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hch

When will Iran attack our (US) fleet?

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B/W Photodude
5 hours ago, hch said:

 It time to concern ourselves with salvation issues.

Agreed. Too much time is spent trying to parse out every nuance of Bible prophecy, especially when the tendency is to fit it to current and even regional events.

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B/W Photodude
On 1/8/2019 at 11:18 PM, B/W Photodude said:

Elder Kauble.—I read in the Testimonies that we ought not to teach new doctrines until after counseling with the leading brethren. The question comes, Are we to take our own individual judgment as to what is light?

4 hours ago, hch said:

On the surface this sounds like  great counsel. Unfortunately, in my experience, when I repeatedly tried to put it in practice, most of my fellow believers that I encountered were not interested in studying.

You forgot the "operative" word in the quote by Elder Kauble. He stated counsel with the "leading" brethren. I am not sure if your local interested (or not) study partners qualify. For a very significant new finding, the pattern of Glacier View with Desmond Ford shows a practice more in line with the impressions from the Testimonies.

So, this is what I suggest for you. You have been wrong on prophecy before, so maybe "prophecy" is not your spiritual gift. Perhaps you might go back to the "drawing board" and discover just what your spiritual gift might be. I believe everyone is given spiritual gifts and I believe the Bible and SOP supports the idea that everyone has a gift. There are many resources out there that can assist you is this endeavor. 

https://youth.adventist.org/Resources/Spiritual-Gifts-Assessment

https://www.adventist.org/en/beliefs/church/spiritual-gifts-and-ministries/

4 hours ago, hch said:

My favorite Author states that God has called every SDA to be a watchmen.

The question then becomes, what are we supposed to be watching for as we walk along the walls? The latest little military skirmish begins to pale a bit when you consider the entire scope of the end time events.

FWIW, I find what is going on in American politics to be much more significant even if the details are not covered in Bible prophecy. Many feel the church is about to fall, but others feel the American government is about to fall at times into a socialist state. I do not anticipate that either will occur. To be sure there are many in both scenarios who are very self centered and are looking out for number one and that number one is not Jesus.

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hch
On ‎1‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 1:30 PM, B/W Photodude said:

Agreed. Too much time is spent trying to parse out every nuance of Bible prophecy, especially when the tendency is to fit it to current and even regional events.

There is an old adage that the devil is in the details. And another point that my favorite author makes is that Satan's work is all the better for him if he can work unseen behind the scenes.

As King Cyrus was revealed by name by Isaiah 175 years before he reigned, about 600 years before Christ, Daniel stated that Michael shall stand for his people. Searching prophecy a little deeper with the intent to have the correct understanding at the correct time indicates to me that "Michael" has a dual meaning. 1) Michael (a counterfeit) that is opposed to Christ will stand for his apostate people, and 2) Michael, who is Christ, will stand for His people. 

The only way to know that Bible prophecy is being correctly understood is to study the details or as you write: " to parse out every nuance of Bible prophecy." The way to ensure personal defeat is to ignore the details, promote traditional understandings that were the best available at the time they were formed, and wait and see. But prophecy is given for a purpose. To Understand the purpose behind God's prophetic revelation I suggest brushing up on Revelation 1. Based on memory,  it goes something like this...the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to SHOW His servants things which MUST shortly come to pass...blessed is he that readeth and they that hear….

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hch

Came to the realization of the sequencing this morning from studying Daniel 7:

1) the #IranUSwar starts

2) Donald gets fired (impeached)

3) Michael stands for his people...

4) and at last, Michael will stand for His people.

 

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APL
On 1/12/2019 at 6:11 AM, hch said:

To Understand the purpose behind God's prophetic revelation I suggest brushing up on Revelation 1. Based on memory,  it goes something like this...the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to SHOW His servants things which MUST shortly come to pass...blessed is he that readeth and they that hear…. 

And WHEN was that written?  Let him that readeth understand. 
It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional.

Had Adventists, after the great disappointment in 1844, held fast their faith, and followed on unitedly in the opening providence of God, receiving the message of the third angel and in the power of the Holy Spirit proclaiming it to the world, they would have seen the salvation of God, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts, the work would have been completed, and Christ would have come ere this to receive His people to their reward. {1SM 68.1}

And no Michael Pence or Donald Trump needed or expected.

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hch
On ‎1‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 11:10 AM, APL said:

And WHEN was that written?  Let him that readeth understand. 
It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional.

