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8thdaypriest

Is healthcare "a right" ?

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8thdaypriest

Does every person have a right to healthcare?  How much healthcare?  Just basic or the latest and greatest? 

Before modern medicine, everyone was pretty much equal.  Germs did not discriminate between rich and poor.  Both rich and poor women died in childbirth.  Good nutrition did - of course - support health, but then you have to say that every human being has a right to enough good nutritious food.

The LORD commanded that widows and orphans be provided for.  Solomon said "if a man will not work, neither should he eat". 

What SHOULD "the government" (whether state or federal) provide for?  Do the governed have a right to expect their government to provide money for healthcare? 

If the government is to "keep people safe" - then is not healthcare part of keeping people safe? 

We can go on to debate what plan for healthcare might work, but for now I'd like to hear thoughts on whether access to healthcare is a basic human right.

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rudywoofs (Pam)

while it would be ideal if access to healthcare was a "right," the fact of the matter is, it's a privilege, rather than a right (or entitlement). 

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CoAspen

It's a 'right' because we pay taxes. And yes, we all pay taxes, even if you don't have a formal job. Everything we buy has some sort of tax involved. Taxes provide us with a great many privileges/rights such as the military, fire and police services, vast park and recreational resources, etc. So I will call it a 'right', not to quibble with other definitions!

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8thdaypriest

We want our government to protect us, or rescue us (in the event of a natural disaster), so why not protect our health? 

The LORD is our true government - right?  He has not provided healthcare, except as a special blessing for obedience, and even then we still die. 

IF - all people everywhere have a right to healthcare, does that mean poor nations have a right to expect help from wealthier nations - for healthcare?  Is this a spread the wealth issue? 

And what about the folks who abuse their health?  Smokers, drug addicts, food addicts, etc. etc.  Do they have a right to unending healthcare for conditions caused by their own behaviors?   

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8thdaypriest

Forgive me if I go on abit.

I tend to agree that folks have a right - these days - to expect healthcare.  But healthcare is EXPENSIVE, so folks should expect to pay for it with taxes.   But taxes suppress the economy. At this point in the US economy, we can't afford more debt.  We are about buried in debt. 

I do think folks who abuse their health with bad habits, should pay more.  I think there should be a high tax on cigs and sweets and sodas and dangerous sports equipment, etc. etc.  That tax should go towards healthcare.  

So what might be the best way for the government to provide for healthcare? 

The government always does a poor job - compared to the private sector where competition is involved.  We in the US, have seen that with the VA scandle. 

Any time big business smells money in the water,  they manipulate prices to serve themselves. 

When the government paid the money to the hospitals, suddenly the hospitals began charging a LOT MORE for their services.  When the government paid the money to insurance companies,  those companies suddenly began raising premiums.  Same with drug companies, and rehabilitation services, etc. etc. etc. 

If the government gives the money to citizens (with the stipulation that it be used only for "healthcare" as defined by the government) then prices will go up, because big business knows that people have money to spend for healthcare.  

If the government then regulates all the prices (to keep them down), then service providers (especially doctors, etc.) will move to other places where they CAN charge more, (like from Canada to the US,  OR the brighter minds will not go into medicine in the first place.  They will go into law, or business investment.  Then the citizens will have doctors trained in other countries (which is already happening). 

I just don't think there IS an answer to the heathcare problem.   Any way you slice it, there are BIG PROBLEMS. 

If an element of competition could be introduced, that would help to bring prices down.  If folks could use their money (or insurance) at ANY hospital, or with any doctor, that would force competition.  Even if they all charged the same, they would compete for business with better service.  THAT would be a plus. 

If folks could buy insurance in groups of their own making THAT would give individuals with small businesses a better bargaining position. 

If folks could buy insurance across state lines, that would create more competition between insurance companies, and eliminate state lobbies and monopolies. 

Has ANYONE seen a plan that might work?

Folks were disgusted with the Republicans because they wanted to repeal the HCA, because they were not ready with something workable to put in its place.  Folks were also disgusted with the HCA because it is NOT the HCA.  It should have been called the UN-Affordable Healthcare Act.  

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B/W Photodude
5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Does every person have a right to healthcare?

