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What about the TRINITY....have we lost our WAY?


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Greetings again chilco,

16 hours ago, chilco said:

In your understanding it wasn't really God calling out of the bush to Moses, it was just an angel?

I suggest that you are in an environment that seeks to find the Trinity in the OT, and sometimes this involves ignoring what the OT Scriptures actually teach. Both Moses and Stephen state that it was an Angel that appeared in the midst of the bush. The word Angel means messenger and the message was from God. So Exodus states “He said”, this is an Angel delivering God’s message. Stephen states that it was “the voice of the Lord”. I believe that the Angel here is the mouthpiece for God’s words. Exodus states that Moses was afraid to look upon God, but this I believe is the Angel, as it clearly states that the Angel was in the midst of the bush, and thus the word Elohim is used for the Angel.

Exodus 3:1 (KJV): And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Acts 7: 30-33 (KJV): 30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. 31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, 32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold. 33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.

17 hours ago, chilco said:

Psalms 8:5 is talking about the creation of the human race that was created "a little lower than the angels" and was given dominion over the earth (compare with Gen. 1:28).
Later, in the NT the verse is used to show that by taking on human nature, Jesus was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death.   But I don't see any connection here as to angels claiming to be God in the OT. 

Psalm 8:5 clearly shows that the word Elohim here is best translated as Angels as confirmed by the exposition based upon this in Hebrews 2, and thus the translation of this word into Greek as angels. The Angels are not claiming to be God, rather it is the language that God uses for those who represent God. The Judges in Israel were also called Elohim John 10:30-36, and they also represented God as Jesus states.

Kind regards Trevor

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Greetings again The Wanderer,

45 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

This anti-trinitarian reply here in the first sentence is a classic, text-book example of an adhominem response, calculated to denigrate and portray the perceived “opponent” as “ignoring Scripture,” and that based simply on the fact that chico is [apparently] a Trinitarian.

Yes I agree, this was poorly expressed and gave the wrong idea and I apologise for this. What I was trying to say is that some of the OT Scriptures give a good introduction to the OT understanding of God, if we are careful in allowing these verses to teach us, and we need to come to these verses without our previous convictions from other sources.

45 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

A piece of ground on planet Earth would only be "holy" if God was there.  Do you know of anyone in the entire Bible who took their shoes off, or were told to take them off when there was an angel in their room?

I should imagine that you would also claim the following is God, even though it is not clearly stated. Joshua sees an armed man, and he then reveals himself as the captain of Yahweh’s host. He does not claim to be Yahweh Himself.

Joshua 5:13–15 (KJV):  13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? 15 And the captain of the LORD’S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Kind regards Trevor

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1 hour ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again The Wanderer,

 

 

Yes I agree, this was poorly expressed and gave the wrong idea and I apologise for this. What I was trying to say is that some of the OT Scriptures give a good introduction to the OT understanding of God, if we are careful in allowing these verses to teach us, and we need to come to these verses without our previous convictions from other sources.

 

 

I should imagine that you would also claim the following is God, even though it is not clearly stated. Joshua sees an armed man, and he then reveals himself as the captain of Yahweh’s host. He does not claim to be Yahweh Himself.

Joshua 5:13–15 (KJV):  13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? 15 And the captain of the LORD’S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Kind regards Trevor

 

 

angels did not accept worship.

Christ did command all the hosts of heaven. 

Christ appeared as a man to Abraham.

Joshua called this being "my Lord".

and this being repeated the words that God spoke to Moses. Take the shoes off your feet...

 

from ...Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Concise)

Verses 13-15 We read not of any appearance of God's glory to Joshua till now. There appeared to him one as a man to be noticed. This Man was the Son of God, the eternal Word. Joshua gave him Divine honours: he received them, which a created angel would not have done, and he is called Jehovah, chap. 6:2 . To Abraham he appeared as a traveller; to Joshua as a man of war. Christ will be to his people what their faith needs. Christ had his sword drawn, which encouraged Joshua to carry on the war with vigour. Christ's sword drawn in his hand, denotes how ready he is for the defence and salvation of his people. His sword turns every way. Joshua will know whether he is a friend or a foe. The cause between the Israelites and Canaanites, between Christ and Beelzebub, will not admit of any man's refusing to take one part or the other, as he may do in worldly contests. Joshua's inquiry shows an earnest desire to know the will of Christ, and a cheerful readiness and resolution to do it. All true Christians must fight under Christ's banner, and they will conquer by his presence and assistance.

