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The nature of the Holy Spirit

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8thdaypriest
On 7/5/2019 at 12:23 AM, Gustave said:

Where does the Holy Spirit fit into your beliefs? 

I do not believe the Holy Spirit is a third divine being

God our Father is spirit.  He is above, and through everything.  That makes God the Father the great Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:6 “one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”

He was "in" Christ. 

Jesus said, "the Father who dwells in me, does the works" (John 14:10). 

John 17:21 [Jesus last prayer to His Father] “ ... that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.”

 

God the Father has "sent forth the spirit of His Son" (Gal 4:6).  This is the comforting spirit - the presence of Jesus with us always. 

We have both the Father and His Son - with us, and in us (if we want them).

“Our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son” (1John 1:3, 1John 2:24).

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him." (NKJ)

I don't see a third divine being mentioned. 

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8thdaypriest
On 7/5/2019 at 12:23 AM, Gustave said:

Where does the Holy Spirit fit into your beliefs? 

Everyone quotes John 15 and 16 and the third person pronouns.

    John 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.”

    John 16:13 “However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.”

There are simple answers that do not involve a third divine being.  I believe that Christ was speaking of His own glorified self, restored to omnipresence. 

When describing His glorious, He also referred to the Himself in third person, describing the one sitting on "the throne of His glory".

"The last Adam was made a life-giving spirit."  1Cor. 15:45.  The "last Adam" is Jesus Christ.  If Jesus has been made "spirit", is He not with us and in us - as Spirit?

Here is the link to my study on the Spirit.  I went through the NT and listed every passage that mentions the Spirit.  My commentary follows the verses.

https://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/47m-HS-TheHolySpirit-ANTReview.htm

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JoeMo

Hey Rachel,

Welcome back!  To say you have been sorely missed would be an understatement.

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Gustave
2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Everyone quotes John 15 and 16 and the third person pronouns.

    John 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.”

    John 16:13 “However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.”

There are simple answers that do not involve a third divine being.  I believe that Christ was speaking of His own glorified self, restored to omnipresence. 

When describing His glorious, He also referred to the Himself in third person, describing the one sitting on "the throne of His glory".

"The last Adam was made a life-giving spirit."  1Cor. 15:45.  The "last Adam" is Jesus Christ.  If Jesus has been made "spirit", is He not with us and in us - as Spirit?

Here is the link to my study on the Spirit.  I went through the NT and listed every passage that mentions the Spirit.  My commentary follows the verses.

https://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/47m-HS-TheHolySpirit-ANTReview.htm

1st Corinthians 15,45

Jesus DID become a life giving spirit. 

1 Peter 3,18: For Christ also died[b] for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;  in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.  Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,  who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

 

Christ was killed on the Cross but made alive in the Spirit "IN WHICH" [the spirit] He went to preach to the Spirits in prison. These "spirits" Christ went "TO PREACH TO" dated back to the days of Noah. The Last Adam was made a life giving spirit (1st Cor 15,45) & that's absolutey true according to 1 Peter 3,18.

The text says Christ DIED for our sins and that the reason for His Death was to "bring us to God". The text is explicit that Christ was "put to death in the flesh" BUT made alive in the Spirit. Christ DIDN'T have "flesh" prior to the Incarnation -- or is this what you are thinking? 

I should probably clear my understanding up before I write more.

So, the question is do you believe that Christ, AFTER the Resurrection had "flesh" but subsequent to that, at some point, became a spirit? 

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8thdaypriest
13 hours ago, Gustave said:

Christ DIDN'T have "flesh" prior to the Incarnation -- or is this what you are thinking? 

Correct.  Prior to His incarnation, He existed as Spirit - just like His Father.

He died as a human being - with flesh.  He was resurrected by His Father.     

After He was resurrect, He still had "flesh" - and bone. 

 Luke 24:39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." (NKJ) 

40 days after He was resurrected, He was taken up to Heaven.  On Pentecost Christ was "glorified" by His Father.  It was on that day that Christ was "made spirit".  The Father poured Himself into and through His Son completely and powerfully.  Christ then poured out His spirit upon His waiting disciples. 

