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Gregory Matthews

The Little Horn--More

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hch
6 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again hch,

I appreciate your additional detail. I apologise for my previous abruptness and negative language, but I still cannot accept your perspective on this and do not want to go down the track of answering your specific detail.

 

 

I would be interested in discussing other detail with those that hold more or less the traditional view. As well as the basic framework of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome there is much more minor detail in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 to exercise our interest and discernment leaving much to be discussed with those of similar minds. For example, a few of many aspects, the feet and toes of iron and clay Daniel 2:41-43, what is the clay element, the fact that the stone strikes the image on the feet Daniel 2:34, the fact that the whole image is ground to powder and the stone becomes a great mountain and fills the earth Daniel 2:35, that is the earth is not burnt but is equated with the kingdom, and how the fourth beast is destroyed but the other three beasts lose their dominions but survive for a season and a time Daniel 7:12 and what is the meaning of the kingdom and dominion under the whole heaven Daniel 7:27, if as held by SDAs that the saints are in heaven and the earth is burnt for the 1000 years.

 

 

Kind regards Trevor

 

 

Thanks Trevor,

It was tradition that led folks astray in the 1843 & 44 Advent movement. Because of tradition, they got the event wrong and many fell away after that. But the Holy Spirit is quite able to lead us into all truth. I give the facts as I understand them at the time. As Friday used to say: The facts and just the facts.

Christian regards,

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TrevorL

Greetings again hch,

7 hours ago, hch said:

But the Holy Spirit is quite able to lead us into all truth. I give the facts as I understand them at the time.

Many claim Holy Spirit guidance, but the results from two people thus guided are contradictory. My mate that I mentioned before, came to a difficulty in his exposition of Isaiah 6, and he wrote as if praying, “what is the solution here” and then writes “thank You”, and gives an outrageous concept. I am not sure if he was relying on the Holy Spirit or prayer, but I assume he is still locked into this decisive moment.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

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The Wanderer
On 1/2/2019 at 1:22 PM, The Wanderer said:

I intend to post specific details and references for the question I have posited above, as time & energy permit. In my post where I quoted from above, I also listed some areas I think we can agree upon? Can you please confirm that one way or the other? I think it would add value to the discussion to know where we are in agreement.

A quick preview from Scripture on "the little horn": "The Little Horn" seems to be the first of at least twelve titles given to the power commonly known, in Scripture; and by most commentators as "the Antichrist": compare Dan_11:21-30,

Note the other titles:

(1) "the king of Babylon" (Isa 14:4)

(2) "the Assyrian" (Isa 14:25; +** Mic 5:5 note)

(3) "Lucifer, son of the morning," in opposition to "the bright and morning star" (Isa 14:12)

(4) "the Prince that shall come" (Dan 9:26)

(5) "the king of fierce countenance" (Dan 8:23)

(6) "the vile person" (Dan 11:21)

(7) "the willful king" (Dan 11:36)

(8) "the man of sin" (2 Thes 2:3)

(9) "the son of perdition" (2 Thes 2:3)

(10) "that wicked (or lawless) one" (2 Thes 2:3; Rev 13:18)

(11) "the beast with ten horns" (Rev 13:1)

(12) "the little horn" (Dan 8:8) [CB]. = 1 Kings 22:11, = Psalms 75:10; = Psalms 132:17, Isa 27:1, = Zec 1:18, ** Mat 24:5; ** Mat 24:15, 2 Thes 2:3-4, 1 John 2:18; 1 John 4:3

What does the text mean when it says the folowing? How would you prove your point/s from scripture alone?

1/ plucked up
2/ by the roots
3/ eyes like
4/ the eyes of man
5/ a mouth speaking great

1/ Dan 11:4, Deut 28:63, Jer 48:25, 2 Tim 3:1.
2/ Dan 2:33.
3/ Dan 8:23-25, = Zech 3:9; = Zech 4:10; Zec 11:17, Rev 9:7.
4/ Dan 11:21.

I think it can be seen that my above post where I posited that "there will be more than one church involved" as being "the little horn power" can be seen more clearly; what else could all these scriptures mean? It almost does not matter which ones they are for purposes of this "little horn" prophecy." It is/will be easy for us to spot as the world powers that be start to flex their muscles more during the "time of the end."

