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Gregory Matthews

The Investigative Judgment

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Gustave
11 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

The fact that God could accurately predict the outcome of the mission of Jesus to this earth in no way diminishes His capability of making a wrong choice and committing a sin. I would also suggest He had to come to all these decision moments much the same way any fallen human would except He did have the relationship with His Father that He carefully maintained all His life.

If you carefully study His life, you will see the key to becoming like Him. Previous failures does not mean that fallen humans cannot reach the place of no longer sinning. I think people confuse what they have done with what God can make of them if given over to His watchcare. Jesus and His apostles were not setting a bar impossibly high in telling us to "be perfect like our Father in heaven is perfect" and similar statements.

A similar failed idea comes from John 3:16, when Jesus noted He came to save the world. That hasn't happened.

That WASN'T a prediction - it WAS predestination for those who WOULD accept it. 

Isa 14, 24: The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
 
Isa 46,9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
 
Romans 8,28 : And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

G4309: Of God decreeing from Eternity / Decide BEFOREHAND 
 
Eph 1,4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

G4309: Of God decreeing from Eternity / Decide BEFOREHAND

The next few would be good to each read a couple times.

Psalm 33,11: But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through ALL generations

Proverbs 19,21: Many are the plans in a person’s heart, BUT it is the LORD’s purpose that prevails

Isaiah 14,24: The LORD Almighty has sworn, “Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, AND as I have purposed, so it will happen

Ephesians 1,9: he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he PURPOSED in Christ

Ephesians 1,10: to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out EVERYTHING in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory

2 Timothy 1,8: Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the GOSPEL according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, WHICH WAS GIVEN US in Christ Jesus BEFORE the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

Here is Jesus' understanding of the matter - followed by your Arian caveat 

John 6,50: This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world [ IF I DON"T SIN AND LOOSE MY SALVATION! ]

IMHO you've missed the great truth of the Gospel in that we already have been saved by Christ before the earth was even created - it was NEVER a matter of "IF" we would be saved & by WHO we would be saved, it was ONLY a matter of WHEN. 

 

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The Wanderer
6 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Jesus did take our sins upon Himself. He died for them. In the desert sanctuary, the sins of the people were were carried into the sanctuary and kept there until the Day of Atonement. Then the sins of those who repented and had brought them too the sanctuary with the appropriate sacrifice had them transferred to the goat sent into the wilderness. In the greater scheme of the meanings, God took our sins and now must dispose of them. He must cleanse Himself, as the sanctuary*, of our sins

In other words, according to what you have written, Jesus lied when He said "It is finished?"

There is nowhere in scripture that Jesus HAS to follow every iota that we see in the OT Sanctuary. Thats not even the purpose of it; it was all looking forward to the crucifixion, after which the OT forms and rituals are not needed. If the cross wasn't enough, then why does the Bible say: "

Quote

Micah 7:18-20 King James Version (KJV)18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.20 Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old.

It doesnt sound like Jesus has to fiddle around in the sanctuary to get rid of our sins. Once His shed blood is accepted, we are covered. No more OT sanctuary hooplahs needed.

IMHO the fires of doctrinal decadence has been ruining the sanctuary doctrine:
 

Quote

 

They have cast fire into thy sanctuary, they have defiled by casting down the dwelling place of thy name to the ground.(Psalms 74:7)

A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle. (Prov 18:19)

 

 

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8thdaypriest

Is man conscious after death - before resurrection - either in torment, or in Heaven? 

Could Jesus Christ have sinned?

Did God choose the redeemed beforehand, and exclude those not predestined?

Did Jesus preach to "spirits in prison" between His physical death, and His resurrection in His new "spiritual body" ? 

We could run a whole thread on just one of these topics. 

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The Wanderer
35 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Is man conscious after death - before resurrection - either in torment, or in Heaven? 

Could Jesus Christ have sinned?

Did God choose the redeemed beforehand, and exclude those not predestined?

Did Jesus preach to "spirits in prison" between His physical death, and His resurrection in His new "spiritual body" ? 

We could run a whole thread on just one of these topics. 

we could...but...

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8thdaypriest

THE BODY

2 Corinthians 5:1 "For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." (NKJ)

THREE different states of being are addressed in the passage. 

