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Replacement Theology

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JoeMo

This is a question for people smarter than me.  I have read (on the internet, of course!) that SDAs are huge proponents of Replacement Theology (aka supercessionism), which states that Christians have replaced Jews as God's Chosen people; and all the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have been taken from the Jews and given to Christianity - all because the Jews killed Jesus.

Is this true?  If it is, how can they say that after reading Romans 11 and Hebrews?  How can they say that knowing that a Jew will one day rule the world?

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The Wanderer
59 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

This is a question for people smarter than me.  I have read (on the internet, of course!) that SDAs are huge proponents of Replacement Theology (aka supercessionism), which states that Christians have replaced Jews as God's Chosen people; and all the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have been taken from the Jews and given to Christianity - all because the Jews killed Jesus.

Is this true?  If it is, how can they say that after reading Romans 11 and Hebrews?  How can they say that knowing that a Jew will one day rule the world?

Well; I cannot accept any credit for being "smarter than you" but I do have an answer, of sorts. The Bible is clear that some Jews DID BELIEVE in Jesus, and some did not so they would also be included with all other believers from around the world:

Joh_8:31  Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh_11:45  Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
Joh_12:11  Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.
Act_14:1  And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.
Act_17:5  But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

The Bible also states quite literally that not everyone who is a Jew outwardly is NOT one inwardly:

 ولکن چنین نیست که کلام خدا ساقط شده باشد؛ زیرا همه که از اسرائیل‌اند، اسرائیلی نیستند،  (Rom 9:6, in Farsi) :D

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LifeHiscost

And what about this promise.

for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
 
God is Love!~Jesus!  :D

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JoeMo

Revelation seems to be clear that the 144,000 will be comprised of the nation of Israel - 12,000 from each tribe (Rev. &:1-8).  Does this include those Gentile Christians among spiritual Israel, or are they included in the great multitude? (Rev.7:9)

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The Wanderer
2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Revelation seems to be clear that the 144,000 will be comprised of the nation of Israel - 12,000 from each tribe (Rev. &:1-8).  Does this include those Gentile Christians among spiritual Israel, or are they included in the great multitude? (Rev.7:9)

your theory here does not take into account any of the scripture I posted above. There is nothing in scripture saying it HAS to be all, literal "Jews."

19 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

The Bible is clear that some Jews DID BELIEVE in Jesus, and some did not so they would also be included with all other believers from around the world:

Joh_8:31  Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh_11:45  Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
Joh_12:11  Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.
Act_14:1  And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.
Act_17:5  But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

The Bible also states quite literally that not everyone who is a Jew outwardly is NOT one inwardly:

 ولکن چنین نیست که کلام خدا ساقط شده باشد؛ زیرا همه که از اسرائیل‌اند، اسرائیلی نیستند،  (Rom 9:6, in Farsi) :D

 

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Lone Ranger

Whenever dealing with Revelation I always like to first of all establish whether the language is literal or symbolic, who says so, and based on what.

My second question is to be sure that I am not calling the language "literal" or "symbolic" simply to fit my pet theory (of which I have many.)

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phkrause
22 hours ago, JoeMo said:

This is a question for people smarter than me.  I have read (on the internet, of course!) that SDAs are huge proponents of Replacement Theology (aka supercessionism), which states that Christians have replaced Jews as God's Chosen people; and all the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have been taken from the Jews and given to Christianity - all because the Jews killed Jesus.

Is this true?  If it is, how can they say that after reading Romans 11 and Hebrews?  How can they say that knowing that a Jew will one day rule the world?

I've never heard of this?? Also having spent my youth years in a Jewish/Adventist church also never having heard this there!! Pretty sure that the "Chosen People of God" was never taken anyway from the Jews and given to anyone else!! The only thing that I know is that Jesus himself started christian church, I guess technically his apostles and followers were called Christians and the name stuck through the years!!

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The Wanderer
7 minutes ago, phkrause said:

I've never heard of this?? Also having spent my youth years in a Jewish/Adventist church also never having heard this there!! Pretty sure that the "Chosen People of God" was never taken anyway from the Jews and given to anyone else!! The only thing that I know is that Jesus himself started christian church, I guess technically his apostles and followers were called Christians and the name stuck through the years!!