Says the prophet: "I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb." (Dan 7:11). Both the appearance of this beast and the manner of its rise indicate that the nation which it represents is unlike those presented under the preceding symbols. The great kingdoms that have ruled the world were presented to the prophet Daniel as beasts of prey, rising when "the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea." (Daniel 7:2). In Revelation 17 an angel explained that waters represent "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." Revelation 17:15. Winds are a symbol of strife. The four winds of heaven striving upon the great sea represent the terrible scenes of conquest and revolution by which kingdoms have attained to power.   

But the beast with lamblike horns was seen "coming up out of the earth." Instead of overthrowing other powers to establish itself, the nation thus represented must arise in territory previously unoccupied and grow up gradually and peacefully. It could not, then, arise among the crowded and struggling nationalities of the Old World--that turbulent sea of "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." It must be sought in the Western Continent.  

 

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TrevorL

Greetings again The Wanderer,

I find your list a little confusing, as I suggest that some of these items are describing different entities. I will mention only the following:

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

(12) "the little horn" (Dan 8:8)

The little horn of Daniel 7 is different to the little horn of Daniel 8. My understanding is that the little horn of Daniel 7 describes a religious power, while that of Daniel 8 is a military power.

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

4) "the Prince that shall come" (Dan 9:26)

I find this unusual, as I believe that this is describing the Romans in AD70.

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

It must be sought in the Western Continent.

Could you explain what you are suggesting by this term?

Kind regards Trevor

 

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JoeMo
16 hours ago, TrevorL said:

The little horn of Daniel 7 is different to the little horn of Daniel 8.

Why would you say that?  When Daniel was written, there were no chapters and verses - the book was a continuous narrative.  With that in mind, the little horn should be the same power if the book is to be taken in context. Could it be that the little horn represents a power that is both a powerful theocracy AND an intimidating military presence?

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TrevorL

Greetings again JoeMo,

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

Why would you say that?  When Daniel was written, there were no chapters and verses - the book was a continuous narrative.  With that in mind, the little horn should be the same power if the book is to be taken in context. Could it be that the little horn represents a power that is both a powerful theocracy AND an intimidating military presence?

Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 are two different visions given at two different times, and the context of Daniel 8 is the Medo-Persians and the Grecians.  The context of the little horn of Daniel 7 is the fourth beast, the Roman. The chapter division is not necessary to assess this distinction.

 

The items that The Wanderer gave are like a number of jig-saw pieces, and most probably each of us will join different pieces together in different positions to make up our perspective of the final picture. The little horn of Daniel 7 arises out of one of the ten horns of the fourth beast, and I understand these ten horns to be the subdivisions of the Roman Empire. The little horn of Daniel 8 arises out of one of the four subdivisions of the Grecian Empire. I understand that this development represents the rise of the Roman Empire in the east to take over the role of the King of the North. The Roman power took over the Grecian firstly through being gifted the Pergamon territory, and then gradually other regions in Asia Minor. This speaks of the Eastern wing of the Roman Empire and is depicted in Daniel 8 and Daniel 11 in mainly a military role. The little horn of Daniel 7 is later and represents the rise of the Papacy and was more the Western wing of the Roman Empire.

 

Btw I am still interested in whether The Wanderer endorses the usual view that I mentioned, of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome and that the little horn of Daniel 7 is the Papacy as presented by Isaac Newton and Uriah Smith. I imagine that this is the view usually held by SDAs, and it was the view presented in the first session of a SDA seminar series titled The Prophetic Code that I attended a few years ago. The presenter spoke mainly on Daniel 2 and 7 and I could look for my notes that I took on the occasion. I also attended an earlier seminar series and the second session was on Daniel 2. I also completed the correspondence course on The Prophetic Code. I could consult both of the notes issued with these, but they presented the four empires.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

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The Wanderer
4 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Why would you say that?  When Daniel was written, there were no chapters and verses - the book was a continuous narrative.  With that in mind, the little horn should be the same power if the book is to be taken in context. Could it be that the little horn represents a power that is both a powerful theocracy AND an intimidating military presence?

I do not have specific references for this post, but just wanted to say I am finding that each time a certain subject is written in scripture; it usually builds upon previous or similar verses about the subject at hand. IF as Trevor seems to say, there are TWO different/separate "little horns" in scripture, then I do not know how one would prove that.

