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Gregory Matthews

The Investigative Judgment

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Gregory Matthews

A new 330 page book has been published on the Investigative Judgment.  see:

https://atoday.org/new-book-reviews-debate-on-investigative-judgment-doctrine-since-glacier-view/

Quote

A new book looks carefully at the scholarship and discussion on the traditional Adventist teaching of an investigative judgment in heaven beginning in 1844. The author, Roy Ingram, is a loyal Seventh-day Adventist who believes that God raised up the Adventist movement to take the everlasting gospel to all the world.

The book summarizes the seven volumes that have been published by the denomination’s Daniel and Revelation Committee since the Glacier View council in 1980. It concludes that (1) only a small number of the papers dealt with the central issue; (2) the findings are based largely on assumptions; and (3) the topic was treated as though it was established from the Bible. “Let the reader decide whether or not this doctrine is biblically confirmed,” the author concludes.

The 1844 Investigative Judgment: Fact or Assumption by Roy Ingram is 330 pages published by Amazon.com. It is available in paperback and as an eBook.

and From Amazon:

 

 
Roy Ingram shows how Seventh-day Adventist scholars no longer teach what Ellen White wrote on the 1844 investigative judgment. They have changed her ideas—borrowed from pioneers Uriah Smith and J. N. Andrews—into a much more hopeful message. They now use the idea of a positive pre-advent judgment to replace the denomination's traditional teaching. The problem is that Adventist ministers cannot admit this has happened, or they run the risk of being dismissed.

 

 

 

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Gregory Matthews

Note:  In the above post, you may have to click on the icon in the 2nd quote in order to read it.

 

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The Wanderer
Just now, Gregory Matthews said:
Quote
Roy Ingram shows how Seventh-day Adventist scholars no longer teach what Ellen White wrote on the 1844 investigative judgment. They have changed her ideas—borrowed from pioneers Uriah Smith and J. N. Andrews—into a much more hopeful message. They now use the idea of a positive pre-advent judgment to replace the denomination's traditional teaching. The problem is that Adventist ministers cannot admit this has happened, or they run the risk of being dismissed.

 

Those are very good books that the committee published. I will look forward to getting this latest volume and investigate the investigative. The "more positive message" is not really new though Thats the one I have personally been using for approximately 15 years now. A pastor sat down with me way back when and studied this out with me. Its interesting to note that that pastor is no longer an employee of the church

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The Wanderer

Gregory, do you perchance know how one could get a copy of this latest volume?

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Gustave

Is this Doctrine promulgated today with the same velocity it was, say, 50 to 100 years ago? 

I admittedly know little of this aspect of SDA history but have wondered if Investigation Judgement is now following the same trajectory the Personality of God took, i.e. moving from a prominent position to literally a forgotten one. 

 

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The Wanderer
7 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Thank you! I just bought it for my Kindle for only $10.00 Canadian!

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The Wanderer
56 minutes ago, Gustave said:

Is this Doctrine promulgated today with the same velocity it was, say, 50 to 100 years ago? 

I admittedly know little of this aspect of SDA history but have wondered if Investigation Judgement is now following the same trajectory the Personality of God took, i.e. moving from a prominent position to literally a forgotten one.

This sounds a bit cryptic my friend. Is your question a comment, or a question?

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Gustave
1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

This sounds a bit cryptic my friend. Is your question a comment, or a question?

A Question.

I understand that there were questions about that specific teaching back in the early 80's and since then many books have been written on the subject.

Just now there is another book on the subject.

My question is - is that teaching (one all those books were written about) given the same stage space (attention) today in SDA churches as it was prior to 1980? 

The reason I said what I did about the Personality of God Doctrine was because there was a tremendous amount written about it up until Ellen White died, then it tapered off to the point I found a few people in the same periodicals complaining that "no one wanted to talk about the Personality of God" any longer.

If we're to believe the surface summary of the book Gregory alerted us to once would conclude that the SDA Church has thrown it's most educated and best scholars at the question and they unanimously concluded the doctrine was mostly based off assumptions.

 

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JoeMo
15 hours ago, Gustave said:

they unanimously concluded the doctrine was mostly based off assumptions

... and the pioneers' and traditional SDA's faith in the writings and visions (perhaps improperly interpreted?) of their prophet Ellen White without sound Biblical evidence.

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B/W Photodude

I am in a personal study of the Sanctuary Service and have quite a stack of books to read thru, and have read thru about half of those planned on being "consumed". However, I have put off EGW until last, not because I do not believe, but the sanctuary books "written" by EGW are compilations by others. Therefore, it will be necessary to find the source of these compilation quotes to see the context.