Had Adventists, after the great disappointment in 1844, held fast their faith, and followed on unitedly in the opening providence of God, receiving the message of the third angel and in the power of the Holy Spirit proclaiming it to the world, they would have seen the salvation of God, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts, the work would have been completed, and Christ would have come ere this to receive His people to their reward. {1SM 68.1}

And no Michael Pence or Donald Trump needed or expected.

God knows the end from the beginning. He knew that there would be a Great disappointment in 1844, that Adventists would not hold fast their faith, follow on unitedly, etc., and that Presidents Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, Obama, Trump, and Pence would come onto the American stage.

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The same spirit is seen today that is represented in Revelation 6:6-8. History is to be reenacted. That which has been will be again. This spirit works to confuse and to perplex. Dissension will be seen in every nation, kindred, tongue and people, and those who have not had a spirit to follow the light that God has given through His living oracles, through His appointed agencies, will become confused. Their judgment will reveal weakness. Disorder and strife and confusion will be seen in the church.  {4MR 152.1}

 

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APL

Henry - what if your historicist view of Revelation is completely wrong?  Read Revelation from a Cosmic Conflict view, and not the typical historicist view (which changes depending on the interpreter) and EGW's quote above makes perfect sense.  The scroll that is sealed contains writing that is not unknown, it is not understood.  Christ is the one who unlocks the seals, that is, reveal the true meaning.  Don't trust everyone on a white horse.

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Gregory Matthews

 

So, HCH, you are saying that Pence will become President?

Perhaps?

 

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hch
8 hours ago, APL said:

Henry - what if your historicist view of Revelation is completely wrong?  Read Revelation from a Cosmic Conflict view, and not the typical historicist view (which changes depending on the interpreter) and EGW's quote above makes perfect sense.  The scroll that is sealed contains writing that is not unknown, it is not understood.  Christ is the one who unlocks the seals, that is, reveal the true meaning.  Don't trust everyone on a white horse.

You are welcome to examine the facts and show me where my reading goes astray.

A good place to begin:

1) the #IranUSwar starts

2) Donald gets fired (impeached)

3) Michael stands for his people...

4) and at last, Michael will stand for His people.

The scroll has the history of the world and the church, i.e., every nation from Babylon to Obama and beyond.  But when it is too late to be benefited from studying the word (there will be a famine in the land of the word of God) so many will weep and wail as they did in Noah's Day. Needless self flagellation. 

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hch
8 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

 

So, HCH, you are saying that Pence will become President?

Perhaps?

 

Gregory,

yes. 

When I understood the identity of the first beast in Revelation 13, I knew that the 7th head was Benedict XVI and that President Bush II had been anointed the Protestant Prince of the Covenant on 20 January 2001 in fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Thus I followed the transition of the prophecy from Benedict XVI to Bush II. Since the second beast only had 2 lamblike horns, I was certain that they were Bush II and Obama. When Trump came to office, it meant back to the Bible and my prayer closet.

The solution hinged on the word duo. I already  understood that Pope John-Paul II had repeated the 42 months from 9/11/01 to 2 April 2005, received and healed from the deadly wound, made communism fall without firing a shot, and the world wondered after him (Reagan healed his papal wound on behalf of USA and Bush I declared pope John-Paul II the world's Moral Leader [head of all the churches]). I also understood that there was some time left over between 9/11/01 to 4/2/05 (42 full months) and part of Sept 2001 & April 2005. I also knew that the 42 months on the Hebrew calendar were 42 & 2 to the very day (the month of Adar I had been added twice during that timeframe). But I did not understand the significance of 42 & 2, even though I was aware of the fact that they had fulfilled the prophecy and that the word duo in Luke 10:1 with ana (that means by) is read two by two. The word duo is the two doubled.

When I had my epiphany moment, duo in Revelation 13 relating to Pope John-Paul II was fulfilled literally as 40 and 2 & 2 months. The same word duo in the description of the 42 months is in the description of the  earth beast's horns: It must be read as 2 & 2 horns. Thus the kings from the earth are Bush II, Obama, Trump, and a final President. 

Daniel 12:1 states that Michael stands, Them comes the time of trouble, then deliverance. Putting that together with what I already understood about Daniel 11 with the comments from the Spirit of prophecy. Michael (Pence) standing for his people is a counterfeit of Michael (Christ ) standing for His people. 