1) "in the body" - "earthly house" - "this tent"

2) "unclothed" - "naked"

3) "a building from God, a house not made with hands" - "clothed with our habitation from heaven" - "clothed"

1 Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

Paul does not mind the idea that his "earthly body" will be destroyed.   He looks forward with great desire to being "further clothed" with his new "house" (or "tent") that is eternal.  In the new "house" Paul will someday be "present with the LORD".  He will no longer be present in His "earthly house". 

But what state is described by "naked" - or without a body, "tent", or "house" of any type?   Is this not death?  

    Romans 8:22,23 “. . . even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.”

        NOTE:  If we are NOT fully adopted into the family of God until "the redemption of our bodies", then we are not adopted as disembodied spirits immediately at death.  The dead do not receive bodies, until the return of Christ, when He will call the dead forth (1Thess 4:16). 

NO BODY - NO LIFE

        Genesis 5:24  Enoch’s body was never found after he was translated to heaven without seeing death (Heb. 11:5).

2 Kings 2:11,16-17   Elijah went up in a fiery chariot to heaven.  The empty shell of his body didn’t fall back to earth.  

        Elijah was TYPE (a living symbol) of those who will be living to see Christ come - who will be translated without seeing death.  (Their bodies will be “changed”- not shed.)

1 Corinthians 15:51 " For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we [the living] shall be changed."

        Moses was a TYPE of those who will be resurrected when Christ returns. (They will receive new spiritual bodies.)  On the Mount of Transfiguration Christ stood with Moses and Elijah (Mark 9:2-4). This was a miniature representation of His coming kingdom - all who would be saved by His coming sacrificial death - some resurrected, and others translated without seeing death.

    Jude 9  Michael contended with Satan for the body of Moses.

        If Moses (as a spirit) had already gone to Heaven, why this conflict over possession of the His corpse?  The Son of God wanted to resurrect Moses, and to take him to Heaven.  Satan wanted Moses to stay dead.  At this point in time, no person had ever been resurrected from the dead.  

Romans 5:14  “. . . death reigned from Adam to Moses.”

Something involving the reign of death - changed with Moses.      

 

 

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8thdaypriest

DID CHRIST PREACH TO SOULS IN HELL, between His death and His resurrection ?

    1 Peter 3:18-20  “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.”

 First:  Christ was “made alive” by the Spirit of God His Father (Rom. 8:11, Gal. 1:1). 

Second:  By this same Spirit - of God His Father -  He (the Son of God) once preached to those who were disobedient in the days of Noah.  The preaching was done in the "days of Noah".

Third:  Peter is making the point that the Spirit who resurrected Christ is THE SAME SPIRIT by Whom He once preached in the days of Noah.  

Fourth:  He (Christ) preached through Noah.  Christ testified through all of the Old Testament prophets (1Peter 1:11).  He did not preach to them directly - in person.  His spirit was "in" the prophets. 

Fifth:  The preaching was done back “in the days of Noah.”

Compare 1 Peter 4:6: “The gospel was preached (past tense) to those who are dead” (present tense).  It was preached to them in the past, while they were still alive.
    
 Sixth:   The word “Hell” is NOT in this passage.    The people of Noah’s day were called “spirits in prison” because their minds or hearts (pneuma) were in bondage to Satan and sin. (Compare Ps. 142:7;  Isa. 42:6,7;  Isa. 61:1;  Lk 4:18).

1Peter 3:18-20 can be interpreted in more than one way, depending on the interpreter's presuppositions.  It is therefore NOT a proof text. 

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8thdaypriest
3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

In other words, according to what you have written, Jesus lied when He said "It is finished?"

There is nowhere in scripture that Jesus HAS to follow every iota that we see in the OT Sanctuary. Thats not even the purpose of it; it was all looking forward to the crucifixion, after which the OT forms and rituals are not needed. If the cross wasn't enough, then why does the Bible say: " 

WHAT WAS "FINISHED" when Jesus died?  

Yes - His fight against Satan - waged as a human being - was finished.  He won.  He won the right to "save" anyone who would come to the Father in His name. 

But did His death - at that moment - render me "saved"?  I wasn't even born yet. 

Upon His death, Christ WON the right to save.  He did not literally, actually "save" all human beings.   To "save" human beings, He needed to be raised, and to baptize His followers with the Holy Spirit, to direct them, to empower them - to continue the war against the forces of evil. 