Along the way, it has become apparent that the sanctuary service given to Israel in the desert was a parable of redemption. And like the parables of Jesus while on earth the different parts of the parable have meaning. I am of the opinion that God is a God of order and does not waste symbols or have people engaging in useless ceremonies that have no spiritual meaning. Consequently, many theologians and other spiritually gifted writers that I have read have ably demonstrated the presence of the Investigative Judgement in Scripture. So, I have no problem with believing in an Investigative Judgement. I do have my concerns regarding those who deny things like the cleansing of the Sanctuary, EGW, and many other pillars of the Adventist faith. 

Like Jesus asked when He was on earth, "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8 Sadly, I see Scriptural truths being denied all the time. And even the visions of EGW being denied. I find this verse to be very sobering for the times we live in. "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." 2 Timothy 3:7

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Gustave
6 hours ago, JoeMo said:

... and the pioneers' and traditional SDA's faith in the writings and visions (perhaps improperly interpreted?) of their prophet Ellen White without sound Biblical evidence.

That goes without saying as Ellen never came up with anything novel - she simply confirmed what the Pioneers had said / believed. 

"It is the teaching of the investigative judgment that makes Seventh day Adventists a distinct people. Immediately after the passing of the time in 1844, rays of light in regard to the sanctuary began Ito illuminate the hearts of the faithful ones, but 0. R. L. Crosier was the first to write • out an exposition of the sanctuary question. In regard to his position, Sister White wrote, " The Lord showed me in vision, more than a year ago, that Brother Crosier had the true light on the cleansing of the sanctuary." Crosier's article, " A Word to the Little Flock," was published in the Day-star Extra, Feb. 7, 1846, p. 12. Sister White's vision of " The End of the 2300 Days," given in " Early Writings," and other visions fully explained the subject of the sanctuary". Review & Sabbath Herald September 5, 1918

Brother Crosier, prior to his death, said that he wrote that article referenced above "to prove the Shut door teaching" .

Below is Crosier explaining it.

I did not "originate their present sanctuary view." The facts in the case are—William Miller deserves the credit for shut-doorism among the Advent people; and he got the idea from some of the most learned commentators of the "orthodox" churches. I am not aware that either he or they built it upon the sanctuary service. They inferred it chiefly from passages in the New Testament. Mr. Miller expressed his opinion that the door of mercy would be closed in 1838. When "the 10th day of the 7th month" time passed in the fall of 1844, he and others (with few exceptions,) who were interested in that midnight cry, as they called it, believed that the door of mercy was then shut,—that no more sinners would or could be converted. That opinion prevailed in 1845 and 1846. In the latter year I published in an Extra of The Day Star, a paper published by Enoch Jacobs, at Cincinnati, an exposition of the Sanctuary and its Service in the law of Moses, to explain how and why the door of mercy was shut. On account of our ignorance of the Scriptures my argument was more fully and more widely accepted than it deserved to be. In the next three years ('47-49) I saw and published its defects as to the shut door. They were:

  1. There is no proof that the processes of repentance and pardon were suspended on the Day of Atonement.
  2. "His mercy endureth forever." It is presumption to limit God's mercy. The bar does not come from God's side, but from man's side.
  3. Jesus never refused pardon to anyone repenting and asking for it.
  4. There is Scripture proof that there will be pardon and salvation under the reign of Christ—for the left of the nations, after the second coming. This, chiefly , brought me out of the shut-door.
  5. Out of it, we can see that the shut-door conception is crude, gross, narrow, puerile.

You ask, "Did you hold to the shut-door theory, that salvation was past, and that there was no more pardon for sinners?" I did.

"And did . . . the author of the visions, and those who believed them, adopt these views?" They did; and were among the first to declare them and the most persistent in retaining and publishing them; and what is more, they must still hold those views, because they still adhere to my sanctuary exposition, which was written to prove the shut-door. They even make (or did make a few years ago,) a foolish excuse for the conversions that have occurred since the fall of 1844, viz., that the names of those millions of converts were borne into the holy of holies on the breastplate of the high priest on the 10th day of the 7th month in that year—most of them yet unborn! There was no hint of any such thing in the type. The first shut-door believers put the issue on higher and more obvious ground, viz., that the Lord would very soon come—was actually on his way, some said,—and the world would be immediately destroyed. But as he did not come, and as conversions could not be prevented, nor denied even under the labors of shut-door believers, the names of future converts on the breastplate was a Yankee invention to suit the emergency. But, in the type, the names of the twelve tribes—not the names of all faithful individuals —were on the breastplate.

