured His presence upon His waiting disciples.  

"This refers to the omnipresence of the Spirit of Christ, called the Comforter." {Lt7-1891}

"We want the Holy Spirit, which is Jesus Christ. If we commune with God, we shall have strength and grace and efficiency." {Lt66-1894}

If you are going to quote Ellen White, then be prepared to consider everything she said on the subject. 

Jesus poured out the gift. 

That fits with Matthew 3:11 "I [John] indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He [Christ] who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." 

QUESTION:  How could one divine being "baptize with" another divine being? 
 

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8thdaypriest
16 hours ago, CoAspen said:

The above statement is not logical.

Debates don't come about because something is 'unclear' or 'clear'. The Isrealites wandered around in the wilderness for 40 years not because Gods message was 'unclear'. Humans are the issue, not God!! 

 

 

20 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Debates have run on for centuries over this topic, and I could never see the sense in any of it
because Scriptures are quite clear on this subject:

The implication is that persons who disagree with your view are somehow resisting the plain revelation of God. 

The Scriptures may SEEM "quite clear on this subject" to you,    but they seem equally clear to others like myself, who do not share your view.  

I do not accuse you of being "stiff necked" as the Ancient Israelites were, resisting the Holy Spirit.

I believe your stated views are sincerely held. 

Can we not treat each other with respect?

I post the references, and then I try to explain what they say to me, in as few words as possible.   That's all.  I do NOT then say things like "this is absolutely clear", implying that anyone who disagrees is just blind, stupid, or deliberately resisting God.   

 

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Gail
1 hour ago, debbym said:

we are not too busy to breathe.  we breathe while we do everything we do.  prayer is breathing spiritual life, exhaling and inhaling, speaking to God and hearing God, even on a non verbal level.  

Just as we hear God's love and power in the roar of the surf, in the songs of the birds,  rush of wind in the trees, God hears us as we do our chores, and express our love to others, and think on the turbulent times we live in.  Most of what we experience and understand is nonverbal.   Most of what we know is non verbal.   Words are an effort to express the inspiration of our hearts.  God hears the unspoken cry of our hearts as clear as if we enunciated perfectly.  He wants us to hear the call of his heart to us.  He is drawing everyone to Him, God is speaking to everyone at every moment.  What we do with that drawing is what we do with our lives.  God is offering us life, eternal life.  We either respond and breathe and live  or not.

The Spirit hears what the Father say's to the Son, what the Son says to the Father.  We are so privileges to have the prayer of Jesus in John 17.  I would love to read everything the Father said to Jesus in response to His prayer.

Jesus said, I have made you known and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them....  The Spirit heard this and makes God's love known to us continually.

Everything God does is love made known, for God is love.

The realm of the Spirit is the heart- thank you, Debby :) 

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LifeHiscost
1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:


 

I post the references, and then I try to explain what they say to me, in as few words as possible.   That's all.  I do NOT then say things like "this is absolutely clear", implying that anyone who disagrees is just blind,stupid, or deliberately resisting God.

 

And yet on the other hand, if it is not made clear of the fact. we could jeopardize our own and possibly someone else's  eternal life.

On the contrary, it is you who wrong and defraud, and you do this even to your brothers and sisters.Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.....1 Corinthians 6

God is Love!~Jesus saves! :D

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LifeHiscost
7 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I am sorry; but I find this offensive and unnecessary. I am not posting here to "win" and I would never want someone thinking that I support this kind of posting. The Truth doesn't need this kind of "defense."  I have posted here in this topic, in good faith, just as I believe that is what Rachel is here doing. There is no reason to say this kind of thing about her at all. Maybe you should read your "signature" a little closer?

Rachel can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe her biggest concern is the "potential" dilution of "the name of Jesus" in what I am posting, and while I would not agree with that, I would agree with the fact she should be able to post her insights and opinions here with out worrying about this holy mumbo jumbo you have just hit her with. What you have done is no different than slapping her in the face, and whats really freaky is that you attached a Bible verse to that!

 

I have to admit I should have left off the part of that text that referred to "you", " On the contrary, it is you who wrong and defraud, and you do this even to your brothers and sisters." as it is not up to me to attach explicitly to anyone the heart's intent.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged....Matthew 7

Although I do not agree with all points of Rachel's understanding, by and large I appreciate most of her posts and see her as a dedicated servant of God. However if one shares the Word faithfully, we have an enemy in this world who makes it his primary purpose to make misunderstandings divide the body of believers.

The last few paragraphs in this repartee is a good case in point.

3 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:...10

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  :D   Hope you have a :happysabbath:

 

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8thdaypriest
2 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

And yet on the other hand, if it is not made clear of the fact. we could jeopardize our own and possibly someone else's  eternal life.

