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Gregory Matthews

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Gustave
33 minutes ago, phkrause said:

Not that I believe this or not, I've never heard that before!! None of my family in all the years that I can remember back, not one of them ever mentioned that!! Do you have a actually link to a website that says that? Thanks in advance!!

Forgot to add a link.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm

I know several Jews who are observant and this is their belief. The ONLY faction of Judaism that  I know of that rejected a spiritual existence apart from the body were the Sadducee - who Christ vigorously corrected - as well as St. Paul. 

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phkrause
33 minutes ago, Gustave said:

Your Jewish and have (practicing Jewish Family) and have never heard of it? 

Yes I was born into a Jewish family, but never raised as a practicing Jew! My dad who spent 2 years in a labor camp and 5 years in 3 different concentration camps, had no desire to bring us up as Jews. He didn't believe in God, because God would not have allowed this to happen, so he wanted nothing to do with God. My Mom on the other hand wanted us to have a Godly upbringing, so she looked for and found a Bible worker through the VOP and started taking Bible studies, and eventually found a Jewish/Adventist Temple. My father also eventually came around and started joining us each Sabbath. The rest of my family pretty much stayed in the Jewish faith. But never did they talk about praying over the dead!!

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Gustave
37 minutes ago, phkrause said:

Yes I was born into a Jewish family, but never raised as a practicing Jew! My dad who spent 2 years in a labor camp and 5 years in 3 different concentration camps, had no desire to bring us up as Jews. He didn't believe in God, because God would not have allowed this to happen, so he wanted nothing to do with God. My Mom on the other hand wanted us to have a Godly upbringing, so she looked for and found a Bible worker through the VOP and started taking Bible studies, and eventually found a Jewish/Adventist Temple. My father also eventually came around and started joining us each Sabbath. The rest of my family pretty much stayed in the Jewish faith. But never did they talk about praying over the dead!!

Your Family has my sincere condolences for what they went through. I can't blame your Dad- seeing what he did would be PTSD on steroids. 

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Gustave
6 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Just cuz the Jews did that doesn't make it right.  There are many admonitions in the OT about trying to communicate with the dead.  Doing such was punishable by death (although that probably wasn't enforced very often).

"Trying"?  Where in Scripture do you find examples of people "trying" to communicate with the dead in the context of what I'm telling you is the historic Jewish & Christian practice of praying for the dead and asking for their intercession? 

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JoeMo
14 hours ago, Gustave said:

"Trying"?  Where in Scripture do you find examples of people "trying" to communicate with the dead in the context of what I'm telling you is the historic Jewish & Christian practice of praying for the dead and asking for their intercession? 

To my knowledge, most non-Catholics and current-day Jews don't pray to saints.  I see nothing in the OT that documents Israelites praying to saints - I don't think they even believed in saints.  When Sail tried to communicate with Samuel (it wan't really Samuel - it was an evil spirit disguised as Samuel), he was rewarded with his kingdom being taken away from him and his family.

Like I said before - I was a good Catholic for many years.  Paul was may confirmation name, and Francis of Assisi was my patron saint (my first name is Francis).  I still look at these men as heroes and great role models; and important figures in the history of Christianity.  but I no longer pray to them.  I don't condemn others who still pray to Mary and the "saints"; but I am concerned that - because of their beliefs that these dead people can actually help them, that they may be deceived - just as Saul was - in the end times.

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Gustave
9 hours ago, JoeMo said:

To my knowledge, most non-Catholics and current-day Jews don't pray to saints.  I see nothing in the OT that documents Israelites praying to saints - I don't think they even believed in saints.  When Sail tried to communicate with Samuel (it wan't really Samuel - it was an evil spirit disguised as Samuel), he was rewarded with his kingdom being taken away from him and his family.

Like I said before - I was a good Catholic for many years.  Paul was may confirmation name, and Francis of Assisi was my patron saint (my first name is Francis).  I still look at these men as heroes and great role models; and important figures in the history of Christianity.  but I no longer pray to them.  I don't condemn others who still pray to Mary and the "saints"; but I am concerned that - because of their beliefs that these dead people can actually help them, that they may be deceived - just as Saul was - in the end times.

The Bible says it was Samuel and further claims Saul KNEW it was Samuel. 

Look at Judges 6, 22, 2nd Samuel 5, 12, Neh 6, 12 & Matthew 16, 8 and ask yourself IF the subjects of those Scriptures just sort-a thought maybe or if the text says unequivocally that they KNEW. 

I'm sorry, you've proposed a text book Jehovah's Witness argument I've heard scores of times over the years. 