 

and from... Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

14. the host of the Lord--either the Israelitish people ( Exodus 7:4 , 12:41 , Isaiah 55:4 ), or the angels ( Psalms 148:2 ), or both included, and the Captain of it was the angel of the covenant, whose visible manifestations were varied according to the occasion. His attitude of equipment betokened his approval of, and interest in, the war of invasion. 
Joshua fell on his face . . ., and did worship--The adoption by Joshua of this absolute form of prostration demonstrates the sentiments of profound reverence with which the language and majestic bearing of the stranger inspired him. The real character of this personage was disclosed by His accepting the homage of worship (compare Acts 10:25 Acts 10:26 , Revelation 19:10 ), and still further in the command, "Loose thy shoe from off thy foot" ( Exodus 3:5 ).

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Greetings Debbym,

 

14 hours ago, debbym said:

this being repeated the words that God spoke to Moses. Take the shoes off your feet...

The Mount of Transfiguration is stated to be holy when Jesus appeared in glory. Also a careful examination of the following shows that there is one God the Father, and that Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son. God the Father is the excellent glory because the glory that Jesus possesses is derived from His Father, and even when Jesus appears in glory, God the Father is called the excellent glory.

2 Peter 1:16-18 (KJV): 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17  For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18  And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

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I read a book written by a member of Philadelphia Church of Christ. A statement suggests that Trinity is originated from paganism.

There was a book many years ago written by an English professor in Japan titled "Trinity of English", this book was a book for foreigners to study English.  He might have borrowed "trinity" from christian religion, I do not know, but he explained the trinity as follows;

All language consist of 3 entity and must be learned by everyone. 1, Grammar, 2, Composition, and 3, Translation.  A foreigner try to learn the English can understand these "trinity" but for the English speaking natives may not understand.

This principal may apply to God head "trinity".

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Greetings again The Wanderer,

20 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

There is a reason that Moses took off his shoes during the burning bush incident. What was that reason? God Himself said that the place where Moses was standing was "holy ground."  The reason Moses took his shoes off was because he was standing on "holy ground."  But why was it "holy ground?" No place on earth is "holy" unless God Himself is there.

I was simply basing my comment on what you stated in your earlier Post above.

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Once again, an adhominem response is noted where I am told what I "must" believe when there is no way to know unless you ask me. You have no idea what my take is on that or any other text, you dont even know me nor have we ever met, and yet you presume to know what I "must" be thinking??  This makes it impossible to carry on any profitable discussion.

I did not say you must believe this, and possibly you had not considered the Joshua incident when you stated this. I was basing my comment on your statement that God Himself was there. The Mount of Transfiguration was holy when the Son of God was there in his glory. This does not prove the Trinity. Yes, I agree, we do not seem to be able to discuss these things.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

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Greetings again The Wanderer,

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

I should imagine that you would also claim the following is God, even though it is not clearly stated. Joshua sees an armed man, and he then reveals himself as the captain of Yahweh’s host. He does not claim to be Yahweh Himself.

  Trevor, you wrote this yourself.

It seems that Australian English or logic is different from Canadian English or logic. Possibly the problem is this end as we are descended from convicts and I have one of these Australian royalty in my ancestry. I noticed that you did not really comment on Joshua or the transfiguration, but I will accept this breakdown of Biblical discussion, and a reversion to who said this or that. I have stated my conviction based upon the Scriptures that Jesus is the Son of God, and when he appeared in glory the Mount was holy as Peter states.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

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Greetings again The Wanderer,

 

I hope that we could reconcile this. I am a technical person and find it difficult to express exactly what I mean in simple and clear terms, and it appears also that I have failed to be diplomatic. I have reviewed the Posts, and I was responding to the following paragraphs.

