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New Jerusalem Population

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B/W Photodude

I like to think that wherever the throne of God is would be the center of the universe! However, thinking you are at the center of the universe because you can't see any further is one of those tricks of the mind like little kids thinking the moon is following them when out for a drive on a moonlit nite!

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Gail

I am really enjoying this discussion- and all within the quote less parameters of this particular forum! Well done!

I try to bear in mind that God's idea of salvation might be larger than our humanly, compartmentally-based mindset. I am not a universalist by any means, but if God is FOR me as the Bible says, ME... Then that broadens my opinion a bit.

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Gail

And... Those large lakes that take the place of the oceans? I envision them full of colourful coral reefs full of swimming creatures.

I know that lakes are fresh water and reefs live in ocean. But this is the new earth! Just trying to imagine what the eye hasn't seen and the mind cannot conceive.

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Tom Wetmore

As has already been noted several times, the number 144,000 is symbolic.  It is essentially the sum of an equation of symbolic numbers - 12X12X10X10X10.  The number 12 is symbolic throughout Revelation as code for God's people, so combinations of that number are saying something about God's people in a special sense.  In this case 12X12 is also combine with 10 which means symbolically "complete".  (The multiplication in a sense could be taken as magnification or for emphasis.)  This is really ALL God's people!  All the saved. 

Now understand that in the context of the measure of the city and description of its component parts - many variations of 12! The New Jerusalem is not a description of the place where where God's people will live, but rather a symbolic (Remember Revelation is almost entirely symbolic.) description of God's own people coming down to inhabit the newly recreated New Earth.  Its not a place.  It a vast throng of people.

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B/W Photodude

I tend to think it should be 12x12x1000. 1000 occurs in the Bible connected a different meaning. "Indefinite quantity" is interesting because whatever is being discussed seems not to be tied to a specific number, just "large."

http://www.scripturerevealed.com/bible-studies/the-meaning-of-numbers-the-number-1000/

Edited by Tom Wetmore
Please be mindful this is the no quoting zone...

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Tom Wetmore

Yes. That explains it even better! There is a connected logical progression of the basic root of 10 to enhance and amplify the symbolic meaning of multiples of 10.  An OT example is the chant of the people praising David after battle in comparison to Saul - 10,000s vs 1000s.  Not real numbers of those they like personally killed but vastly more was David’s success in battle.

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Kevin H

Tom and B&W  have both made fantastic contributions here. While I like being positive, there is one thing I should point out. When it said Saul killed his thousands and David his ten thousands, the problem was that the people were seeing David as equivalent to Saul. The poem should have said "Saul killed his thousands and the son of Kish his ten thousands"  or it could have said "Saul killed his thousands and Jonathan his ten thousands" (which would have meant that the people saw Saul's family as the true royal family). Saul would have been equally upset had it said "David killed his thousands and Saul his ten thousands"  So here the thousands and ten thousands are seen as equivalent/ interchangeable. (and it uses the same principle from which we get year-day).

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JoeMo

I tend to think much of Rev. is literal.  Hence, I believe the 144,000 are a literal number - 12,000 from each of the physical and spiritual tribes of Israel remaining on the earth at the Second Coming.  The total number of the saved is innumerable.  Rev. 7 is crystal clear on this. 

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JoeMo

(Rev 7:9).

Verse 9 starts with the words "after this"; meaning after the explanation of who the 144,000 were in verses 1 through 8.  IMHO, the 144,000 are the ethnic and spiritual Israelites left on earth at the second coming.  The innumerable masses are the saved from throughout the ages. 

 

 

Edited by Tom Wetmore
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8thdaypriest

More likely a zigurat.  That would allow for "twelve foundations" - one (precious stone) foundation supporting each of the 12 levels.  As the glory of God shines through, the City would shine like a rainbow.  

I think the City may be a future portal between earth and heaven.  The lowest foundations, could be in the physical dimension, and the higher ones in the spiritual dimension. 