 

 

 

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Gregory Matthews

I am a bit confused by the post above by Gustave:

 The story of Saul and the witch of Endor is found in 1 Samuel 28:1-20.  Verse 14 in the NIV states that Saul knew it was Samuel,  and in the NKJV that Saul perceived that it was Samuel.  These are two different words, with two different meanings.  One is more definitive than the other.

My confusion stem from the citation of the followings Biblical passages, which, as I understand the citation, do not relate to the story of Saul and the witch of Endor:

Judges 6:22:     ""When the angel of the LORD appeared to Gideon he said, 'The LORD is with you, mighty warrior.' '  NIV

2 Samuel 5:12:     "And David knew that the LORD had established him as king over Israel. . ."  NIV

Nehemiah6:6:12:     ""I realized that God had not sent him {Shjemaiah}, . . . "  NIV 

Matthew 16:8:     "Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, 'You or little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread?"   NIV

Gustave, It seems that I have misunderstood you.  Help me to understand what you posted.

 

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Gustave
1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

I am a bit confused by the post above by Gustave:

 The story of Saul and the witch of Endor is found in 1 Samuel 28:1-20.  Verse 14 in the NIV states that Saul knew it was Samuel,  and in the NKJV that Saul perceived that it was Samuel.  These are two different words, with two different meanings.  One is more definitive than the other.

My confusion stem from the citation of the followings Biblical passages, which, as I understand the citation, do not relate to the story of Saul and the witch of Endor:

Judges 6:22:     ""When the angel of the LORD appeared to Gideon he said, 'The LORD is with you, mighty warrior.' '  NIV

2 Samuel 5:12:     "And David knew that the LORD had established him as king over Israel. . ."  NIV

Nehemiah6:6:12:     ""I realized that God had not sent him {Shjemaiah}, . . . "  NIV 

Matthew 16:8:     "Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, 'You or little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread?"   NIV

Gustave, It seems that I have misunderstood you.  Help me to understand what you posted.

 

In Judges 6,22 where / when Gideon perceived it was an angel of the Lord he was talking to - Did Gideon only think it was or did he know that it was? 

In Matthew 16, 8 did Jesus only think He knew that His Apostles misunderstood the teaching on the Sadducees or did he know for sure they had? 

Those two above Scriptures are representative of the other 33 Scriptures, 34 Counting  1st Samuel 28,14

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Gustave

1 Chron 10, 13: So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; And enquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

The Witch didn't have power because of herself, Scripture said she had power because she "had a familiar spirit" and this is specifically what Saul asked his assistant to find for him ( a woman WITH a familiar spirit ). The Witch in this case was used to the company of this demon yet the Scripture states that when Samuel's spirit rose she was terrified and then the spirit of Samuel goes on to rebuke Saul for not following God ( does this sound like something a demon would do? Chastise a person for not following God? ). 

The Bible documents many supernatural events: Sheep magically changing colors, the Sun standing still, Wizards being hired to curse other people, etc. We can either accept by Faith that the supernatural events were documented correctly OR we can conclude the events described are simply myths or fables designed to startle people into following the rules. 

 

 

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JoeMo

The Amplified Bible reads as follows:

 The king said to her, “Do not be afraid; but [tell me] what do you see?” The woman said to Saul, “I see a [a]divine [superhuman] being coming up from the earth.” He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, wrapped in a robe.” Then Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid respect [to him]. Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” 

First of all, Samuel was not a divine being.  He was a human being.  Secondly, if it was really Samuel, wouldn't he have been brought down from heaven instead of up from the underworld?

Acts 2:34 says "David did not ascend to heaven". If David - who was the apple of God's eye - didn't go to heaven, why should Samuel?

17 hours ago, Gustave said:

I'm sorry, you've proposed a text book Jehovah's Witness argument I've heard scores of times over the years. 

It's a text that SDA's and others who don't believe in an unconditionally immortal soul for years, as well.  To me, it's clear that when you die, you perish into an unconscious state  more like a DEEEEEP coma) Until you are resurrected.  Look atr what Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 has to say:

"Anyone who is among the living has hope[a]—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

For the living know that they will die,
    but the dead know nothing;

they have no further reward,
    and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
    and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
    in anything that happens under the sun."

John 3:16 says that those who believe in Jesus "will not perish but have everlasting life"  Traditional Christian belief would have one thing that everyone will have everlasting life; but some will have it much better than others.

Gustave, I understand that this is foreign to your Catholicism.  I don't blame you; I struggled with these and other (what I consider to be) unbiblical or extrabiblical stuff for years.  But the more I studied the Bible for myself, the more doubtful I became concerning certain Catholic beliefs.  I don't think I'm smarter than you; I simply believe differently.