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JoeMo

As I have stated in other threads, I am a futurist;  therefore I don't think the prophecies in Daniel or Revelation have been fulfilled yet.  For example, Dan. 7:11-12 says - speaking of the little horn and the 4th beast:

“Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)"

I don't see historically where Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece  went on after the destruction of Rome (either physical or spiritual Rome)

Also, Daniel states several times in Chapter 8 and 12 that the vision is for the latter days or the distant future (See Dan. 8:18, 19, 26,a dn 12:9 and 13, for example).  IMHO, "far into the future" or "the latter days" didn't begin  more than 1,500 years ago.  Most certainly, the historical and preterist views are good application of these prophecies and "models" for end time events, but I don't think they are the ultimate fulfillment of these prophecies.  I don't see them as fulfilling all of the details of these prophecies.  If they don't fulfill everything that is prophesied, the prophecies are not fulfilled.  I could be wrong.

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The Wanderer
14 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

“Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)"

I don't see historically where Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece  went on after the destruction of Rome (either physical or spiritual Rome)

May I ask how you are connecting Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece with "the beast" mentioned in Dan 7:11-12?  Do you see these Kingdoms as part of the great image Daniel saw & interpreted for the King in Daniel 2? I am trying to figure how you made the jump from those kingdoms of Dan 2 to being the "beasts" here in Dan 7?

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The Wanderer
19 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Also, Daniel states several times in Chapter 8 and 12 that the vision is for the latter days or the distant future (See Dan. 8:18, 19, 26,a dn 12:9 and 13, for example).  IMHO, "far into the future" or "the latter days" didn't begin  more than 1,500 years ago. 

I dont mind what you call yourself - "futurist" is fine but definitions vary thereof.. What I am wondering is do you have a way to decide/know that this "end time" period is upon us? If so, how do you see it reflected in scripture? (and where do you get that 1500 years from?)

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TrevorL

Greetings again JoeMo,

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

As I have stated in other threads, I am a futurist;  therefore I don't think the prophecies in Daniel or Revelation have been fulfilled yet.  For example, Dan. 7:11-12 says - speaking of the little horn and the 4th beast:

“Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)"

I don't see historically where Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece  went on after the destruction of Rome (either physical or spiritual Rome)

My only suggestion here is that the main territory or headquarters of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece were different to Rome. Rome is considered more to be Western Europe, Greece is distinct and partly Eastern Europe, and Babylon is more Iraq, and Medo-Persia is Iran. Now I do not believe that this fits in with SDA theology, as they believe that the whole population of the earth will be destroyed for the 1000 years. But I believe that this is teaching that although these countries will be part of the invasion of the Holy Land depicted in Ezekiel 38, Daniel 11:40-45, Zechariah 14, that it will mainly be Western Europe headed up by the Papacy that will not submit to the rule of Christ after Armageddon. The other nations after these judgements will submit and the visions of Isaiah 2:1-4 and Zechariah 14 are fulfilled in these nations coming to Jerusalem to worship when Jesus sits upon the throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

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JoeMo
5 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

May I ask how you are connecting Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece with "the beast" mentioned in Dan 7:11-12?  Do you see these Kingdoms as part of the great image Daniel saw & interpreted for the King in Daniel 2? I am trying to figure how you made the jump from those kingdoms of Dan 2 to being the "beasts" here in Dan 7?

I do connect them with the statue in Daniel 2 and the rams/goats in Daniel 8.  I understand why you would ask this question, though.  Daniel 7 doesn't identify any kingdoms.

 

5 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

What I am wondering is do you have a way to decide/know that this "end time" period is upon us? If so, how do you see it reflected in scripture? (and where do you get that 1500 years from?)

I don't know specifically what "signs" to look for; but - as an ardent student os scripture and as guided by the Spirit, I pray I will know the signs when they appear.  We may not be sure the end of time is upon us until we see the awesome supernatural signs predicted in eschatology.

The 1500 years (more like 2300 years) comes from the traditional SDA interpretation of the 2300 days, 1260 days etc. which started when the Jews returned to Israel from the Babylonian exile and allegedly ended in 1798 (or 1844).

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong; I'm just stating my opinions here.  I can't "prove" anything I'm saying here; I don't "know" the future.

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The Wanderer
46 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

The 1500 years (more like 2300 years) comes from the traditional SDA interpretation of the 2300 days, 1260 days etc. which started when the Jews returned to Israel from the Babylonian exile and allegedly ended in 1798 (or 1844).