In the love of the truth, in the blessed hope, and in the precious work of the gospel,

Your brother,

O. R. L. CROZIER.

 

So, it's true that Ellen White didn't make the doctrines of the SDA Church, the Pioneers made the doctrines and Ellen "confirmed the doctrines" by saying she was shown by the Lord that Crosier, James White, etc. , etc. , etc. was right. 

 

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JoeMo
13 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Along the way, it has become apparent that the sanctuary service given to Israel in the desert was a parable of redemption.

You're right - it is apparent to us with our 20/20 hindsight.  Do you honestly think that even fervent Israelites back then would experience the sanctuary service and think "this is a symbol of our coming Redeemer who will shed His blood for us and atone for all our sins."?  Do you really think that, at the daily sacrifice, people would thing "this represents or coming Redeemer, who will shed His blood for us."?  I don't.  The vast majority of Israelites (and later, the Jews) were looking for a kingly Messiah; not a suffering Messiah.  They also believed that the service itself is what bought them forgiveness from sin - not that it was a symbol of Christ's forgiveness.

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phkrause
5 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

You're right - it is apparent to us with our 20/20 hindsight.  Do you honestly think that even fervent Israelites back then would experience the sanctuary service and think "this is a symbol of our coming Redeemer who will shed His blood for us and atone for all our sins."?  Do you really think that, at the daily sacrifice, people would thing "this represents or coming Redeemer, who will shed His blood for us."?  I don't.  The vast majority of Israelites (and later, the Jews) were looking for a kingly Messiah; not a suffering Messiah.

I agree JoeMo 100%. Not one of my Jewish relatives cared or understood this!! Not sure if its because they wont read the NT?? What I've noticed is the Jews that actually read the NT seem to be able to see Jesus as the Messiah, obviously not all but many. Even Muslims have come around when aloud to read the Bible for themselves!!

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The Wanderer
17 hours ago, Gustave said:

That goes without saying as Ellen never came up with anything novel - she simply confirmed what the Pioneers had said / believed. 

"It is the teaching of the investigative judgment that makes Seventh day Adventists a distinct people. Immediately after the passing of the time in 1844, rays of light in regard to the sanctuary began Ito illuminate the hearts of the faithful ones, but 0. R. L. Crosier was the first to write • out an exposition of the sanctuary question. In regard to his position, Sister White wrote, " The Lord showed me in vision, more than a year ago, that Brother Crosier had the true light on the cleansing of the sanctuary." Crosier's article, " A Word to the Little Flock," was published in the Day-star Extra, Feb. 7, 1846, p. 12. Sister White's vision of " The End of the 2300 Days," given in " Early Writings," and other visions fully explained the subject of the sanctuary". Review & Sabbath Herald September 5, 1918

Brother Crosier, prior to his death, said that he wrote that article referenced above "to prove the Shut door teaching" .

Gustave, you keep trying to "prove" that EGW was responsible for establishing church doctrine, digging up one obscure quote after the next, and trying to relate it to "official doctrine." This quote, while making several implications comes no where close to proving what you are trying to claim.

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The Wanderer
17 hours ago, Gustave said:

So, it's true that Ellen White didn't make the doctrines of the SDA Church, the Pioneers made the doctrines and Ellen "confirmed the doctrines" by saying she was shown by the Lord that Crosier, James White, etc. , etc. , etc. was right. 

When did the Doctrine of the Investigative Judgment Originate? DARCOM writer Mervyn Maxwell acknowledges: “Contrary to popular opinion Ellen G. White did not originate the sanctuary doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists. Her most detailed and mature writings on the subject did not appear until the 1880s” (1989, 5:119). The Term First Appeared in Print in 1857 The term “investigative judgment” first appeared in print in a letter to the Review by an Adventist pastor, called Elon Everts, over twelve years after the 1844 “great disappointment” (dated 1 January 1857). Four weeks later James White, following Everts’ lead, wrote: “That the investigative judgment of the saints, dead and living, takes place prior to the second coming of Christ, seems evident from the testimony of Peter (1 Pet 4:5-7). Sins are not blotted out at forgiveness, but at the “great day of atonement… at the time of the cleansing of the Sanctuary (Acts 3:19-21)” (Jan. 29, 1857, p. 100).

Ingram, Roy. The 1844 Investigative Judgment: Fact or Assumption? (Kindle Locations 1313-1316). Kindle Edition.