John the Baptist prophesied, speaking of Christ - "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." 

 

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Gregory Matthews

SDAs would agree that Christ took on human flesh at the incarnation.

In addition, we would say that we really do not know what it means when the Bible talks about God being a spirit.   IOW, the nature of God is simply beyond our human understanding.

We do not speak of God as being a ghost,   in the common understanding today.

 

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8thdaypriest
13 hours ago, Gustave said:

Christ was killed on the Cross but made alive in the Spirit "IN WHICH" [the spirit] He went to preach to the Spirits in prison. These "spirits" Christ went "TO PREACH TO" dated back to the days of Noah. The Last Adam was made a life giving spirit (1st Cor 15,45) & that's absolutey true according to 1 Peter 3,18.

  The Son of God existed - as Spirit - prior to His incarnation.  As Spirit - He spoke through the prophets of the OT, including Noah.

 1 Peter 1:11  "They [the prophets of the OT] probed into what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating when He testified beforehand about the sufferings appointed for Christ and his subsequent glory. (NET)

The "spirits in prison" are not folks who have left their bodies at death, and gone to Hell.  They are folks who lived back in Noah's day, who were enslaved by, deceived by, imprisoned by - Satan.  Noah pleaded with them to accept God's escape plan  - to get on the ark.

The words "set free" are used frequently to describe those who come to know Christ.   They are "set free" from the prison of demonic deception, and/or enslavement.  They are not dead people in Hell after their deaths.  IMO

 

 

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8thdaypriest
19 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

SDAs would agree that Christ took on human flesh at the incarnation.

In addition, we would say that we really do not know what it means when the Bible talks about God being a spirit.   IOW, the nature of God is simply beyond our human understanding.

We do not speak of God as being a ghost,   in the common understanding today.

 

There were times - during the OT period - when the Son of God appeared in human form.  He appeared to Abraham (with two of His angels).  He wrestled with Jacob.  He appeared to Moses and 70 elders of Israel, standing on a blue pavement.  He appeared to Ezekiel.  

His "form" was "like" that of a man.  He could simply have taken that form for His appearance, to facilitate His communication, to assure the human being that He was a real personal being.   Same thing could be true of the angels who appeared to men. 

We don't really know what it means to be "spirit".   Is it pure energy - organized energy?   Might be.

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Gustave
7 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Correct.  Prior to His incarnation, He existed as Spirit - just like His Father.

He died as a human being - with flesh.  He was resurrected by His Father.     

After He was resurrect, He still had "flesh" - and bone. 

 Luke 24:39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." (NKJ) 

40 days after He was resurrected, He was taken up to Heaven.  On Pentecost Christ was "glorified" by His Father.  It was on that day that Christ was "made spirit".  The Father poured Himself into and through His Son completely and powerfully.  Christ then poured out His spirit upon His waiting disciples. 

John the Baptist prophesied, speaking of Christ - "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." 

 

You have presented me with a significantly sized Theological  affirmation that will take me a bit of time to unpack.

You are saying that on Pentecost, The Father possessed Jesus in a literal sense and that this powerful incident vaporized / destroyed Jesus' Resurrection Body - leaving only his (Jesus') Spirit?

To make certain I'm understanding what I think you are relaying to me - you are affirming, essentially Matthew 10:28 applied to Christ on the day of Pentecost, with the caveat being God destroyed Christ's Resurrection Body so that Christ could be "spiritually" present with believers AFTER the process you described above. Do I understand you right?

 

 

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Gregory Matthews

Gustave, I do not understand Rachel as saying that.

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JoeMo
3 hours ago, Gustave said:

To make certain I'm understanding what I think you are relaying to me - you are affirming, essentially Matthew 10:28 applied to Christ on the day of Pentecost, with the caveat being God destroyed Christ's Resurrection Body so that Christ could be "spiritually" present with believers AFTER the process you described above. Do I understand you right?

Gustave,

We honestly don't know what happened after Jesus went to heaven.  Like Gregory said earlier, God is way beyond our understanding.  Does Jesus still have a physical body?  We don't know.  Is His Spirit here among us until the end of the age? Yes; that we can be sure of.  How does that work? I don't have a clue.  We can hypothesize all we want; but we just don't know.  We do know (I think) that He will have a physical body when He returns to earth.

