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Gregory Matthews

Doug Batchelor and IQ

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Gregory Matthews

In the following video, Doug Batchelor suggests that on the average, males score 5 points higher on an IQ test than do females.

https://atoday.org/at/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Doug-Batchelor-Women-Pastors-_-A-Biblical-Perspective.mp4

My comment as one who has studied IQ tests on the graduate level:

The idea behind  IQ tests is that they are not subject to any kind of bias--cultural, education, social, and more.  In actual fact,  they are imperfect and seem to have some built-in bias in several areas.  This is recognized and not thought to indicate an actual deficit in intelligence.

In short:  A 5-point difference, if it exists, is not thought to indicate a difference in intelligence between males and females.

NOTE:  Another link to the DB video may be found at:

https://atoday.org/a-fully-gendered-hermeneutic-chapter-2-2/

 

 

 

 

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The Wanderer

I am sorry Pastor Doug, but my wife's IQ is way higher than mine; and you have nothing to say about that.

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phkrause

I didn't hear him say "according to DB, men have a higher IQ than women!" What I heard was that according to a British Journal!! Also just taking a little blurb from one of his Q&A lectures doesn't help either. And besides my wife's IQ is higher than mine, but according to the British Journal, not DB, men on average have higher IQs. I believe that there are other factors that make some smarter than others! Also this pitting one pastor (DB) against another (LS) is the lowest class of behavior for our church or any other churches!! I find garbage like that very degrading of people who are better than that!

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The Wanderer
2 hours ago, phkrause said:

but according to the British Journal, not DB,

well why on earth would it NOT be from DB if he is repeating it? This "lowest class of behavior," might be a little higher than we care to admit.

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B/W Photodude

Sometime in the past, it was discovered that there were members of Mensa (That society for supersmart people) who were also members of the NAZI party. I suspect there will be many "not so smart" people who will be in heaven. So, how does all that smartness really help some people?

Which also brings me to a question I have wondered in the past regarding how being really smart affects your religious experience and even your ability to follow God with all your heart. Seems some have noted that being smarter makes it more likely you will fail in your Christian walk. Solomon is a good example, if you are going to check out how another person failed.

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The Wanderer
18 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Gregory, I did not see any video at this url; also nothing by Doug Batchelor. I think the topic of this thread is very misleading. Nothing I have seen at the links you cited implicates Pastor Doug in such theories about IQ. Do you just not like the man or was this a mistake?

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The Wanderer
12 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I am sorry Pastor Doug, but my wife's IQ is way higher than mine; and you have nothing to say about that.

Had I gone beyond just taking Gregory's word for this topic in the OP I never would have adressed this post at DB like this. Seems someone is mixed up with their references.

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The Wanderer
18 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

this is a short audio clip not really a video. All DB did was to quote a British medical journal and wonder out loud what it meant or could mean if men have more neurons in certain areas of the brain than women. Sometimes, especially from illness or injury, areas of the brain can and do get damaged, and in said cases, many of such are super intelligent. I hope this isnt being used as yet another ruse for "womens" ordination .

Women are in pastoral ministry now; I will be calling a woman Pastor soon for something! Im not "against" them. Just the Ordinater Arguers and their trumped up , weaponized scripture quoting.

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Gregory Matthews

There is a short video there.

The links that I provided do not give you access to the video and I do now know why.


The links that I provided gave me access to the video.

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Gregory Matthews

see:

https://atoday.org/a-fully-gendered-hermeneutic-chapter-2-2/

If you go to that Adventist Today website, open the article and click on the embedded link titled "according to Doug Batchelor, inferior IQ"  you should be able to view the video of DB.  At least I can do so.

For some reason, it does if you click on any link that I have posted in this thread, you only get an audio.  I do not understand.

 

Well, I just tried it on the link above and it worked.  It did take me to the video.   

 

 

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phkrause

I also believe that if you go to the AFTV website you will find the whole IQ video series and not just the little blurb that in my opinion seems to take his comments out of context. I'll see if I can find the whole thing and post. You'll have to give me time to find it.

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B/W Photodude

You can't get much smarter than Lucifer and where did it get him! He will deceive everyone who does not have an abiding relationship with God before this controversy on earth is done. Your smarts will not save you.

However, do keep in mind that IQ tests only test for a limited number of intelligences. And some believe they test more for what is native to men. There are many different kinds of intelligence that are not tested. So, I would not want to walk out on a limb claiming men or women are smarter (there are more women and men [who need to hand in their man card] who will claim women are smarter). And I certainly would not use intelligence as an indicator of the WO question. Some might suspicion that that is where DB was going with that.

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JoeMo

EGW was never known for her stratospheric IQ; yet she was more in tune with God than a vast majority of people.  IQ tests do not measure spiritual "smarts". I have a high IQ; but I know lots of people with less worldly "smarts" than I have that are light-years ahead of me in spiritual "smarts".  God does not necessarily use the mentally gifted to spread his word.  He uses people full of the Holy Spirit (which, IMHO, a source of infinite spiritual "smarts").

