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Gregory Matthews

SDA RN loses

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Gregory Matthews

See:

https://www.healthleadersmedia.com/nursing/hospital-prevails-nurses-eeoc-backed-religious-discrimination-suit-appeal

My personal opinion:

1) The part of the decision that held that the hospital did not have to hire the RN for that specific position was correct and in accord with the law.

2)  The part of the decison that held that the hospital did not have to consider her for another position was not in accord with the statute.

3)  Well, the Court has ruled, and  on the level of that Court's authority, precedence has been set.   SDAs may now be worse for this case.

 

 

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rudywoofs (Pam)

this is the first time I've heard of an SDA healthcare provider demanding accommodation so s/he didn't have to work on Friday nights or Saturdays in a medical center...  

Not sure I'd want someone like that to take care of me or my family... sounds like this less-than-dedicated RN was more concerned with her own wants, rather than providing expedient care for patients.  Good riddance.  Glad she's just doing home health care now.  

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Lone Ranger
4 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

this is the first time I've heard of an SDA healthcare provider demanding accommodation so s/he didn't have to work on Friday nights or Saturdays in a medical center...  

Not sure I'd want someone like that to take care of me or my family... sounds like this less-than-dedicated RN was more concerned with her own wants, rather than providing expedient care for patients.  Good riddance.  Glad she's just doing home health care now.  

Bit harsh, IMO. Not the sort of reply I would have predicted from this poster.:(

In the first place, said RN wants to follow his/her conscience, which, as they understand the Bible/God's leading includes not working on their Sabbath. This is allowed by US law and the much-touted US Constitution.

Second, the health care system in the US is BIG BUSINESS. It cares neither for health nor care, only PROFITS. So when a conscientious Sabbath-keeper wants to opt-out of the machinations that feed in humans and spits out money, I would say pray for that person and support them 100%. Anything less is persecution.

This is the second person I have heard of doing this. The first was a personal friend of the family, who worked for an SDA INSTITUTION, and had to SUE THE CHURCH TO GET HER SABBATHS OFF!!!!!!

DOES NOBODY SEE THE SICK IRONY HERE!!!

(Sorry, lost me 'ed there for a minute.  Just patting my hair back down. :blush:)

This was one of the main contributors to my finally leaving the church.

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Gail

It’s unfortunate that health care is big business. That kinda takes the care out of the equation, doesn’t it? It’s kinda the difference between a home-cooked meal and fast food.

 In the sphere of paperwork and obligatory rounds of duties I understand that it can be tempting to forget human connection and personal service. But if I was a patient, moral support and personal touch would get me through a crisis even unto dying. What the feeling of being processed like a wiener does for healing I can’t imagine.

How can we work out the spirit vs the letter in a case like this?

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B/W Photodude
6 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

this is the first time I've heard of an SDA healthcare provider demanding accommodation so s/he didn't have to work on Friday nights or Saturdays in a medical center...  

 

Good thing Jesus didn't demand His Sabbaths off instead of healing the sick and ministering to the people. As I recall, it was the Pharisees that became very indignant that He not take a break from healing on the Sabbath. So, perhaps this nurse doesn't really understand the theology of caring even on the Sabbath day.

What really sticks out about it all is that is that she knew what the job requirements were before applying for the job. And then makes a court case out of not getting her way. Never mind that her coworkers were going to have to pick up her Sabbaths off to cover for her. Perhaps they would not mind then maybe they would. This could also be very dangerous professionally for someone to demand and receive those kind of special favors. Perhaps this nurse was unaware of workplace bullying and sabotage which also places innocent patients at the mercy of workplace drama. (Been there and seen it!)

What really surprises me is that the church via the General Conference supported her! So, what are they going to do at a SDA healthcare facility like Loma Linda if all the SDA nurses demanded their Sabbaths off? I used to work there and knew that it simply was a requirement that you were going to work every other Sabbath in the ICUs. Sick people don't get off their ventilators and other life support equipment just because it was the Sabbath. Would have been nice if everyone go up and went home on Friday and showed up at the hospital on Monday to resume their illness.

This really leaves a bad feeling about how the sick are cared for and/or how the presence of sick people are envisioned in a theological sense. I think you can even be selfish when it comes to the practice of your religion. "My Sabbaths are more important than you!" My personal impression of this is that it was all in very bad taste.

 

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bonnie

Because North Memorial has many SDA employees  I believe SDA's will be worse off.

What would have been the backlash of a ruling in the favor of the nurse on the many other SDA employees that work Fri and Sat that would probably rather be with family in church. We have had members in our small church as DR's and other crucial medical personnel of North Memorial. In times past there have been times they have been called out of church service because they were needed, Sabbaths they were required to work.  They of course knew that ahead of time. Should all the SDA employees of North Memorial be given sabbath off?  Should a SDA, knowing Sabbath is a required work day at times apply anyway and then sue when not granted their demands? Should they accept the position and then declare not available fri night or sat and sue?