I will come back to this...:)

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stinsonmarri
On 1/8/2019 at 5:50 PM, JoeMo said:

The 1500 years (more like 2300 years) comes from the traditional SDA interpretation of the 2300 days, 1260 days etc. which started when the Jews returned to Israel from the Babylonian exile and allegedly ended in 1798 (or 1844).

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong; I'm just stating my opinions here.  I can't "prove" anything I'm saying here; I don't "know" the future.

 

Joe: Again you are holding on to everything is future; instead of futurist, preterist, and historicist. YAHWEH WAYS are not our ways nor is HIS THOUGHTS. A day is like a thousand years to THE ALMIGHTY ONES! This is not traditional SDA, interpretation. This is something, I truly disagree with you based on time. I will go back and say today as I am writing to you is the present, and tomorrow it will be the Sabbath. But when the Sabbath comes it is no longer tomorrow because tomorrow is always the next day. Tomorrow never comes! Yesterday was Thursday and it is the past. Time for the eastern coast is different from the central, midwest, and western coast. Albert Einstein theory of relativity has to do with the gravitational potential and heights. In other words, the farther the clock is from the source of gravitation, the faster time passes. Now I am not a great mathematician but as a historian, I understand time a little. 

Now scientist, want us to believe that the earth is older then is. We know that the earth has a crust, once man went out into space. The crust shows, that the entire earth was covered with water. YAHWEH original calendar is found in Gen 1:14 and it uses both the moon and the sun. Today we use only a solar calendar and our time is not correct. The Naval base uses a lunar-solar calendar like the Hebrews of the Bible. They keep up with the moon phases and Abib in Ex 13:4 is so important to time. I am saying this because of Gabriel not SDA, who gave the exact time of the end. It has to do with YAHWEH'S original calendar of time. That's is before the flood, when there were 30 days in a month or each moon cycle. We are off time because YAHWEH gave the month of Abib, to keep up with time. It had to do with the barley crop been ripe in Jerusalem. The Karites kept up with this time and with Gen 8:22. That's when we were given the various seasons, not before the flood.

You then have to accept futurist, preterist, and historicist in order to understand that the 2300 days prophecy was correct. The end of time begins in 1798 and the proof is knowledge did increase and that's where history comes in. From that time on man inventions moved at a specific pace. Within 163 years men invented the train, telegraph machine guns, armor tanks, submarines, cars, planes, phones television, atomic, and nuclear bombs, atomic ships, broke the speed of light, computers, and traveling out in space. I know I miss a lot and all before 200 years, Joe. Europeans living in America has only been here a few years, just over 400 years. Half that time knowledge has increased with rapid speed!

The end of time began in 1798 and the time of the end began in 9/11. Islam did what no one ever did to the United States of America. It took out, with a most generous plan, the twin towers. As intelligent and sophisticated this country had become, right under our noses, they did this. Now, Russia has used our own internet system against us and mess for the first time in our election. Yet, we are not defeated, even though all of the things that are happening now, including the closing of the government. Any other country would have collapsed with what is happening with our government. What makes us so different? The Bible and how this country will assist the beast! What's happening now should wake all of up! We are on the cuff of YAHWEH'S Appointed Time. We are still debating past time when the future time is upon us! The Time of Trouble is about to begin, now here is the great shocker, SDA is now putting everything off to the future. Wrong! They think SDA Denomination will finish the gospel. Wrong! They think the whole church is the remnant! Wrong! It is the seed that will finish the work along with those in Dan 12:2. Time waits on no one, haven't you heard. I urge you all get your house in order because time is running out and where will you stand when it does!

Blessings!

Blessings!

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stinsonmarri
14 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

The 1500 years (more like 2300 years) comes from the traditional SDA interpretation of the 2300 days, 1260 days etc. which started when the Jews returned to Israel from the Babylonian exile and allegedly ended in 1798 (or 1844).

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong; I'm just stating my opinions here.  I can't "prove" anything I'm saying here; I don't "know" the future.

I tried to edited because I left out something. So here it is edited.