I think that people do not understand the meaning of some of the words being used here. While some definitions may mix "rights" and "entitlements", they are much different. Entitlements are something that gives you access to the goods of a society, in this case, healthcare. A right would be you cannot be discriminated against in receiving healthcare or be restricted in your life such as being denied the right to vote, etc.

So, some may go out and say that a person has a right to healthcare, but what if on a certain day or in a certain place, all the healthcare personel just decide to take the day off. You show up at the doors of the hospital demanding your right to healthcare and there is no one there to provide it. Shall we send out the sheriffs to arrest these healthcare people playing hooky and drag them in and make them provide this patients right to healthcare? What about the healthcare providers "rights"?

You may think this to be a bit ludicrous, but keep in mind that nationally we are very short of nurses and a huge part of the healthcare workers are closing in on retirement and schools cannot push out enough new grads to make up this slack. Also, keep in mind that over half of med school classes are now made up of women. (It is generally held that women are not going to put in the kinds of hours on the job that men in medicine have traditionally done. Just the reality of it.)  Shall we drag poor doctors and nurses out of the nursing home and make them go to work because you have a right to healthcare? 

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8thdaypriest
5 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

I think that people do not understand the meaning of some of the words being used here. While some definitions may mix "rights" and "entitlements", they are much different. Entitlements are something that gives you access to the goods of a society, in this case, healthcare. A right would be you cannot be discriminated against in receiving healthcare or be restricted in your life such as being denied the right to vote, etc.

So, some may go out and say that a person has a right to healthcare, but what if on a certain day or in a certain place, all the healthcare personel just decide to take the day off. You show up at the doors of the hospital demanding your right to healthcare and there is no one there to provide it. Shall we send out the sheriffs to arrest these healthcare people playing hooky and drag them in and make them provide this patients right to healthcare? What about the healthcare providers "rights"?

You may think this to be a bit ludicrous, but keep in mind that nationally we are very short of nurses and a huge part of the healthcare workers are closing in on retirement and schools cannot push out enough new grads to make up this slack. Also, keep in mind that over half of med school classes are now made up of women. (It is generally held that women are not going to put in the kinds of hours on the job that men in medicine have traditionally done. Just the reality of it.)  Shall we drag poor doctors and nurses out of the nursing home and make them go to work because you have a right to healthcare? 

Nurses and doctors from other countries will be allowed to immigrate.  That's already happening.  They serve 4 years in an "under-served area" and then they can move to a nice place.   The town I presently live in IS one of those "under-served areas".   I've seen a dozen or more docs flow in and out of this little town over the last 18 years. 

Believe me.  I was "dragged" back to the hospital at 2AM more times than I care to remember, for C-Sections, accidents, etc. etc. etc. 

Though I do agree that a lot of women go into specialties like dermatology (with no call). 

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B/W Photodude
9 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Nurses and doctors from other countries will be allowed to immigrate.  That's already happening.  They serve 4 years in an "under-served area" and then they can move to a nice place.   The town I presently live in IS one of those "under-served areas".   I've seen a dozen or more docs flow in and out of this little town over the last 18 years. 

What about the right of the people left behind when a foreign doctor leaves their country behind? Raiding the talent of underdeveloped countries has it's own evils.

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8thdaypriest
20 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Why do we even need to worry about who has a right to it?

I asked the question.   We need to worry about it, because it is a source of deep resentment in our society.  It seems like most regard healthcare as a right.   The sick resent the government (or their employers) when they don't have good insurance.   They feel they have been wronged.   And anything that fires resentment, festers and festers. 

If the LORD commanded us to visit the sick, and help the poor, it seems that He expects us to help the sick get better - and that means healthcare.  That's why so many denominations built hospitals wherever they went. 

Question ONE concerned whether the sick should EXPECT to receive healthcare. 

Question TWO concerns HOW to provide that care

Other questions would involve HOW MUCH care to provide, and to whom. (Should illegal aliens be cared for in the US, equally with citizens?)

We have a lot of brains here at CA.   Can't we come up with a good plan?  

 

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JoeMo
3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

(Should illegal aliens be cared for in the US, equally with citizens?)

Not with taxpayer money.  If a faith-based NGO wants to pick up their bills, more power to them.  Let those who feel strongly about free healthcare for indigent aliens pick up their expenses rather than forcing all American citizens - especially those who can't even afford their own health care expenses - pick them up.