The earliest tower temples were zigurat.  One wonders where the Ancient Mesopotamian s got the idea.  Satan may have seen such portal temples before he was cast out from heaven.

Each gate is named for a Tribe of Israel.  An angel stands at each gate (Rev. 21:12).  Perhaps to welcome those who enter? Perhaps to guard?  But one wonders why a guard or a wall would be needed if the only people who EXIST are the Redeemed of Israel.    (All who believe are grafted in to Israel.)  

The foundations are named for the Apostles.   Strange?  It might seem that Israel was the foundation of the Kingdom.   But the Apostles WERE the foundation of Christ's church.  Christ marries the City.  He also marries His church (the citizens of the New Jerusalem). 

 

Edited by Tom Wetmore
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8thdaypriest

The New Jerusalem will cover entirely the land area promised to Abraham.   So you see the futility of the endless war for possession of "the land".   It does NOT MATTER who possesses it now - in this age.  Jesus - "the seed of Abraham" - will take possession of it soon. 

Edited by Tom Wetmore
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8thdaypriest

I believe the City will exist - literally.  It will be a meeting place for God's redeemed Israel to come up to worship Him at His "appointed times".   The LORD does say that all flesh will come up to worship Him, from one Sabbath to another, and from one New Moon to the next. 

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8thdaypriest

Through the New Testament whenever the word "sealed" is seen, it is always in the Greek aorist tense.  That tense indicates a process is ongoing, which will end in the perfect tense.  It's like saying they are sealing to be sealed.   At Rev. 7:4, the tense changes to the perfect tense.   The servants of God ARE actually "sealed".  At least 144,000 of them. 

Anciently a "seal" indicated authorship or ownership.  The seal on the foreheads of the 144,000 - to my mind, indicates possession.  They belong to Christ - legally.  

During the trumpet judgments, in Revelation 7:3, an angel tells the angels holding back the four winds, to hold a little longer until "we" have sealed the servants of our God.  One wonders whether those yet to be sealed, include only those still living at this point in time.  Makes sense - because the "scorpions of the earth" in Revelation Cpt 9, are given permission to torment only those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 

I have no problem seeing the 144,000 and the great multitude as two different groups.  It's possible the 144,000 will live through the last great time of trouble, and then be rewarded for their faith during that awful time.  The great multitude would be those resurrected when Christ appears.  It's possible.

Edited by Tom Wetmore
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teresaq

Back to the original question. If we read our pioneers they understood the 144,000 to mean the ones standing at the second coming. Who will be able to stand?

Then (after)

the author saw a great multitude. The 144,000 are part of the great multitude, but are the ones who will stand through the time of trouble, which certainly appears to have started.

None of us imagined this time in our American history, or in the world in general. Everyone is being forced to make a choice, a permanent choice, as to whether we want our hearts opened to others?

 

Or permanently shut as we consider only our own needs as paramount. Helping "others" will hurt our prosperity. And we are certainly a prosperous country.

 

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Aliensanctuary

The New Jerusalem, if a cube, would be roughly 2\3 the size of Earth's moon. This city from the stars, containing many, many "mansions" will be the home for humans rescued from the destruction of Earth. Only those bearing the Mark of YHVH inscribed on their foreheads will be allowed to live in the city. The NJ is the Bride of the Lamb. In other words, it will be his residence for the rest of time.

Residents of the NJ will be assigned to one of twelve tribes. They will live in certain areas of the city and enter or exit through the gate assigned to their tribe. Their secret password on their white stone will allow them access only to certain areas. Until the Earth reaches its destination around a new sun, humans in the NJ will eat mainly manna and the food and animals they grow in the city. Likely, the old Earth is transported to another place in the universe where it will be restored to its original state as a greenhouse planet.

(The 144K are especially resurrected to create the Restored Kingdom of Israel that will rule the Earth for 1K years with an iron rod, that is, no rebellion will be permitted during it's rule.)

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R. G. White

Based on everything I've seen, the 144,000 do appear to be a literal number. However, according to Revelation 7, the resurrected saints are so many that they cannot be counted! Then there is an innumerable company of angels.

