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The nature of the Holy Spirit

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8thdaypriest

I can absolutely understand WHY there needed to be TWO - of God

God the Father could not incarnate into human nature (divesting Himself of divine power), and then lie dead in a stone tomb - while at the same time upholding all things.   

If He had another being - exactly like Himself - then the second being could incarnate, and die, while the Father upheld all things by omnipotent power. 

And the first being could then resurrect the DEAD second being

But what need was there for a third being - especially an invisible one?

I can also understand perhaps the need for angels - to visit/appear to humans - with messages.  Or maybe this is just God allowing angels to participate in the plan. 

At any rate:  If God the Father is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent - He could do everything EXCEPT those things which His Son did.   

 

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Ron Amnsn
12 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I will no longer respond to your posts when they are personalized and editorialized like this. I didn't "call the question names." I asked in good faith if it would be "eisegesis" or "exegesis," quite different from what you alledge here. The facts are simple. You dont know me at all, and you actually have no idea what i am "really thinking." Your responses here show much "apriori," bias and mocking of those big evil "trinitarians."  I dont have any desire to respond to that kind of stuff. However, the question asked about the "fatherhood of the Holy Spirit" is a valid one, and would be worth a response in a future post.

You are right.  I shouldn't have presumed to know your motivation or beliefs.  I was wrong to do that.

What I was referring to when I said you "called it names" was your assertion that it was "a trick question" and "anti-trinitarion riddles and thaumaturgy questions".  Perhaps you were not referring to the question I had asked.
 

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8thdaypriest
10 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Now you are starting to wander into "the nature of God" stuff, and away from the nature of The Holy Spirit. Again, no one has said what you alledge the "trinitarians" are saying about "another Being, exactly like Himself." Who has said that, and which post did they say it in??

In my opinion, the writer of Hebrews said it.

Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" (NKJ)

If God "made the worlds" through His Son, that means the Son existed before He incarnated into human form and nature. 

The Son of God existed in "the express image" of God's "person" and upheld all things by the word of His power/authority - before He incarnated. 

"express image" was the Greek way of say exactly the same. 

In His last prayer - to His Father - Jesus asked His Father to restore to Him the glory He had with the Father - before - the world was.

John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

I see only TWO beings in the verses quoted.   So the reason this speaks to the "nature of the Holy Spirit" is because - if God is ONE being - God our Father, and Jesus was/is the actual, literal "son" of God the Father, then the Holy Spirit is NOT a third divine being.  The Holy Spirit is the Spirit OF God the Father, and Christ His Son. 

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Stan

To me, and I have said this before, I ask the question who is man who he thinks he can define God using human words, a concept that is bigger than we can think.  It is like the smartest ant telling outer ants how a super computer works. He can only use ant words and concepts.

 

It is called the mystery for a purpose.

 

It is like how can God always be? That makes our mind go blank as it fails to comprehend.

 

 

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debbym
2 hours ago, Stan said:

To me, and I have said this before, I ask the question who is man who he thinks he can define God using human words, a concept that is bigger than we can think.  It is like the smartest ant telling outer ants how a super computer works. He can only use ant words and concepts.

 

It is called the mystery for a purpose.

 

It is like how can God always be? That makes our mind go blank as it fails to comprehend.

 

 

Psalms 145:3  Great is the Lord, He is most worthy of praise,  No one can measure His greatness.

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LifeHiscost
3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

 

I see only TWO beings in the verses quoted.   So the reason this speaks to the "nature of the Holy Spirit" is because - if God is ONE being - God our Father, and Jesus was/is the actual, literal "son" of God the Father, then the Holy Spirit is NOT a third divine being.  The Holy Spirit is the Spirit OF God the Father, and Christ His Son. 

It is the Holy Spirit Who led me into my personal belief of and relationship with Jesus.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come....John 16

And since He is spoken of by Jesus with the personal pronoun "He" many times, the question arises if He wasn't a different entity of the Godhead, why did Jesus not use the term "I or the Father" when referring to what He, the Holy Spirit, would be accomplishing in and for His disciples?

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.....John 16

I will have to admit, Jesus refers to Himself and His Father as One, yet we allow Them to be Two. Doesn't seem a stretch to allow the One Spirit to be another. even as the Son is Another when He relates to His Father and Himself as One.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.....John 17

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.....1 John 5

Hope your Sabbath is a :happysabbath:

God is Love!~Jesus is Love! :D

 

 

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8thdaypriest
2 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

John 17:11  And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.....John 17

 

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.....1 John 5

Christ's disciples would be "one" - "as" Jesus and the Father were "one".   His disciples were certainly distinct individual beings.  So - if the Father and the Son are "one" in the same sense - then the Father and the Son are two distinct divine beings.  I'm with you there.  

I just don't see another divine being. 

