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B/W Photodude

Downsides of Theological Discussions

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B/W Photodude

I find it sometimes difficult to follow some of the "logic trails" of some posts here of different authors where any belief in EGW has been discarded, the Holy Spirit has been discarded, even parts of the Bible that conflict with some privately held beliefs are discarded with the assumption that "someone added them later." And who knows what the IJ is all about as the word doesn't even appear in the Bible?!  😜 It just seems so much confusion. I just find that the gift of prophecy as given thru EGW has been a blessing and was promised to the end time church. And many other theologians who followed along afterwards such as Andreasen, Douglas, and contemporary writers such as Clifford Goldstein have also been incredible to me in putting together a "coordinated" view of end time events with the caveat that there is much more to come.

I have one friend who knows his Bible very well and we have great conversations, but don't mention anyone else and EGW only in limited amounts. All well and good, but then why do I even listen to him?! Books just happen to be a great way for those who are no longer with us to continue sharing their ideas and findings with those who come after. Every believer does not have to reinvent the wheel in trying to understand Bible prophecy. 

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JoeMo
On 6/10/2018 at 8:45 PM, B/W Photodude said:

I find it sometimes difficult to follow some of the "logic trails" of some posts here of different authors where any belief in EGW has been discarded, the Holy Spirit has been discarded, even parts of the Bible that conflict with some privately held beliefs are discarded with the assumption that "someone added them later."

I am likely one of the individuals you are talking about.  I don't totally "disregard EGW; I just question her when I can't find anything in scripture to back up what she says.  I don't disregard the Holy Spirit; I just question the "personhood" of the HS.  The Holy Spirit is as real to me as the Father and Son; it's just not a Person (IMHO).  Just because an author is not an Adventist does not make him/her wrong or a heretic.

Sometimes I have a difficult time following your logic.

If everyone here thought exactly the same way everyone else thought there would be no discussion except unanimous "likes".

As rudywoofs says, "when the choir sings in unison, there is no harmony".

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phkrause
2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I just question her when I can't find anything in scripture to back up what she says.

I have a problem with this statement!! The reason I say that, is this, when I was growing up all I heard was EGW said this, or that, etc., etc.!! I couldn't even read her books, because it read like the KJV of the Bible!! Than I read the GC, awesome book is all I can say. I love History, World History even more. So I started reading some other books of hers, still a little difficult but I did get through them. Than a thought started coming into my head, what if one of the reasons God called her was to help fill in/help understand hard and difficult areas/passages in the Bible?? Just a few thoughts from this peanut gallery!! :rollingsmile:

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thx4mercy
16 hours ago, phkrause said:

I have a problem with this statement!! ......... a thought started coming into my head, what if one of the reasons God called her was to help fill in/help understand hard and difficult areas/passages in the Bible??

 

I agree with your thought.  Also, I find it difficult to think that God would give us an end-time prophet that He has inspired, and that He would expect us to read a book by her and know that some of what we read is from God and which parts are not inspired from Him.

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phkrause
On 6/13/2018 at 12:49 PM, thx4mercy said:

I agree with your thought.  Also, I find it difficult to think that God would give us an end-time prophet that He has inspired, and that He would expect us to read a book by her and know that some of what we read is from God and which parts are not inspired from Him.

Exactly

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hch
On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 12:49 PM, thx4mercy said:

 

I agree with your thought.  Also, I find it difficult to think that God would give us an end-time prophet that He has inspired, and that He would expect us to read a book by her and know that some of what we read is from God and which parts are not inspired from Him.

If we look at Bible writers, for example, they all had this problem. We know Moses was sent of God, but some folks were ready to stone him at times. Paul said that that he had an opinion regarding some things that were not God given (inspired), but since he had the Holy Spirit, he was confident that his views were worthy of consideration.

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Gregory Matthews

The central issue here is:  What was the purpose for which God gave us the ministry of EGW?

I do not agree with those who may say that God gave EGW to us to help us to understand the Bible.   That, as I understand it, is in direct conflict what what she said about her relationship to the Bible.  She clearly taught that the Bible had authority over her writings.   IF there was a conflict in understanding, the Bible was to rule.