Joe: Again you are holding on to everything is future; instead of futurist, preterist, and historicist. YAHWEH WAYS are not our ways nor is HIS THOUGHTS. A day is like a thousand years to THE ALMIGHTY ONES! This is not traditional SDA, interpretation. This is something, I truly disagree with you based on time. I will go back and say today as I am writing to you is the present, and tomorrow it will be the Sabbath. But when the Sabbath comes it is no longer tomorrow because tomorrow is always the next day. Tomorrow never comes! Yesterday was Thursday and it is the past. Time for the eastern coast is different from the central, midwest, and western coast. Albert Einstein theory of relativity has to do with the gravitational potential and heights. In other words, the farther the clock is from the source of gravitation, the faster time passes. Now I am not a great mathematician but as a historian, I understand time a little. 

Now scientist, want us to believe that the earth is older then is. We know that the earth has a crust, once man went out into space. The crust shows, that the entire earth was covered with water. YAHWEH original calendar is found in Gen 1:14 and it uses both the moon and the sun. Today we use only a solar calendar and our time is not correct. The Naval base uses a lunar-solar calendar like the Hebrews of the Bible. They keep up with the moon phases but not Abib in Ex 13:4, which is so important to time. I am saying this because of Gabriel not SDA, who gave the exact time of the end. It has to do with YAHWEH'S original calendar of time. That's is before the flood, when there were 30 days in a month or each moon cycle. We are off time because YAHWEH gave the month of Abib, to keep up with time. It had to do with the barley crop been ripe in Jerusalem (there is more to this). The Karites kept up with this time and with Gen 8:22. That's when we were given the various seasons, not before the flood.

You then have to accept futurist, preterist, and historicist in order to understand that the 2300 days prophecy was correct. The end of time begins in 1798 and the proof is knowledge did increase and that's where history comes in. From that time on man inventions moved at a specific pace. Within 163 years men invented the train, telegraph machine guns, armor tanks, submarines, cars, planes, phones television, atomic, and nuclear bombs, atomic ships, broke the speed of light, computers, and traveling out in space. I know I miss a lot and all before 200 years, Joe. Europeans living in America has only been here a few years over 400 years. Half that time knowledge has increased with rapid speed!

The end of time began in 1798 and the time of the end began in 9/11. Islam did what no one ever did to the United States of America. It took out, with a most generous plan, the twin towers. As intelligent and sophisticated this country had become, right under our noses, they did this. Now, Russia has used our own internet system against us and mess for the first time in our election. Yet, we are not defeated, even though all of the things that are happening now, including the closing of the government. Any other country would have collapsed with what is happening with our government. What makes us so different? The Bible and how this country will assist the beast! What's happening now should wake all of us up! We are on the cuff of the second to the last of YAHWEH'S Appointed Time (HE gave all the Appoint Times in Daniel and Revelation). We are still debating past time when the future time is upon us! The Time of Trouble is about to begin and then the one hour time, now this is the great shocker, SDA is now putting everything off to the future. Wrong! They think SDA Denomination will finish the gospel. Wrong! They think the whole church is the remnant! Wrong! It is the seed that will finish the work along with those in Dan 12:2. Time waits on no one, haven't you heard. I urge you all get your house in order because time is running out, and where will you stand when the Appointed Time of the Time of Trouble found in Daniel and the final hour of Appointed Time comes in both Daniel and Revelation!

Blessings!

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stinsonmarri
On 1/6/2019 at 6:53 PM, The Wanderer said:

A quick preview from Scripture on "the little horn": "The Little Horn" seems to be the first of at least twelve titles given to the power commonly known, in Scripture; and by most commentators as "the Antichrist": compare Dan_11:21-30,

Wanderer: Maybe the antichrist is not the correct word that should be used at all for the little horn. The word is only mentioned four times in the Bible. It isn't mentioned at all in Daniel or Revelation! 

