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The Wanderer
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In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. Isa 63:9

Any thoughts on the phrase "angel of His presence?"

Whose presence? Do we also have an "angel of His presence?  What is the Bible's intent here?

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JoeMo

Other translations say "It was not an angel, but the Lord himself who saved them. In his love and compassion he rescued them. He had always taken care of them in the past"

I believe the Angel of His (Yahweh's) Presence was none other than the pre-incarnate Jesus.  He is also referred to as the Angel of the Lord in several OT passages.

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8thdaypriest

The "Angel of the LORD" speaks as God
    
    Genesis 22:1-18  “But the Angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, ‘Abraham, Abraham!’ And he said, ‘Here I am.’ And He said, ‘Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son your only son, from Me.’”

        NOTE:  The Angel of the LORD speaks as Yehovah, saying, “You have not withheld your son . . . from Me.”  The word “angel” means “messenger” or “one sent.”   Christ clearly stated that He had been “sent” from The Father.   Yet we see that He was “the Word” from God, even before He became flesh (John 1:14). 

Hosea 12:3  Writing of Jacob and the Angel, Hosea says of Jacob, “He struggled with God.”

    Hosea 12:4  “He [Jacob] had power over the Angel and prevailed.”

    Genesis 31:10-13  Jacob said, “The Angel of God spoke to me in a dream saying, ‘I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar and where you made a vow to Me.’”

The "Angel" said "I am the God of Bethel".

    Exodus  3:2-6 “And the Angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of the burning bush:”(v.4).  “God [‘elohiym] called to him out of the midst of the bush,”(v.5). “Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.”(v.6). “I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God  of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” 

Here's a thought

Exodus 23:20-21 “And God [‘elohiym] spoke all these words, saying . . .” (Exo 20:1).  “Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place I have prepared.  Beware of Him and obey His voice: do not provoke Him for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him.”

        NOTE:  To an ancient Israelite - to Moses, the phrase “My name is in Him” meant, “He is My Son.”  Moses understood that the “messenger” in the pillar of cloud Who went before the camp of Israel, Who spoke with him “face to face” was the Son of God. 

 

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8thdaypriest

There are a dozen places where "the Angel of the LORD" speaks as God

Judges 2:1-2  “And the Angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I swore unto Your fathers, and I said, I will never break My covenant with you.”  “. . . but you have not obeyed My voice” (v.2).

Isaiah 63:9  “In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His presence saved them.”
    
        Christ is The Messenger of the Lord's presence, the mediator between God and men 
    (1Cor. 10:1-4).

In the NT

    1 Thessalonians 4:16  “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the Archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.  And the dead in Christ will rise first;” RSV

  John 5:25  Yeshua said, “The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God.”  


Put these two verses together.  
The “voice is the Son of God” IS the “Archangel’s call.” 
He IS the Archangel - the Chief Messenger.  
Certainly no one thinks that an angel can raise the dead.  

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The Wanderer
On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 3:46 PM, JoeMo said:

Other translations say "It was not an angel, but the Lord himself who saved them. In his love and compassion he rescued them. He had always taken care of them in the past"

I believe the Angel of His (Yahweh's) Presence was none other than the pre-incarnate Jesus.  He is also referred to as the Angel of the Lord in several OT passages.

I apologize for the fonts in the title of this thread. I had my CAPS lock on and did not realize until it was too late to edit.

[Acting on your behalf, I have made changes in the title to this thread--GM.]

I found some interesting commentary on this verse by Adam Clarke (Bible commentary for the Bible, as found in Esword)

“And he was salvation to them in all their tribulation; neither an ambassador nor an angel, but himself saved them.” An angel of his presence means an angel of superior order, in immediate attendance upon God. So the angel of the Lord says to Zacharias, “I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God,” Luk_1:19.

The presence of Jehovah, Exo_33:14, Exo_33:15, and the angel, Exo_33:20, Exo_33:21, is Jehovah himself; here an angel of his presence is opposed to Jehovah himself, as an angel is in the following passages of the same book of Exodus. After their idolatrous worshipping of the golden calf, “when God had said to Moses, I will send an angel before thee - I will not go up in the midst of thee - the people mourned,” Exo_33:2-4.