On the contrary, it is you who wrong and defraud, and you do this even to your brothers and sisters.Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.....1 Corinthians 6

God is Love!~Jesus saves! :D

Does this mean - in your opinion - that we SHOULD NOT voice different points of view?  

Is it a good thing - or a bad thing, to discuss different points of view?  On the one hand, we can strengthen our ability to voice our view, as we come back with answers to objections voiced by others.  On the other hand, parties may be swayed by our arguments, and may embrace what turns out to be falsehood.   

IF persons feel it is dangerous (it risks confusing others) to voice points of view that differ from their congregation, or their church leadership, their teachers or even their recognized "prophet" - then we should all abandon this forum  (at least the Theological Forum).   Let CA become just a social discourse, where members strengthen one another in faith, but do not rock the SDA boat.

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8thdaypriest
2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Rachel can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe her biggest concern is the "potential" dilution of "the name of Jesus" in what I am posting, and while I would not agree with that, I would agree with the fact she should be able to post her insights and opinions here with out worrying about this holy mumbo jumbo you have just hit her with. What you have done is no different than slapping her in the face, and whats really freaky is that you attached a Bible verse to that!

Thank you Wanderer,

Debates like the one in this thread, so often devolve - first into repetition, with each side posting the same points, just trying to word them differently, and then into some sort of dismissal - with one side dismissing the other personally (rather than just saying that he/she cannot accept the others views).   

I do NOT believe that the Holy Spirit is a third divine being, who should be worshiped.

I believe the Holy Spirit Comforter IS the personal presence of Jesus Christ with us and in us

That is my understanding - at this point in time - based upon my study of the Scriptures, and in consideration of recent scholarly debate which questions the traditional wording of Matthew 28:19.

Thank you to Stan, who started this thread, and to those who have defended opposing viewpoints. 

Rachel Cory-Kuehl,  prophecyviewpoint.com 

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LifeHiscost
2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Does this mean - in your opinion - that we SHOULD NOT voice different points of view?  Is it a good thing - or a bad thing, to discuss different points of view? 

31 And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;....Exodus 35

9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.....Proverbs 23

17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.....James 3
 
21 There are many plans in a man’s heart, Nevertheless the Lord’s counsel—that will stand.....Proverbs 19
 
God is Love!~Jesus saves! :D

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phkrause
On 6/23/2017 at 3:03 AM, The Wanderer said:

God is very particular about who and what we worship, and how we worship same. Bible prophecy reflects how it is wrong to worship the angels; but this does not mean that angels do not exist, just because we are told not to worship the angels. The Bible is replete with descriptions of the angels and how we can recognize the "good" angels, apart from the "evil" angels.

There is a direct command to not worship the heavenly angels, no matter what they do, or what they tell us:

In a similar way; it is like this with the Holy Spirit. There is no direct command to worship the Holy Spirit, but that does not mean there is no such thing as The Holy Spirit; for the Bible goes to great lengths to describe this Third Person of The Godhead for us. And in contrast with the direct command to NOT worship the holy angels, there is no direct command to worship, or to not worship The Holy Spirit. The Bible shows no support for our viewing The Holy Spirit in any ways that would, or would not involve worship of The Spirit. We are simply told throughout scripture, just what The Holy Spirit's role in the plan of salvation is. The Bible's description of The Third Person is very extensive, and cannot be mistaken.

I'm curious, where do I state that the HS doesn't exist? or am I wrong in my thinking? Again I will say, I was in agreement with the statement that nowhere does the Bible  and its writers state that we are to pray/not pray or worship/not worship the HS!

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Ron Amnsn

As I read through this thread I noticed that the trinitarian side has made a few good points and supported those with New Testament passages that attribute to the Holy Spirit actions that we associate with the personality of a distinct person  -- hearing, speaking, interceding, teaching, etc.  And because almost all of us grew up as trinitarians, it seems natural to understand those passages as proof that the Holy Spirit is a distinct personality.

However, the New Testament was not written to trinitarians nor by trinitarians.  The New Testament understanding of the Holy Spirit would have come from what the Old Testament says about the "breath" or "wind" of God, which our trinitarian translators have rendered into English as the "Spirit of God" (which implies personality, where the original language does not).  In the Old Testament the breath or wind of YHWH is an attribute of YHWH himself, just like all the other personal attributes of God, such as His hand, face, voice, lips, and arm.  The Old Testament uses the "breath" (or Spirit) of God interchangeably with YHWH himself.  So when the Old Testament says that something was done by the "breath" (or Spirit) of God, the Israelites and the Jews understood it as something done by YHWH himself.

When the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost it was accompanied by the sound of a mighty breath or wind.  So it makes sense that the New Testament writers also used words meaning "holy wind" or "holy breath" for the Holy Spirit, as did the translators of the Septuagint (the Greek Old Testament) a few centuries earlier.  While the Greek words do not imply a personal being, the English words "Holy Spirit" do imply a personal being.