Rather, I see the mission and ministry of EGW of EGW to be that of guiding us in our development as a denomination.  We would not be what we are today, a denomination of some 20,000,000 adult members, if it had not been for her ministry.  She is a gift from god to us..  But, she was not given to us to supplant the Bible.

Certainly she, as a spiritual leader, wrote  much that was devotional.  But, those wr4iting are to be judged by the Bible, and if in conflict, the Bible is to rule.

 

 

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rudywoofs (Pam)

I thought EGW herself referred to her writings as the "lesser light".... not the "guiding light"

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hch
15 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

I thought EGW herself referred to her writings as the "lesser light".... not the "guiding light"

You are absolutely right. 

When we study the Bible and then go to EGW for clarity, we will find it.

IMHO Those who go to EGW and then the Bible find confusion.

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Gregory Matthews

HCH:  Perhaps the real issue is that we should and can go to the Bible and find clarity.

 

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hch
2 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

HCH:  Perhaps the real issue is that we should and can go to the Bible and find clarity.

Gregory, If only God's people would do that (we would at last be in one accord).

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hch

There are the examples in God's word that we would do well to heed.

Jeremiah and Paul come to mind. God's messengers with God's message, but rejected and abused by God's professed people.

So why does God allow the abusers (who profess to love Him) to abuse their brethren who also love Him?

In Ellen's situation, it might be compared to white washing her tomb as Christ said that the people in His day did to the prophets that lived in the past?

The answer is in Scripture: Mt 13:30 "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

Christ's solution is truly wise because the laborers would have a tough time distinguishing between the two before they were ripe. 

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Gregory Matthews

HCH, your position has been taken by a   variety of people who would like to post here.  We allow people who differ with us personally and also who may differ with SDA teachings to post hers.  But, in my understanding, God does expect us to make decisions and to draw boundaries as to what is posted here.  Those decision may apply to both content and to the people who wish to post here

I am thinking of a person who would like to post here, and that person is NOT you.  That person has publicly posted that SDA leaders are serving Satan.  I am not going to identify that person.  But, I well tell you that I believe that very strict boundaries should be applied to that person if that person were to post in this forum.

NOTE:  In the interests of transparency.  The above person has attempted to post here.  That person has not been banned from posting in this forum. But, that person has been advised of the boundaries within which that person will be required to operate.  In addition, all posts made by that person have been removed from view.  That person has responded to the information we have given.  At this point in time, no further posts are known to have been made in this forum by that person.

There are simply some things that  require us as good stewards of God to place boundaries and  restrictions on some who post here.  We can do nothing less and we will continue to do so.

In addition, this forum is a private forum.  It is supported by funds that are provided by some who post here.   Others do not contribute and are allowed to post.   As such, there is no reason that people should be expected to post here anything that they wish to post.  Some have attempted to post pornographic material in  this forum.  Others, have attempted to solicit for their business interests.  Others have attempted to solicit funds, sometimes for good causes and sometimes for questionable causes.  We do not have to allow that and we do not.

The freedom that this country has includes someone who does not like the restrictions that we place on people here, having the freedom to establish their own website and post whatever they want on that website.

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The Wanderer
4 hours ago, hch said:

When we study the Bible and then go to EGW for clarity, we will find it.

I think this is wrong; it is the opposite of what was just said above. The scriptures may be thought of as adding clarity to her writings, however.

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The Wanderer
2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

There are simply some things that  require us as good stewards of God to place boundaries and  restrictions on some who post here.  We can do nothing less and we will continue to do so.

I agree, I have never liked it when this was done with me a few times. BUT I do agree with every incident in terms of the guidelines laid down. It sometimes happens to the best of us, we have bad hair days and we post inappropriately. I see nothing wrong, in principle with forum admin doing this. Legal requirements at times as they change need to have certain guidelines imposed. In addition to freedom of speech, there is also responsibility of speech.

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The Wanderer
On 6/12/2018 at 5:50 PM, phkrause said:

the reasons God called her was to help fill in/help understand hard and difficult areas/passages in the Bible??

Sometimes this does happen too. She has several places where she talks about "the new commandment of love..." and when I was a new Christian, I had read some of those and was blessed to gain a better understanding of said Bible passages. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as we are not saying her writings are the final word on The Word.

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hch
4 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I think this is wrong; it is the opposite of what was just said above. The scriptures may be thought of as adding clarity to her writings, however.