The war with Satan was NOT FINISHED.  The contest for human beings - was not over - when Christ died on the cross.  He did NOT "save" every human being.  There was still a long battle ahead, to bring the news of His victory to the human race, and to bring those who would "hear" to belief and surrender.  

The Spring Feasts depict in symbol the death of Christ (as the Passover Lamb) and His victorious presentation as "the Firstfruit".  

The Summer Feast - Pentecost, depicts the harvest to follow His return to the Father's right hand.

The Fall Feasts - Day of Atonement and Tabernacles - depict the final events of this "age" - the rendering of sentence and the execution of sentence upon Satan and his, and then the Harvest celebration for Christ and His.

I do believe that many who served the LORD faithfully during the Old Testament period, were resurrected by Christ, just after He was himself raised.   These people He took with Him to Heaven, to serve as witnesses and elders.  Yes.  Those people were (actually, literally, past tense) "saved" by Christ, when He raised them and gave them eternal life. 

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The Wanderer
18 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

WHAT WAS "FINISHED" when Jesus died?  

Yes - His fight against Satan - waged as a human being - was finished.  He won.  He won the right to "save" anyone who would come to the Father in His name. 

But did His death - at that moment - render me "saved"?  I wasn't even born yet. 

What could JESUS possibly have "finished" if HE still needs a quick cleanse Himself somewhere in the alleged line of prophecy where WE tell Him that He must?

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8thdaypriest
11 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

What could JESUS possibly have "finished" if HE still needs a quick cleanse Himself somewhere in the alleged line of prophecy where WE tell Him that He must?

His personal battle with Satan - as a man - was "finished". 

"Still needs a quick cleanse" - what are you talking about? 

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The Wanderer
22 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

His personal battle with Satan - as a man - was "finished". 

"Still needs a quick cleanse" - what are you talking about? 

its been said a number of times now in this and other topics that Jesus needs cleansing. ergo the OT sanctuary protocols. IF that was the case; then it is NOT finished

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The Wanderer
4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

WHAT WAS "FINISHED" when Jesus died?  

Yes - His fight against Satan - waged as a human being - was finished.  He won.  He won the right to "save" anyone who would come to the Father in His name. 

But did His death - at that moment - render me "saved"?  I wasn't even born yet. 

Upon His death, Christ WON the right to save.  He did not literally, actually "save" all human beings.   To "save" human beings, He needed to be raised, and to baptize His followers with the Holy Spirit, to direct them, to empower them - to continue the war against the forces of evil. 

The war with Satan was NOT FINISHED.  The contest for human beings - was not over - when Christ died on the cross.  He did NOT "save" every human being.  There was still a long battle ahead, to bring the news of His victory to the human race, and to bring those who would "hear" to belief and surrender.  

The Spring Feasts depict in symbol the death of Christ (as the Passover Lamb) and His victorious presentation as "the Firstfruit".  

The Summer Feast - Pentecost, depicts the harvest to follow His return to the Father's right hand.

The Fall Feasts - Day of Atonement and Tabernacles - depict the final events of this "age" - the rendering of sentence and the execution of sentence upon Satan and his, and then the Harvest celebration for Christ and His.

I do believe that many who served the LORD faithfully during the Old Testament period, were resurrected by Christ, just after He was himself raised.   These people He took with Him to Heaven, to serve as witnesses and elders.  Yes.  Those people were (actually, literally, past tense) "saved" by Christ, when He raised them and gave them eternal life. 

THIS makes me very confused about God, who and what He is. To me; I read this, and it makes me think that my salvation simply depends on ME and the steps I "must" take, and then bossing Jesus around, and telling HIM the steps we feel He must take. I think thats why the Apostle said
 

Quote

 

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Galatians 6:12
As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

Galatians 6:14
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world

 

We must gather about the cross. Christ and him crucified must be the theme of contemplation, of conversation, and of our most joyful emotion. We should have special praise services for the purpose of keeping fresh in our thoughts everything that we receive from God, and of expressing our gratitude for his great love, and our willingness to trust everything to the Hand that was nailed to the cross for us. In these meetings we should learn to talk the language of Canaan, to sing the songs of Zion. By the mystery and glory of the cross we can estimate the value of man, and then we shall see and feel the importance of working for our fellow men, that they may be exalted to the throne of God. Mrs. E. G. White (Southern Watchman, March 7th, 1905)