On ‎23‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 4:20 PM, The Wanderer said:

"Holy Ground."  Sounds simple enough, but what does this actually mean in terms of context? Not interpretation. But context. There are  two texts in the entire Bible that mentions it specifically as "holy ground" Exo_3:5  And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
Act_7:33  Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground. And so, of course, it would behoove the anti-trinitarian talking points to simply dismiss the possibility that it is "God" in the burning bush by way of text-book classic ignoring of not the text, but the context. Its not hard to deny direct divine activity and relegate it to indirect divine activity via proxy through non-divine entities in the text. And  when we decide to whip up a verse and say it means something that it does not, atleast it does not  as long as the context is left out.

There is a reason that Moses took off his shoes during the burning bush incident. What was that reason? God Himself said that the place where Moses was standing was "holy ground."  The reason Moses took his shoes off was because he was standing on "holy ground."  But why was it "holy ground?" No place on earth is "holy" unless God Himself is there. It is always "holy ground" when we go by faith into His presence on the wings of prayer. Because He is right there with us when we pray, or talk with Him.

A piece of ground on planet Earth would only be "holy" if God was there.  Do you know of anyone in the entire Bible who took their shoes off, or were told to take them off when there was an angel in their room? None of the texts you cited say God was not there, just because an angel was mentioned. There is much more that could be said, but I am trying to limit my posting in topics like this.

 

I was not certain that you also were considering the similar incident concerning Joshua when you wrote the above, but I was simply applying YOUR rule to this incident. There is a difference between “imagine” and “know”. My Australian dictionary has one option for “imagine” as “to conjecture or guess”. I suggest that what I said was a reasonable guess based upon what you had already said, that God must be there for the ground to be holy. Debbym also confirmed that she understands that it was Christ who appeared to Joshua. My answer is that the Mount of Transfiguration was holy when Jesus the Son of God, not God the Son, appeared in glory. I do not think that the Joshua incident and the transfiguration is simply rattling off other Bible verses, as I consider these to be relevant in understanding the appearance to Moses, especially the aspect of the holy ground.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

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Trevor and Wanderer,

As I said way back in this (or another ) thread on the Trinity, God is far beyond our understanding.  His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not ours.  As I've stated before, I'm not a trinitarian either; but it is the Personhood of the Holy Spirit that I question. To me, there is sufficient scriptural evidence to suggest that the HS is a Power and not a Person.

 Be that as it may, I accept Jesus as a Member of the Godhead.  As far as I can wrap my head around, the Father is the spiritual manifestation of God and Jesus is the physical Manifestation.  But I really don't think it's something worth getting personal over.  IMHO, none of us know; and we won't know until we we changed to be like Him.  I trust God and His love enough to know it doesn't matter what I think about the Trinity, it matters what He thinks.  And I'm willing to believe (rather - accept as fact) anything that He tells me.  Right now, He wants me to unconditionally believe that He - God, Yahweh, Jehovah, Jesus, or any combination thereof is the "Chief God" of the universe; and there is no other power in the universe that can save us from the wrath to come and give us eternal life in peace.

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Greetings again The Wanderer and Greeting JoeMo,

I hope you enjoyed your time in the forest. My impression of Canada in the winter is that it would be covered in snow. Our summer has been hot, with one day over 40degC.

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

As I said way back in this (or another ) thread on the Trinity, God is far beyond our understanding.  His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not ours.

I can understand your reserve concerning this subject, but I consider that it is important. One area of study is to examine the two main words used in the OT for God, Yahweh and Elohim. One aspect of this is the way that Elohim is used, including why Elohim is used for angels and judges. Also it could help to make a decision on the use of Elohim in Genesis chapters 1-3. For example who are the “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26, and the “us” of Genesis 3:22. Also it is interesting to determine why the KJV differs from many other translations in the following:

Genesis 3:5 (KJV): For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods (Elohim), knowing good and evil.

Genesis 3:5 (NASB95): “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

 

On the subject of Yahweh, I believe that the correct translation of Ehyeh is “I will be” as per Tyndale, and the RV and RSV margins.

Kind regards Trevor

 

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13 hours ago, TrevorL said:

One area of study is to examine the two main words used in the OT for God, Yahweh and Elohim.

I agree.  In my understanding, Yahweh is the Name or Title used to address the One True God also known as Jehovah and El Shaddai.  No other being in the universe can be addressed by these Names and Titles.