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. "(1 Cor. 2:14)

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phkrause
9 hours ago, phkrause said:

I also believe that if you go to the AFTV website you will find the whole IQ video series and not just the little blurb that in my opinion seems to take his comments out of context. I'll see if I can find the whole thing and post. You'll have to give me time to find it.

It's actually call "MIQ" Most Important Questions. I haven't found the one I'm looking for yet!!

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Shane

Adventist Today is known for stirring up controversy and strife where there is peace and harmony.  So I am not a big fan of theirs.  I am not a big fan of DB either.  I don't know if men on average have an IQ of 5 points more than women but one study would not be enough to be conclusive on such an issue.  It certainly seems strange for a gospel minister to focus on such a thing.  Regardless, IQ tells only of ability to learn and not knowledge acquired.    Those with higher IQs are also more likely to suffer mental illness.

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rudywoofs (Pam)
On 1/6/2019 at 5:06 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

Doug Batchelor:  on the average, males score 5 points higher on an IQ test than do females

he's using data from an old 2005 study by Irwing and Lynn.... 

But aside from that, what is notably absent from from Batchelor's statement, is the study's difference in standard deviation for men vs women.  Males' scores were spread out over the curve, whereas females tended to cluster around the mean — meaning males may have more "geniuses," but they also have more of significantly lower intelligence than women.

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The Wanderer
53 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

standard deviation for men vs women. 

I get what you are trying to say here; however, IMO "standard" is the wrong word to reflect perceived deviations between men and women. Said "deviations" are so subjective; I often wonder how anyone (eg Doug Batchelor) can even bother with such mantra to "prove" some theological point.

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rudywoofs (Pam)

erhmmm.... I was referring to the statistical meaning of "standard deviation"...

 

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B/W Photodude
26 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I get what you are trying to say here; however, IMO "standard" is the wrong word to reflect perceived deviations between men and women. Said "deviations" are so subjective; I often wonder how anyone (eg Doug Batchelor) can even bother with such mantra to "prove" some theological point.

Intelligence is such a complicated topic, especially to try and compare different groups. As I noted before, IQ tests only look at a limited number of kinds of intelligence and may not even really look at the types of intelligence that women have versus what men have although both can excel in the other sexes special intelligences very well.

You can draw inaccurate conclusions when you try to quickly look thru articles on intelligence or scan the bell curves images for intelligence. Especially when the party putting out the bell curve presents them in such a way as to cause the uninformed to draw hasty inaccurate conclusions. I tend to think that any effort to promote either sex over the other in terms of intelligence is a foolish venture. This gets even more complicated as researchers can now even see differences in brain function generally between men and women.

The part that DB should have considered is that doing the work that God has assigned is not dependent on the exact number of your IQ test results. Someone wholly devoted to doing God's will but of average intelligence can do a far more effective work than a very intelligent person who knows how smart they are can do. Where's the humility?!

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JoeMo
16 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

IMO "standard" is the wrong word to reflect perceived deviations between men and women.

Standard deviation is calculated by a precise mathematical formula whose results are based solely on the distribution of the variable being measured.  

Assuming a normal distribution, the standard deviation is given by the formula: s means 'standard deviation'. Now, subtract the mean (average) individually from each of the numbers given and square the result.

 

image.png

The formula is totally agnostic to the data being analyzed, and is deterministically accurate for all normal distributions.

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Gregory Matthews

A normal distribution  of data is considered to be a so-called "bell curve."  This is just one of the mathematical standards by which research data is subjected to in an attempt to determine validity, reliability and more.  While the research data may be subject to bias itself, the standard deviation is subject only to the data and  of itself is not subject to bias. 

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The Wanderer
4 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

While the research data may be subject to bias itself, the standard deviation is subject only to the data and  of itself is not subject to bias. 

alright, this is an honest question - not to argue, just because I actually dont know. IF the "data" in and of itself can be subject to "bias" and other similar things; how then can we say that the "standard deviation" cannot be subject to "bias?"  That sounds convoluted to me. And yes. Math was never a strong subject for me; except for the pharmacology related math I had to do in nursing. But I would like to understand this better. It doesnt sound to me like its even a matter of "mathematics;" especially as it would relate to human intelligence/IQ?? How can the math not be prejudiced, if the data is prejudiced?

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The Wanderer
5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

image.png

The formula is totally agnostic to the data being analyzed, and is deterministically accurate for all normal distributions.

It looks like you got this equation formula from the following: SOURCE
 

Quote

 

Population Standard Deviation

The population standard deviation, the standard definition of σ, is used when an entire population can be measured, and is the square root of the variance of a given data set. In cases where every member of a population can be sampled, the following equation can be used to find the standard deviation of the entire population:

 

One of my quandaries here is simply that most "standard deviations" may not in fact be so "standard" as I have rarely seen examples of same where an "entire population demographic"  is sampled from. I am probably in over my pay grade on this topic anyways, so I depend upon the infinite patience and love of my fellow forum members. :)

Edited by The Wanderer

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