Christians, have not "replaced Jews" for the simple reason that the Bible tells us that some Gentiles and Jews were "Messianic" and believed in Jesus. I posted those scriptures above; but there are many more that also support the idea that "not all who are a Jew outwardly are Jewish inwardly." (see Rom 9:6)

"a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed" (Acts 14:1)

Quote

And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.(Acts 11:26)

could also be rendered, "Messiah people" or, as in other translations, "Christians." I think the name "Christianoi" was applied to Gentile believers by Gentile nonbelievers. Why? Because Jewish believers would have designated their Gentile brothers in faith by the same term they used for themselves, "people belonging to the Way" (see Act_9:2); while the Jewish nonbelievers of Antioch wouldn't have thought enough about Gentile believers in Yeshua to have given them a special name. Probably the Gentiles of Antioch kept hearing about Christos ("Christ"); and being unacquainted with the Jewish notion of "Messiah" (see Act_11:20-23, Mat_1:1), they designated Yeshua's followers by what they supposed was their leader's name. In all likelihood the term was deprecatory, like "Moonies" in referring to the disciples of Sun Myung Moon. But in time Jewish and Gentile believers in Yeshua learned to bear proudly the name that began as an epithet (1Pe_4:16; see also Act_26:28). The name nonbelieving Jews gave to Jewish believers was "Natzratim" or "Notzrim" ("Nazarenes"), that is, followers of the man from Natzeret ("Nazareth"); the word in modern Hebrew for "Christians" remains "Notzrim" (see Act_24:5, Mat_2:23).

Should a Jew who has put his trust in Yeshua as the Messiah call himself a Christian today? Most people, Jews and Christians alike, would answer in the affirmative on the ground that the very definition of "Christian" is "one who believes in Jesus Christ," regardless of whether his family background is Jewish, Christian, Moslem, pagan or something else. But many Jewish believers disagree; in fact, the relatively small community of Jews who believe in Yeshua is split into two camps, the Messianic Jews (I use this term here in a narrower sense than usual) and the Hebrew Christians.

A Hebrew Christian might say, "I call myself a Christian because I have come to believe in Jesus Christ, my Savior and my Lord; and my first loyalty must be to him and to his Church, the community of the saved.

Nevertheless, I was born a Jew and will die a Jew, so I speak of myself as not just a Christian but as a Hebrew Christian, in order to testify to all, nonbelieving Jews and Gentile Christians alike, that I continue to identify with my Jewish brothers, including those who do not share my faith." A Messianic Jew might say, "I call myself Messianic for the same reason that my Hebrew Christian friend calls himself Christian, namely, to make it clear that I follow Yeshua the Messiah, my Savior and my Lord, and identify with his Body, the Messianic Community, which he calls the Church. I prefer the word 'Messianic' because it comes from 'Messiah,' which has meaning to Jews; whereas the words 'Christ' and 'Christian' are not only alien to Jewish culture and religion but represent the banner under which the Jewish people experienced centuries of discrimination, persecution and murder. And although 'Hebrew' may have had an elegant ring in the nineteenth century, today it sounds quaint-no Jew today calls himself a 'Hebrew,' and neither do I."

To this the Hebrew Christian could reply, "You're fooling yourself. You think your 'Messianic' terminology will win Jews to Jesus, but they will simply think you are devious. As soon as they find out that your 'Yeshua' is Jesus and that to be 'Messianic' is to be a Christian, they will drop you like a hot potato. Meanwhile, you are alienating your Gentile Christian brothers in the Lord, who think you are a coward and not straightforwardly standing up for Christ and the Gospel."