One of the problems with the trinitarian doctrine is that it alters the gospel into something that is profane and repulsive to those who live by the Word of YHWH given in the Old Testament as Jesus did.  Jesus taught that the greatest commandment was, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." (Mark 12:29-30) which Jesus quoted from Deut. 6:4-5.  The modern Christian emphasis on the trinitarian doctrine changes that to , "The Lord our God, the Lord is three", which is something that cannot be accepted by faithful Israelites and Jews.  The noble Bereans would never have been able to confirm that teaching in the Old Testament Scriptures that they searched daily to see whether Paul's Gospel was true, (Acts 17:10) so trinitarianism was evidently not part of the gospel taught by Paul.  Paul wrote that his Gospel was for "the Jew first" (Romans 1:16).  The trinitarian gospel is definitely not for the Jew first, so it seems to be a different gospel than the one that Paul taught.

 

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8thdaypriest
10 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I will be off the forum for a few days but look forward to responding soon

Me too.

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LifeHiscost
18 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Does this mean - in your opinion - that we SHOULD NOT voice different points of view?  

Is it a good thing - or a bad thing, to discuss different points of view?  On the one hand, we can strengthen our ability to voice our view, as we come back with answers to objections voiced by others.  On the other hand, parties may be swayed by our arguments, and may embrace what turns out to be falsehood.   

IF persons feel it is dangerous (it risks confusing others) to voice points of view that differ from their congregation, or their church leadership, their teachers or even their recognized "prophet" - then we should all abandon this forum  (at least the Theological Forum).   Let CA become just a social discourse, where members strengthen one another in faith, but do not rock the SDA boat.

 22 Plans fail for lack of counsel,
   but with many advisers they succeed.

 23 A man finds joy in giving an apt reply—
   and how good is a timely word!

This is from Proverbs 15 and seems to agree with discussing various viewpoints of the Word. That would seem to me to be safe, especially if it is done after seeking the leading of the Holy Spirit in prayer for guidance and with a heart determined to honor and glorify God. Keep looking up!

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  :D

 

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JoeMo
On 6/23/2017 at 11:14 PM, The Wanderer said:

I forgot to mention above in my last post that the letters "NW" in brackets means "New World Translation" of The Holy Scriptures. (NW) Incase anyone was wondering. :)

Isn't this the Jehovah's Witness translation (or paraphrase)?  Not that it's a big deal; but using their Bible one can find "proof texts" that Jesus is not God.

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JoeMo

In some of my side studies on the trinity, a couple authors (Tom Horn and Mark Putnam) have opined that  Jesus "is Yahweh but He's not".  Jesus either explicitly or implicitly says that He and the Father are One.  He tells Philip that "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father"  The writer of Hebrews calls Jesus the "exact image of the Father".  They then propose that the Son is the earthly manifestation of Yahweh; and the Father is the heavenly manifestation.  They then go on to propose that the Spirit "is Yahweh but He's not"; using the same logic; proposing that the Spirit is the link between the heavenly and the earthly.  I'm not saying that I completely agree with their proposal; but it was rather novel (to me at least).

I cannot unequivocally say that the Holy Spirit is or is not a Person; and that if you disagree with me you are wrong.  I simply "doubt" the personhood of the Spirit.  I can't even admit to a vague understanding of the Godhead - I don't think any of us can in this realm.  He is beyond understanding.  His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts.  When I get to the Kingdom (by God's grace), I will believe whatever Jesus (the Word) tells me.  However, until then, I will always have questions about the nature of God.  That being said, Yahweh - the God of Israel and the God of Heaven - (as one, two, or three Persons)  will always be my God.  I will worship no other.

This thread - regardless of how "civilized" it has been for a long time - turned kinda nasty on this page.  I pray that we can return to discussing (rather than argue) this and similar subjects civilly.

" But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless." (Titus 3:9)

Not saying this is a foolish discussion; but it will become foolish if it turns into mean-spirited argument and quarreling.  I respect the scholarship that has gone on on both sides of this debate.

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JoeMo
6 minutes ago, Rahab said:

God is Spirit

Look at the name carefully

Holy SPIRIT

Holy GHOST

 

Welcome Rahab.  rather than take those words in isolation, look at their contextual use in scripture.  You will almost always find the "Spirit of Christ" or the "Spirit of the Father" mentioned in the same passage.  The Spirit is indeed holy; but so was the Ark of the Covenant and the Temple.  Neither of them was a Person.  A way to translate "Holy Spirit" more accurately is "holy wind" or "holy breath".

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8thdaypriest

This verse was in my devotional reading this morning:

Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

WHO is speaking here?

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

1John 1:3 "and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ."

I don't see a third divine being in this "fellowship". 