In a previous post, you questioned why I would leave my Catholic faith over what one priest told me.  It was because at least he was honest with me in telling me that I could nor reconcile Catholic dogma with scripture.  He was my deciding factor.  All the other priests I asked rebuked me for thinking I was smarter than the church fathers who interpreted the Bible from original manuscripts long before I was even a twinkle in my father's eye; and who was I to question or challenge them.  As an ex-hippie, I grew up questioning all the answers.

I'm glad you're here, Gustave, don't let some of us heretics scare you away.  You are a fresh and intelligent voice; and a good representative of your faith.  Blessings to you.

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Gustave
2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

The Amplified Bible reads as follows:

 The king said to her, “Do not be afraid; but [tell me] what do you see?” The woman said to Saul, “I see a [a]divine [superhuman] being coming up from the earth.” He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, wrapped in a robe.” Then Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid respect [to him]. Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” 

First of all, Samuel was not a divine being.  He was a human being.  Secondly, if it was really Samuel, wouldn't he have been brought down from heaven instead of up from the underworld?

Acts 2:34 says "David did not ascend to heaven". If David - who was the apple of God's eye - didn't go to heaven, why should Samuel?

It's a text that SDA's and others who don't believe in an unconditionally immortal soul for years, as well.  To me, it's clear that when you die, you perish into an unconscious state  more like a DEEEEEP coma) Until you are resurrected.  Look atr what Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 has to say:

"Anyone who is among the living has hope[a]—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

For the living know that they will die,
    but the dead know nothing;

they have no further reward,
    and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
    and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
    in anything that happens under the sun."

John 3:16 says that those who believe in Jesus "will not perish but have everlasting life"  Traditional Christian belief would have one thing that everyone will have everlasting life; but some will have it much better than others.

Gustave, I understand that this is foreign to your Catholicism.  I don't blame you; I struggled with these and other (what I consider to be) unbiblical or extrabiblical stuff for years.  But the more I studied the Bible for myself, the more doubtful I became concerning certain Catholic beliefs.  I don't think I'm smarter than you; I simply believe differently.

In a previous post, you questioned why I would leave my Catholic faith over what one priest told me.  It was because at least he was honest with me in telling me that I could nor reconcile Catholic dogma with scripture.  He was my deciding factor.  All the other priests I asked rebuked me for thinking I was smarter than the church fathers who interpreted the Bible from original manuscripts long before I was even a twinkle in my father's eye; and who was I to question or challenge them.  As an ex-hippie, I grew up questioning all the answers.

I'm glad you're here, Gustave, don't let some of us heretics scare you away.  You are a fresh and intelligent voice; and a good representative of your faith.  Blessings to you.

Read the full account [ from the amplified Bible ]

Verse 2 says: Saul asked for a medium "between the living and the dead".

Verse 15 says: Then Samuel said to Saul.

Verse 16 says: "Samuel said"

Of course David did not ascend into heaven, Christ hadn't went to heaven yet. 

SDA's and others (Adventists AKA Christadelphians, Jehovah's Witnesses and WWCOG 7th day). 

I'm just suggesting that you consider that it was 'the same careful Bible scholarship' that led the Pioneers of the SDA Church to conclude that Jesus wasn't God, reject the Trinity and that despite Christ's explicit warning that man could not know the day of His 2nd Coming the Adventists claimed THEY could know. 

There is zero doubt that Paul believed the spirits of the righteous dead were conscious with Christ in heaven. 

Hebrews 12, 22: But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Paul said that worshipers of Christ on earth were not merely coming to a mountain on earth but were joined in worship with those who are already in the City of God in heaven - who are at a joyous assembly and if you believe it's logical to believe that "the spirits OF just men" that had been "made perfect" were the only guests at the ongoing joyous assembly (in heaven ) that were unconscious I would think you should be appealing to something more than a single text in the Old Testament that also says that there is no Resurrection.  

You claim the Priest was being honest with you (and I'm not saying he wasn't being honest in what he believed). What I'm saying is that it's Catholic 101 that Priests don't call the shots, they either teach according to the deposit of faith or they don't. 

I appreciate talking with you folks as well. 

 

 

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Gregory Matthews

`1 Thes. 4:17, may be related to some of what is being discussed here.  I have placed an article on that verse in the theology section.

As JoMo said:  Gustave, we welcome you here and appreciate your contributions to this forum.

 

 

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JoeMo
11 hours ago, Gustave said:

Of course David did not ascend into heaven, Christ hadn't went to heaven yet. 