God afterwards comforts Moses, by saying, “My presence (that is I myself in person, and not by an angel) will go with thee,” Exo_33:14. Αυτος προπορευσομαι σου, “I myself will go before thee, “as the Septuagint render it.
 

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The Wanderer
9 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

There are a dozen places where "the Angel of the LORD" speaks as God

The text of the OP says "angel of His presence," not "angel of the Lord." Its the reason I started this thread, because I am interested to investigate "angel of The Lord," and what it could mean for us today. :)

Are there any differences between "angel of The Lord," oand "angel of His presence?  Who is "his" in the OPs supplied text? Where would the Bible support whatever answer comes up with this equation? :)

Just a quick thought, without looking anything else up, the word "presence" seems to me that it could be suggesting something that is "present" for believers today?  "How readest thou?"

8 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

The presence of Jehovah, Exo_33:14, Exo_33:15, and the angel, Exo_33:20, Exo_33:21, is Jehovah himself; here an angel of his presence is opposed to Jehovah himself, as an angel is in the following passages of the same book of Exodus. After their idolatrous worshipping of the golden calf, “when God had said to Moses, I will send an angel before thee - I will not go up in the midst of thee - the people mourned,” Exo_33:2-4.

 

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TrevorL

Greetings The Wanderer,

6 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Any thoughts on the phrase "angel of His presence?" Whose presence?

Gabriel is one Angel who stands in God the Father’s presence. Michael the Archangel also stands in God’s presence.

Luke 1:18–20 (KJV): 18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years. 19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. 20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

The above shows some of the authority with which Gabriel was invested.

Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God is superior to the Angels and is seated at the right hand of God.

Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Kind regards
Trevor

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8thdaypriest

"presence" is translated in a number of ways

"from His face",  "before Him", "before" (meaning where one can be seen),  "my sight",   'His countenance" ,  

also to mean the surface of -  the "surface of" (the earth or the land),  

The "Messenger of the LORD's presence" could mean a messenger sent from the immediate presence of God.  

It could also mean that God's presence is brought to the subject by the messenger, who speaks AS God (using the pronoun "I", rather than "He").    That would fit well with "the Messenger" (Angel) being the pre-incarnate Son of God, who was the exact image of God.  

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8thdaypriest

A rundown of "archangel"

From Wikipedia:

An archangel /ˌɑːrkˈnəl/ is an angel of high rank. The word "archangel" itself is usually associated with the Abrahamic religions, but beings that are very similar to archangels are found in a number of religious traditions.

The English word archangel is derived from the Greek ἀρχάγγελος (arch- + angel, literally "chief angel" or "angel of origin").[1] It appears only once in the New Testament in the phrase 'the archangel Michael' (Jude 9).

The corresponding Hebrew word in the Hebrew Scripture (Old Testament) is found in two places as in "Michael, one (or first) of the chief princes" (Dan 10:13) and in "Michael, the great prince" (Dan 12:1).

Rachel:  Fits with Michael being "the commander LORD's hosts".  I found "angel of origin" interesting.  The Son of God - who created all things (including the angels) would rightly be called the "angel of origin" - archangel.  

Back to Wiki:

Michael and Gabriel are recognized as archangels in Judaism, Islam, the Baha'i Faith, and by Catholic Christians.  

Protestants consider Michael to be the only archangel.     (Rachel:  because they do not accept the Apocryphal writings.)

 Raphael—mentioned in the deuterocanonical Book of Tobit—is also recognized as an archangel in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Gabriel, Michael, and Raphael are venerated in the Roman Catholic Church with a feast on September 29 (between 1921 and 1969, March 24 for Gabriel and October 24 for Raphael), and in the Eastern Orthodox Church on November 8 (if the Julian calendar is used, this corresponds to November 21 in the Gregorian).