On the other hand, Elohim is used to address a broader class of spiritual beings, such as chief angels (archangels)  and the members of the Divine Council.  These are not all righteous beings.  From Psalm 82 in the Orthodox Jewish Bible:

(Mizmor of Asaph.) Elohim standeth in the Adat El; He judgeth among the elohim [See Ps 82:6 and Yn 10:34].

Ad mosai (How long) will ye judge unjustly, and show partiality to the resha’im? Selah.

Defend the poor and yatom (fatherless); do justice to the oni (afflicted) and needy.

Deliver the poor and needy; rid them out of the yad resha’im.

They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in choshech; all the foundations of ha’aretz are shaken.

I have said, elohim ye are; and all of you are Bnei HaElyon.

But ye shall die like adam, and fall like one of the sarim (princes).

These verses make me think that  There is the "Chief Elohim" (Yahweh), and there are lesser elohim (created beings) who were at one time part of God's Divine Council.  I would conjecture that satan was among them.  These "elohim" rebelled against Yahweh; and are now doomed to die like men (thrown into the lake of fire?)

As part of God's Divine Council, Yahweh could have indeed discussed the creation of man when he said "Let US create ..."  At that time, Yahweh's authority ruled over all, and the Council did as they were directed; in spite of the doubt and rebellion festering in some of them.  The gods of the OT were not simple graven idols - they were elohim who had rebelled against Yahweh; and are now doomed to eternal destruction.  In other words, Yahweh took away their immortality.

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Greetings again JoeMo,

 

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

In my understanding, Yahweh is the Name or Title used to address the One True God also known as Jehovah and El Shaddai.  No other being in the universe can be addressed by these Names and Titles.

I agree that there is One God, known in the OT as Yahweh (refer Rotherham’s introduction as one explanation) and El Shaddai, and in the NT as God the Father.  

I agree that Elohim can be used for the Divine Council, the Angels. The word Elohim is plural and can represent literally Mighty Ones. The Angels are not independent powers, as their power is derived from God. My understanding of Elohim is that in most contexts the word Elohim is Yahweh, God the Father, with the underlining meaning that Yahweh works in and through the angels. Thus God created in Genesis 1:1, a plural noun with a singular verb is Yahweh, the One God the Father, working with the angels to create the heaven and earth. This then flows smoothly into Genesis 1:26 where Yahweh invites the angels to participate in the creation of man.

 

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

From Psalm 82 in the Orthodox Jewish Bible

I differ in my understanding of Elohim in Psalm 82 as I believe that it is talking about the Judges in Israel who were appointed to help Moses in the process of judging Israel.

 

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

These verses make me think that  There is the "Chief Elohim" (Yahweh), and there are lesser elohim (created beings) who were at one time part of God's Divine Council. 

One Angel is sometimes given the Name Yahweh, but I believe that it is when he is representing Yahweh, God the Father, speaking and acting on Yahweh's behalf. This Archangel thus has this authority from Yahweh, God the Father and the Archangel makes decisions, but these are consistent with Yahweh's wisdom and will. Yahweh is thus exclusively the Name of God, the Father, Himself.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

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Greetings again The Wanderer,

One reminder of God’s hand in creation is the great variety of birds that visit my backyard, and only some of these are encouraged by a feed dish. Every few years there seems to be a variety that I had not seen before. My hobby has been to take pictures of all of these.

6 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Jesus provides part of the answer, when speaking about Himself and The father: "I and The Father are one." (John 10:30)  So right here we have the word "one" being used in a collective or plural sense.

I understand from this that Jesus, the Son of God is at unity with God the Father and John 10:30-36 explains Jesus’ relationship. The disciples are also to be in unity with Jesus and the Father John 17.

6 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Even back as far as Gen 1 God is spoken of in the pluralistic sense. "Let us make mankind in our image."

As previously mentioned I believe the “us” of Genesis 1:26 is God the Father and the Angels. Psalm 8:5 Yahweh made him lower than Angels is a summary of Genesis 1:26-27, showing that Adam was made in the image and likeness of God and the Angels.

6 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Also in Deuteronomy 6:4-5, when it says that “God is one,” the Hebrew word for “one” (echad) expresses a compound unity.