Antichrist means one who oppose THE MESSIAH! 1John 2:18 states that in the last time or days that you hear about opposing THE MESSIAH, and it is that time because there are many who oppose the MESSIAH. 1John 2:22 states anyone who is a liar and they don't believe in THE FATHER or THE MESSIAH opposes THE MESSIAH. 1 John 4:3 states every mind (spirit is used and brings on confusion, it should have been written mind), that does not accept that YAHSHUA came in the flesh is not of THE FATHER and opposes THE MESSIAH and they are already in the world during John's time! Finally, 2 John 1:7 states many deceivers are in the world who do not accept that YAHSHUA, THE MESSIAH came in the flesh, this is a deceiver who opposes THE MESSIAH! So the word has to with all who do not accept the truth about THE MESSIAH and THE FATHER period. Yes, Satan is the main deceiver, and he goes up against THE MOST HIGH, but he knows that YAHSHUA came in the flesh! But Satan is a liar and he deceives men and he opposes THE MESSIAH. Many who call themselves saying they believe the truth, but are liars. It is how they preach about YAHSHUA they deceive people to become delusional and to believe a lie. All religions and churches oppose THE MESSIAH because many are tares! Yes, the little horn opposes THE MESSIAH, but he does much more, he tries to take away THE MESSIAH PRIESTHOOD! He claims he is both THE MESSIAH and THE FATHER and what he says is above the Bible. No other religion makes that claim that why he blaspheme against the Heavenly host, the true Heavenly Sanctuary and the work that takes place in the Sanctuary down to the Book of Life! He tries to make people that the sanctuary is still here on earth. Even the Jews have plans to rebuild the sanctuary. He feels when it is done, it will belong to him! That's why he owns Jerusalem!

On 1/6/2019 at 6:53 PM, The Wanderer said:

I think it can be seen that my above post where I posited that "there will be more than one church involved" as being "the little horn power" can be seen more clearly; what else could all these scriptures mean? It almost does not matter which ones they are for purposes of this "little horn" prophecy." It is/will be easy for us to spot as the world powers that be start to flex their muscles more during the "time of the end."

The Christians or Protestants started protesting against the papacy empire in the Middle Ages. But did they really? The only Catholic and Protestant civil war was in Ireland since Napoleon took the Vatican's states and imprisoned the pope.

The Catholic restarted the Trinity belief, Sunday worship, the T cross, Christmas, Easter, Halloween, St. Patrick, Valentine the Gregorian Calendar (mostly all countries follow it today including the Rabbinic Jews), and Communion. The nuns are married to Jesus but they are not virgin there are facts to prove the killing of babies. We all know about the priest! This Church says that they are both YAHSHUA and THE FATHER, they claim the sanctuary still exist on the earth. They have taken over the priesthood and opposes the PRIESTHOOD of THE MESSIAH in Heaven and The Heavenly Sanctuary also the Book of Life. They claim the papacy authority is over the Bible. Now the Jews are planning to rebuild the earthly sanctuary, but here is the shocker, the Catholic Church owns the land.  That's the treaty Richard Lionhearted made with Islamic Sultan! The papacy will rule in Jerusalem/Babylon. The belief system all started with Nimrod and this is why the last three empires in Daniel were a part of the fourth beast!

 Rome actually followed Greece and Persian religions and combine them together. Rome did everything like Greece, and we do everything today like ancient Greece. Ancient Greece has Hellenized the Western world from our politic to our religious and philosophical thought. Our Medicine as well, we have held on to Latin names for our prescriptions. What made the fourth beast so different is he stamp the residue which a bear, brass nails and body of a leopard is Greece, iron teeth Rome and its head was a lion which is Neo-Babylon. Both Daniel and Revelation make this claim. Daniel and John saw the beast in different periods of time! Yet, they both saw the beast burning in the Lake of Fire!

The papacy is shown to be a stout fellow, then he plucks up from the root three kingdoms. Only a church kingdom still has power today. That is the Catholic church, that is a kingdom or country (the Vatican city), within a city of another country called Italy surrounded it is called the city of Rome. It has an army of Swiss soldiers (do not be fool by this small army force). It is the only church that is a part of the United Nation and has embassies all over the world except a few Islamic Countries. There a lot of Islamic embassies that are not in most countries of the world. Some Islamic countries don't even share embassies among each other.

 Finally, I heard that a lot of people do not feel that the Catholic Empire was a persecuting empire; we need to read history especially the crusades. They persecuted other believers, not of their faith,  also the Jews, and the Muslims. They burned people a lot but no one accepts terrorist Muslims torture people today.

 Nowhere in the Bible does it state during the Time of Trouble people will be persecuted or beheaded. Let me explain a problem in translating the context structure of a sentence. Rev 20:4 translated by KJV states:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. KJV

 Now it would have most to think that people were beheaded who did not have the mark of the beast. Now let's look at another version:

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Berean Study Bible

 The way this is worded gives a different picture, so which version is correct? To find the answer is to see if another Scripture basically says the same thing.