My husband has been a patient at North Memorial many times. He had SDA nurses and techs on sabbath seeing to his needs. I am thankful they were there

Yes, it is very likely the next SDA applicant will be looked at a little differently

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Gregory Matthews

Many years ago, as a congregational pastor, I had a female nurse who would not work on the Sabbath, in the hospital.  The hospital accommodated her wishes, but in a manner that reduced her salary.  She was satisfied with that.

As a former Army chaplain, I dwelt three times, in three different locations,  with a SDA nurse who demanded Sabbaths off.  In the 3rd situation she was up on criminal charges for a refusal to obey a lawful order.  I intervened   on a higher level and recommended that she be given an honorable discharge.    That was done.  The criminal proceedings stopped and she was honorably discharged.

As a result, she told she told all of the SDAs who would listen to her that I was an agent of Satan for not supporting her religious rights to remain in the Army as she pleased.

NOTE:  to our guests who may be reading this:  The majority of SDAs, who work in a clinical field, are willing to regularly work in their field on the Sabbath.

 

 

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The Wanderer
7 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

What really surprises me is that the church via the General Conference supported her!

I agree; their actions in this and similar cases has nothing to do with "keeping the Sabbath;" or even in "defending" the Sabbath. Its actually the opposite in results, and nowhere in scripture can such a mandate be found. NOT one verse or even a part of.

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The Wanderer
10 hours ago, Lone Ranger said:

In the first place, said RN wants to follow his/her conscience,

BUT thats not really what this RN was doing. The RN in question "DEMANDED" from the employer, something that has no basis in scripture; and in doing so, completely misrepresented what the Church teaches about the Sabbath. 

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The Wanderer
1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

As a result, she told she told all of the SDAs who would listen to her that I was an agent of Satan for not supporting her religious rights to remain in the Army as she pleased.

 

WOW, so you actually helped her and she still had to call you an "agent of Satan?" Kinda shows where this person was coming from and why the Army was wise in how they treated the situation. This kind of thing is oft repeated and is always a terrible witness for Jesus and the Sabbath. Some I have known in medical/nursing positions tried to buy their way to heaven with Adventist Indulgences by taking whatever money they "would have earned" on "Sabbath time" and donating it to a charity; that in all likelihood did their good "work" on Sabbath anyways. There is no end to this Pandora's box, yet so many catapult their legalism at the rest of us, and then we all pay one way or the other for their lousy examples.

I watched a movie recently where some pilgrims were on their way to North America to establish a colony. Near the end of their voyage; a storm hit the ship hard, and it sprung a leak. The Captain figured they had about 3 hours before the ship would be submerged. And then the yelling match started with one side saying "We can't "work" on the Sabbath," and of course the others were concerned because if they didn't do the needed repairs to the ship; they would all be lost. The "sabbath-keeper" side were saying: "God is testing us," and the other side said: "God is giving us the opportunity!"  Can you guess how that ended? 

 

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rudywoofs (Pam)
10 hours ago, Lone Ranger said:

Bit harsh, IMO. Not the sort of reply I would have predicted from this poster.:(

In a healthcare setting, the patients should be the top priority — *not* the wishes of a nurse who apparently doesn't understand the difference between the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law.  The world doesn't stop at sundown on Fridays.   

That said, the RN in question is from Africa.  From what I've observed, there can be great cultural differences in the perceptions of African (and other cultures) as it relates to questions of faith and other matters.

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The Wanderer
49 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

In a healthcare setting, the patients should be the top priority — *not* the wishes of a nurse who apparently doesn't understand the difference between the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law.  The world doesn't stop at sundown on Fridays.   

That said, the RN in question is from Africa.  From what I've observed, there can be great cultural differences in the perceptions of African (and other cultures) as it relates to questions of faith and other matters.

Tru...in simple language, we do not have a right to waltz into an employer and start demanding away as if we own the place, just because of a belief in Sabbath. All the lawsuits for hundreds of thousands of dollars, that some [sabbath keepers] have "won" over this is sickening example.

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Gregory Matthews

One more comment on the Army nurse whom I had to deal with in three different locations:

In the 3rd location she took a position that she had not taken before.  If a physician ordered a medication for a hospitalized patient, she would sometimes advise the patient of their right to refuse the medication and that they should ask her to pray for God to heal them without the medication.

 

NOTE:  To all guests reading this post, the position that this person took was not what the majority of SDA clinical providers would take while working in a hospital.

 

 

 

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The Wanderer
On 11/29/2018 at 12:03 PM, Gail said:

It’s unfortunate that health care is big business.

so true

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Narcah

I thought Adventists became health care professionals so they could work on Sabbath?

 

(I’m being sarcastic of course...)

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Gregory Matthews

To our guests who may be reading this thread:

SDAs do not prohibit all work on the Sabbath.  They acknowledge that there is critical work that needs to  be done on the Sabbath day. An example of this would include medical care.   The SDA Church does not publish a set of rules as to what is acceptable for Sabbath work and what is not.  Rather, this is left up to the individual and their relation to God.  As a result, within the SDA membership, there exists a range of practice as to what is acceptable and what is not.