By saying the comment re Crozier, EGW was not taking part in any process or method involving change of or addition to the church's official doctrines at that time. That was NEVER the goal of anything she ever wrote.

 

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8thdaypriest

RE: SHUT DOOR

 EGW:     “Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far.  The light behind them went out leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below.  It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected.  They fell all the way along the path one after another, until we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming. (From Ellen White’s first vision received in December 1844. Published as “To the Remnant Scatter Abroad,” in “A Word to the Little Flock, May 30, 1847, p.14.)

Sounds like probation HAD closed for those who denied the 1844 message, and the "shut door" message.

    In February of 1845 Mrs. White received another vision confirming the closed door.  She speaks of this vision in a letter to Joseph Bates, written in 1848.  The vision took place while she was in a meeting with believers who had not accepted the doctrine of the shut door.  Because of the vision given to her at that moment, the group - including a woman teacher who had been very opposed - accepted the shut door doctrine. The following is a passage from the letter written by Mrs. White to Joseph Bates.

 EGW:     “The view about the Bridegroom’s coming I had about the middle of February, 1845, while in Exeter, Maine, in meeting with Israel Dammon, James, and many others.  Many of them did not believe in the shut door.  I suffered much at the commencement of the meeting.  Unbelief seemed to be on every hand.  There was one sister there that was called very spiritual.  She traveled and [had] been a powerful preacher the most of the time for twenty years. She had been truly a mother in Israel.  But a division had risen in the band on the shut door.  She had great sympathy, and could not believe the door was shut.  I had known nothing of their difference.” . . .  “At length my soul seemed to be in an agony, and while she was talking I fell from my chair to the floor. It was then I had a view of Jesus rising from His mediatorial throne and going to the holiest, the Bridegroom to receive His kingdom.  They all said it was entirely new to them.  The Lord worked in mighty power, setting the truth home to their hearts."  . . . Sister Durben knew what the power of the Lord was, for she had felt it many times; and a short time after I fell she was struck down, and fell to the floor, crying to God to have mercy on her.  When I came out of vision, my ears were saluted with Sister Durben’s singing and shouting with a loud voice.   Most of them received the vision, and were settled upon the shut door. Previous to this I had no light on the coming of the Bridegroom, but had expected Him to come to this earth to deliver His people on the tenth day of the seventh month.  I did not hear a lecture or a word in any way relating to the Bridegroom’s going to the Holiest.”
Manuscript Releases Volume Five pg.97 - “Three Early Letters”

    The reason for the explanation given in the last paragraph was a paper, published by Mr. Joseph Turner, which taught exactly the “truth” given to Ellen White in her vision, that the door of probation had closed when Christ entered the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary.  This paper was published before Ellen White’s “vision.”  A copy of the paper was in Ellen White’s house, but she claimed never to have read it, prior to her own vision.  (A.L.White, “Ellen G. White and the Shut Door Question,” Letter 3, 1847, pp. 49-51. Printed in Ford, “Daniel 8:14,” pp.417-419.)

 EGW:     “With my brethren and sisters, after the time passed in forty-four I did believe no more sinners would be converted.  But I never had a vision that no more sinners would be converted. And am clear and free to state no one has ever heard me say or has read from my pen statements which will justify them in the charges they have made against me upon this point.”  Selected Messages Book 1, p. 74, (Written in 1874.)

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8thdaypriest

    Anciently, on the Day of Atonement, when the High Priest  entered the Most Holy Place with the blood of the Lord’s goat, probation closed for the individual Israelite (who understood the requirement).  All know sins were to be confessed and the required sin offering sacrificed prior to this moment.

For seven years after the 1844 disappointment Mrs. White did - in fact - teach that probation had closed.  This would fit the type.  Only after the children of shut door believers, began to reach the "age of accountability" (7yrs), did "the door" begin to slowly open. 

Probation of course, had not yet closed, and has not yet closed.    Why?  Because the High Priest has not yet entered the Most Holy Place for the final Day of Atonement ceremony.  Events on earth will tell us when that moment is near. 

This will be the moment when DOMINION over this earth is taken from Satan and is given to "the Son of Man" (Daniel 7). 

Adventism teaches that Christ ENTERED the Most Holy Place on October 22nd, 1844.   [Therefore probation should have closed - as symbolized on the TYPE.]  But probation has NOT yet closed.  My conclusion would be that Christ did NOT ENTER on that date in 1844. 

Adventism teaches that Christ is STILL IN the Most Holy Place - investigating. 