"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body," (Phil. 3:20-21)

Verses like this make me suspect that both Christ and we will have glorified physical bodies in the Kingdom.

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Gustave
16 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Gustave,

We honestly don't know what happened after Jesus went to heaven.  Like Gregory said earlier, God is way beyond our understanding.  Does Jesus still have a physical body?  We don't know.  Is His Spirit here among us until the end of the age? Yes; that we can be sure of.  How does that work? I don't have a clue.  We can hypothesize all we want; but we just don't know.  We do know (I think) that He will have a physical body when He returns to earth.

"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body," (Phil. 3:20-21)

Verses like this make me suspect that both Christ and we will have glorified physical bodies in the Kingdom.

You believe this is plausible?

How many people here do you estimate think what 8th day is suggesting is plausible?

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Gustave
2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Gustave, I do not understand Rachel as saying that.

She said;

"40 days AFTER He was resurrected, He was taken up to Heaven [I agree with this].  On Pentecost Christ was "glorified" by His Father [ok]It was on that day [the day of pentecost] that Christ was "made spirit"The Father poured Himself into and through His Son completely and powerfully.  Christ then poured out His spirit upon His waiting disciples."

Rachel confirmed Christ (prior to the Incarnation) was pure spirit [ full agreement with me on that ]

Rachel confirmed Christ rose from the dead with "HIS BODY" [ full agreement with me on that ]

Rachael however says that Christ, on the day of Pentecost, had His body vaporized by The Father, who turned Christ back into pure spirit and that THIS (newly organized Christ) is what the Holy Spirit is. 

I'm afraid I can't agree to that and if that's not what was said would someone please point out to me where I got my wires crossed with what was said. I went as far as to ask for clarification. 

 

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Gregory Matthews

O.K.  I am beginning to understand why your have understood Rachel as you did.  So, I will wait to see  what she says as to how you have understood her.

Rachel is a valued person here in this forum.  It should be clear that at times she presents views that are not held by SDAs.  That is O.K.  It seems that in this exchange, she has  presented a couple of views that SDAs would not agree with.  

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JoeMo
12 hours ago, Gustave said:

You believe this is plausible?

How many people here do you estimate think what 8th day is suggesting is plausible?

If Rachel indeed meant that God literally "vaporized" (as you put it) Jesus' physical body and returned Him to a pure spiritual state, I would probably side with you on this.  If she meant that His "God stuff" was fully returned to Him so He could send His "God stuff" to be with us, I would have to side with her.  That is what I believe.  That being said, I have no idea what that looks like.

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8thdaypriest
17 hours ago, Gustave said:

You have presented me with a significantly sized Theological  affirmation that will take me a bit of time to unpack.

You are saying that on Pentecost, The Father possessed Jesus in a literal sense and that this powerful incident vaporized / destroyed Jesus' Resurrection Body - leaving only his (Jesus') Spirit?

To make certain I'm understanding what I think you are relaying to me - you are affirming, essentially Matthew 10:28 applied to Christ on the day of Pentecost, with the caveat being God destroyed Christ's Resurrection Body so that Christ could be "spiritually" present with believers AFTER the process you described above. Do I understand you right?

 

 

I do not believe the Father destroyed Jesus resurrection body.   Many years after His resurrection, when He appeared to John, He appeared with a body.  In fact His hair had turned white.  It was not white when He was crucified.  

Describing events which will take place at the glorious return of Christ, for those who belong to Christ, Paul said the dead would be "raised incorruptible" (immortal), and the living would be "changed" in an instant. 

1 Corinthians 15:52 "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (NKJ)

Exactly what the "change" is, we just don't know.   Paul says we will have a "spiritual body". 

1 Corinthians 15:44  "It is sown (in the grave) a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." (NKJ)

Paul also called it "our heavenly house".  He described three states:  1. This earthly house - flesh body  2.  naked - without a body (=dead)  3. clothed again with a "heavenly house" - the new spiritual body (2Cor cpt 5).