And the Messianic Jew might return, "Untrue! I tell one and all that I am part of the Messiah's Body, consisting of all believers in Yeshua, Jewish and Gentile. In fact, it is precisely because I am zealous for the Gospel that I will not make words with a negative valence for Jews a barrier to their accepting its truth. Further, if I say I am a Christian they will, first, think I have conformed myself to the image of Gentile Christians they have in their head, and, second, think I have abandoned Judaism and the Jewish people. But I have done neither: accepting Yeshua the Jewish Messiah is the most Jewish thing a Jew can do, and I am committed to expressing my love for him in a Jewish way, within the framework of Judaism-except where Judaism specifically takes a stand against him and against the New Testament."

The Hebrew Christian: "But if you say you have not abandoned Judaism, do you accept the authority of the rabbis, their interpretation of Jewish law?

A Christian is free from the details of Judaism as the rabbis expound it. If you identify with Judaism and not with Christianity you are abandoning Christ, and your professed faith is empty." The Messianic Jew: "No, I identify with Judaism and the Torah, but not as interpreted by rabbis who do not accept Yeshua as the Messiah, even though I think much that they have said is true and should be evaluated on its merits, not discarded en bloc. What I uphold is the Torah as expounded by Yeshua the Messiah (see Mat_5:17-20, 1Co_9:21, Gal_6:2)."
To which the Hebrew Christian would reply that he too accepts the Law of Christ as authoritative. And so the discussion would go on; for more see my book Messianic Jewish Manifesto.

Though the single word "Christian" is too fragile a peg on which to hang a debate between competing ideologies, each of which can rightly claim to bring out elements of truth, it should not be surprising that the word serves exactly that function-names and slogans have always focused and energized controversies. (taken from New Testament Jewish Bible Commentary, as found in Esword Bible software).

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The Wanderer
3 hours ago, Lone Ranger said:

Whenever dealing with Revelation I always like to first of all establish whether the language is literal or symbolic, who says so, and based on what.

another scripture passage that seems to fit with the topic at hand is found in Gal chapter 3

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounteda to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

a accounted: or, imputed
The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 (electronic ed. of the 1769 edition of the 1611 Authorized Version.) (Ga 3:6-9). Bellingham WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

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JoeMo
20 hours ago, phkrause said:

I've never heard of this?? Also having spent my youth years in a Jewish/Adventist church also never having heard this there!! Pretty sure that the "Chosen People of God" was never taken anyway from the Jews and given to anyone else!! The only thing that I know is that Jesus himself started christian church, I guess technically his apostles and followers were called Christians and the name stuck through the years!!

I had never heard it stated quite that way before, but I do remember hearing sermons in my SDA Church of 35 years ago about the promises to Israel now being for Christians.  Almost all the grass roots SDA's I know support Judaism.  I have been having informal impromptu Bible studies with my Orthodox Jewish next-door neighbor for 6 months now.  We have both benefited from it.

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JoeMo

Don't know how valid it is, but this is one of the websites claiming SDA's embrace replacement theology:

https://amos37.com/replacement-denominations/

Here is an older thread from the Seventh Day Adventist forum where many people are discussing this - some strong proponents of replacement theology:

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TLJTGQHVLUKEQF9MG

Here is a paper by the BRI, which I infer to support replacement theology:

https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/sites/default/files/pdf/Role of Israel_0.pdf

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Lone Ranger

From my time in SDA  it seems that most Adventists believe or buy into Replacement Theology in one form or another and/or to a greater or lesser degree.

However, most would deny adherence to RT, at the same time affirming the points thereof. IOW, they believe it, but don't know they believe it.

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APL

The term Replacement Theology is coined by those that do not want to see the truth of who a real Jew is. 

Romans 2:24-29

(24) As it is written: "God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

(25) Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.

(26) If those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?

(27) The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

(28) A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.

(29) No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.

 

So it is not "replacement theology", but a denial of the truth. The true Christian is the true Jew. 

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Lone Ranger

I would be reluctant to assign motive based on a differing viewpoint.

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JoeMo

EGW had a vision of people on the path to heaven.  in summary, the ones that made it were 144,000 Adventists.  This is a prime example of replacement theology in Adventism.  If you believe all of EGW's visions were accurate, then you are a proponent of replacement theology.

3 hours ago, APL said:

Romans 2:24-29

(24) As it is written: "God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

(25) Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.