And the seventh from Adam, Enoch, also prophesied to these men, saying, Behold, THE MASTER comes with ten thousands of HIS saints, to execute judgment upon all; and to convict all the wicked, because of all the deeds they have wickedly committed; and because of all the harsh words, which the unrighteous sinners have spoken. Jude 1:14, 15

Now the Bible shows clearly also in 2 Thess 4:16 that the righteous dead who are asleep will awake, along with those who are living and all taken together to Heaven. This shows that the righteous saints of all ages are judging the wicked. So the Berean Study Bible and many others are stating it like it actually means.

Blessings and happy Sabbath!

 

 

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hch
On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 4:46 PM, TrevorL said:

Greetings again hch,

Many claim Holy Spirit guidance, but the results from two people thus guided are contradictory. My mate that I mentioned before, came to a difficulty in his exposition of Isaiah 6, and he wrote as if praying, “what is the solution here” and then writes “thank You”, and gives an outrageous concept. I am not sure if he was relying on the Holy Spirit or prayer, but I assume he is still locked into this decisive moment.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

Hey Trevor,

It is unfortunate that you had that bad encounter with  your mate. It can impact you experiences with others. Perhaps you will hear something that is true, but different from what you have learned, and pigeon hole something that is very important into the boxes with the errors that your mate presented. The old adage is that little foxes spoil the vine. 

I awoke this morning with insights that I have shared before ringing in my head in settings that made them so clear that I wonder how to and where to present them. The bottom line is:

My favorite author said that if you want to understand the formation of the image beast you must study the beast, and wow...

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hch
On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 3:23 PM, phkrause said:

My belief is that Armageddon is a spiritual battle between God and his angels and Satan and his angels!! Good vs Evil. Not a literal war between people!!


Surely Armageddon is a spiritual battle, but the spiritual realm has spilled over to the realm of mortals in the past. IMHO, if we should spiritualize away the literal fulfillment of prophecy and fail to prepare ourselves and others, we will miss a blessing as did Peter when the spiritual battle between Christ and Satan climaxed on Calvary.

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TrevorL

Greetings again hch,

 

5 hours ago, hch said:

It is unfortunate that you had that bad encounter with  your mate. It can impact you experiences with others. Perhaps you will hear something that is true, but different from what you have learned, and pigeon hole something that is very important into the boxes with the errors that your mate presented. The old adage is that little foxes spoil the vine. 

Yes it can impact how I view other suggestions. One of the reasons that you reminded me of my mate is that apart from a few other theories, and I will not disclose his larger overall view on Isaiah and another fairly large view on Nahum, he also interpreted current or recent events as fulfilment of Scripture. I will give two examples, but I hope that you or anyone else will not take this up as correct. In Zechariah 9:5 it says “the king shall perish from Gaza”, and my mate stated that this is referring to the death of Yassar Arafat and the fiery flying serpents of Isaiah’s prophecy were the scud missiles that Iraq fired at Israel. SDAs most probably do not look for events relating to today's Israel and this may seem more obscure. I hope you do not think this too negative, but I see a similar type of application to your 4 metals being 4 endtime Presidents of the US, and this seems to be obscure as my religious environment has not considered the US as having a part from Revelation 13 as per SDA belief. So comparing your view to my mates, possibly yours is a little more radical.

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 12:41 AM, hch said:

Lots of people have difficulty applying Daniel 2 to our time, i.e., 4 endtime American presidents. And some here have scoffed me for my biblical interpretations calling it everything but reliable. But I continue to study.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

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phkrause

I found an interesting article on the 1260 year prophecy by Nicholas Miller, in the Adventist Journey magazine.

As our friend Gregory says in many of his posts, "I believe this article has much merit to consider." (I know its not a exact quote, but closer to a paraphrase. 😀)

https://www.adventistworld.org/understanding-the-1260-year-prophecy/

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stinsonmarri
7 hours ago, hch said:

My belief is that Armageddon is a spiritual battle between God and his angels and Satan and his angels!! Good vs Evil. Not a literal war between people!!

The Bible makes it very clear about the last two battles that take place. The first one is part of the Sixth vial specifically dealing with the beast. It is before the Seventh vial that will be poured out! The war of Armageddon takes place and it is between the beast and the whore. Read Chapter 17, 18. Here is what the Bible says very clearly.

The Seven Bowls of YAHWEH THE FATHER’S Wrath

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that Great day of EL SHADDAI.  Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walks naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. Rev 16:13-16 

You cannot get any clearer because while this battle takes place, YAHSHUA is on HIS way to earth. And then the Bible states this:

The Marriage Supper of THE LAMB!