I understand that the city itself covers an area roughly the size of the State of Oregon, and we don't spend all of our time in the city. Heaven is a real place. The new earth will be very real. But how God works out the details is of little concern to me. I trust Him to know what He's doing.

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JoeMo
1 hour ago, R. G. White said:

Based on everything I've seen, the 144,000 do appear to be a literal number. However, according to Revelation 7, the resurrected saints are so many that they cannot be counted!

144,000 is the number of Israelites raptured (or translated in SDA-speak) - 12,000 from each tribe.  The innumerable multitude are the saved Gentiles.  Just my opinion.

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R. G. White
Just now, JoeMo said:

144,000 is the number of Israelites raptured (or translated in SDA-speak) - 12,000 from each tribe.  The innumerable multitude are the saved Gentiles.  Just my opinion.

Thank you. My understanding is that the church invisible is the "Israel of God."

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JoeMo
2 minutes ago, R. G. White said:

Thank you. My understanding is that the church invisible is the "Israel of God."

Scripture says that Israel was, is, and will eternally be the Chosen people of God.  God made an unconditional promise to Abraham; and He will not break it.  To do so would dishonor His holy name.  Christianity did not replace Israel as the chosen people, they only augmented it.  Read Romans 9 - 11 and see what Paul has to say about Israel.  Us non-Jewish believers were grafted in; and the non-believing natural branches were cut out.  Paul goes on to say that if God cut out the natural branches; how much more likely will He remove the grafted branches.  Israel is God's chosen people; and the gentiles who are grafted in are spiritual Israel.

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R. G. White
2 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Scripture says that Israel was, is, and will eternally be the Chosen people of God.  God made an unconditional promise to Abraham; and He will not break it.  To do so would dishonor His holy name.  Christianity did not replace Israel as the chosen people, they only augmented it.  Read Romans 9 - 11 and see what Paul has to say about Israel.  Us non-Jewish believers were grafted in; and the non-believing natural branches were cut out.  Paul goes on to say that if God cut out the natural branches; how much more likely will He remove the grafted branches.  Israel is God's chosen people; and the gentiles who are grafted in are spiritual Israel.

Yes, I believe you are referring to the teachings of Paul. These can be a bit involved, and reasonable people can certainly disagree as to his intent. As I understand Paul, he is saying that God's acceptance of people as children of Abraham was never based on the flesh, but only the spiritual descendants of Abraham were ever accepted by God. That said, Paul does represent the Jews as the natural branches, and Gentile Christians as wild olive branches grafted in. The reason he gives for this is to prevent us from boasting that we are better than the Jews. He wants us to respect the fact that Christianity is actually true Judaism, so that will we love the Jews, not hate them.

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Aliensanctuary

Being quite large, approximately 2\3 the size of the moon, the New Jerusalem will not likely land on the Earth, only rendezvous with it in order to pick up those who will be rescued from a dying Earth.

The NJ is a self-sustaining city from the stars, destined to be the home of humans who will be employed serving YHVH. There will be gardens and crops and fields used to feed its human occupants, supplemented by the same manna consumed by the people of Israel in the days of Moses.

A river will flow from the "throne" of YHVH, the River of Life, and along its banks is the Tree of Life, needed by the humans to remain healthy, forever.

Perhaps the mission ends when the city arrives at a new world suitable for human habitation traveling around a distant sun.

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JoeMo

A/S,

You have a very imaginative and creative mind, which appears to be heavily influenced by "Ancient Aliens" on the History Channel.  I also enjoy the program; but I also really enjoyed "X-Files" and "Twilight Zone" too - as entertainment.  I have also read a lot of Stephen Hawking and his theories on the feasibility of extraterrestrial beings from another star system or galaxy visiting earth.  In our 4-dimensional universe, Hawking presents a quite convincing argument that that such a feat would be impossible given the known laws of physics. However, it could be possible that another dimension - invisible to our 4-dimensional sensory system - "overlays" our 4-dimensional universe. That would be the spiritual realm.

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