Christ said, "I KNOW MY SHEEP." (John 10:14)    What then needs investigation?  

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8thdaypriest

Did pioneer Adventists get the EVENT wrong - Christ entering the judgment hall of Heaven for the final events typified in the Day of Atonement ceremony of the wilderness Tabernacle?

Or did they get the TIME wrong - October 22nd, 1844?  

I believe they got the TIME wrong.  October 22, 1844 was NOT the end of the 2300 evening/mornings, of Daniel 8:14.  

PS:  The word translated as "cleansed" - "then the sanctuary shall be cleansed" - is the word most often translated as "justified".   "Then the Sanctuary shall be justified."  

And the word translated as "atonement" - means "reconciliation".  The Day of Atonement is the Day of Reconciliation.   

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B/W Photodude
11 hours ago, JoeMo said:

You're right - it is apparent to us with our 20/20 hindsight. 

Do you honestly think that even fervent Israelites back then would experience the sanctuary service and think "this is a symbol of our coming Redeemer who will shed His blood for us and atone for all our sins."? 

The vast majority of Israelites (and later, the Jews) were looking for a kingly Messiah; not a suffering Messiah.

I do not think you are correct in thinking that the idea of the sanctuary is a product of 20/20 hindsight. Throughout all of history God has been trying to make people see the plan of redemption. I do not believe that nobody in those days had figured out the meaning of the sanctuary and it's services. How could Moses spend 40 days in the cloud with God and not get it? And if he did, would he not have told the people the meaning? The people had asked that God no longer speak directly to them and for Moses to speak for God. So, I do believe that some understood. Many others also seem to have gotten it.

A very interesting statement Jesus would make and is in the OT is "He that have ears, let him hear." Unfortunately, even today the vast majority of SDAs also do not get it. I sometimes wonder if I even understand and study and study to see. Unfortunately, even the majority of SDAs will not be saved. At the time of the 1st Advent, the majority of the people did not understand what was going on, even though they studied scripture. I suspect that even at the 2nd Advent, many will not know what is happening. This will make Peter very correct when he discussed the thief in the night.

When one of the gifts to the church from God, the service of EGW, is put-down, ridiculed, or just discarded, that is a serious problem.

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The Wanderer
8 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

When one of the gifts to the church from God, the service of EGW, is put-down, ridiculed, or just discarded, that is a serious problem.

Its really amazing how many people come out of the wood work and start quoting her writings when it suits their purposes.

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B/W Photodude
16 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Its really amazing how many people come out of the wood work and start quoting her writings when it suits their purposes.

People use and abuse EGW from both directions. One side puts her down. The other side elevates her above God. I know someone once who when read a bible verse on something remarked, "Yeah, but what does EGW say?!" I do not believe I have quoted her much at all here. (Can't remember any!)

But I do like reading her writings. In 2016, I read thru the whole Conflict of the Ages series. One of the things on my "bucket list" is the entire Testamonies series, however, many other books are waiting for my attention. Thoughts from the Mount of Blessings is an amazing book along with Christ Object Lessons, and Steps to Christ. I have a reading list goal of 52 books this year on Goodreads.com. ( I am behind! ) In addition to my sanctuary studies, I am now reading in the area of animal theology. 

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The Wanderer
15 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

I do not believe I have quoted her much at all here. (Can't remember any!)

I definitely was not referring to you. :)

15 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

I am now reading in the area of animal theology. 

What are you waiting for?  You need to start a thread on this!! Sounds interesting!! :)

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The Wanderer
17 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

But I do like reading her writings.

You sound similar to me in this respect. Where I see a problem, and quite consitsently at that, is when someone who normally does not use her writings starts coming out with isolated quotes and trying to make them yea or nea as to what she does or does not teach, and even worse, when they try to take one of said quotes, and make it to look like thats what Adventists "really believe" or "really do not believe."

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JoeMo
1 hour ago, B/W Photodude said:

Throughout all of history God has been trying to make people see the plan of redemption. I do not believe that nobody in those days had figured out the meaning of the sanctuary and it's services.

I will submit to you that no one - even the angels and demons; not even the apostles, Romans, or Jews - understood the impact Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection would have on creation.

"No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.  None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (1 Cor. 2:7-8)

Why would satan have orchestrated Jesus, crucifixion and death if he knew it would seal his doom?  Why was the plan of redemption a mystery?  Because at the time it was only known by the Father and the Son.  Jesus probably broke the news to the fallen angels when He descended to the underworld after His death.

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