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8thdaypriest

At the Creation

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8thdaypriest

Were THREE divine beings involved in the creation? 

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." (NKJ)

At the creation, "God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness'"  (Gen 1:26 NKJ)  Plural words to be sure.  But the words do NOT tell us that there were THREE divine beings involved in the creation, only that more than one divine being was making man. 

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

Hebrews 1:8-12   But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions1." 10 And: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail."

The One speaking never calls "the Son" "My God", but He does call the Son - "God".

    Colossians 1:15-17   “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.  All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.”

    I Corinthians 8:6  “yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.”

    Hebrews 1:1-2 “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.”

God the Father is credited with the creation.  All created life proceeds from God the Father.  The Father acted THROUGH His Son, whom He calls "God".  

    Revelation 4:9-11 “Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying: ‘You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created.’”

      

I would like to discuss those texts which describe The Holy Spirit as an active THIRD AGENT in the creation.   Are there any such texts?

 

 

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JoeMo
7 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I would like to discuss those texts which describe The Holy Spirit as an active THIRD AGENT in the creation.   Are there any such texts?

The closest thing I could find was Genesis 1:1, where it says the Spirit hovered over the waters. Nothing about the Spirit taking an active role in creation.  I'm not trying to sound sacrilegious but clouds can hover as well., 

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Gregory Matthews

Rachel:  The following websites contain Biblical texts that some believe indicate that the Holy Spirit had a role in creating the Earth.  Of course there is duplication and not every alleged text is a solid as is others.  But, this listing simply gives you some texts to consider and to discuss.

Gregory Matthews

 

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/The-Spirit~s-Role-In-Creation

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/The-Holy-Spirit-In-Creation

https://answersingenesis.org/answers/biblical-authority-devotional/how-was-the-holy-spirit-involved-in-creation/

https://creationtoday.org/the-holy-spirit-in-creation/

*********************

But the strongest statement about the Holy Spirit being involved in the creation comes from Ps. 104:30.

You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; and You renew the face of the ground. (NASB) Psalm 104:30

**********************

Third, the Holy Spirit was the agent of creation. In the account of creation at the very beginning of the Bible, we are told: “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters” (Gen. 1:1-2). The Hebrew word translated as “Spirit” here is ruach, which also can mean “breath.” The ruach elohim, “the Breath of the Almighty,” is the agent in creation. It is not the immateriality of the Spirit that is in view here, but rather His power and energy; the picture is of God’s energy breathing out creation, as it were, speaking the worlds into existence, putting the stars into space. Thus, when we read Isaiah 40:26 and the question is asked, “Who created these?” we have the answer in Genesis 1:2—the Spirit is the irresistible power by which God accomplishes His purpose.

 

 

 

http://www.churchsociety.org/issues_new/doctrine/heads/spirit/iss_doctrine_heads_spirit_creation.asp

 

 

 

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JoeMo
3 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Third, the Holy Spirit was the agent of creation.

To me, none of the scriptural references even vaguely imply that the HS is a Person; the commentators simply infer this.  The verses quoted indicate that it is the breath or power of God that created the universe.  God's power hovered over the waters, just like a hurricane's power hovers over the water.

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Gregory Matthews

The thrust of the passages, as I listed them was to suggest the activity of the Holy Spirit in Creation as requested by 8th Day Priest.

I would not argue with your point that they do not suggest a person.

Again, I remind your of  my distinction between a person and a personal being.

 

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8thdaypriest
6 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

But the strongest statement about the Holy Spirit being involved in the creation comes from Ps. 104:30.

You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; and You renew the face of the ground. (NASB) Psalm 104:30

**********************

Third, the Holy Spirit was the agent of creation. In the account of creation at the very beginning of the Bible, we are told: “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters” (Gen. 1:1-2). 

"Your" and "of" are possessive terms.  "Your Spirit" is a spirit belonging to "You" (as in "your arm" or coming from "You" (as in your voice).     The "Spirit OF God" has it's source in God, or comes from God.   Neither text reads as - God the Spirit hovered over the waters.   The question remains.  Who is "You", in the passage ?   Some would say "You" is God (the Trinity), but the passage can more clearly be understood as God the Father sending forth His life giving Spirit. 

Ones interpretation of the passages depends upon ones already established view.   

[To set the record straight, and I can see now that I  was not clear, all of the above was a quotation from another Internet source--GM.]

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8thdaypriest

I do not see THREE divine personal beings at work in the creation.   I do see more than ONE personal being, because "God" said, "Let us make man in our image."   

We know from several NT passages that God created all things THROUGH His Son.   We could easily infer that God the Father said to His divine Son, "Let us make man in our image."  