(26) If those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?

(27) The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

(28) A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.

(29) No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.

So it is not "replacement theology", but a denial of the truth. The true Christian is the true Jew.

As long as we're quoting from Romans, let's consider the following:

"I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” (Rom. 11:1-4)

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! "(Rom. 11:11-12)

"If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either." (Rom. 11:17-21)

3 hours ago, APL said:

The true Christian is the true Jew.

Incorrect.  A true Jew is a descendant of Judah.  A true Christian is a spiritual Jew.

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JoeMo
44 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

EGW had a vision of people on the path to heaven.  in summary, the ones that made it were 144,000 Adventists.

I tried to locate the statement in EGW's writings.  I couldn't see where she said they were all Adventists.  The gist of her writings and the apparent position of the church is they are the saved of all ages - those who spent their lives living for and witnessing about Jesus.  It is fairly easy to infer that this means Christians.  Since - according to many SDA's, Sabbath will be the end-time issue - that pretty much limits it to SDA's and other Sabbath-keeping Christians, although I could find nothing explicit about the church saying that.

Some SDA's are Replacement theology proponents.  Just look at APL's post above.

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8thdaypriest

There is ONLY ONE TREE - in Romans Cpt 11.  It's an OLIVE TREE.  God called Israel's name "Green Olive Tree" in Jeremiah.

The TREE is Israel.

The "root" of that tree is holy - so we know the root is Christ.

Branches were "broken off" from that tree - for unbelief.  Some during the wilderness wandering.  Some at the time Assyria destroyed the 10 tribes, 

- and some when they would not believe in Jesus Christ (who gave them every miracle as evidence of who He was/is). 

Israel remained.  Only branches were broken off. 

New branches were grafted in (Gentiles coming to faith).   Those Gentile believers were every bit part of "the tree" - and still are.

The broken off branches could be grafted in again - IF they came to believe.  Most did not.  Some did (like Saul of Tarsus). 

There is ONLY ONE ISRAEL - just like there's ONLY ONE TREE.  

Whatever Jews call themselves,  if they do not believe in Jesus Christ as their Messiah, then they are NOT living branches of THE TREE - NOT God's Israel. 

The promises are for Israel - for the living Olive Tree - NOT for broken off branches. 

"IF you are Christ's, then you ARE Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promises."  Galatians 3:29

IF you are NOT Christ's, then you ARE NOT Abraham's seed, and NOT HEIRS according to the promises.

Most here do not share my belief that those who died in various degrees of ignorance, will be raised at the 8th millennium as "the rest of the dead" to learn of Christ and then CHOOSE whether to serve Him as king.  I believe all those Jews who, because of their culture and education, did not learn the truth of Christ, will be raised at the 8th Day, to learn of Him.  At that time, they will have the opportunity to be "grafted in again" - into the ONE TREE that is ISRAEL. 

 

 

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8thdaypriest

If the ONE TREE - ISRAEL - has believing Gentile branches along with believing Jewish branches, then the 144,000 (all from Israel) could be of non-Hebrew as well as Hebrew origin. 

The 144,000 will be "able to stand" at "that day".   What DAY is that?  It's the Second Coming.  Look at the preceding verses.

Revelation 6:14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

The full "wrath" is poured out - as the 7 last plagues (16:1).   They are poured out on the DAY that Christ returns, as soon as He has removed His people. 

Whether the 144,000 are those who live through to the end, or those resurrected to everlasting life at His return - both - will "stand" at that day, while the wicked are hiding in caves and crying for the rocks to cover them. 

The New Jerusalem has 12 gates and 12 foundations.  The 12 gates are named for the tribes of Israel, and the 12 foundations are named for the 12 disciples.  Kinda combines Old Testament era with New Testament era saints. 12 x 12 = 144,000.   No.  I don't believe the #144,000 is a literal number.  It's symbolic.  Represents all those who have served Christ. 

The 144,000 are call "first fruits".  They will come first.  The "great multitude" will come later.  