You quoted 1John 5:7. 

2 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.....1 John 5

Almost all Bible scholars reject this verse as altered Scripture.  It is not found in the most ancient manuscripts. 

 

2 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.....John 16

You quoted John 16:14, but left off verse 15, which explains verse 14.

John 16:14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 "All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you."

I see only TWO Heavenly beings in these verses.  Jesus and His Father.  The Father glorified Christ. 

In Jesus' last prayer [addressed to His Father]   He asked His Father to "glorify Me".  How would God the Father "glorify" Christ.

Pouring His Spirit through His Son, would "glorify" Jesus.  Right?   It would restore to Jesus the ability to be omnipresent once again, and omniscient - so He could "know the heart".   Jesus asked to be glorified "with the glory that I had with You [Father] before the world was" (John 17:5).   What "glory" did Jesus have with God His Father, before the world was created?  He had the power to create the earth and all things.  He was omnipresent - just like His Father. 

Ephesians 4:10 "He who descended [into death and the grave]  is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things. (Eph 4:10 NKJ)

This is Jesus - the Son of God.  He descended first to earth, into human form.  Then He ascended.  But the verse says "that HE might fill all things".  How does Jesus "fill all things" unless He is the Spirit that fills us? 

And this is what Paul wrote:  "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1Cor. 15:45).  

No one seems willing to look at those last two verses I quoted.    Who do they say the Holy Spirit comforter IS? 

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8thdaypriest
3 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

It is the Holy Spirit Who led me into my personal belief of and relationship with Jesus.

I believe you LHC.  But how do you "know" that the Spirit Who led you was a third divine being.  You may have been drawn to Christ by God the Father.  Jesus did say that's how it works.

Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless My Father draws them." 

Jesus said,  "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. (Rev 3:20 NKJ)

 

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phkrause

So just a question!
 What does this verse mean??

Luke 12:10 Also, everyone who says something against the Son of Man will have it forgiven him; but whoever has blasphemed the Ruach HaKodesh will not be forgiven. CJB

Luke 12:10 And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven. NKJV

 

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LifeHiscost
1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I believe you LHC.  But how do you "know" that the Spirit Who led you was a third divine being.  You may have been drawn to Christ by God the Father.  Jesus did say that's how it works.

Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless My Father draws them." 

Jesus said,  "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. (Rev 3:20 NKJ)

 

The only response I can make myself is to ask why didn't Jesus just say say, I will guide you into all Truth if there was no difference between the Holy Spirit and Himself? And Jesus also says it will not be on be on His own authority, which it was Jesus Himself it would have been on His own authority.

13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come....John 16

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.....Matthew 28

 

OTOH we'll have all eternity to explore the attributes of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and we still will not have plumbed the vastness of the only God Who is Love. I'm looking forward to meeting you there.

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  :D

 

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8thdaypriest

Was the pre-incarnate Son of God, the same being that came out of Mary's womb?  Or was He changed into a different being?   Still the Son of God, but different because of being human, and limited in His powers. 

And was Jesus (the man) changed again - into another glorious powerful being, when He was "glorified" with the glory He had before He incarnated?   If so - then this glorious Jesus became a "third being". 

First being:  The pre-incarnate glorious, all powerful, Son of God - Creator of the universe (carrying out His Father's will and plan).

Second being:  The human Jesus - Son of God and man.  (Also carrying out His Father's will.)

Third being:  The glorified Jesus - Son of God and man. Once again all powerful, omniscient, and now omnipresent.  (Still not acting on His OWN AUTHORITY, but rather - carrying out His Father's will).

This would fit with Paul saying that "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit.  Some versions say "was made a life giving Spirit".   Jesus Christ "was made" Spirit, by His Father, when He was "glorified".   

11 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.....Matthew 28

Jesus would not have "all authority" except it was given to Him.  And Who gave Him this authority?  Answer:  His Father

John 5:22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son"

God our Father "has committed" to His Son, the authority to judge, and to execute judgment, on the earth.     Yet God the Father is still "head of Christ".    ("the head of Christ is God" -- 1Co 11:3)

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 "Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He [God His Father] has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.

28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."

In these verses, the Son continues under the authority of God His Father, and will for all eternity.  God the Father IS GOD.  God the Father put all things under Christ.  And Christ will be "subject" to God the Father. 

I just don't see a third divine being, in these verses.  

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8thdaypriest

"Well - it's a mystery.  We can't understand it." 

Does our limited understanding, mean we should not study and seek a deeper, fuller understanding?   I remember a Dr Ganga I used to work with.  He said he never would read the Bible or any other religious book, because it was all a great mystery, and we can't understand it anyway.  He used to say that he would "find out" after he died - which religion was right.  And if there was no life beyond death, then he would not have wasted his time, especially in religious disputes. 