Edited by The Wanderer

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The Wanderer

We are in this world to lift the cross of Calvary. As we lift this cross, we shall find that it lifts us. Let every Christian stand in his lot and place, catching the inspiration of the work that Christ did for souls while in this world. We need the ardor of the Christian hero, who can endure the seeing of him that is invisible. Our faith is to have a resurrection. The soldiers of the cross are to exert a positive influence for good. Christ says, “He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.” Indifference in the Christian life is a manifest denial of Christ. (R * H, Nov 26 1903) (see Gal 6:14)

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8thdaypriest
22 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

its been said a number of times now in this and other topics that Jesus needs cleansing. ergo the OT sanctuary protocols. IF that was the case; then it is NOT finished

The "sin offering" (regardless of the animal used) represented Jesus. 

The blood of the "sin offering" was the cleansing agentThe lamb wasn't dirty, and did not "need cleansing". 

The Lamb was innocent.  That is why it represented Christ. 

The sinner needed - desired - "atonement" (reconciliation) - with God.  The blood of the Lamb, presented by the priest - effected that reconciliation. 

The priest also represented Jesus.  The priest would "make atonement" for the repentant sinner by pouring some blood from the sacrifice at the base of the Alter of Sacrifice, or on special occasions by sprinkling the blood before "the veil" inside the Tabernacle - the veil that separated the two apartments.  The priests also ate some of the sin offering.  By taking that offering into themselves, and then entering the Tabernacle, they carried the record of that sacrifice.  Jesus - as High Priest, carries the record of His sacrifice.  The scars are still visible. 

It is "the Sanctuary" that needs "cleansing".   Daniel 8:14 - "then shall the Sanctuary be cleansed".  

The blood of the Lamb, presented by the High Priest, cleanses the Sanctuary. 

How could Heaven (the true Tabernacle) need "cleansing" ?   What got dirty? 

Answer:  God's reputation.  Satan sullied it, with His lies that God is responsible for the sin and therefore He is responsible for the pain that His creation suffers.  God allowed sin to exist, and has allowed sin to continue on earth - for some 6000 years.  The immense, piled up record of sin and pain must be reconciled with the claim that God is just - and merciful. 

The word translated as "cleansed" in Daniel 8:14, is

06663 qd;c' tsadaq {tsaw-dak'}
Meaning:  1) to be just, be righteous 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to have a just cause, be in the right 1a2) to be justified 1a3) to be just (of God) 1a4) to be just, be righteous (in conduct and character) 1b) (Niphal) to be put or made right, be justified 1c) (Piel) justify, make to appear righteous, make someone righteous 1d) (Hiphil) 1d1) to do or bring justice (in administering law) 1d2) to declare righteous, justify 1d3) to justify, vindicate the cause of

When the Sanctuary is "cleansed" - the cause of God and God Himself, is declared "just" and "righteous" and "in the right".  His actions - throughout the history of His creation, are declared just and righteous.  God is vindicated!   This happens - NOT because God declares Himself righteous.  It happens because created beings, acting as judges,  declare Him just and righteous, based upon the evidence

"The judgment" which "cleanses" the Sanctuary (Heaven itself) - is NOT ABOUT US.   It is about God.  We are evidence - His treatment of us that is. 

I realize that most folks cannot understand the idea that God could be accused of wrong.  I think the strongest evidence that this was indeed the case, is the rebellion of Satan.  Satan didn't like the way God was governing His creation.  Why else would He have rebelled?  He thought that he could run things better.   His Creator had to give him time to demonstrate that this was NOT the case - that his way would end in chaos and tragedy. 

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8thdaypriest

What was "finished"? 

I believe that Jesus proved to the universe of created beings, that God is love, and is just. 

Jesus prayed, "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify You." (John 17:1)  "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. (John 17:4) 

Jesus "work" was to glorify His Father.  He "finished" THAT WORK! 

Human beings who "saw" the character of the Father in Christ, were reconciled to God.   They became "one" with the Father - in heart. 

The final "cleansing of the Sanctuary" could have taken place right then.   All the "evidence" needed - was there.   Satan had proved himself a liar and a murderer.  God had proved Himself infinitely loving, forgiving, and patient.  

But God held off.  He delayed the full and final execution of justice.  Why? 

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

If God had executed justice 2000 years ago, I would not exist.  I'm glad He waited, so that I could be in His kingdom.  I imagine Him saying, "Just a little longer.  We can win a few more."