If you are right then Ellen White must be wrong...

Quote

 I do not ask you to take my words. Lay Sister White to one side. Do not quote my works again as long as you live until you can obey the Bible. When you make the Bible your food, your meat and your drink, when you make its principles the elements of your character, you will know better how to receive counsel from God. I exalt the precious word before you today. Do not repeat what I have said, saying, "Sister White said this," and, "Sister White said that." Find out what the Lord God of Israel says, and then do what He commands.--Ms 43, 1901, p. 10. (E. G. White talk in college library, April 1, 1901.)  {5MR 141.1}

 

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hch

In case anyone is still confused (the Bible should be studied first and then turn to Ellen White for clarification), she also wrote:

Quote

Often we remained together until late at night, and sometimes through the entire night, praying for light and studying the Word. Again and again these brethren came together to study the Bible, in order that they might know its meaning, and be prepared to teach it with power. When they came to the point in their study where they said, "We can do nothing more," the Spirit of the Lord would come upon me, I would be taken off in vision, and a clear explanation of the passages we had been studying would be given me, with instruction as to how we were to labor and teach effectively. Thus light was given that helped us to understand the scriptures in regard to Christ, His mission, and His priesthood. A line of truth extending from that time to the time when we shall enter the city of God, was made plain to me, and I gave to others the instruction that the Lord had given me.  {1SM 206.4} 

 

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The Wanderer
3 minutes ago, hch said:

If you are right then Ellen White must be wrong...

 

Your quotes are completely out of context and used in a way that other portions of her writings strongly condemn. You stated above that after reading scripture...we can "go to Ellen White for clarity."  It is not correct to state such a thing at all. Ellen white is not the churchs interpreter of scripture. Her writing, while containing the "lesser light" are never for the purpose of "interpreting scripture."  Scripture interprets scripture and Ellen Whites writings may compliment a passage of scripture but not interpret

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hch
1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

Your quotes are completely out of context and used in a way that other portions of her writings strongly condemn. You stated above that after reading scripture...we can "go to Ellen White for clarity."  It is not correct to state such a thing at all. Ellen white is not the churchs interpreter of scripture. Her writing, while containing the "lesser light" are never for the purpose of "interpreting scripture."  Scripture interprets scripture and Ellen Whites writings may compliment a passage of scripture but not interpret

People sometimes explain away what they do not want to believe.

The two quotes that I posted above  on this topic speak for themselves. [They are not isolated cherry picked statements...EGW says the same thing elsewhere in her writings.]

If you believe the opposite position, then present EGW quotes that sustain your position.

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The Wanderer
1 minute ago, hch said:

People sometimes explain away what they do not want to believe.

The two quotes that I posted above  on this topic speak for themselves. [They are not isolated cherry picked statements...EGW says the same thing elsewhere in her writings.]

If you believe the opposite position, then present EGW quotes that sustain your position.

After I questioned your statement above that said after we read the Bible "we go to Ellen white for clarification" then you dug up those quotes without responding to the original question  Thats not only a good example of walking around in circles it also shows out of context use of her writings. We do not need to go to Ellen white to understand anything in the Bible, because the Bible explains itself and yet here you are, using EGW materials to prove what the Bible "must mean or say."

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hch

Here is our portion of the conversation as it has developed.

10 hours ago, hch said:

When we study the Bible and then go to EGW for clarity, we will find it.

IMHO Those who go to EGW and then the Bible find confusion.

 

6 hours ago, The Wanderer said:
10 hours ago, hch said:

When we study the Bible and then go to EGW for clarity, we will find it.

I think this is wrong; it is the opposite of what was just said above. The scriptures may be thought of as adding clarity to her writings, however.

I clearly responded to your concern by giving comments that EGW made exalting the BIBLE.

1 hour ago, hch said:
6 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I think this is wrong; it is the opposite of what was just said above. The scriptures may be thought of as adding clarity to her writings, however.

If you are right then Ellen White must be wrong...

