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Gregory Matthews

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Gustave
9 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Origen stated that there was "no time when the Son was not" - not to minimize some "issues" with Origen I think the 1st article written by the SDA Pastor is way off the mark - Origen would not have subscribed to the Doctrines of the Early SDA's whereas the Godhead was concerned - he would have condemned them and indeed did condemn several of them. 

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8thdaypriest

The Son of God "created all things".  Time is a created dimension.  The Son of God EXISTED before "time" was created.  There was "no time when the Son was not".  

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Gustave
On ‎7‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 3:35 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

The Son of God "created all things".  Time is a created dimension.  The Son of God EXISTED before "time" was created.  There was "no time when the Son was not".  

Are you saying that prior to "time" - within eternity prior to the creation event that The Son was begat and prior to that didn't exist? As in the following way:

 

  Review and Herald, November 14 1854
Again, where it is declared, that there are none good except the Father, it cannot be understood that none others are good in a relative sense; for Christ and angels, are good, yea perfect, in their respective sphere; but that the Father alone is supremely, or absolutely, good; AND that he alone is immortal in an absolute sense; that he alone is self-existent; and, that, consequently, every other being, however high or low, is absolutely dependent upon him for life; for being. This idea is most emphatically expressed by our savior himself; " For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself." John v, 26.

In other -words are you saying that at some point inside eternity that the Son wasn't self existent? 

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8thdaypriest
1 hour ago, Gustave said:

Are you saying that prior to "time" - within eternity prior to the creation event that The Son was begat and prior to that didn't exist? As in the following way:

 

  Review and Herald, November 14 1854
Again, where it is declared, that there are none good except the Father, it cannot be understood that none others are good in a relative sense; for Christ and angels, are good, yea perfect, in their respective sphere; but that the Father alone is supremely, or absolutely, good; AND that he alone is immortal in an absolute sense; that he alone is self-existent; and, that, consequently, every other being, however high or low, is absolutely dependent upon him for life; for being. This idea is most emphatically expressed by our savior himself; " For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself." John v, 26.

In other -words are you saying that at some point inside eternity that the Son wasn't self existent? 

The Son (note the identifier "Son") would not have existed, except that He was begotten from His Father.   BEFORE He was begotten from His Father,  He existed only in His Father's mind.  If the term "before" can even be used in eternity - before time as we know it began. 

Once begotten, with the same nature as His Father, the Son would Himself then be a source of life.  The same cannot be said of angels or men, which cannot create life from themselves.  

If Satan could create life , he would have!

During His incarnation - into the form and nature of a human being - the Son could NOT create life, or give life, except when the power of His Father flowed THROUGH Him.  

The verse from John that you quoted, was Jesus speaking during His incarnation.  He also said:

John 14:10  "The Father who dwells in Me does the works."

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Gustave
13 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The Son (note the identifier "Son") would not have existed, except that He was begotten from His Father.   BEFORE He was begotten from His Father,  He existed only in His Father's mind.  If the term "before" can even be used in eternity - before time as we know it began. 

Once begotten, with the same nature as His Father, the Son would Himself then be a source of life.  The same cannot be said of angels or men, which cannot create life from themselves.  

If Satan could create life , he would have!

During His incarnation - into the form and nature of a human being - the Son could NOT create life, or give life, except when the power of His Father flowed THROUGH Him.  

The verse from John that you quoted, was Jesus speaking during His incarnation.  He also said:

John 14:10  "The Father who dwells in Me does the works."

So, in your understanding what is the mystery? Sounds as if you have explained everything? 

Had you been a Bishop invited to Nicaea would you have been the 4th one to agree with Arius? 

Do you also believe that Christ could have sinned and lost His Salvation? 

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8thdaypriest
1 minute ago, Gustave said:

So, in your understanding what is the mystery? Sounds as if you have explained everything? 

Colossians 1:26 "the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

Many mysteries mentioned in Scripture.  The above is the greatest.  Why?   Because this is HOW we may partake of salvation.  

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Gustave
47 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Colossians 1:26 "the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

Many mysteries mentioned in Scripture.  The above is the greatest.  Why?   Because this is HOW we may partake of salvation.  

I was thinking of 1 Timothy 3,9 & specifically 1 Timothy 3, 16 in that it says it was "God" that was manifested in the flesh. As I reject Ellen White's teaching that the Father was a flesh and bone hominid God that defaults into The Son of God being "God", exactly as the text says. 

Do you believe that Christ was peccable? 

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JoeMo

I am leading worship tomorrow at the small SDA Church I have been attending for several years now (less and less).  Since it is an older crowd, I'm singing old hymns rather than contemporary songs.  One of the songs I'm doing is "Holy, Holy, Holy".  The first and last verse traditionally end with "God in three Persons, Blessed Trinity".  I did find a version of the song that ends those verses with "God over all Who rules eternity".  I think I remember that version in the old black SDA Hymnal from the 1960's and 70's.  I don't have that hymnal, so I can't check.  Does anyone else remember that version?  If so, maybe there were some folks out there that weren't convinced of a Trinity quite a while ago.

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JoeMo

"Hymn No. 73 (Holy, Holy, Holy): This hymn was originally written in 1826 by Reginald Heber. 
In its original form it was a Trinitarian song, which read at the end of the first and fourth stanzas follows: “God in three persons, blessed Trinity!” 


This song was placed in the 1909 and 1941 Seventh-day Adventist Hymnals, but the trinity part was at that time changed to: “God over all who rules eternity!” and “Perfect in power, in love and purity.”This song was purposely changed into a non-trinitarian song by Seventh-day Adventists, expressing their views on the Trinity back then.

 
In the new 1985 Adventist Hymnal this song was changed back to its Catholic original, praising a three-in-one God. But this is not Scriptural."

From http://thegreatcontroversy.info/errors-in-the-new-sda-hymna.html

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8thdaypriest

Yes.  I remember that hymn. 

There's also the one that ends "Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost.  Amen."  

When I have to sing that song, I change it to "Praise Father and Son for the Holy Ghost."

There is no command to praise the Holy Spirit. 

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The Wanderer
On 7/14/2018 at 4:53 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

I have not listened to the podcast yet; but the article was quite good:

Quote

How does this relate to modern Adventist anti-trinitarians? As stated above, very few contemporary Adventist anti-trinitarians would agree with Uriah Smith, though they share his view of Christ as less than equal with the Father. The Alexandrian concept of generation as a solution of the issue of Christ’s origins classifies modern Adventist anti-trinitarians with ancient Alexandrian thinkers as subordinationists or, to use their own term, “Fountanarians” (God the Father is the “fountain” from which all other life flows).

I have a few studies about this that some may be interested in. If you click on any of these links, you will be able to run your mouse over any of the many scripture references and get an idea of the context. The 2nd study below addresses the comment re  God the Father is the “fountain” from which all other life flows

1   God: The Holy Spirit, Part One

2   God: The Holy Spirit, Part Two

3   The Truth About Worshipping God

4    The Spirit Speaks Expressly

For what its worth; it was a lot of work to put these studies together; but it gave me a better sense of where to stand on this issue. I do NOT speak on any official basis for The Adventist Church; nor do I believe that anyone who does not see it the way I do is for some reason, "not saved."

I posted these studies because the church's greatest need for this hour is The Holy Spirit; and His conviction of our hearts regarding the things in Scripture, concerning Himself. I have some studies on the nature of Christ coming up soon.

 

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