Actually, He had ascended.  Peter made that statement on Pentecost; which was after Christ had already ascended.

11 hours ago, Gustave said:

I'm just suggesting that you consider that it was 'the same careful Bible scholarship' that led the Pioneers of the SDA Church to conclude that Jesus wasn't God, reject the Trinity and that despite Christ's explicit warning that man could not know the day of His 2nd Coming the Adventists claimed THEY could know. 

I agree.  I myself am no longer a Trinitarian, but I was for most of my life.  I DO believe Christ is God.  There are a lot of Catholic theology changes that have taken place over the years - like people don't go to hell anymore for eating meat on Fridays; and people besides priests (deacons?) can touch the consecrated host to distribute communion; and all Protestants are no longer automatically consigned to hell.

IMHO, the more formal, far-reaching, and defined a denomination's doctrine is, the more difficult it is for people to conform to every jot and tittle - sometimes to the point of that person simply "giving up" because they can't believe everything and can't keep all the rules.  If they're gonna go to hell anyways, might as well have fun in this life.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - seeking to enter the Kingdom of heaven is like seeking a promotion in a large corporation.  It's not what you know, it's Who you know.  If we truly love and believe in Jesus, we will be in His Kingdom.  He will set our doctrinal misunderstandings straight when we get there.  He will have all eternity to do so.  If Jesus disagrees with what I understand, I will come over to His side immediately.

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Gustave
2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Actually, He had ascended.  Peter made that statement on Pentecost; which was after Christ had already ascended.

I agree.  I myself am no longer a Trinitarian, but I was for most of my life.  I DO believe Christ is God.  There are a lot of Catholic theology changes that have taken place over the years - like people don't go to hell anymore for eating meat on Fridays; and people besides priests (deacons?) can touch the consecrated host to distribute communion; and all Protestants are no longer automatically consigned to hell.

IMHO, the more formal, far-reaching, and defined a denomination's doctrine is, the more difficult it is for people to conform to every jot and tittle - sometimes to the point of that person simply "giving up" because they can't believe everything and can't keep all the rules.  If they're gonna go to hell anyways, might as well have fun in this life.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - seeking to enter the Kingdom of heaven is like seeking a promotion in a large corporation.  It's not what you know, it's Who you know.  If we truly love and believe in Jesus, we will be in His Kingdom.  He will set our doctrinal misunderstandings straight when we get there.  He will have all eternity to do so.  If Jesus disagrees with what I understand, I will come over to His side immediately.

Christ ascended "bodily" into heaven, David didn't. This is why, at the point of Hebrews 12, it was clarified it was the "SPIRITS OF" those mentioned in Hebrews 11 that were at that General Assembly ( which was in heaven ).

Hebrews 11,5:  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Hebrews 11 goes on to list many additional individuals who were clearly friends of God and concludes with this.

Hebrews 11, 13: These all died in faith, NOT having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews 11, 23 - 40 specifically mentions Moses and says of him and the others mentioned:

"And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect".

So, at the point of Hebrews 12 Enoch, Moses & David were not 'bodily' in heaven. I reference these Scriptures not to get into superficial arguments or bicker but to show it's more reasonable to believe in the historic Christian teaching on the spiritual existence of man apart from the body than it is to reject it in favor of a Johnny come lately idea that sprang up in the last 300 or so years.

As far as keeping every jot and tittle of Doctrine I don't look at it that way and never have - I view them as safety "MARKERS" or buoys to stay within. Take the peccability of Christ for instance - if you believe that Christ is God and apply those affirmations Sacred Scripture make about God you know for certain that there was no possibility of Christ sinning and loosing His own salvation and subsequently being eternally annihilated by the Father. IF you reject Jesus is God than Arianism / Unitarianism or literally anything becomes the logical end of your theological journey.

I would agree with you 100% that's it's all about WHO you know and little of what you know as far as the R.O.I. on the Christian Faith. We agree about that.

 

 

 

 

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JoeMo

Gustave,

I respect your study, research, and faith too much to continue quibbling about an issue we can't agree on.  I'll even give one point - Even as an SDA, I have to consider the possibility that there are many more humans currently in heaven than just Enoch, Elijah, and Moses.  Consider the following description of what happened immediately after Jesus died on the cross:

" At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people." (Matt. 27:51-53)

These people appear to have been resurrected even before Jesus' resurrection!  Were these people resurrected only to die a natural death once again?  I think not, I believe they were possibly resurrected with glorified (saintly) bodies and went to heaven with Jesus.