Quote

 I do not ask you to take my words. Lay Sister White to one side. Do not quote my works again as long as you live until you can obey the Bible. When you make the Bible your food, your meat and your drink, when you make its principles the elements of your character, you will know better how to receive counsel from God. I exalt the precious word before you today. Do not repeat what I have said, saying, "Sister White said this," and, "Sister White said that." Find out what the Lord God of Israel says, and then do what He commands.--Ms 43, 1901, p. 10. (E. G. White talk in college library, April 1, 1901.)  {5MR 141.1} 

 

56 minutes ago, hch said:

In case anyone is still confused (the Bible should be studied first and then turn to Ellen White for clarification), she also wrote:

Quote

Often we remained together until late at night, and sometimes through the entire night, praying for light and studying the Word. Again and again these brethren came together to study the Bible, in order that they might know its meaning, and be prepared to teach it with power. When they came to the point in their study where they said, "We can do nothing more," the Spirit of the Lord would come upon me, I would be taken off in vision, and a clear explanation of the passages we had been studying would be given me, with instruction as to how we were to labor and teach effectively. Thus light was given that helped us to understand the scriptures in regard to Christ, His mission, and His priesthood. A line of truth extending from that time to the time when we shall enter the city of God, was made plain to me, and I gave to others the instruction that the Lord had given me.  {1SM 206.4} 

 

56 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:
1 hour ago, hch said:

If you are right then Ellen White must be wrong...

Your quotes are completely out of context and used in a way that other portions of her writings strongly condemn. You stated above that after reading scripture...we can "go to Ellen White for clarity."  It is not correct to state such a thing at all. Ellen white is not the churches interpreter of scripture. Her writing, while containing the "lesser light" are never for the purpose of "interpreting scripture."  Scripture interprets scripture and Ellen Whites writings may compliment a passage of scripture but not interpret

 

47 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:
53 minutes ago, hch said:

People sometimes explain away what they do not want to believe.

The two quotes that I posted above  on this topic speak for themselves. [They are not isolated cherry picked statements...EGW says the same thing elsewhere in her writings.]

If you believe the opposite position, then present EGW quotes that sustain your position.

After I questioned your statement above that said after we read the Bible "we go to Ellen white for clarification" then you dug up those quotes without responding to the original question  Thats not only a good example of walking around in circles it also shows out of context use of her writings. We do not need to go to Ellen white to understand anything in the Bible, because the Bible explains itself and yet here you are, using EGW materials to prove what the Bible "must mean or say."

Wanderer,

you questioned my understanding that EGW as the lessor light explained Scripture to the church "I think this is wrong; it is the opposite of what was just said above. The scriptures may be thought of as adding clarity to her writings, however."

My response was to give you 2 quotes from EGW upon which I based my understanding. 

Your response is "Your quotes are completely out of context and used in a way that other portions of her writings strongly condemn. You stated above that after reading scripture...we can "go to Ellen White for clarity."  It is not correct to state such a thing at all. Ellen white is not the churches interpreter of scripture. Her writing, while containing the "lesser light" are never for the purpose of "interpreting scripture."  Scripture interprets scripture and Ellen Whites writings may compliment a passage of scripture but not interpret"

Your defense is to  accuse me of manipulating EGW to make her say something that she did not say. I replied If you believe the opposite position, then present EGW quotes that sustain your position.

But rather than to give anything from EGW to sustain you position you reply...After I questioned your statement above that said after we read the Bible "we go to Ellen white for clarification" then you dug up those quotes without responding to the original question  Thats not only a good example of walking around in circles it also shows out of context use of her writings. We do not need to go to Ellen white to understand anything in the Bible, because the Bible explains itself and yet here you are, using EGW materials to prove what the Bible "must mean or say."

I offered you the opportunity to make your case and to use EGW if you want. So is your reply righteous indignation because you can't find anything in EGW's writings to back up what you believe? If I missed responding to the original question...what was that question that I failed to see?  

I presented evidence from EGW to show how she worked as the lesser light. If you don't agree with the evidence, give some to present a better picture of her work.

 

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The Wanderer

Hch the problem has nothing to do with what I may or may not be able to find in EGW writings because I am not looking in her writings for anything. You did make the statement that after reading scripture we can "go to Ellen White for clarification."   That statement is still wrong even after your great posting event above where apparently all you are interested in is quoting her writings to make an adhominem argument. The original statement about reading scripture then "going to Ellen White for clarification" is even more wrong now and it just gets worse the more you quote from her writings on this point.

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