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Gregory Matthews

Pacific Union Conference Leaders Take a Stand

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B/W Photodude
3 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

just to be clear, I never inferred that Sandra Roberts *couldn't* do the job well... She's probably doing an admirable job — women *can* be excellent leaders.

Since she was voted in as president knowing that her election would create a furor in the higher church echelons, one must make the assumption that all other candidates were a poorer caliber compared to Roberts.  The delegates, therefore, *had* to elect a female president — because she was the only alternative to unsuitable male candidates.  It's either that, or the SECC was thumbing its nose at the GC.

Just to be clear, I would not argue that a woman cannot be a good leader. Maggie Thatcher did an excellent job in England. Merkel in Germany ... not so good! I have no doubt there isn't a woman good enough to be president of the US. But like I said, that is politics and not the church.

Only suitable candidate?! They had the entire world of Adventism to consider and she was the only possibility? I really don't think that she is doing that good of a job considering what is happening in some of the churches in California ... so "thumbing noses at the GC" seems a likely explanation!

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Mark Leslie
On 11/13/2017 at 4:42 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

The Jewish religion exists in several different versions.  Some allow female Rabbis.

 

And what has Jewish religions outside of the clear hierarchy of the Bible have to do with this topic?

 

On 11/12/2017 at 10:37 AM, The Wanderer said:

Not quite, although I can see how that idea would help her story line. She, along with some men treat this as a rights issue, and nothing could be further from the truth.

"Social change comes hard, especially when people used the Bible to justify holding onto the status quo.  Men felt justified in hitting their wives because scripture says, Wives obey your husbands."

This is the sort of tactics pro WO people use. Note that it is always an attack on the integrity, the impure motives of those they disagree with. Build a strawman, attack it. Ad hominems abound. 

At the same time use a completely unrelated story of heroism and apply it to your own position. Who cares if the comparisons are irrational?

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Gregory Matthews

Mark Leslie:  My reference to the role that women have played in the Jewish religion was clearly related to a post that Phkrause had made.    

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The Wanderer
7 hours ago, Mark Leslie said:

This is the sort of tactics pro WO people use. Note that it is always an attack on the integrity, the impure motives of those they disagree with. Build a strawman, attack it. Ad hominems abound. 

At the same time use a completely unrelated story of heroism and apply it to your own position. Who cares if the comparisons are irrational?

I agree. Thats exactly what we are seeing.

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The Wanderer
On 11/12/2017 at 12:32 AM, debbym said:

it seems you are uncomfortable with individuals being free to even disagree with the publishers of this SDA Yearbook to not include one of the conference presidents..

I agree. Its not like the year book publishers have any kind of church authority. But they do have the right to protest and question, or at least they should have. I personally think they should have gotten the ok from higher ups to do this, but I dont know the chain of command very well so cant really comment more

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Gregory Matthews

Female ordination & Civil rights:

*  Was it a civil rights issue when SDA women sued the Pacific Press on account of males being paid more than females for the same work?

*  If female ordination is a civil rights issue, should religious rights trump the civil rights?

*  What do we think that the Lord  is telling us in China where females play a major role in the SDA Church?

 *  To what extent should the General Conference dictate this issue in places where the culture and laws differ from those of the U.S.?

 

 

 

 

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Stan

To me, I think this action by the PUC was child like.

I would rather them show how she made a difference.  it is coming across as she is a great mediocre COnference PResident who was able to keep the status quo.

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APL
4 hours ago, Stan said:

To me, I think this action by the PUC was child like.

I would rather them show how she made a difference.  it is coming across as she is a great mediocre COnference PResident who was able to keep the status quo.

And many men would like to see her fail and would actively work in that direction. Not very Christ-like.  It has already been stated on this thread that she is a better conference president that several men.  Should we now look at those men to see why they are inferior to a woman?  Sandy Roberts IS the president of the SECC.  By not publishing her name, the publishers are bearing false witness.  They are not telling the truth and they should be held accountable.

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The Wanderer
8 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Female ordination & Civil rights:

*  Was it a civil rights issue when SDA women sued the Pacific Press on account of males being paid more than females for the same work?

*  If female ordination is a civil rights issue, should religious rights trump the civil rights?

*  What do we think that the Lord  is telling us in China where females play a major role in the SDA Church?

 *  To what extent should the General Conference dictate this issue in places where the culture and laws differ from those of the U.S.?

Gregory, why such small fonts? I had to get out the magnifying glass to read this post.

If I have read the post correctly, my brief reply would be in regards to your point #3 which relates to any and all other points made, women should be sent or appointed to wherever they are needed and to where they can actually do the job. Biblical ordination is not a guy vs gal thing, nor is it a rights issue. It is there for those whom the Lord has specifically called upon to do the job and this call should be well demonstrated, and forget all the so callled "rights" hub bub.

