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New Jerusalem Population

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B/W Photodude

I like to think that wherever the throne of God is would be the center of the universe! However, thinking you are at the center of the universe because you can't see any further is one of those tricks of the mind like little kids thinking the moon is following them when out for a drive on a moonlit nite!

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Gail

I am really enjoying this discussion- and all within the quote less parameters of this particular forum! Well done!

I try to bear in mind that God's idea of salvation might be larger than our humanly, compartmentally-based mindset. I am not a universalist by any means, but if God is FOR me as the Bible says, ME... Then that broadens my opinion a bit.

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Gail

And... Those large lakes that take the place of the oceans? I envision them full of colourful coral reefs full of swimming creatures.

I know that lakes are fresh water and reefs live in ocean. But this is the new earth! Just trying to imagine what the eye hasn't seen and the mind cannot conceive.

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Tom Wetmore

As has already been noted several times, the number 144,000 is symbolic.  It is essentially the sum of an equation of symbolic numbers - 12X12X10X10X10.  The number 12 is symbolic throughout Revelation as code for God's people, so combinations of that number are saying something about God's people in a special sense.  In this case 12X12 is also combine with 10 which means symbolically "complete".  (The multiplication in a sense could be taken as magnification or for emphasis.)  This is really ALL God's people!  All the saved. 

Now understand that in the context of the measure of the city and description of its component parts - many variations of 12! The New Jerusalem is not a description of the place where where God's people will live, but rather a symbolic (Remember Revelation is almost entirely symbolic.) description of God's own people coming down to inhabit the newly recreated New Earth.  Its not a place.  It a vast throng of people.

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B/W Photodude

I tend to think it should be 12x12x1000. 1000 occurs in the Bible connected a different meaning. "Indefinite quantity" is interesting because whatever is being discussed seems not to be tied to a specific number, just "large."

http://www.scripturerevealed.com/bible-studies/the-meaning-of-numbers-the-number-1000/

Edited by Tom Wetmore
Please be mindful this is the no quoting zone...

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Tom Wetmore

Yes. That explains it even better! There is a connected logical progression of the basic root of 10 to enhance and amplify the symbolic meaning of multiples of 10.  An OT example is the chant of the people praising David after battle in comparison to Saul - 10,000s vs 1000s.  Not real numbers of those they like personally killed but vastly more was David’s success in battle.

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Kevin H

Tom and B&W  have both made fantastic contributions here. While I like being positive, there is one thing I should point out. When it said Saul killed his thousands and David his ten thousands, the problem was that the people were seeing David as equivalent to Saul. The poem should have said "Saul killed his thousands and the son of Kish his ten thousands"  or it could have said "Saul killed his thousands and Jonathan his ten thousands" (which would have meant that the people saw Saul's family as the true royal family). Saul would have been equally upset had it said "David killed his thousands and Saul his ten thousands"  So here the thousands and ten thousands are seen as equivalent/ interchangeable. (and it uses the same principle from which we get year-day).

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JoeMo

I tend to think much of Rev. is literal.  Hence, I believe the 144,000 are a literal number - 12,000 from each of the physical and spiritual tribes of Israel remaining on the earth at the Second Coming.  The total number of the saved is innumerable.  Rev. 7 is crystal clear on this. 

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The Wanderer

It depends, I think. How do you view this text, in light of Rev 7:1-8?

IF this 144,000 is a literal number, then how do we explain verse 9 which is equally clear in saying "a multitude that no man could number?"

Edited by Tom Wetmore
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JoeMo

(Rev 7:9).

Verse 9 starts with the words "after this"; meaning after the explanation of who the 144,000 were in verses 1 through 8.  IMHO, the 144,000 are the ethnic and spiritual Israelites left on earth at the second coming.  The innumerable masses are the saved from throughout the ages. 

 

 

Edited by Tom Wetmore
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8thdaypriest

More likely a zigurat.  That would allow for "twelve foundations" - one (precious stone) foundation supporting each of the 12 levels.  As the glory of God shines through, the City would shine like a rainbow.  

I think the City may be a future portal between earth and heaven.  The lowest foundations, could be in the physical dimension, and the higher ones in the spiritual dimension. 

The earliest tower temples were zigurat.  One wonders where the Ancient Mesopotamian s got the idea.  Satan may have seen such portal temples before he was cast out from heaven.

Each gate is named for a Tribe of Israel.  An angel stands at each gate (Rev. 21:12).  Perhaps to welcome those who enter? Perhaps to guard?  But one wonders why a guard or a wall would be needed if the only people who EXIST are the Redeemed of Israel.    (All who believe are grafted in to Israel.)  

The foundations are named for the Apostles.   Strange?  It might seem that Israel was the foundation of the Kingdom.   But the Apostles WERE the foundation of Christ's church.  Christ marries the City.  He also marries His church (the citizens of the New Jerusalem). 

 

Edited by Tom Wetmore
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8thdaypriest

The New Jerusalem will cover entirely the land area promised to Abraham.   So you see the futility of the endless war for possession of "the land".   It does NOT MATTER who possesses it now - in this age.  Jesus - "the seed of Abraham" - will take possession of it soon. 

Edited by Tom Wetmore
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8thdaypriest

I believe the City will exist - literally.  It will be a meeting place for God's redeemed Israel to come up to worship Him at His "appointed times".   The LORD does say that all flesh will come up to worship Him, from one Sabbath to another, and from one New Moon to the next. 

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8thdaypriest

Through the New Testament whenever the word "sealed" is seen, it is always in the Greek aorist tense.  That tense indicates a process is ongoing, which will end in the perfect tense.  It's like saying they are sealing to be sealed.   At Rev. 7:4, the tense changes to the perfect tense.   The servants of God ARE actually "sealed".  At least 144,000 of them. 

Anciently a "seal" indicated authorship or ownership.  The seal on the foreheads of the 144,000 - to my mind, indicates possession.  They belong to Christ - legally.  

During the trumpet judgments, in Revelation 7:3, an angel tells the angels holding back the four winds, to hold a little longer until "we" have sealed the servants of our God.  One wonders whether those yet to be sealed, include only those still living at this point in time.  Makes sense - because the "scorpions of the earth" in Revelation Cpt 9, are given permission to torment only those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 

I have no problem seeing the 144,000 and the great multitude as two different groups.  It's possible the 144,000 will live through the last great time of trouble, and then be rewarded for their faith during that awful time.  The great multitude would be those resurrected when Christ appears.  It's possible.

Edited by Tom Wetmore
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phkrause
On 5/23/2018 at 12:39 AM, The Wanderer said:

I  "predict" that the "New Jerusalem" is going to be NEW.

:thumbsup:  That's one thing that is most definitely true!!

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The Wanderer
3 minutes ago, phkrause said:

:thumbsup:  That's one thing that is most definitely true!!

I think that that one little word of "new" if properly understood in the INTENDED context of said author, that it would take on a whole NEW meaning! :D

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