I am not proficient in word studies to verify this understanding of echad, but if so then it is similar to John 10:30 and John 17. Eventually the whole world will be united in God, when God will be all in all.

Kind regards Trevor

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Just to be clear, I never said I don't believe in the HS, I said I don't (currently) believe the HS is a Person.  I believe it is a Power - the power of the Father and His Son permeating the planet - like an divine interplanetary wireless power and communication network (poor analogy; but it's the best I can think of right now).  Is the HS part of God?  Yes - His omnipresent power and communication with us!  Is it a Person? I can't go that far.  But I'm not saying it isn't a person, either.  It might be.?

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Quotation form the book "Steps to Personal Revival" by Helmut Haubeil, page 54; "... this means that even the effectiveness of Christ's work for people is dependent  on the Holy Ghost. Without Him everything Jesus did on this earth - in Gethsemane , on the cross, the resurrection and His priestly ministry in heaven - would be unsuccessful. ......"

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On 1/20/2018 at 6:13 PM, APL said:

Speak about pick and choose!  Exhibit A.

You know it is not about picking and choosing, it is about truth. Those who want to hold on to something that is false will make this kind of comment. Looking at the facts, about the trinity. It is not in the Bible, it again rose up in a new a more permanent light by the Emperor Constantine. 

The belief in the Trinity is ancient and was known by as Brahma, Vishna, and Shiva; in Egyptian religion there is the group of Kneph, Phthas, and Osiris. In Phoenicia the trinity of gods was Ulomus, Ulosuros, and Eliun. In Greece they were Zeus, Poseidon, and Aidoneus.

In Rome they were Jupiter, Neptune, and Pluto. In Babylonia and Assyria they were Anos, lllinos, and Aos. Among Celtic nations they were called Kriosan, Biosena, and Siva, and in Germanic nations they were called Thor, Wodan, and Fricco. “God,” by Paul Johnson

Arian, a confused Jesuit priest, is how Constantine made the change that Satan wanted; using both of them. His main purpose was to changed the truth about the Union between THE ALMIGHTIES ONES working together. It was all about him and how he looked that he wanted to impose upon men. He also want to defeat that we, mankind was made in the resemblance of THE THREE INDIVIDUAL ALMIGHTY ONES.

First, getting us confuse about THE HOLY SPIRIT as a BEING more like a ghost, wind or breathe. HE is not any of the above concepts, especially a ghost. HE IS LIFE from the beginning. Confusion about our body being flesh and blood and with LIFE becoming a living soul. Not understanding that MICHAEL created the angels as spirits which is a body like HIS, THE FATHER and THE HOLY SPIRIT. Two different bodies so he again causes confusion making us believed that we also is made up of a spirit and we are not! The KJV confused and use the spirit for a mind and our senses because it is a pagan traditional belief, that the soul does not died!

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Eze 18:4 

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun. Eccl 9:5, 6  

Listen man had to eat from the Tree of LIFE to live in longevity.  This Tree had LIFE and will live forever has anyone else thought about that?

Satan final and ultimate goal is for man to worship his makeup and not THE ELOHIYM'S. 

Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. And everyone had four faces, and everyone had four wings. And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.  And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings. As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. Eze 1:5-8,10 

Of course he would have you to believe this is how THE ELOHIYM look, having the belief of one body with (get this), three persons. Our pioneers were lead to move from this belief. They did not fully understand THE HOLY SPIRIT. But yes EGW still clung to the wrong error that THE FATHER and SON were two persons. She was in error, the word person means a human being!

Read what she wrote: The Review and Herald, July 26, 1892, 1SM p. 15, 19

The Bible states THE HOLY SPIRIT never speaks of HIMSELF, MICHAEL came down in the Old Testament to Abraham, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, 70 elders, Nebuchadnezzar in HIS SPIRIT BODY and HE also did eat on two occasions. The Bible states clearly that HE took the Book of Life from HIS FATHER'S RIGHT HAND. THE FATHER and SON sits on Thrones even hearing THE FATHER speak to HIS SON to sit down on HIS RIGHT SIDE! THE FATHER has a FACE that we cannot look upon because of sin. THEY have FEET, LEGS, HANDS, THEY SPEAK, THEY CONVERSE with EACH OTHER. Ezekiel saw a movable Throne and John saw HIM too, HE was in THE MOST HOLY PLACE. Satan was heard stating that he would be above THE MOST HIGH a PRESTEGIST TITLE only giving to THE FATHER. YAHSHUA declaring that HE comes in HIS FATHER'S NAME. HE return alone to save us. HE tells this to both the priest and Pilate that HE with HIS Holy angels will return to earth. MICHAEL and HIS angels cast out Satan and his angels.