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8thdaypriest
1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

Utter obscenities or profanities
Speak of in an irreverent or impious manner
Wish harm upon; invoke evil upon

Mrs White offered a 4th definition - which I agree with - for once. 

She said the "sin against the Holy Spirit" is an unchanging resistance of the Spirit.  She equated it with what the Israelites did during the 40 years wandering, what Judas did, and what Pharaoh did.

The only way God has, to reach us, to change us, to save us - IS by His Spirit.  So if we deny the existence of that Spirit, or deny that spirit is God's Spirit/Christ's Spirit, or resist this Spirit, then we will be lost.  The Bible's definition of "born again of water and of the spirit" - includes the infilling of the Spirit as the critical element.  Without that Spirit one cannot "see the Kingdom of God". 

The difference between "speak a word against the Son of Man" and "blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost" is - in my opinion - those who spoke against the human Jesus, not realizing that He really was/is God's Son - not realizing that He really did come out of the tomb alive.  Paul did that - and Paul was forgiven. 

If one feels the drawing of the Spirit, or sees other people transformed by the power of the Spirit, or witnesses miracles by the power of the Spirit, and then persists in calling that power, that influence, that Spirit - "of the Devil" - or just a figment of their own imagination, then Christ cannot "come in" to that person, to change them.  He cannot save that person.  He cannot forgive that person of their sins, because forgiveness comes only through Christ, and no one can come to Christ, unless they respond to the drawing of the Spirit OF God the Father.   

Essentially - the person who blasphemes the Spirit OF God, is blaspheming against God the Father. 

 

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Ron Amnsn
On 7/1/2017 at 10:29 AM, Stan said:

To me, and I have said this before, I ask the question who is man who he thinks he can define God using human words, a concept that is bigger than we can think.  It is like the smartest ant telling outer ants how a super computer works. He can only use ant words and concepts.

It is called the mystery for a purpose.

It is like how can God always be? That makes our mind go blank as it fails to comprehend.

I agree.  Our words are are insuffiecient to describe God.

We would be better off to just accept what God has revealed in the Bible and not try to add our own theories and explanations.  In that way we wouldn't drive away those who fully accept what the Old Testament says about God.  It's when we add theories and words that are not found in the Bible that we create barriers that make it far harder for religious Jews to accept Messiah.

Just a couple days ago I watched a short new animated video that was explaining the foundations of liberty in the United States.  It was quite good.  However, the video asserted that one of the foundational principals of liberty in the US was a belief in the trinity, which is not historically accurate. The triangle diagram that the video used to explain the trinity stated explicitly that the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit.  Those statements and go well beyond what is stated in the Bible, make the trinity appear to consist of three Gods, and create an unnecessary barrier keeping religious Jews from accepting Jesus as the Messiah.

The trinity doctrine is certainly not the only barrier that religious Jews face in accepting the Messiah of the New Testament.  However, the Old Testament contains passages that can help Jews overcome all the other challenges presented by the message of the New Testament (when accurately translated).  Without the stumbling blocks created by the extra man-made claims and theories about the Godhead, the modern Jew can grapple with the actual claims of the New Testament in exactly the same way the Jews did in New Testament times, which resulted in many tens of thousands of devout religious Jews becoming followers of Messiah.  It's when Christians extrapolate beyond what is actually stated in Scripture that the stumbling blocks become virtually insurmountable.  To ask a religious Jew to accept the typical Christian explanation of the trinity is very much like asking the religious Jew to accept paganism and idol worship and to reject important parts of God's Word. 

If Christians are serious about taking the Gospel to the whole world, they should seriously consider abandoning the vocabulary of the trinity doctrine and to use only the words of Scripture (accurately translated from Hebrew and Greek) to explain the Godhead.

What was it that Jesus said about those who cause others to stumble?  (Luke 17:2)

 

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APL
On 7/1/2017 at 10:29 AM, Stan said:

To me, and I have said this before, I ask the question who is man who he thinks he can define God using human words, a concept that is bigger than we can think.  It is like the smartest ant telling outer ants how a super computer works. He can only use ant words and concepts.

 

It is called the mystery for a purpose.

 

It is like how can God always be? That makes our mind go blank as it fails to comprehend.

 

 

People get disfellowshipped if they do not subscribe to certain creed statements on the nature of God. 

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8thdaypriest
2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Only an omnipresent personal God, not an impersonal influence, nor a created being, could perform the miracle of bringing the divine Christ to one individual, Mary. At Pentecost the Spirit made the one God-man, Jesus, universally present to all willing recipients.