 

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B/W Photodude
45 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

They acknowledge that there is critical work that needs to  be done on the Sabbath day. AN example of this would include medical care.   The SDA Church does not Publish a set of rules as to what is acceptable for Sabbath work and what is not.

There are people who, being jealous of those who do work on the Sabbath, claim that those who work on the Sabbath should not get paid for their labor. Rumors along these lines use to ripple thru the Loma LInda Univ Medical Center that the admins were going to stop paying for work on the Sabbath and consider it to be a donation! People will believe anything sometimes and not consider how fast the government would "stomp" on an organization for attempting such a move! So, it never happened that I am aware of.

ML Andreasen had his pension cancelled for his stand on QOD. When he was forced to go to public welfare, the State of California sent the church a letter saying they would be glad to pay his pension, but then they were going to come after the church. His pension got restored. That one shocked me that an organization (a church at that!) would take away a senior citizen's pension after he had retired! So, sometimes you don't want to mess with the government when it comes to money issues.

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Gail
On 11/29/2018 at 9:24 PM, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

In a healthcare setting, the patients should be the top priority — *not* the wishes of a nurse who apparently doesn't understand the difference between the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law.  The world doesn't stop at sundown on Fridays.   

That said, the RN in question is from Africa.  From what I've observed, there can be great cultural differences in the perceptions of African (and other cultures) as it relates to questions of faith and other matters.

Good point!

And God’s care doesn’t stop during the Sabbath. Performing acts of mercy and doing good on the Sabbath are part of the spirit of the commandment.

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The Wanderer
18 minutes ago, Gail said:

Good point!

And God’s care doesn’t stop during the Sabbath. Performing acts of mercy and doing good on the Sabbath are part of the spirit of the commandment.

Thats how its SUPPOSED to be.  I remember one couple who after a "sabbath lunch" proudly proclaimed as we were all sitting around pretending to be religious on the soft cushiony chairs after acting like a bunch of starving gluttons at the dinner table; that "We wash the dishes on Sabbath; BUT we don't dry them on Sabbath." I find that too often, families or individuals who are ill and cannot make it to church end up sitting alone the whole time, and it is just UN-Sabbath to them. BTW that same family I mentioned at the beginning of this post, well we all went for a walk, a "sabbath walk" on a nice little nature trail....I noticed the squirrels and birds did not seem to be aware it was Sabbath. Well; it was a hot summer day; and since we didnt have to "dry the dishes" we had time for our "sabbath" walk. At the end of the trail; where two forks went in different directions, we chose to take the one to the left, and just down that left fork was a man with one of those little portable ice-cream cart. We all forgot that we still needed water to drink; even though it was Sabbath; and instantly, all the kids in our group started jumping up and down in excitement, figuring they were about to get a "sabbath" treat. And thats when the fighting began. Two sides, of all the adults, literally yelling at one another about "do we buy the kids an ice cream, or not?"  The guy with the ice cream cart just stood there dumbfounded, and "thankfully" "the truth" prevailed and no one got an ice cream cone or anything else to drink.

But at least we didnt have to dry the dishes. "Thank you Jesus."

So that Sabbath; I and my children got nothing to drink, and I "returned" the money I would have earned that day in my nursing job to a charity; and so I successfully paid my Adventist Indulegence Tax. At least I got that done! GUILT placated! Or, was it? And I only had to borrow $40 from someone later in the week for gas in the car to get to work, because I was "only" missing a days pay. BUT I was only earning a part-time wage.

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LifeHiscost
On 11/29/2018 at 8:45 PM, The Wanderer said:

WOW, so you actually helped her and she still had to call you an "agent of Satan?" Kinda shows where this person was coming from and why the Army was wise in how they treated the situation. This kind of thing is oft repeated and is always a terrible witness for Jesus and the Sabbath. Some I have known in medical/nursing positions tried to buy their way to heaven with Adventist Indulgences by taking whatever money they "would have earned" on "Sabbath time" and donating it to a charity; that in all likelihood did their good "work" on Sabbath anyways. There is no end to this Pandora's box, yet so many catapult their legalism at the rest of us, and then we all pay one way or the other for their lousy examples.

I watched a movie recently where some pilgrims were on their way to North America to establish a colony. Near the end of their voyage; a storm hit the ship hard, and it sprung a leak. The Captain figured they had about 3 hours before the ship would be submerged. And then the yelling match started with one side saying "We can't "work" on the Sabbath," and of course the others were concerned because if they didn't do the needed repairs to the ship; they would all be lost. The "sabbath-keeper" side were saying: "God is testing us," and the other side said: "God is giving us the opportunity!"  Can you guess how that ended? 

 

 

How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
 
God is Love!~Jesus saves!  :D

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phkrause
On 12/1/2018 at 12:52 AM, B/W Photodude said:

Here is a funny job interview!

🤣 I've seen that one before, its pretty good!!

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