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Gregory Matthews

Rachel, you asked for texts, and  I provided you with some texts that others believe respond to your question.

I am not taking a position on those texts. although I probably would agree with some and  might not agree with others.  I simply wanted to respond to your question by providing some texts that might be worthy of further study.

As I said in a statement that I placed in your post;  None of the cited passage was what I was saying.  All of it was a quote from another source.  I now realize that I was not clear on that point when I posted.   I can understand why you thought that part of it was my words.

 

 

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8thdaypriest
1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Rachel, you asked for texts, and  I provided you with some texts that others believe respond to your question.

I am not taking a position on those texts. although I probably would agree with some and  might not agree with others.  I simply wanted to respond to your question by providing some texts that might be worthy of further study.

As I said in a statement that I placed in your post;  None of the cited passage was what I was saying.  All of it was a quote from another source.  I now realize that I was not clear on that point when I posted.   I can understand why you thought that part of it was my words.

 

 

Thanks Gregory.  I knew it was not "your words".  I wasn't posting back at you.  I was posting about the quoted texts.  

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LifeHiscost
On 7/20/2018 at 8:40 AM, JoeMo said:

To me, none of the scriptural references even vaguely imply that the HS is a Person; the commentators simply infer this.  The verses quoted indicate that it is the breath or power of God that created the universe.  God's power hovered over the waters, just like a hurricane's power hovers over the water.

Does this give any hint?

16 “For these things I weep; My eye, my eye overflows with water; Because the comforter, who should restore my life   Lamentations 1

God is Love!~Jesus saves!   :prayer: :offtobed:

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LifeHiscost
10 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Actually, no.  Sorry!

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go [c]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [d]Amen.,,Matthew 28

What reason would there be for giving this directive for a lessor power to something/Someone less than a Person?

God is Love!~Jesus saves! :D:offtobed:

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JoeMo

"baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19).   Some older manuscripts simply say "baptizing them in My Name" (or something akin to that)  In every instance of the Acts of the Apostles where people were baptized, they were baptized in the name of Jesus; nowhere does it say they were baptized in the name of the the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. See Acts 2:38, 8:12, 8:16, 10:48, and 19:5

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JoeMo
7 hours ago, phkrause said:

Here's an interesting article on this subject:

Interesting article with some great insight.  But no explicit "proof" of a trinity.  While the HS is an integral part of God, I don't think it is necessary to consider it a Person.  But I won't pretend to understand the nature of the Godhead.

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The Wanderer
44 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Interesting article with some great insight.  But no explicit "proof" of a trinity.  While the HS is an integral part of God, I don't think it is necessary to consider it a Person.  But I won't pretend to understand the nature of the Godhead.

This comment highlights one of the areas where the anti-Trinity arguments fall through. There are many ways that Scripture tells us/warns us that we cannot know God; He is beyond finding out. What makes anyone think they can be so sure that the father or the Son are "persons" as if they know the very substance of God. NONE of the Three are "Persons."

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thx4mercy
11 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I don't think it is necessary to consider it a Person. 

In the middle of John 16 there is a series of verses where Jesus is talking about the Holy Spirit and there is about 7 places where Jesus uses the word "he" or "him" -- "I will send him" -- "when he is come" -- "he will reprove" -- "he will guide you" etc.  Sounds like a person.

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8thdaypriest
11 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

This comment highlights one of the areas where the anti-Trinity arguments fall through. There are many ways that Scripture tells us/warns us that we cannot know God; He is beyond finding out. What makes anyone think they can be so sure that the father or the Son are "persons" as if they know the very substance of God. NONE of the Three are "Persons."

"Persons" - meaning - human persons?    

I think that's why Gregory likes to call them "personal beings".  

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The Wanderer
On 7/19/2018 at 8:59 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

    I Corinthians 8:6  “yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.”

While the Bible does describe 3 separate and distinct Personalities; for all three members of The Godhead; there is nothing stating that God is a "person."

The word "one" is often quoted quite out of context, in most of the anti-Trinity arguments I have seen. When I say "the name of God," or "the name of Jesus" or "name of the Spirit,"  I understand that kind of use to be in the plural or collective sense. There are literally hundreds of names in scripture for all of "The Three;"  yet we can accurately say "the name of God," as in all of the hundreds of names we see in scripture, collectively called "God.".

In a nutshell; thats how I understand it, so far. As far as I understand "God" there is no mandate in scripture admonishing us to adopt any kind of Modalism, where in one example; its Jesus, then the next one, the same being or Jesus, suddenly morphs into a or the Spirit," and then in yet other examples; He is suddenly the Father. trying to strangulate the name of God with such distortions of His name and nature, simply confuses what the Bible is trying to say when it says "one God."