Wanderer,

Thank you for that good summary of your view on this topic.  I respect your view, even if I do not agree with it.  And I do not believe anyone will be "lost" because they believe, or do not believe, that "the Holy Spirit" is a third divine being.  Jesus will make it all plain someday.  To my mind, the importance of my view is because it supports Jesus teaching that "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son."  If God is not a "He" - but rather is a "They", then this verse is not literally true.  It's just what seems to be true. 

 

I AGREE that the Holy Spirit "is a personal being".    That's because I believe The Holy Spirit IS God our Father.   Jesus said, "God is Spirit." 

HE is the original un-created "spirit of life" - the SOURCE of all life.  Jesus taught us to call HIM "Father". 

A second divine being was begotten from the first.  We call Him "the Son of God" because He was begotten from God the Father.  God actually BECAME a Father, when He beget His Son.

In your view, this is not true.  Jesus was 1/3 of a trio of co-equal, co-eternal divine beings, and one of them took the role of "son", while another took the role of Father, and another the role of invisible "spirit".  

 

When Jesus returned to Heaven, the Father "glorified" Him.  This is what Jesus had prayed for.  His last prayer is ADDRESSED TO His "Father". 

Jesus asked His Father to glorify Him.  He did not ask a third being.  And the Father promised to glorify His Son. 

The Father poured Himself through His Son - to us.  This is how the Father "sent forth the spirit OF His Son into our hearts".   This is how Jesus also "was made a life giving spirit" (1Cor 15:45).

Jesus said,  "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.  All that the Father has is mine, therefore I said that He will take of what is mine." 

Jesus equated "what is Mine" with "all that the Father has".  That means the Father would take of what was His own.   This was not a third being, taking of what belonged to Jesus.  No.  This is the Father taking of Himself. 

Everywhere we see "the Spirit" acting in a personal way - like a person.  We see this because God the Father IS a "personal being".  

 

Perhaps the difference between blasphemy against "the Son of Man" and blasphemy against God, is that one is blasphemy against the Son and the other is blasphemy against God Himself. 

I know the debate on this issue, will never be resolved one way or the other, but it has been stimulating and I appreciate your input very much.  I especially appreciate that you do not draw your "proofs" from the writings of Ellen White - just from the Bible. 

RC

 

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8thdaypriest
3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

It actually would not be important, which verses you were quoting here; there is no mention saying how many members of the Godhead there are. None of the texts you quote prove anything AGAINST there being The Holy Spirit.

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is:`Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." 

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LifeHiscost
1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is:`Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." 

However it is also written;

30 I and My Father are one.”....John 10

I still maintain we as a fallen race (mankind) are exploring Divine dimensions we have extremely limited capacity to comprehend, although other scriptures indicate disciples can share in the experience, to some extent.

11 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.....2 Corinthians

God is Love!~Jesus saves!   :D

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8thdaypriest
17 minutes ago, LifeHiscost said:

However it is also written;

30 I and My Father are one.”....John 10

I still maintain we as a fallen race (mankind) are exploring Divine dimensions we have extremely limited capacity to comprehend, although other scriptures indicate disciples can share in the experience, to some extent.

11 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.....2 Corinthians

God is Love!~Jesus saves!   :D

Yes LHC.  Guess we will just have to wait til we get "There". 

If it is "not essential for us to know" (according to EGW) then it cannot be a salvational issue. 

Thanks for the debate.

RC

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LifeHiscost
1 minute ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Yes LHC.  Guess we will just have to wait til we get "There". 

If it is "not essential for us to know" (according to EGW) then it cannot be a salvational issue. 

Thanks for the debate.

RC

If we are a child of God and a friend and brother/sister of Jesus, plus find confidence in the promises of the God Who cannot lie, we have every reason to hope beyond hope.

1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior...Titus 1

Keep looking up!

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  :D

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JoeMo
On 6/30/2017 at 9:53 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

Joe,  I envy your trip "in the wilds of New Mexico".  Doubt I could still breathe at that altitude.

I want to move to the area around Taos.  What beautiful country and what beautiful people!

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JoeMo
On 7/3/2017 at 6:08 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

If it is "not essential for us to know" (according to EGW) then it cannot be a salvational issue. 

I agree, Rachel.  In a more general sense, I think it is impossible for us to know the essence of God until we get to the Kingdom.  I'm sure it will be made more clear when we get there; although I kinda doubt that we will ever be able to completely understand God.

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8thdaypriest
29 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

I agree, Rachel.  In a more general sense, I think it is impossible for us to know the essence of God until we get to the Kingdom.  I'm sure it will be made more clear when we get there; although I kinda doubt that we will ever be able to completely understand God.

I absolutely believe that we will never completely understand God.  How will we grow and learn for all eternity, if we "know" it all?  For me, learning something new, or connecting a new "dot" is pure joy.  For me, "Heaven" is not just green pastures and tame animals and a beautiful City.  It is learning for all eternity. 

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Rahab

Joh 20:22  And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

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