The last events will be rapid ones! I hope I am wrong. There will no satisfaction in being correct. But with the time allotted for the Judgment of the dead and living ended, the dead church having two living popes as Babylon had two kings when it fell, and the 4th angel sounding in Revelation, being at the end of the 6000 years from creation, etc., there are just too many factors coming together now to dare chance studying to show ourselves approved of God workers that won't need to be ashamed to stand in His presence.

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hch
9 hours ago, APL said:

Henry - what if your historicist view of Revelation is completely wrong?  Read Revelation from a Cosmic Conflict view, and not the typical historicist view (which changes depending on the interpreter) and EGW's quote above makes perfect sense.  The scroll that is sealed contains writing that is not unknown, it is not understood.  Christ is the one who unlocks the seals, that is, reveal the true meaning.  Don't trust everyone on a white horse.

I would ask you, a question: What if I am completely right?

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phkrause

And what if EGWs interpretation of the Bible is completely right?? Do we have a standoff?? I know who I'll listen to!!

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APL
4 hours ago, hch said:

I would ask you, a question: What if I am completely right? 

You are not right.  The shoe is too small.

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hch
9 hours ago, phkrause said:

And what if EGWs interpretation of the Bible is completely right?? Do we have a standoff?? I know who I'll listen to!!

Ellen White is completely right! And since she and I agree completely, you are making a false contrast.

let's look t a few of her counsels:

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God calls upon those who stand as soldiers under his blood-stained banner to go to work. He will give increased light to those who love the light, to those who seek for the truth with keen perception. In the Holy Spirit, celestial aid is given to every soul. Heavenly inspiration is still imparted to God's people. God would have those who know the truth impart that which they have gained in Christian experience. The time is coming when it will be too late to use the light we now have. Then the decree will go forth: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."  {RH, August 23, 1898 par. 7}  

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The Lord lives and reigns. There is to be such a time of trouble as there never was since there was a nation. Already nations are angry, already Satan is working with signs and lying wonders, and this will increase until the end. God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. These enemies of God are living evidences of the truth of His word; they are fulfilling that which holy men of old spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. God does not forewarn His people of trifles; the repetition of caution and warnings shows that there is importance in that which was spoken. Do those who claim to want light, treat the light with the respect which is due?  {PC 136.3}  

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We should have less preaching, and more teachings. As we approach nearer the end, I have seen that in our camp-meetings there will be less preaching and more Bible study,--little groups all over the ground with their Bibles in their hands, and different ones leading out in a free conversational study of the Scriptures. It has been shown me that our camp-meetings were to increase in interest and success. There are those who want more definite light than is received from the preaching of the Word. Some need a longer time than do others to understand the points presented. If the teaching could be made a little plainer, they would see the truth, take hold of it, and it would be like a nail fastened in a sure place.  {PH130 40.1} 

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The solemn message for this time has a certain sound which we all should heed. The signs of the times tell us that the end of all things is at hand. Prophecies fulfilled have become facts of history, clearly defining our position. We are standing upon the verge of the eternal world. Because iniquity abounds, the love of many is waxing cold. Instead of this, love for God, love for purity, truth, and holiness, should be increasing in our hearts. The increase of wickedness around us should awaken in us more earnest zeal and stronger determination. The faith of God's true people, manifested, as was Noah's, by their works, should stand as a beacon of warning to the world. If our works do not correspond with our profession, we present to the world a false light, and thus lure them on to destruction.  {RH, November 29, 1881 par. 10}  

 

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hch
5 hours ago, APL said:

You are not right.  The shoe is too small.

Prove it by the Scriptures.

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Gregory Matthews

As to Pence becoming President:  An informed person does not have to go to the Bible to prove that.  Pence may very well become President sometime.  But, if that happens, it will not prove that the Bible correctly predicted such.  In addition it will not prove that you (HCH) are correct in the message that you proclaim.

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APL
13 hours ago, hch said:

I would ask you, a question: What if I am completely right?

Eh - Obama - were you right on him?  Nope.

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hch
2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

As to Pence becoming President:  An informed person does not have to go to the Bible to prove that.  Pence may very well become President sometime.  But, if that happens, it will not prove that the Bible correctly predicted such.  In addition it will not prove that you (HCH) are correct in the message that you proclaim.

Based on the preponderance of the evidence, it would do more to vindicate my interpretation than to disprove it.