And I saw Heaven opened, and behold a white horse, and HE that sat upon him was called FAITHFUL and TRUE, and in RIGHTEOUSNESS HE doth judge and make war. HIS EYES were as a flame of fire, and on HIS HEAD were many Crowns; and HE had A NAME written, that no man knew, but HE HIMSELF. And HE was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and HIS NAME is called THE WORD of EL SHADDAI. And the armies which were in Heaven followed HIM upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of HIS MOUTH goeth a sharp sword, that with it HE should smite the nations: and HE shall rule them with a rod of iron: and HE treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of EL SHADDAI. And HE hath on HIS vesture and on HIS THIGH A NAME written, KING OF KINGS, AND SOVEREIGN OF SOVEREIGNS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of THE GREAT EL SHADDAI; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against HIM that sat on the horse, and against HIS army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Rev 19: 11-21 

Now it is clear both wars actually happen! One of the unclean spirits of Satan and the other the Triumph victory of THE LAMB with HIS NEW! AMEN!

Blessings!

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The Wanderer
1 hour ago, phkrause said:

I found an interesting article on the 1260 year prophecy by Nicholas Miller, in the Adventist Journey magazine.

As our friend Gregory says in many of his posts, "I believe this article has much merit to consider." (I know its not a exact quote, but closer to a paraphrase. 😀)

https://www.adventistworld.org/understanding-the-1260-year-prophecy/

Gregory usually says "value" not "merit." :D

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The Wanderer
51 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

The Bible makes it very clear about the last two battles that take place.

I am finding your views as expressed on this very confusing. That doesnt need to mean they actually are confusing; just means that I find it confusing.

First of all what is it that is "very clear" about the symbolic language and types used in the Bible passage regarding "unclean frogs?" And other related topics.

Rev 16 does not seem to me to be saying this battle re the "unclean spirits working miracles," takes place at the same time as the second coming. Can you explain how you get that from Rev 16? I am not able to figure it. Thank you in advance for your effort. :)

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The Wanderer
59 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

The Marriage Supper of THE LAMB!

I was under the impression that this "supper" takes place after the second coming. How do you place this kind of timing for "final events? I dont see it in the text itself??

1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

Now it is clear both wars actually happen!

This "marriage supper" doesnt sound like a "war" to me!

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The Wanderer
On 1/7/2019 at 12:52 PM, JoeMo said:

Why would you say that?  When Daniel was written, there were no chapters and verses - the book was a continuous narrative.  With that in mind, the little horn should be the same power if the book is to be taken in context. Could it be that the little horn represents a power that is both a powerful theocracy AND an intimidating military presence?

Maybe we should just go with what the Mormons teach here:

Quote

 

Revelation 12–16

“Chapter 55: Revelation 12–16,” New Testament Student Manual (2018)
Introduction and Timeline for Revelation 12–16

In Revelation 12–16, John described in some detail the war that Satan wages against God and His faithful Saints, which began in the premortal world and continues in mortality. In spite of the fearful events described in these chapters, there are great reasons to hope and rejoice. John the Revelator assured his readers that although Satan makes war with the Saints of God, they can be victorious. We can overcome Satan by relying on the Atonement of Jesus Christ, living so that our names are written in the Lamb’s book of life, and keeping the covenants we make with God. As we are faithful in these ways, we will also receive protection from the plagues to be poured out upon the earth. We also learn in these chapters that God restored the gospel of Jesus Christ to the earth in order to help His children withstand and overcome these tribulations in the last days.

Rather than attempting to specify an exact identity of the beast, it may be more profitable to note the following general characteristics about the beast: It had power over many nations (see Revelation 13:1, 7); it opposed God and blasphemed against Him (see verses 5–6); the power it wielded was like the power that predatory animals have over their prey (see verse 2); Satan gave it power (see verses 2, 4); people of the world worshipped or followed the beast (see verse 4); and it was able to overpower many, including the Saints (see verse 7). It could be said that any kingdom or government that exhibits these characteristics manifests the spirit of the beast. Revelation 17:8–12 contains additional information about the beast, including its ultimate destruction. SOURCE

 

Do we really NEED a specific identity for "the beast" or the mark thereof when the Bible clearly does not even give us one? What should we tell people who do not see any "value" in specifically identifying "the beast" or "the little horn" of Bible prophecy?

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