I personally believe that He will wait until the world is completely consumed by wickedness, to the point, that He can win no one else.  Every witness for the truth will be dead or in solitary confinement.  Every means of communication will be controlled by the "Little Horn" power.  

I realize the delay has been very costly, in terms of death and suffering.  Only as we experience the healing of Christ in the Kingdom to come, will we fully agree that the wait was worth it

 

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8thdaypriest
20 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

THIS makes me very confused about God, who and what He is. To me; I read this, and it makes me think that my salvation simply depends on ME and the steps I "must" take, and then bossing Jesus around, and telling HIM the steps we feel He must take. I think thats why the Apostle said

I'm so sorry, if what I have posted caused you to feel this way.  I do NOT feel that my salvation depends on me.  I know that Jesus wants me, and His Father wants me - enough to die for me - enough to feel all the pain of every created being who has suffered because of sin.  The ONLY thing that I must do - is CONSENT to be indwelt by Christ my Savior.  

Before I can CONSENT, I must believe that my Creator exists, and that He is good.   The life and death of Christ gives evidence to convince me.  History, archeology, creation science, miracles - all give me evidence, so that I can come to belief and consent.  All these things were and are provided by HIM.   

Once I consent - the job then becomes HIS.  "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; (Phi 1:6 NKJ).  That's a promise!

There are times when I feel so weak, the only prayer I can speak is, "Hang on to me Jesus."   I believe that He will. 

The word "judgment" is a very scary word.   It makes us feel vulnerable.  It shouldn't.  Not if we belong to Jesus.  

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B/W Photodude
On June 30, 2018 at 4:23 PM, The Wanderer said:

In other words, according to what you have written, Jesus lied when He said "It is finished?"

There is nowhere in scripture that Jesus HAS to follow every iota that we see in the OT Sanctuary. Thats not even the purpose of it; it was all looking forward to the crucifixion, after which the OT forms and rituals are not needed. If the cross wasn't enough, then why does the Bible say: "

It doesnt sound like Jesus has to fiddle around in the sanctuary to get rid of our sins. Once His shed blood is accepted, we are covered. No more OT sanctuary hooplahs needed.

Since Jesus said He is the Truth,  why would I even suggest that He lied? So, if He didn't lie and is the truth, then perhaps the real story of the plan of redemption is not understood. Jesus did allude numerous times that people would not understand and spoke in parables, the sanctuary service is indeed a parable of the act of redemption, and then perhaps the parable is not being understood by many.

If it indeed was all finished on the cross, 2000 years ago, why are we still here on this earth enduring what we are enduring? I would suggest that "It is finished" was not referring to the whole plan of salvation and there was much more to be accomplished in the millenias to come. I think sometimes the cross is really misunderstood and definitely misapplied in the whole process of redemption. Given the fallen human heart of selfishness, we even think that redemption is all about us! We are only a small part of this whole plan of redemption and God was not only saving us, but He was saving His entire universe!

I get that Scripture nowhere says that Jesus has to follow every iota of the sanctuary service, but that does not mean that he would not. EVERY part of the sanctuary service had meaning and in the earthly sanctuary every part was symbolic of that meaning. I tend to believe God is a god of order and does not waste symbols as to do so would only confuse those seeking Truth. And of course, being a God of Truth to have parts of the sanctuary service that have no meaning mixed with things that have meaning only leads to confusion.

I think I can assure you, Jesus is not "fiddling around" in the sanctuary. This is eternal life and death stuff going on and no one takes it more seriously than God does.

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hch
On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 12:28 PM, Gustave said:

1. Scripture IS true

God said "man" would die - man is a combination of biological matter PLUS the soul that God infuses into each person - at the death of the body the soul ( which Scripture says is personalized ) is separated from the body. "For just as the body WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, so also faith without works is dead". In any event Adam and Eve did not physically die within the day they ate of the forbidden tree SO you can conclude the death was separation of man from his God - and that clearly happened. 

2. Satan twists things - you need to re-read Genesis. 

Satan implied to Eve that God said they weren't to eat of ANY TREE in the garden - Eve added to God's commandment by claiming God said if they even touched it they would die. Did God say that hch? Satan poured a new and different meaning into what God said - You appear to be perpetuating Satan's meaning. 