However, be warned: Do not run the clock down and expect to redeem the time when the preponderance of evidence is incontrovertible. The antediluvians tried that...it did not work for them and it will not work for you or anyone else. Bible study is a faith based initiative. 

The sequence that I currently understand (though continuing to study):

#IranUSwar

President Trump is ousted

President Pence takes control (he is the power spoken of in Daniel 11:30)

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 Much of the history that has taken place in fulfillment of this prophecy [Daniel 11] will be repeated. In the thirtieth verse a power is spoken of that "shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant." [Verses 31-36, quoted.]  {13MR 394.1} 

Mark of the best will be implemented

Time of Trouble morphs into Jacob's Time of Trouble

Jesus stands for His people

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hch
17 minutes ago, APL said:

Eh - Obama - were you right on him?  Nope.

Were the Adventists waiting for Christ completely right in 1844? Nope

I am in good company. I have the opportunity to study and learn while others trample pearls into the ground

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hch

It is sad that the Jews would not bother to look at the facts and attempt to understand them when they were presented early on. After they reject what they did not completely understand; when it becomes more clear, (they still would not look at the evidence honestly) They used convoluted reasoning to protect their established notions.

The Jews did this at Christ's First Advent. We would do well to be mindful of their error and to beware that we do not repeat that error as Christ's Second Advent nears.

Pause. Pray. and study to show ourselves workers that need not to be ashamed...rightly dividing the word of truth. 

NOW IS THE TIME FOR THE 10 VIRGINS TO SEEK THE OIL AND TO TRIM THEIR LAMPS. 

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Those who become confused in their understanding of the Word, who fail to see the meaning of antichrist, will surely place themselves on the side of antichrist. There is no time now for us to assimilate with the world. Daniel is standing in his lot and in his place. The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which every one should understand. These prophecies are to be witnesses in the world. By their fulfillment in these last days they will explain themselves.  {7BC 949.6}  

My reading of Michael in Daniel 12:1 makes the meaning of this quotation more significant TODAY!

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APL
30 minutes ago, hch said:

Were the Adventists waiting for Christ completely right in 1844? Nope

I am in good company. I have the opportunity to study and learn while others trample pearls into the ground

The adventists learned and did not make the same mistake again, yet not all. 

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hch
23 minutes ago, APL said:

The adventists learned and did not make the same mistake again, yet not all. 

The mistake of 1843 was repeated again in 1844. But when those awaiting Christ's Advent got it right in 1844 (about the Investigative Judgment beginning in Heaven), it could not be proved. EGW confirmed it by saying that she had seen the commencement of the IJ in Heaven in vision.

By faith the early Adventists believed the Scripture and accepted the visions that confirmed their faith. But the skeptics did not believe that the IJ started in Heaven and they refused to believe the visions. Thus truth and error collided as the wheat and tares grew together.  The faithful grew in faith and the skeptics grew in their doubting.

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We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we shall forget the way the Lord has led us, and His teaching in our past history.  {LS 196.2}

We should be afraid that SDA's are being taught that God is not leading us with Bible prophecy. Time prophecy led us in 1843 & 44, and it is leading us in 2019. forgetting how God has led us with fallibility in the past is evidence that our prophetic understanding is to be fallible in the future. God did not lead the 1843 or 44 Advent Movement with Infalibility and He is not leading us that way today. As they studied and grew in faith, we are to do likewise. As professed believers rejected the light that came from the throne of Heaven then, they will do the same thing today.

Christ's Advent is in our immediate future. We should know that it is not time for our young people to choose to have a military career. Should they be in the armed forces when the Mark of the Beast is enforced? Should we have massive retirement accounts when money is about to be eliminated? Should we build bigger houses when the gospel is wanting to be heard by starving humanity? MY PEOPLE ARE DESTROYED FOR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE! 

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hch
58 minutes ago, APL said:

... yet not all.

Those people who are afraid to make a mistake are in danger according to Revelation  21:8   "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

God invites us to reason together. We wonder about the future and He knows the future. Thus we can know about the future according to the revelation that He has placed in His word. 

I read something like this: It is a sin to not know what God has revealed if we have the opportunity to know. And we will be evaluated as if we knew what we had the opportunity to know.

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APL

The presumption is that God has revealed something specific about Bush, Trump, Pence. You are basically appealing to the fear factor. 

God has told us what the final message of mercy is, that is illumination in its power.  And it is not Pence.  But Henry, you never speak about the final messsage to be given. 

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