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phkrause
22 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

" At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people." (Matt. 27:51-53)

These people appear to have been resurrected even before Jesus' resurrection!

But the verse clearly states that "they came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection?"

 

25 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Were these people resurrected only to die a natural death once again?  I think not, I believe they were possibly resurrected with glorified (saintly) bodies and went to heaven with Jesus.

Not sure I'm in total agreement with that JoeMo. I think if that was the case, don't you think that Paul would've said that happened? Also I've heard, I believe it was pastor Bohr, who has mentioned that, if I remember correctly, that the 24 elders could be some of the people that are in heaven! They could be some that were resurrected with Jesus?? I'm going to see if I can find his lectures on the 24 elders and post them.

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Gustave
1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

Gustave,

I respect your study, research, and faith too much to continue quibbling about an issue we can't agree on.  I'll even give one point - Even as an SDA, I have to consider the possibility that there are many more humans currently in heaven than just Enoch, Elijah, and Moses.  Consider the following description of what happened immediately after Jesus died on the cross:

" At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people." (Matt. 27:51-53)

These people appear to have been resurrected even before Jesus' resurrection!  Were these people resurrected only to die a natural death once again?  I think not, I believe they were possibly resurrected with glorified (saintly) bodies and went to heaven with Jesus.

There is a caveat, however, because at the point of Hebrews 11 & 12 it's certain Moses and Enoch weren't "bodily" in heaven as David wasn't "bodily" in heaven.

The text is clear as to the reason:

"And these ALL, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should NOT be made perfect".

If Enoch, Moses, etc. had been Resurrected and given incorruptible bodies prior to Hebrews 11 they would indeed have already been made perfect and received the promise. The texts state explicitly state Moses wasn't 'bodily' in heaven.

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Gregory Matthews

I appreciate the discussion taking place between Gustave and  other of our members.  While I may comment more later, I am now wanting to give others time to comment before I do.

I will comment now on comments the cite a relationship between doctrine stated here and that of the JWs:

 *  The real issue is not whether or not any other denomination teaches something.  It is whether or not the Bible teaches it.

*    SDAs would reject much that the JWs teach.  However, on some points what we teach may be similar, at least in part, to what they teach.

 *  After all, SDAS do have some similar beliefs with Catholics.  But that does not make us Catholic and a belief similar to the JWS does not make us JW.

*  No denomination, to include SDAs has a perfect understanding of all that God wants taught.  Over the years, the SDA denomination has changed its beliefs on some subjects and probably will continue to do so in the future, if it follows the leading of the Holy Spirit.

*  No, the so-called 28 are not perfect, should not be used as a creed, and hopefully in the future will better reflect what God wants taught.

 

 

 

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Gustave
1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

 

 *  The real issue is not whether or not any other denomination teaches something.  It is whether or not the Bible teaches it.

*    SDAs would reject much that the JWs teach.  However, on some points what we teach may be similar, at least in part, to what they teach.

 *  After all, SDAS do have some similar beliefs with Catholics.  But that does not make us Catholic and a belief similar to the JWS does not make us JW.

Good points. 

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rudywoofs (Pam)

it's never been a burning desire of mine to know, but is *every* belief of SDAs taught in the Bible?  (my hunch is that the answer is "no"... except in a convoluted "if this, then this" type of deductive reasoning)

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JoeMo
2 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

it's never been a burning desire of mine to know, but is *every* belief of SDAs taught in the Bible?  (my hunch is that the answer is "no"... except in a convoluted "if this, then this" type of deductive reasoning)

And could not the same kind of deductive (I'll take it one step further - speculative) reasoning reasonably come to a different conclusion?  Could it be that as more information has become available to us over the past 170 years that reasonable deductive reasoning might take us down a different path?  If the original "if this" is discovered to be false, we have to find a better "if this" based on our new information (i.e., "present truth")

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Gregory Matthews

Is every SDA teaching taught in the Bible:

*  In our past history, it has been clearly demonstrated that we were wrong and needed to make a change.

*   It must be assumed that the same is true today as it can not be assumed that we are perfect in all of our teachings.

*  We do hold to some ideas today that may be lightly mentioned in  the Bible, but are not well grounded in the Bible.  I can think of some.

*  Our understanding of the Bible may be conditioned by our culture.

*  The Bible may not speak definitively to every issue that we may face in life.  Therefore, we may need attempt to apply a Biblical principal to a specific situation in which we struggle to  find an answer.

*  When I comes right down to it, we may have teachings in which the Bible is silent.  I am reminded of a policy in the SDA Church in another country that would discipline a person who wore blue jeans in public.

 

 

 

 

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