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8thdaypriest

Unless we see them all together, we forget how many times Jesus and his disciples affirmed that He was "sent" by His Father. 

1 John 4:14 “And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.”

    John 5:30  [Christ] “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me” (John 5:23, John 5:37).

    John 5:37 [Christ] “And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form” (John 8:16).

    John 6:39 [Christ] “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.”

    John 6:44 [Christ] “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

    John 6:57 [Christ] “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.”

    John 8:16 [Christ] “And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.”

    John 8:29 [Christ] “And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.”

    John 8:42 “Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.’”

    John 10:36 [Christ] “Do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God?’”

John 12:49 “For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.”

    John 17:21 [Jesus last prayer to His Father] “ ... that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.”

John 17:25 “O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.”

John 20:21 “So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”

Anything repeated this many times in Scripture, I think cannot be misunderstood. 

Jesus was SENT by His divine Father.  I see only TWO divine beings in these texts. 

God the Father was the God OF Jesus Christ. 

John 20:17 “Jesus said to her, ‘Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them,  I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

    Romans 15:6  “ ... that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

1 Corinthians 11:3 “But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.”

2 Corinthians 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,”

2 Corinthians 11:31 “The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.”

Ephesians 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,”

    Ephesians 1:17 “ ... that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,”

Colossians 1:3 “We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,”

1 Peter 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,”

    Revelation 1:6  “ ... and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.”

    Revelation 3:12 “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.”

Again - I see only TWO divine beings - Jesus and His Father. 

Again - this is repeated many, many times, by Jesus and by Paul. 

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Rahab
8 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Welcome Rahab.  rather than take those words in isolation, look at their contextual use in scripture.  You will almost always find the "Spirit of Christ" or the "Spirit of the Father" mentioned in the same passage.  The Spirit is indeed holy; but so was the Ark of the Covenant and the Temple.  Neither of them was a Person.  A way to translate "Holy Spirit" more accurately is "holy wind" or "holy breath".

Thank you.  

John 3:8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 
 

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Ron Amnsn
On 6/24/2017 at 8:34 PM, Ron Amnsn said:

So when the Old Testament says that something was done by the "breath" (or Spirit) of God, the Israelites and the Jews understood it as something done by YHWH himself.

In at least some cases it is also necessary for trinitarians to believe that something that the New Testament specifically tells us was done by the Holy Spirit was actually done by the Father himself rather than being the work of a separate personality called the Holy Spirit acting as a "third person of the Godhead". 

The New Testament tells us specifically that it was the Holy Spirit that was responsible for conceiving Jesus within Mary his mother.

Quote

Luke 2: 30-35 (ESV)
And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”
And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?
And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

Matthew 1:20 (ESV)
But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
 

The fact that the Holy Spirit was the active agent responsible for the pregnancy of Mary presents a significant problem for the trinitarian doctrine.  If the Holy Spirit is a separate personality that acts separately from God the Father then who would "God the Father" be the father of, since the New Testament is clear that it was the Holy Spirit that actually fathered Jesus?  Why would "the Father" be called "the Father" if there existed a separate "third person of the Godhead" that was actually responsible for fathering Jesus?  When trinitarians venture to answer this dilemma at all, they try to brush it off with the assumption that the actions of the Holy Spirit in this one case should be attributed to the Father instead.  By doing so trinitarians seem to accept and even insist on using (in just this one case) the proper Old Testament (and New Testament) understanding that the "Holy Spirit" (literally the "holy breath" or "holy wind") is actually an integral part of YHWH or Elohim himself rather than a separate personality acting separately from YHWH or Elohim as a "third person of the Godhead".

If trinitarians could take that correct Biblical understanding, which they use in the case of the Holy Spirit fathering Jesus, and extend that correct understanding to all the other instances where the New Testament speaks of the actions of YHWH himself as being done by the "holy breath", then a major obstacle that prevents Jews from accepting Jesus as the true Messiah would be removed.

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8thdaypriest

Ron spoke of the conception of Jesus in Mary's womb.  What about the resurrection of Christ.  Who is credited with that?

Who raised Jesus from death?  Answer:  God the Father

Galatians 1:1 “Paul, an apostle not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead,”

    Ephesians 1:17-20 “that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,”

Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who (or which) dwells in you."

Matthew 10:20 "for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you."

Romans 8:9  "Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

Is the spirit OF the Father, another divine being who does His work for Him, because the Father is not omnipresent?  I don't believe so. 

The Father has Spirit, and Christ has Spirit.   It is like saying they both have a mouth, or eyes, or arms.  They both have "breath".   My mouth is not another person, and neither is the sound of my voice, traveling through the air.  And neither is God's Spirit which goes out from Him, into all the universe. 

Matthew 6:6  Jesus said, "But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly."

Matthew 6:18 "so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly."

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