3. Jesus publically 3 well known errors of the Sadducees.

The Bible says the Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection of the body, didn't believe in angels & didn't believe that man had a spirit that continued after death. Jesus answered all three of the Sadducees errors affirming to them in front of everyone that they were WRONG. This correction must have been important OTHERWISE Jesus would NOT have answered questions the Sadducees didn't ask. 

4. Satan will appear to be the living Pope John-Paul II!

Now that's a new one! LOL! I don't even know how to respond to that. But again, you believe the Bible allows for a peccable creature Christ so anything to include Satan masquerading as Pope John Paul 2nd is possible.

I'll prayerfully commit you to the Holy Spirit as well - I do appreciate your being so honest and up front in what you believe.  

 

 

Gustave, I had a great reply that vanished when I hit the submit button. Here goes a shorter rewrite:

1) "For just as the body WITHOUT THE BREATH IS DEAD, so also faith without works is dead". {spirit and breath are the same word] "the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Genesis 2:7)  Gustave wrote: In any event Adam and Eve did not physically die within the day they ate of the forbidden tree SO you can conclude the death was separation of man from his God - and that clearly happened." Do you have evidence that Adam or Eve lived to be older than 1000 years? It is written "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8). God did not lie. They died in the day that they ate of the tree.

2) God told Adam. Adam probably expanded the instruction when he repeated it to Eve. Don't eat it...no don't even touch it.

3)  I dealt with this in an earlier post. nothing has changed.

4) A deep study of Revelation 17 in conjunction with EGW comments on Satan personating Christ is the source for that comment.

It is apparent that we do not read the Scriptures from the same perspective. One day soon, we will discover who is following the text most closely and who is influenced by tradition. But in the meantime God is offering His Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. If we will follow, he will guide...

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stinsonmarri
On 7/10/2018 at 2:11 PM, hch said:

 

Gustave, I had a great reply that vanished when I hit the submit button. Here goes a shorter rewrite:

1) "For just as the body WITHOUT THE BREATH IS DEAD, so also faith without works is dead". {spirit and breath are the same word] "the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Genesis 2:7)  Gustave wrote: In any event Adam and Eve did not physically die within the day they ate of the forbidden tree SO you can conclude the death was separation of man from his God - and that clearly happened." Do you have evidence that Adam or Eve lived to be older than 1000 years? It is written "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8). God did not lie. They died in the day that they ate of the tree.

2) God told Adam. Adam probably expanded the instruction when he repeated it to Eve. Don't eat it...no don't even touch it.

3)  I dealt with this in an earlier post. nothing has changed.

4) A deep study of Revelation 17 in conjunction with EGW comments on Satan personating Christ is the source for that comment.

It is apparent that we do not read the Scriptures from the same perspective. One day soon, we will discover who is following the text most closely and who is influenced by tradition. But in the meantime God is offering His Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. If we will follow, he will guide...

It never ceases to amaze me that men have this illusion that the male species is over the female. There are no Scriptures that states that the Male Adam told the female Adam what THE ALMIGHTY said. She heard it just like him directly from THE ALMIGHTY herself and she just lied, simple.

 And ELOHIYM said, Let us make man in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. ELOHIYM created man in HIS OWN IMAGE, in the IMAGE of ELOHIYM created he him; male and female created HE them. And ELOHIYM blessed them, and ELOHIYM said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen 1:26-28 HRB

 This is the book of the generations of Adam in the day that ELOHIYM created mankind, He made in THE LIKENESS of ELOHIYM.  Male and female created HE them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. Gen 5:1-2  HRB

Adam: that is, a human being. Strong Hebrew Dictionary

When will men give women the equal respect in all things as THE CREATOR stated. When the woman sin, as a wife she became subject to her husband in certain things. That was not the caste all the time in the Bible. However, it showed male dominance but YAHSHUA used both male and female as disciples and later in Acts they were apostles. We need realize that both will be priest/king as the 144,000 to finish the work. How many knows that EGW was anointed as a minister and she was a woman!

The Bible never said that Satan would pretend to be YAHSHUA. EGW also said she was fallible and THE ALMIGHTY is INFALLIBLE. She also said when we see an error do not hold on to it. She did not see this in a vision, she thought this as many during of the pioneer felt. They made a mistake.

Blessings!