The "great multitude" - I believe - will be "harvested" during the 8th millennium, from "the rest of the dead".   They "come out of the great tribulation" in the sense that they suffered with all the rest of mankind, during this terrible 6000 years of earth's history.   This earth's history - under Satan's domination - IS "the great tribulation".  

 

 

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APL
2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Incorrect.  A true Jew is a descendant of Judah.  A true Christian is a spiritual Jew.

Thank you for giving an example of what I said.   Again:

Romans 2:28-29

(28) A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.

(29) No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.

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Kevin H

One of Satan's favorite methods is to take a truth, divide it in half, and deceive some people with the one portion of the truth and to those who see the error in that portion of the truth to embrace the other portion of the truth.

We Seventh-day Adventists see that the view of the dispensationalists is wrong. That view is the idea that all the prophecies to the Jews in the land need to be fulfilled in exact detail and therefore the church is in the way. Thus theThy teach that the church needs to be raptured away then God will once again use the Jews in the land and fulfill every minor point of prophecies that were not fulfilled back then.

Sadly in seeing that error, Satan has encouraged us to embrace replacement theology. The idea that God is through with the Jew and is now using the church to fulfill the prophecies. (and for the Bible texts that you pointed out, replacement theology says that they apply to Jews who become converts to Christianity.)

The Bible sees prophecies as conditional to our response. And the Bible offers two possible ways how God is willing to use the Jews.

In one possibility you start with the land. We tend to read these in a vacuum and miss the historical setting. That piece of property was THE major intersection between the great trade routes between Europe, Africa and Asia. It was quite literally the center of the ancient world. While I Canaanites could have been blessed by the tolls of the caravans, they picked up a couple of very harmful ideas. One was in their worship they believed that they needed to help out the gods of life to defeat the gods of death. (That property was also where the weather patterns of Europe, Asia, Africa and the Arabian Desert also happened to meet.). They believed that this was done by uniting the life forces: They would on the important times in the agricultural cycle (which were the same as what we were to find later as the feasts of the land) they would wear clothing of mixed textures, eat breads of mixed grains, and everyone have sex with each other, man, women, children and animals.

This depravity caused other depravities, including the idea that if they raped someone that they were stealing some of their victim's life force, and if they were to rape them to death that they would get all their life force. That meant that some of the food that would have grown in their victim's garden will now grow in their garden. Some of the animals that would have been born in their victims animals will now be born to their animals, some of the children that would have been born to their victim's wife will now be born to their wife.

This made the land a very dangerous place, but yet it was again the center of the ancient world. In giving this land to the Hebrews, world commerce would improve because this great intersection would no longer be dangerous. The Hebrews could get their revenue from the tolls and trust in God for the weather issues. Meanwhile the trade caravans would travel the world and talk about the people in that intersection and their God and religion of simply trusting that God instead of trying to appease the gods or help them out. This would have carried the gospel to the whole world and God's kingdom would have been set up.

Now if the Hebrews were not faithful God would bring them curses to get their attention and encourage repentance. But if they all failed then they would go into exile where they were to talk about God's faithfulness and their unfaithfulness, and if faithful the messiah would come to take them home.

We find the Assyrian and Babylonian exile, it did not end as predicted but they had a lackluster second exodus back for another 70 weeks of years of God wanting to use them in the land to share the gospel. But they were so afraid of paganism that they kept to themselves, and Jesus was not accepted by the people as a whole, so Jesus again predicted exile theology, going into all the world and sharing about their unfaithfulness but God's faithfulness and wait for the messiah to come and take us home. God can use both the Jews and the grafted in gentiles in this situation.

As for the way of using the land.... that piece of property is no longer the center of the world. No longer where the great caravans need to go through and learn from the people and go and tell others about these people, their religion and their God. Shipping and air cargo has made the way God wanted to use the land back then obsolete, and the only way to use is us going into all the world spreading the gospel.

None of us have all the truth. The only time we had full gospel was in the Lord Jesus Christ himself. Once you got to his disciples you got different aspects of the truth that they saw clearer than others. God's people consists of Jews and Gentiles who are trusting in God and sharing what God means to us.