1 John 3:2  "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." (NKJ)

So we will be "changed" in the same way that Christ was changed when He was resurrected.  That does not mean that we will also be 100% glorified in the same way, to the same degree that Christ was glorified by His Father. 

Hope I've explained that OK

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8thdaypriest
44 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

If Rachel indeed meant that God literally "vaporized" (as you put it) Jesus' physical body and returned Him to a pure spiritual state, I would probably side with you on this.  If she meant that His "God stuff" was fully returned to Him so He could send His "God stuff" to be with us, I would have to side with her.  That is what I believe.  That being said, I have no idea what that looks like.


In my mind, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of both the Father and the Son.   You can't have one without the other.

1 John 2:23 "Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also." (NKJ)

“Our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son” (1John 1:3, 1John 2:24).

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."  (NKJ)

Notice: no mention of a third divine being in this - just the Father and His Son. 

On earth Jesus said, "the Father who dwells in me, does the works".  (John 14:10)  I multiply that by an infinite factor, after Jesus has his immortal indestructible "spiritual body". 

The Father - pouring Himself (His spirit) through His Son, enables His Son to share the Father's divine powers.  The Son's powers are not independent of His Father's.   The Son is the channel, the medium - through whom the Father pours His Spirit upon those who love them both. 

Believers experience that Spirit as the presence of Christ with us.  Only when we study a little deeper, do we realize that we have "the Father also".  

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8thdaypriest

The Father knew - before any sentient being was created - that those beings would experiment, would rebel against His will, with the inevitable consequences.  He knew that a rescue would be needed, which would require His death.  But the Father could not die (really totally die) while He continued to "uphold all things".   There had to be two of Him.  One would die, while the other kept the universe going.

So the Father beget a "Son".   His Son would be the One to die, while the Father kept their creation alive.   

Once the Son was begotten - after that point (which was "the beginning") the Father then acted "through" His Son. 

The Father created "through" His Son.  He communicates through His Son.  He judges through His Son.  He executes wrath through His Son.  He heals and restores through His Son. 

His Son would take the "form" of the created being, to facilitate communication. Also to act as the role model.  His Son would die, in a manner visible to witnesses, to provide evidence of the Father's infinite love for His creation.  

There is one period of time - the time during Christ's incarnation in human flesh - when God the Father acted more directly.  

Jesus said,  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44 NKJ)

The Father drew them - no third divine being is mentioned. 

 

 

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8thdaypriest

    1 Peter 3:18-20  “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.”

Christ was resurrected (made alive) by the Spirit, and He went and preached by the SAME spirit. 

Who resurrected Christ?  Answer:  His Father.  Rom. 8:11, Gal. 1:1

So the Father is the great Spirit by whom Christ preached - both before His incarnation and after His return to Heaven. 

Which goes to my belief that God the Father has always communicated through His Son. 

Peter says "the Spirit of Christ who was in them" testified through the prophets. 

Which goes to my belief that you can't have One without the Other.  If you have the Son, you have the Father also. 

There is "one Spirit" - not two - and that Spirit is the spirit of both the Father and the Son. 

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JoeMo
7 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Which goes to my belief that you can't have One without the Other.  If you have the Son, you have the Father also. 

There is "one Spirit" - not two - and that Spirit is the spirit of both the Father and the Son. 

Jesus said "I and the Father are One".  I agree - you can't have one without the other.  While the Spirit is an integral part of God; it is the power , love, and grace of the Father and the Son; not a third entity.

9 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The Father knew - before any sentient being was created - that those beings would experiment, would rebel against His will, with the inevitable consequences.  He knew that a rescue would be needed, which would require His death.

This continues to amaze me. God created the angelic host.  One-third of them rebelled.He knew it would happen. Then He created humanity; and they rebelled.  He knew it would happen.  He sent His only begotten Son to die for us.  More people than not refuse to accept His sacrifice.  He knew that too.  Yet, He guarantees a Kingdom of free-will beings who will never ever choose to sin again.  This is one of the mysteries of the ages to me.

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8thdaypriest

In the thread on SDA fundamentalism,  I posted a long list of published quotations by Mrs White, showing the change from two divine beings, to three. 