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hch
On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 9:52 PM, stinsonmarri said:

The Bible never said that Satan would pretend to be YAHSHUA. EGW also said she was fallible and THE ALMIGHTY is INFALLIBLE. She also said when we see an error do not hold on to it. She did not see this in a vision, she thought this as many during of the pioneer felt. They made a mistake.

Blessings!

As the coming of Christ nears the light contained in God's word grows brighter and clearer until the perfect day.

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LifeHiscost
On 7/11/2018 at 6:52 PM, stinsonmarri said:

I

The Bible never said that Satan would pretend to be YAHSHUA. EGW also said she was fallible and THE ALMIGHTY is INFALLIBLE. She also said when we see an error do not hold on to it. She did not see this in a vision, she thought this as many during of the pioneer felt. They made a mistake.

Blessings!

Why would this warning be given if there were not that probability?

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24

 

God is Love!~Jesus Saves! :happysabbath:

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JoeMo
On 7/11/2018 at 7:52 PM, stinsonmarri said:

The Bible never said that Satan would pretend to be YAHSHUA. EGW also said she was fallible and THE ALMIGHTY is INFALLIBLE. She also said when we see an error do not hold on to it. She did not see this in a vision, she thought this as many during of the pioneer felt. They made a mistake.

 

👍

 

On 7/10/2018 at 12:11 PM, hch said:

God told Adam. Adam probably expanded the instruction when he repeated it to Eve. Don't eat it...no don't even touch it.

The Bible says nothing about Adam telling Eve not to touch the fruit. Eve said that God said that in Gen. 3:3. She expanded on God's command.

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stinsonmarri
3 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

Why would this warning be given if there were not that probability?

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24

 

God is Love!~Jesus Saves! :happysabbath:

Because the Bible never said Satan.

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is THE MESSIAH, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false MESSIAHS, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat 24:23, 24 

I know that today people are calling some men the above, but they are false. Where do you read anywhere here that this is Satan? The Bible does not do probabilities, it provides facts. It clearly says not to add or subtract from the Word. So you cannot think or say something that it did not say!

Happy Sabbath and blessings!

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LifeHiscost
1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

Because the Bible never said Satan.

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is THE MESSIAH, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false MESSIAHS, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat 24:23, 24 

I know that today people are calling some men the above, but they are false. Where do you read anywhere here that this is Satan? The Bible does not do probabilities, it provides facts. It clearly says not to add or subtract from the Word. So you cannot think or say something that it did not say!

Happy Sabbath and blessings!

Much as it was Satan who used false reasoning to convince Eve that surely God wouldn't withhold the fruit that would make her and her companion as like gods, so I don't have to see the  written evidence  that smoking or drinking a worthwhile pleasure, to know it is reasoning from satan.

 

Who are you to judge the servant of another? Before his own master he stands [approved] or falls [out of favor]. And he [who serves the Master—the Lord] will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One person regards one day as better [or more important] than another, while another regards every day [the same as any other]. Let everyone be fully convinced (assured, satisfied) in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord. He who eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains for the Lord and gives thanks to God. Romans 14

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves!:D  :offtobed:

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stinsonmarri
14 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

Much as it was Satan who used false reasoning to convince Eve that surely God wouldn't withhold the fruit that would make her and her companion as like gods, so I don't have to see the  written evidence  that smoking or drinking a worthwhile pleasure, to know it is reasoning from satan.

 

Who are you to judge the servant of another? Before his own master he stands [approved] or falls [out of favor]. And he [who serves the Master—the Lord] will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One person regards one day as better [or more important] than another, while another regards every day [the same as any other]. Let everyone be fully convinced (assured, satisfied) in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord. He who eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains for the Lord and gives thanks to God. Romans 14

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves!:D  :offtobed:

The Bible clearly says it was Satan using the serpent and I don't think Satan is plural or more than one. The serpent was created by ELOHIYM and that is clear! The Bible call his helpers demons. The problem I see is you are confusing the work of Satan as him and is not the same thing. He work using men and I know it was Satan who appear as an angel of light. Paul said marvel not Satan can appear as an angel not YAHSHUA!

None of the Scriptures you provided makes any claim to Satan appearing as YAHSHUA! Again an assumption is a theory and not base on facts. The Bible deals with facts and it means what it says and says what it means. I go alone with facts and evidence and not men's assumptions!

Happy Sabbath and be bless! 

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