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8thdaypriest
47 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

getting rid of Big Pharma as a "health-care" talking point/business unit foundation would be a good place to start.

Big Pharma does all the research - into new drugs.   Guess if folks don't mind just living with what is presently out there - pharmaceuticals wise - then we could control drug prices and they would stop doing research into new ones. 

Then there's the malpractice problem.   Patients carry healthcare insurance.  Doctors, hospitals, clinics, nurses, techs, makers of medical equipment, makers of pharmaceuticals, etc. etc. - all carry malpractice insurance.  That's a whopping lost of cost to pass through to the patients.    All the patients PAY FOR the insurance.  Only those who win a lawsuit get paid.  So millions file lawsuits hoping to cash in big.  This raises costs even more - which are passed through to the patients, driving up insurance premiums for BOTH providers and people.

When Texas passed a law disallowing any claims for "pain and suffering" over $200K, that reduced malpractice costs, and thus charges for services paid by patients. 

The lawmakers are mostly lawyers.  They are NOT MOTIVATED to cut business for lawyers. 

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8thdaypriest

IDEA:   Allow folks to group together in any way they like (beauticians, mechanics, restaurant owners of East Texas, small business owners of Texas,  seamstresses, whatever) to bargain for lower premiums.  Why should big outfits like Walmart and amazon get cheaper insurance because of their numbers, while owners of small businesses are left to pay the high premiums?   Just this, would allow more folks to become insured without completely emptying their wallets.   It would also allow folks who stay in jobs they don't like (just to have insurance coverage for their kids) to find other job they would like better, thus helping business.

IDEA:  Allow folks to buy insurance across state lines.  This would stimulate a lot of competition nationwide, which would drive prices down. 

IDEA:  Require ALL insurance carriers to cover the same minimum services - as listed by the federal government.  Extra services - like organ transplants, or high end cardiac care, etc. would cost extra (for that coverage).  The Feds would list things - minimum services to be covered, but still leave the individual insurance carriers to compete for business. 

IDEA:  Require ALL insurance carriers to cover the same minimum formulary (list of drugs) and listed by the federal government. (Medicare and the VA already have such a list.)   Policies covering an expanded formulary - more expensive brand name or more recently released drugs - would cost more

IDEA:  Require ALL insurance carriers to cover - regardless of prior existing conditions.  No physicals for the folks who apply. 

IDEA:  A three month waiting period (or more, maybe up to six months) before the insurance becomes "active".  This to rule out young people who simply sign up when they get injured or when they are diagnosed with something costly.  If a person already has insurance from an employer, that insurance would carry over until the new policy becomes active.

IDEA:  Allow tax exempt healthcare savings accounts.  The money from the accounts could be used ONLY for healthcare services as defined by the federal government.

IDEA:  Require all service providers - doctors, clinics, hospitals, etc. etc. to treat ALL insured persons, regardless of their insurance plan.  No more denying services to Medicare patients.

Providers of services would compete for those with the more costly insurance plans, by offering those costly services, but that competition would improve conditions for everyone.

That still leaves the truly poor, who can barely afford food, and shelter - who cannot afford ANY insurance.    Medicaid pays even less than Medicare.  It's no wonder service providers don't want to see them.  They are more likely to sue - looking for that jackpot.  They are less likely to follow instructions from their doctors.  They are more likely to be less educated, and to neglect their health - poor diet, drugs,  smoking, etc. etc.  

What to do with them??  Insuring them with ObamaCare drove up premiums for everyone.   It seems that poverty IS a "prior condition".   Medicaid is THE minimum brand of insurance coverage.  Who should qualify for that insurance?  At what cost?  How would the rest of the population pay the cost of that insurance?

Only the disabled?  Or mothers with more than 2 children who earn less than a certain amount?  

I definitely think biological fathers should be found and forced to pay for insurance for their kids (and for the mothers of those kids). 

There I go - rambling again.

 

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JoeMo
19 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I have never seen a truly "faith-based" NGO  If it is called NGO, then business units and profit margins are the only subject of importance; and THAT often has little or nothing to do with "health-care."

I disagree.  Organizations like ADRA, the Red Cross, Salvation Army, and World Vision are hardly money-grubbers. Yes - 10 - 15% of the money they take in goes to administrative costs and fund raising, but I'm okay with that.