The theme of the Bible is THE FATHER, and how HIS SON stands to protect HIS FATHER'S HONOR, comes in HIS NAME, PRESENTS HIMSELF in both the Old and New Testament. THE HOLY SPIRIT is THE only ONE that also stands to lead men back to THE SON and then to THE FATHER. HE also stands not for HIMSELF but to protect THE FATHER and THE SON. THESE THREE INDIVIDUAL BEINGS respect EACH OTHER, THEIR UNIQUE POWER stands out in THEIR TITLE ELOHIYM meaning ALMIGHTY and that IS who THEY ARE without a doubt!!!!

Happy Sabbath praise to THE THREE INDIVIDUAL ALMIGHTY ONES!

 

 

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2 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

You know it is not about picking and choosing, it is about truth. Those who want to hold on to something that is false will make this kind of comment.

yeah - and you think that is what Froom was trying to do, point out the truth by plucking out a few statements from context.  And you think I want to "hold on to something that is false" implies I believe it is false. 

 

2 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

The belief in the Trinity is ancient and was known by as Brahma, Vishna, and Shiva; in Egyptian religion there is the group of Kneph, Phthas, and Osiris. In Phoenicia the trinity of gods was Ulomus, Ulosuros, and Eliun. In Greece they were Zeus, Poseidon, and Aidoneus.

In Rome they were Jupiter, Neptune, and Pluto. In Babylonia and Assyria they were Anos, lllinos, and Aos. Among Celtic nations they were called Kriosan, Biosena, and Siva, and in Germanic nations they were called Thor, Wodan, and Fricco. “God,” by Paul Johnson

Now that is come very convincing evidence of the "truth".  We should be like the pagans!

 

2 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

The Bible states THE HOLY SPIRIT never speaks of HIMSELF

 

You mean, just like Christ?  John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. (50) And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatever I speak therefore, even as the Father said to me, so I speak.

 

It is true:  "Long-cherished opinions must not be regarded as infallible. It was the unwillingness of the Jews to give up their long established traditions that proved their ruin. They were determined not to see any flaw in their own opinions or in their expositions of the Scriptures; but however long men may have entertained certain views, if they are not clearly sustained by the written word, they should be discarded."

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TrevorL wrote: "Angel means messenger "

That is correct!  The problem of course lies in the fact that the word "angel"  or "messenger" can be used in different ways.
1.  The created heavenly beings that surround God's throne and are sent as messengers, guardians, and other missions to earth.  Also known as cherubim and seraphim.
2.  The word can be applied to people who are entrusted with a message (as we see in the letters to the churches in Revelation which are addressed to the "angel" of each of the churches.

3.  The word "angel" as in "messenger" can be applied to ANYONE, heavenly or earthly,  with a message of importance.  

So -- the problem is that people tend to limit the word "angel" to definition #1, but the bible does not do so.

THE STORY OF JOSHUA

Joshua 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him,  Are you for us, or for our adversaries? 
 5:14 And he said, As the captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? 
 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest [is] holy. And Joshua did so. 

Notice -- first Joshua say "a man"  (but this was no ordinary man).   Who was He?

The ground where He stood was holy!  Joshua falls down and worships Him!  
Not a word of rebuke concerning this worship comes from this Being Who has come to direct the battle.   He is worthy of worship. 
The verses declare that He is the captain  over all Jehovah's hosts.
Go to Rev. 19 and you will meet Him again.   It is none other than Christ, and He is God,  one with God the Father.   He is God manifest, personally bearing the message from the throne of God to the created humanity.

Rev. 19:16 And he has on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 

 

WHAT ABOUT ANOTHER JOSHUA?