 

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JoeMo
7 hours ago, Kevin H said:

None of us have all the truth. The only time we had full gospel was in the Lord Jesus Christ himself. Once you got to his disciples you got different aspects of the truth that they saw clearer than others. God's people consists of Jews and Gentiles who are trusting in God and sharing what God means to us.

👍

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The Wanderer
On 10/12/2018 at 9:53 PM, JoeMo said:

I tried to locate the statement in EGW's writings.  I couldn't see where she said they were all Adventists.  The gist of her writings and the apparent position of the church is they are the saved of all ages - those who spent their lives living for and witnessing about Jesus.  It is fairly easy to infer that this means Christians.  Since - according to many SDA's, Sabbath will be the end-time issue - that pretty much limits it to SDA's and other Sabbath-keeping Christians, although I could find nothing explicit about the church saying that.

Some SDA's are Replacement theology proponents.  Just look at APL's post above.

Is it really "replacement theology" when the Bible does say that those who "believe and have faith, will inherit the same things as "the [ literal ] children of Abraham? I am also wondering if you are trying to say "replacement theology" [ so-called] is "bad?"

Also; I think I found the EGW passage you were wondering about??
 

Quote

 

Traveling the Narrow Way

While at Battle Creek, Michigan, in August, 1868, I dreamed of being with a large body of people. A portion of this assembly started out prepared to journey. We had heavily loaded wagons. As we journeyed, the road seemed to ascend. On one side of this road was a deep precipice; on the other was a high, smooth, white wall. . . . {CET 179.1}   

As we journeyed on, the road grew narrower and steeper. In some places it seemed so very narrow that we concluded that we could no longer travel with the loaded wagons. We then loosed them from the horses, took a portion of the luggage from the wagons and placed it upon the horses, and journeyed on horseback. {CET 179.2}   

As we progressed, the path still continued to grow narrow. We were obliged to press close to the wall, to save ourselves from falling off the narrow road down the steep precipice. As we did this, the luggage on the horses pressed against the wall, and caused us to sway toward the precipice. We feared that we should fall, and be dashed in pieces on the rocks. We then cut the luggage from the horses, and it fell over the precipice. We continued on horseback, greatly fearing, as we came to the narrower places in the road, that we should lose our balance and fall. At such times, a hand seemed to take the bridle, and guide us over the perilous way. {CET 179.3}       

As the path grew more narrow, we decided that we could no longer go with safety on horseback, and we left the horses and went on foot, in single file, one following in the footsteps of another. At this point small cords were let down from the top of the pure white wall; these we eagerly grasped, to aid us in keeping our balance upon the path. As we traveled, the cord moved along with us. The path finally became so narrow that we concluded that we could travel more safely without our shoes; so we slipped them from our feet, and went on some distance without them. Soon it was decided that we could travel more safely without our stockings; these were removed, and we journeyed on with bare feet. {CET 180.1}   

We then thought of those who had not accustomed themselves to privations and hardships. Where were such now? They were not in the company. At every change, some were left behind, and those only remained who had accustomed themselves to endure hardships. The privations of the way only made these more eager to press on to the end. {CET 181.1}   

Our danger of falling from the pathway increased. We pressed close to the white wall, yet could not place our feet fully upon the path; for it was too narrow. We then suspended nearly our whole weight upon the cords, exclaiming: "We have hold from above! We have hold from above!" The same words were uttered by all the company in the narrow pathway. {CET 181.2}   

As we heard the sounds of mirth and revelry that seemed to come from the abyss below, we shuddered. We heard the profane oath, the vulgar jest, and low, vile songs. We heard the war song and the dance song. We heard instrumental music, and loud laughter, mingled with cursing and cries of anguish and bitter wailing, and were more anxious than ever to keep upon the narrow, difficult pathway. Much of the time we were compelled to suspend our whole weight upon the cords, which increased in size as we progressed. {CET 182.1}    

