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Gregory Matthews

1Thessalonians 4:17

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Gustave

Is this article suggesting that Paul used what Jehovah's Witnesses refer to as "Satan's 1st lie" to help the early Christians feel better about the reality of the dangerous time it was to be a Christian? I've read the article over and that's what it seems to be suggesting but I could be wrong. If that's the case the same apologetic would be applied to Christ when He spoke of the rich man and Lazarus and turns on it's head Christ's teachings on the multiple errors of the Sadducees, specifically the question about the spirits of dead men NOT being dead. 

According to Scripture a Pharisee COULD be a follower of Christ and it would be difficult to say the same of a Sadducee. 

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phkrause

Well what I see or the passage is saying to me, is that at Christ's second coming, the righteous dead rise first, then those that are alive are taken up into heaven! Especially if you read on to the next few verse's!!

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JoeMo

Get out your tar and feathers - I'm about to propose another alternative"

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."    (1 Thes. 4:16-17)

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints" (Jude 1:14).

Could these scriptures be describing two separate events? I believe that God will translate ( rapture) living and dead saints off of the earth prior to the "wrath of God" falling upon the wicked.  It doesn't appear that Jesus' feet ever touch the ground.

The wrath of God will be BAD!!! Worse than anything that humanity has ever seen.  It will destroy almost everybody (maybe even everybody) left on earth.  THEN - after (or during) the wrath of God falling, Jesus returns with all His saints.  Does that make any sense?

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phkrause

This is how the CJB says it:

14 Moreover, Hanokh, in the seventh generation starting with Adam, also prophesied about these men, saying, "Look! ADONAI came with his myriads of holy ones

In my thinking "myriads of holy ones" is saying "Angels??"

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Gustave

Again, guys, Hebrews 11 & 12 describe in great detail scores of individuals (by name) who died (to include Moses, Enoch & Elijah) and NONE of these individuals were yet 'bodily' in heaven at the point the Book of Hebrews was written by St. Paul.

Christ settled the matter beyond any doubt when He repudiated the Sadducees belief that the dead were unconscious.

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Gustave
3 hours ago, phkrause said:

This is how the CJB says it:

14 Moreover, Hanokh, in the seventh generation starting with Adam, also prophesied about these men, saying, "Look! ADONAI came with his myriads of holy ones

In my thinking "myriads of holy ones" is saying "Angels??"

Both the Book of Enoch and the Book of Daniel classify "holy ones" as Angles. 

Daniel 4, 13:  I saw in the visions of my head while on my bed, and there was a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven. He cried [a]aloud and said thus:

Enoch 39, 4: There I saw another vision; I saw the habitations and resting places of the saints. There my eyes beheld their habitations with the angels, and their resting places with the holy ones. They were entreating, supplicating, and praying for the sons of men; while righteousness like water flowed before them, and mercy like dew was scattered over the earth. And thus shall it be with them for ever and for ever

 

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