You'll find the story in Zachariah chapter three.
 
In this prophecy of Zechariah we see Satan's accusing work, and the work of Christ in vindicating His people. 
The prophet says, "He showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord

An Angel?  How is the word used here?

he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. And I said, Let them set a fair miter upon his head. So they set a fair miter upon his head, and clothed him with garments."

No, created being, even those we think of as the angels surrounding God's throne, has the power to forgive our iniquity and clothe us the garments of righteousness,

This glorious messenger iis none other than Christ, and He is God,  one with God the Father.   He is God manifest, personally bearing the message that He will cause our sins to pass from us, and clothe us with His garments of righteousness.

 

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Confusion seems to reign as to the history of the doctrine of the Trinity:

*  Arius is the priest, not Arian.

*  Arius was born sometime between 250 and 256 AD.  He died in 336 AD.

* Arius served as a Bishop in Alexandria, Egypt.

*  Arius was condemned by the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

*  The Jesuit order was founded by Ignatius of Loyola, on September 27, 1540.

*  The Pope authorized the Jesuit order several years later.

*  Arius was never a Jesuit priest as he died more than 1,000 years before the Jesuit order was founded and authorized.  

 

 

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To continue

First -- Canada right now (at least in my part of Canada) is covered with a foot of fresh white snow.  We sang in church today:  "Whiter than snow" when Christ washes us we can be whiter than snow.  The whole world is white!   Frost on all the trees shining in the sunlight.  Pretty -- except a little hard to drive in -- but a good set of winter tires helps in that aspect.  And I have to shovel the stuff after sundown -- good exercise.

 

But back to "holy Ground"

THE TRANSFIGURATION

During Christ's life on earth,  having taken on humanity, the glory of His Divinity was hidden, but on the mount of transfiguration, His Divinity was revealed. Those three disciples caught a glimpse of the majesty and awesome holiness of Jesus Christ.   In the presence of His Divinity, the ground upon which He stood was "holy ground" because -- Jesus Christ is God.  He is God manifest.  And the Father declares that Christ is One with Him -- His Son.

17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 

 

It was a foretaste of what would take place in the future

Phil. 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; 
 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 

Someday everyone will confess that Christ is truly God, and bow down to worship Him.
And yes -- they are worshipping Christ.
And since God the Father and the Son are of One mind in all the plans and outworking's of the plan of redemption.  The glory given to Christ is equally given to the Father. 
 

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On ‎1‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 3:46 AM, TrevorL said:

 

As previously mentioned I believe the “us” of Genesis 1:26 is God the Father and the Angels. Psalm 8:5 Yahweh made him lower than Angels is a summary of Genesis 1:26-27, showing that Adam was made in the image and likeness of God and the Angels.

The angel's (as the word is usually understood as being the angelic hosts surrounding God's throne) cannot create life.   They are created beings.

 

But in Christ is LIFE

 

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 
 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 
 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 
 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. 

11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

 

Col  1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

All things were created by Christ and through Christ.  He was the active agent in creation. 
He is the Word, that spoke things into existence,

When God said "LET US" make man in OUR image.  It was the Father and Son, talking, not a "council of angels".   

 

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Greetings again chilco and The Wanderer,

6 hours ago, chilco said:

First -- Canada right now (at least in my part of Canada) is covered with a foot of fresh white snow.

I appreciate your three responses, but will limit my response to a few brief comments. I have only seen snow at a distance of about 25km on a mountain in the SE of Tasmania, over 57 years ago when I was 16.

 

6 hours ago, chilco said:

The problem of course lies in the fact that the word "angel"  or "messenger" can be used in different ways.
1.  The created heavenly beings that surround God's throne and are sent as messengers, guardians, and other missions to earth.

5 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

It would be correct only if the word angel is the correct interpretation for certain of the texts under consideration, which it is not.

In the context where you were quoting, in Exodus 3, I believe this is an Angel, in the first definition.

6 hours ago, chilco said:

The ground where He stood was holy!  Joshua falls down and worships Him!  
Not a word of rebuke concerning this worship comes from this Being Who has come to direct the battle.