I noticed that the beautiful white wall was stained with blood. It caused a feeling of regret to see the wall thus stained. This feeling, however, lasted but for a moment, as I soon thought that it was all as it should be. Those who are following after will know that others have passed the narrow, difficult way before them, and will conclude that if others were able to pursue their onward course, they can do the same. And as the blood shall be pressed from their aching feet, they will not faint with discouragement; but seeing the blood upon the wall, they will know that others have endured the same pain. {CET 182.2}   

At length we came to a large chasm, at which our path ended. There was nothing now to guide the feet, nothing upon which to rest them. Our whole reliance must be upon the cords, which had increased in size, until they were as large as our bodies. Here we were for a time thrown into perplexity and distress. We inquired in fearful whispers, "To what is the cord attached?" My husband was just before me. Large drops of sweat were falling from his brow, the veins in his neck and temples were increased to double their usual size, and suppressed, agonizing groans came from his lips. The sweat was dropping from my face, and I felt such anguish as I had never felt before. A fearful struggle was before us. Should we fail here, all the difficulties of our journey had been experienced for nought. {CET 183.1}       

Before us, on the other side of the chasm, was a beautiful field of green grass, about six inches high. I could not see the sun, but bright soft beams of light, resembling fine gold and silver, were resting upon this field. Nothing I had seen upon earth could compare in beauty and glory with this field. But could we succeed in reaching it? was the anxious inquiry. Should the cord break, we must perish. Again, in whispered anguish, the words were breathed, "What holds the cord?" {CET 183.2}  

For a moment we hesitated to venture. Then we exclaimed: "Our only hope is to trust wholly to the cord. It has been our dependence all the difficult way. It will not fail us now." Still we were hesitating and distressed. The words were then spoken: "God holds the cord. We need not fear." These words were then repeated by those behind us, accompanied with: "He will not fail us now. He has brought us thus far in safety." {CET 184.1}       

My husband then swung himself over the fearful abyss into the beautiful field beyond. I immediately followed. And oh, what a sense of relief and gratitude to God we felt! I heard voices raised in triumphant praise to God. I was happy, perfectly happy. {CET 184.2}    

I awoke, and found that from the anxiety I had experienced in passing over the difficult route, every nerve in my body seemed to be in a tremor. This dream needs no comment. It made such an impression upon my mind that probably every item in it will be vivid before me while my memory shall continue. {CET 184.3} 

 

 

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The Wanderer
On 10/13/2018 at 12:37 AM, Kevin H said:

One of Satan's favorite methods is to take a truth, divide it in half, and deceive some people with the one portion of the truth and to those who see the error in that portion of the truth to embrace the other portion of the truth.

Never a truer word spoken on the forum! I can think of several topics here that it could apply to! Thank you!

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The Wanderer
On 10/12/2018 at 11:04 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

If the ONE TREE - ISRAEL - has believing Gentile branches along with believing Jewish branches, then the 144,000 (all from Israel) could be of non-Hebrew as well as Hebrew origin.

YES! And that means there IS hope for everybody!!

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JoeMo
16 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Is it really "replacement theology" when the Bible does say that those who "believe and have faith, will inherit the same things as "the [ literal ] children of Abraham? I am also wondering if you are trying to say "replacement theology" [ so-called] is "bad?"

Also; I think I found the EGW passage you were wondering about??
 

 

Yup, that's the passage!  Thanks.

As far as replacement theology goes, what you said is NOT replacement theology, because you are including ethnic believing Israelites with spiritual Jews (born-again Christians).  Replacement theology says that the Church has replaced the Jews as the Chosen people; and the unconditional promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are null and void; and now belong to the Christian church.  Such a thing would dishonor God and make Him a liar.  God doesn't want to be called a liar.

"So the Lord said to him, “Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon.” Abram brought all these to him, cut them in two and arranged the halves opposite each other; the birds, however, he did not cut in half. Then birds of prey came down on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away. As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. Then the Lord said to him, “Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.” When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces. On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi[e] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates—  the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.” (Gen. 15:9-21)

In other words, God is saying through this covenant that He would rather kill Himself than break this Covenant.  He was the flaming pot passing between the pieces of slaughtered animals, indicating that this would be His fate if He broke that Covenant.

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