The named archangels in Islam are Gabriel, Michael, Israfil, and Azrael. Jewish literature, such as the Book of Enoch, also mentions Metatron as an archangel, called the "highest of the angels", though the acceptance of this angel is not canonical in all branches of the faith.

Some branches of the faiths mentioned have identified a group of seven Archangels, but the named angels vary, depending on the source. Gabriel, Michael, and Raphael are always mentioned; the other archangels vary, but most commonly include Uriel, who is mentioned in 2 Esdras.

 

 

 

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The Wanderer
6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

It could also mean that God's presence is brought to the subject by the messenger,

I found it very interesting that the Aug, 2018 issue of The Adventist Messenger Magazine had on the front cover the headline: "The Ministry Of Presence, Adventists respond To Toronto Van attack."  I would suggest that this could also indicate "The Ministry Of HIS Presence."

"The Sunday following the tragedy, Seventh-day Adventists were among thousands of mourners during a walk of healing and solidarity, as well as an official vigil held at Mel Lastman Square, near the crime scene." And "it is our responsibility to reflect the love of Christ during tragic moments, and to be present. The ministry of presence is one of the most important ministries we could ever have. You dont even have to speak. Just that you are there speaks volumes."

Quote

In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. (Isa 63:9, Luke 1:19)

The Sin Of Unbelief Leads Away From God

Quote

 

In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit. Isaiah 63:9. {CTr 108.1}

From the beginning of sin Christ was with His people to dispute the authority of Satan, for He saw that the conflict must be carried on here in the earth. Satan withstood the Son of God in every effort to redeem His people. Enshrouded in the pillar of cloud by day and in the pillar of fire by night, Christ directed, guided, counseled the children of Israel in their journeyings from Egypt to Canaan. But how unwilling were the children of Israel to be led, how unwilling to be controlled by the voice of the Angel of the Lord! How eager they were in vindicating their own course, in justifying themselves in their rebellious feelings, and in following their own ideas and plans! {CTr 108.2}

It was the mighty Counselor who was enshrouded in the pillar of cloud and fire, and who was beholding the encampment of His people. It was He who corrected them in their evil ways, and encouraged them to trust in the living God to lead them safely to the Land of Promise. They were continually under the eye that never slumbers nor sleeps, and yet they murmured against Moses, the man whom God had appointed as their visible leader, and to whom Jesus Christ talked face-to-face, as a man talketh with his friend. Notwithstanding the fact that the Lord wrought through His servant Moses, yet when the enemy tempted them to evil surmising, jealousy, and faultfinding, they did not resist his temptations and stand firmly for principle. {CTr 108.3}

But their failure is explained by the Inspired Word, and a warning given to us upon whom the ends of the world are come, lest we also fall after the same example of unbelief. . . . The children of Israel fell under the power of the enemy by cherishing an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, and when once they were found on the enemy’s side, he pressed his advantage, and made them his allies to the utmost extent. The sin of unbelief, by which their confidence in the Son of God was destroyed, led Israel far astray. At the very time when they should have been praising God and magnifying the name of the Lord, talking of His goodness, telling of His power, they were found in unbelief, and full of murmuring and complaint. The deceiver was seeking through every means possible to sow discord among them, to create envy and hatred in their hearts against Moses, and to stir up rebellion against God. By listening to the voice of the great deceiver they were led into affliction, trial, and destruction.—Manuscript 65, 1895 (Signs of the Times, Apr. 25, 1895). {CTr 108.4}

 

It would seem that led by The Holy Spirit; the angel of our presence will enable God to get the message we need for the hour, to each of us, according to our needs.

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8thdaypriest
On 8/8/2018 at 6:22 PM, The Wanderer said:

the word "presence" seems to me that it could be suggesting something that is "present" for believers today? 

Another reason why I believe the "presence" with us and in us - is Jesus.   HE is still "the messenger of HIS presence".  

"I am with you always."

HIS presence - would be the presence of God our Father.  The "presence" of Jesus brings the presence of the Father.  

"If any man love me, My Father will love him, and WE will come and make OUR home with him"  (John 14:23).  

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