 

There is nothing wrong with doing obeisance to a representative of Yahweh. No matter what the elevated position of the Angel with Joshua, Jesus has now been elevated and assumes this supreme role, but he is still subject under God the Father.

6 hours ago, chilco said:

You'll find the story in Zachariah chapter three.
 
In this prophecy of Zechariah we see Satan's accusing work, and the work of Christ in vindicating His people. 
The prophet says, "He showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord

An Angel?  How is the word used here?

he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. And I said, Let them set a fair miter upon his head. So they set a fair miter upon his head, and clothed him with garments."

No, created being, even those we think of as the angels surrounding God's throne, has the power to forgive our iniquity and clothe us the garments of righteousness,

This glorious messenger iis none other than Christ, and He is God,  one with God the Father.

Jesus is not shown in this incident as Yahweh. He is the antitypical Joshua the High Priest. The Angel here is revealed by Jude as Michael the Archangel, nevertheless in Zechariah 3 he bears God’s Name Yahweh, but Michael calls upon Yahweh, God the Father in heaven to rebuke Satan.

Zechariah 3:1–3 (KJV): 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? 3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

 Jude 9 (KJV): Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

6 hours ago, chilco said:

 In the presence of His Divinity, the ground upon which He stood was "holy ground" because -- Jesus Christ is God.  He is God manifest.  And the Father declares that Christ is One with Him -- His Son.

The record concerning the transfiguration states that Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son.

6 hours ago, chilco said:

It was a foretaste of what would take place in the future

Phil. 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; 
 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 

Someday everyone will confess that Christ is truly God, and bow down to worship Him.
And yes -- they are worshipping Christ.
And since God the Father and the Son are of One mind in all the plans and outworking's of the plan of redemption.  The glory given to Christ is equally given to the Father. 

No, it says that when we give obeisance to Jesus, it is to the glory of God the Father, not to the Trinity or God the Son.

6 hours ago, chilco said:

The angel's (as the word is usually understood as being the angelic hosts surrounding God's throne) cannot create life.   They are created beings.

Actually here the word used here in Genesis 1 is Elohim. The Angels do possess Power and Wisdom, but this is derived from God. My understanding of Genesis 1:1,26-27 is the One God, the Father working in and though various Mighty Ones to create the earth and man.

 

Kind regards Trevor

 

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The topic of the trinity is not new on this site, is comes up every now and then. My question has been and still is, what impact, if any, does  a correct view, what ever that may be, have on being a follower of Christ or salvation.  We have a new group discussing this so am interested is what the current view is. Not attempting to shut down the dialogue, just curious as to why it seem to be so important.

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Greetings again The Wanderer,

 

2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I did not quote anything from Exodus at this point in time.

Chilco quoted what I said when we were discussing Exodus 3 – refer below. I was trying to answer chilco and yourself at the same time, and this led to some confusion.

On ‎22‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 10:57 PM, TrevorL said:

The word Angel means messenger and the message was from God. So Exodus states “He said”, this is an Angel delivering God’s message.

I believe that the Angel of Exodus 3 was a messenger of Yahweh, and not Yahweh Himself. I certainly do not believe that this was the pre-incarnate Jesus, or the second person of the Trinity, God the Son.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

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10 hours ago, CoAspen said:

Not attempting to shut down the dialogue, just curious as to why it seem to be so important.

I personally think it is interesting to see what people use in the Bible to form their beliefs.  I think we all continue to debate the subject because we are all passionate to learn more about the nature of Him (or They) whom we worship.  I personally am not a staid Trinitarian.  But I don't truly "know" that I am right.  I may be wrong, but I don't think Trinitarians "know" that they are right, either.  Both sides "believe" they are right.  They "believe" they are right because there appears to be strong Biblical arguments for both sides; and both sides avoid the evidence for the other side.

As I've said before, none of us truly "knows"; and it won't be until when we shall know as we are known - when we no longer look through a smoky glass; but see clearly into the divine realm.  I believe we are all committed to following and worshiping God - whatever form He has.  That being the case, when we get to the Kingdom and everything is clearly explained to us, none of us will have a problem with the "facts" we learn once we get to the Kingdom.

Plus, it beats the heck out of debating WO, Jesuits, or homosexuality - for me at least.

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