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JoeMo
19 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

getting rid of Big Pharma as a "health-care" talking point/business unit foundation would be a good place to start. They have completely ruined healthcare. THAT ALONE would save taxpayers enough to be able to "allow" everyone to get good basic healthcare.

I am confident that Big Pharma adds their cost of advertising in the USA as a product cost.  I see so many Big Pharma commercials on TV that they must spend hundreds of millions (if not billions) of dollars on ads, the cost of which is passed on to USA consumers.  If such excessive advertising costs were disallowed, that would probably cut drug prices by a bunch.

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phkrause

And if the Government allowed competition, prices would also come down!! If I'm not mistaken 60 minutes did a documentary on this problem?????

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JoeMo
On 10/3/2018 at 7:25 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Then there's the malpractice problem...that's a whopping lost of cost to pass through to the patients

The doctors I hang out with tell me that the cost of malpractice insurance can cost 10 - 15%  of their annual revenue.  And why? Because of frivolous lawsuits.  If a baby is born with problems, it's the OB's fault for not detecting the problem pre-birth or because the doctor did something wrong during the baby's birth.  If someone quits breathing and/or suffers brain damage during surgery, it's because the anesthesiologist  was incompetent.  Even in cases the doctors win, it can cost them (more likely their insurance companies) a LOT of money, usually resulting in a rate hike.  They ought to pass a law that states if a malpractice suit is found to be frivolous, the plaintiff is required to pay all of the defendant's legal and court fees.  This does not apply if a plaintiff simply loses a case; but if it can be shown that the case is fraudulent.

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8thdaypriest
22 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I disagree.  Organizations like ADRA, the Red Cross, Salvation Army, and World Vision are hardly money-grubbers. Yes - 10 - 15% of the money they take in goes to administrative costs and fund raising, but I'm okay with that.

Mercy Ships, Operation Smile - there are many.

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8thdaypriest
16 hours ago, JoeMo said:

They ought to pass a law that states if a malpractice suit is found to be frivolous, the plaintiff is required to pay all of the defendant's legal and court fees

This IS the case in most developed countries.  Most firms just settle suits.  It's cheaper than going to court.   The patients PAY FOR those settlements.  It's all passed right on through to the patients. 

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8thdaypriest

Folks with enough money, frequently come down to the US to get surgeries done BECAUSE the wait for them is very long in Canada.  I used to perform anesthesia, and saw such cases often. 

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8thdaypriest

Trump seems to think that big Pharma is the biggest problem.  That's the aspect he is currently trying to change.  That and programs for drug addition prevention and rehab. 

The new policies have had some unintended consequences.   All the little old ladies who have taken 1 Xanax at bedtime for 20 years, have had to find other solutions,  cause their providers don't want to write triplicate prescriptions for it any longer. 

NO - I'm not one of those ladies.  Just heard about it from my hubby who is a PA for internal medicine and family practice.

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8thdaypriest

If we leave the private insurance companies in place, that does not solve the problem of what to do with those (US citizens) who cannot afford ANY health insurance. 

What should we (the taxpayers) provide for them?   And HOW?

Must they all work for big outfits like Walmart, or Amazon, or the military - just to get benefits for their families?  (No small business owners.)

There are folks with PRIOR CONDITIONS - who are younger than 65 (when Medicare kicks in).  The premium for the HIGH-RISK POOL, in Texas, in 2001 was $1200 a month.   It's much higher now.   

Then there are ILLEGAL aliens.   What sort of healthcare should be provided for them?  

 

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8thdaypriest
JoeMo
6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

All the little old ladies who have taken 1 Xanax at bedtime for 20 years, have had to find other solutions,

I had been taking a 10 mg Ambien every night before bed for 5 years, when my new Medicare doc refused to renew my prescription.  I was freaked.  I started taking magnesium glycinate and valerian; and I'm sleeping almost as good as I was with the Ambien.  The anticipation of the change was much worse than the experience.

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JoeMo
1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Then there are ILLEGAL aliens.   What sort of healthcare should be provided for them? 

Nothing but emergency services - REAL emergencies; not just for showing up at the ER something like the sniffles or a slight cough.

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JoeMo
24 minutes ago, RichardRuhling said:

MEDICAL CARE IS NOT HEALTHCARE ... HEALTHCARE is what we do for our selves.

Excellent point.

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