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Gustave
On 7/9/2019 at 9:11 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

  The Son of God existed - as Spirit - prior to His incarnation.  As Spirit - He spoke through the prophets of the OT, including Noah.

 1 Peter 1:11  "They [the prophets of the OT] probed into what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating when He testified beforehand about the sufferings appointed for Christ and his subsequent glory. (NET)

The "spirits in prison" are not folks who have left their bodies at death, and gone to Hell.  They are folks who lived back in Noah's day, who were enslaved by, deceived by, imprisoned by - Satan.  Noah pleaded with them to accept God's escape plan  - to get on the ark.

The words "set free" are used frequently to describe those who come to know Christ.   They are "set free" from the prison of demonic deception, and/or enslavement.  They are not dead people in Hell after their deaths.  IMO

 

 

You are failing to read the text as it is.

"He was put to death in the body BUT MADE ALIVE IN THE SPIRIT."

He went to minister to SPIRITS in prison 8thday - AFTER He was put to death in the flesh.

If as you say Christ existed as Spirit in heaven and DIDN'T have flesh bone, organs, etc. are you saying He was somehow gifted flesh and then put to death in that flesh THAN came down to earth as a spirt so He could minister to live people living at Noah's time? 

I'm trying to flesh out a simple chronology of what you are asserting here. 

 

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JoeMo
2 hours ago, Gustave said:

You are failing to read the text as it is.

"He was put to death in the body BUT MADE ALIVE IN THE SPIRIT."

He went to minister to SPIRITS in prison 8thday - AFTER He was put to death in the flesh.

If as you say Christ existed as Spirit in heaven and DIDN'T have flesh bone, organs, etc. are you saying He was somehow gifted flesh and then put to death in that flesh THAN came down to earth as a spirt so He could minister to live people living at Noah's time? 

I'm trying to flesh out a simple chronology of what you are asserting here. 

 

Here's how I see it:

The pre-incarnate Christ always had the power to "put on flesh" (or at least the illusion of flesh).  He is God - He has the power to do whatever He wishes.  In His incarnation, He received the DNA for His physical body from Mary; and His "God" DNA from the Father.  He was 100% human and 100% divine.  Don't ask me how that works - I don't have a clue.

When Jesus died, I believe He was just as dead as anyone else.  Romans 8:11 talks about believers being alive in the Spirit as well:

"And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you."

When he rose from the dead, He had a glorified body - the same kind we will have when we are resurrected.  I believe He will be in that glorified immortal body when He returns to earth to set up His Kingdom.

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Gustave
39 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Here's how I see it:

The pre-incarnate Christ always had the power to "put on flesh" (or at least the illusion of flesh).  He is God - He has the power to do whatever He wishes.  In His incarnation, He received the DNA for His physical body from Mary; and His "God" DNA from the Father.  He was 100% human and 100% divine.  Don't ask me how that works - I don't have a clue.

When Jesus died, I believe He was just as dead as anyone else.  Romans 8:11 talks about believers being alive in the Spirit as well:

"And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you."

When he rose from the dead, He had a glorified body - the same kind we will have when we are resurrected.  I believe He will be in that glorified immortal body when He returns to earth to set up His Kingdom.

Agreed, God can do anything (except not be or cease to be God).

However, Romans 8,11 is speaking of spirit in a different context than does,

Hebrews 12, 22 - 24

Acts 7, 59

Acts 23, 8

Acts 23,9

Which affirm aside from Angels and Evil Spirits there exist a spirit inside of a person that departs at the death of the body. 

If one concedes that Paul refers the people alive on earth that they are actually being (at that time) joined with a "festive gathering" in heaven where present are Father, Son, Holy Ghost, countless angels and "the spirits of just men who have been made perfect". 

If one can concede that the next logical step to take would be to confirm that they [the spirits of people who had been made perfect] are conscious because they are in the immediate proximity of God & the Angels [who are conscious]. 

This is just my take on it. 

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JoeMo

As an SDA, I don't believe that we are consciously in the immediate presence of God when we die; I don't think that happens until after the resurrection.  Nonetheless, I understand where you are coming from.  I used to be Catholic.

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