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debbym
On 11/11/2017 at 3:40 PM, CoAspen said:

There are just laws and unjust laws. Lawlessness could aply to both if it came down to "a state of disorder". There is no law involved in this instance. No civil disobedience is involved either. 

not a formal civil disobedience, but a very civil disagreement.

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Gregory Matthews

Small fonts:  You should have seen it as first posted.  I had a hard time reading it.  I was able to increase the size to what was posted.

I have no idea as to where that came from.  By the way, this post is the largest that I am able to use.

 

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The Wanderer
4 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Small fonts:  You should have seen it as first posted.  I had a hard time reading it.  I was able to increase the size to what was posted.

I have no idea as to where that came from.  By the way, this post is the largest that I am able to use.

Must be your browser settings But the above is easier to read. :)

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Mark Leslie
On 1/14/2018 at 6:18 AM, Mark Leslie said:

And what has Jewish religions outside of the clear hierarchy of the Bible have to do with this topic?

 

"Social change comes hard, especially when people used the Bible to justify holding onto the status quo.  Men felt justified in hitting their wives because scripture says, Wives obey your husbands."

This is the sort of tactics pro WO people use. Note that it is always an attack on the integrity, the impure motives of those they disagree with. Build a strawman, attack it. Ad hominems abound. 

At the same time use a completely unrelated story of heroism and apply it to your own position. Who cares if the comparisons are irrational?

Ahh, the end justifies the means. I get it. Problem is, its a false analogy.

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Mark Leslie
17 hours ago, Stan said:

To me, I think this action by the PUC was child like.

I would rather them show how she made a difference.  it is coming across as she is a great mediocre COnference PResident who was able to keep the status quo.

Its strange that there is no fear of God in the hearts of men (Chrisitans?) who attack the character of Godly men.

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Mark Leslie
13 hours ago, APL said:

Why cant we simply delete a post of our own? 

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APL
58 minutes ago, Mark Leslie said:

Wow - you can see into the hearts of men. False witness? You really are making a stretch. If its punitive, then how is it bearing false witness? The people who need to be accountable are those that have cheated and lied to bring this whole pro-WO thing into a controversy within the remnant house of God!

The Great Commission of Matthew 28, is it just for men?  Where in the Bible does it say that only ordained men can baptize?  Where does it say that only the ordained cam baptize?  Where in the Bible does it say that only  ordained men can start churches?  Where does the Bible say you must be ordained to start a church?  What does ordination mean?  At a later date the rite of ordination by the laying on of hands was greatly abused; unwarrantable importance was attached to the act, as if a power came at once upon those who received such ordination {AA 162.2}  Yep - unwarranted importance is attached to the act today!

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debbym
On 11/13/2017 at 5:09 PM, B/W Photodude said:

That is interesting that the Jewish pastors are against ordination of women. Would be a good project for a qualitative research project!

what is a Jewish pastor?

a rabbi who is Christian?

a Jew who became Christian and pastors a church?

Is this Jewish by culture?  By having a Jewish mother?  There is no Jewish DNA.

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The Wanderer
On 1/15/2018 at 11:03 AM, APL said:

The Great Commission of Matthew 28, is it just for men?  Where in the Bible does it say that only ordained men can baptize?  Where does it say that only the ordained cam baptize?  Where in the Bible does it say that only  ordained men can start churches?  Where does the Bible say you must be ordained to start a church?  What does ordination mean?  At a later date the rite of ordination by the laying on of hands was greatly abused; unwarrantable importance was attached to the act, as if a power came at once upon those who received such ordination {AA 162.2}  Yep - unwarranted importance is attached to the act today!

APL, I often find disagreement with your posts, but in this case I will concede, well said. Thats a good quote to remember, as well as some of its surrounding passages.

I recall years ago when I was an active Elder in a large church. And I recall getting into some "hot water" for saying something like "every member a minister."  The ordination thing has never been about so called "gender parity," or some long drawn out falsehood regarding "equality" so called. The kind of thing we usually see when people are screaming for "rights" or "equality"  is "well you do it so why cant I?"  Being "ordained" by God is on par with being called by God; and being able to very clearly demonstrate that calling. I  could do a bunch of quoting at this point, but so far, I am only intending a brief comment as to my personal opinion.

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Mark Leslie
On 1/17/2018 at 9:42 PM, The Wanderer said:

APL, I often find disagreement with your posts, but in this case I will concede, well said. Thats a good quote to remember, as well as some of its surrounding passages.

I recall years ago when I was an active Elder in a large church. And I recall getting into some "hot water" for saying something like "every member a minister."  The ordination thing has never been about so called "gender parity," or some long drawn out falsehood regarding "equality" so called. The kind of thing we usually see when people are screaming for "rights" or "equality"  is "well you do it so why cant I?"  Being "ordained" by God is on par with being called by God; and being able to very clearly demonstrate that calling. I  could do a bunch of quoting at this point, but so far, I am only intending a brief comment as to my personal opinion.

Maybe you should read the entire chapter from Acts of the Apostles that he is quoting from. You might come away with a different opinion.

 

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