From eternity God and Holy Spirit lived within the Godhead as the third member. The Father, Son, and Spirit are equally self-existent. Though each is equal, an economy of function operates within the Trinity).   

The truth about God the Holy Spirit is best understood as seen through Jesus. When the Spirit comes to believers, He comes as the "Spirit of Christ"-He does not come in His own right, carrying His own credentials. His activity in history centers in Christ's mission of salvation. The Holy Spirit was actively involved in Christ's birth (Luke 1:35), confirmed His public ministry at baptism (Mat_3:16-17), and brought the benefits of Christ's atoning sacrifice and resurrection to humanity (Rom 8:11).

In the Godhead, the Spirit seems to fulfill the role of executor. When the Father gave His Son to the world (John 3:16), He was conceived of the Holy Spirit (Mat_1:18-20). The Holy Spirit came to complete the plan, to make it a reality.

The Holy Spirit's intimate involvement in creation is seen in His presence at Creation (Gen_1:2). Life's origin and maintenance depends on His operation; His departure means death. Said the Bible, If God "'should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath, all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust'" (Jobn 34:14-15; Job 33:4). We can see reflections of the Spirit's creative work in His re-creative work within each person who is open to God. God carries out His work within individuals through the Creator Spirit. So in incarnation, creation, and re-creation, the Spirit comes to bring God's intention to fulfillment.

 

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JoeMo
11 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

What makes anyone think they can be so sure that the father or the Son are "persons" as if they know the very substance of God. NONE of the Three are "Persons."

Okay.  Does the term "Beings" rather than "Persons better fit your mental construct of God?  I'm okay with "Beings".

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The Wanderer
3 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

"Persons" - meaning - human persons?    

I think that's why Gregory likes to call them "personal beings".  

In my understanding; there is a place for calling them a Divine person; but NOT a human person. I mean; it's really hard to deny that all three do have Personality.

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JoeMo
28 minutes ago, thx4mercy said:

In the middle of John 16 there is a series of verses where Jesus is talking about the Holy Spirit and there is about 7 places where Jesus uses the word "he" or "him" -- "I will send him" -- "when he is come" -- "he will reprove" -- "he will guide you" etc.  Sounds like a person.

In most of those places, it's the translator that uses the term "he".  In the Greek, the word can just as easily be translated as "it".

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8thdaypriest
24 minutes ago, thx4mercy said:

In the middle of John 16 there is a series of verses where Jesus is talking about the Holy Spirit and there is about 7 places where Jesus uses the word "he" or "him" -- "I will send him" -- "when he is come" -- "he will reprove" -- "he will guide you" etc.  Sounds like a person.

Let's look at that passage.

        John 14:16-18 “And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.”

 “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Col. 1:27). 

 “I in you” (John 14:20).
        “Abide in Me, and I in you” (John 15:4).
            “If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness” (Rom 8:10).
            “You seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, who is not weak toward you, but mighty in you (2Co 13:3).
        “Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? (2Co 13:5)
Actually BOTH Christ and His Father come into our hearts.  
            “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him” (John 14:23).

I don't see a third divine being in all those verses.  

Conclusion: I believe that Jesus is here speaking of His future glorified spirit self. 
    Jesus spoke of His future glorified self in third person, on more than one occasion. 
    (Ref: Mat. 16:27, 25:31; Mk 8:38, 9:31;  Lk 9:26, Lk 18:8;  Jn 6:62.)  

“The last Adam has been made a life-giving Spirit” (1Cor 15:45). 
            The “last Adam” was/is Jesus.  He has become a life-giving Spirit.
            The Helper is Jesus - as Spirit.  


    

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The Wanderer
16 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

In most of those places, it's the translator that uses the term "he".  In the Greek, the word can just as easily be translated as "it".

IF one is going to apply an "it" to one; they have to do it to all Three. And that just doesn't compute.

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The Wanderer
7 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I don't see a third divine being in all those verses.  

Thats because you are only selecting texts that can be made to appear in support of your doctrine. But there are plenty of indications in Scripture that would say the opposite of what this post says about The Holy Spirit.

Christ called the Holy Spirit the "'Spirit of truth'" (John 14:17; John 15:26; John 16:13). His functions include bringing "'to your remembrance all things that I said to you'" (John14:26) and guiding "'you into all truth'" (John 16:13). His message testifies to Jesus Christ (John 15:26). "'He will not speak on His own authority, '" Christ said, "'but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you'" (John 16:13-14).

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