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Christians Need To Stop Assuming LGBT Sin Matters More Than God’s Mercy

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B/W Photodude

Christians Need To Stop Assuming LGBT Sin Matters More Than God’s Mercy

To believe that Christ is your savior, you have to believe he has saved you from something, which sinners will never understand if Mama Church keeps telling Papa God to have a Snickers every time he’s acting a little too Old-Testamenty.

http://thefederalist.com/2019/03/14/christians-need-stop-assuming-lgbt-sin-matters-gods-mercy/

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The Wanderer
2 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Christians Need To Stop Assuming LGBT Sin Matters More Than God’s Mercy

To believe that Christ is your savior, you have to believe he has saved you from something, which sinners will never understand if Mama Church keeps telling Papa God to have a Snickers every time he’s acting a little too Old-Testamenty.

http://thefederalist.com/2019/03/14/christians-need-stop-assuming-lgbt-sin-matters-gods-mercy/

I seriously do not get the point of this article; and I did read the whole thing? Am I losing it, or was there an actionable point to the diatribe? Or, perhaps I could ask: Did you have a reason for posting this, is there a point you are trying to make?

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JoeMo

I thought it was a fairly good article trying to say that Jesus died to save everybody; not just straight people; but you have to allow His saving grace to work through you to cleanse you of your impurities.  Although the article specifically dealt with LGBT, no matter what our pet sin is, we need to allow Christ's grace to work those sins out of our system.  I think there is a difference between welcoming sinners into fellowship to give them exposure to the love, mercy, and moral compass provided by church and celebrating their sins by making them officers in the church or marrying them in the church.  Does that make sense?

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B/W Photodude
21 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I seriously do not get the point of this article; and I did read the whole thing? Am I losing it, or was there an actionable point to the diatribe? Or, perhaps I could ask: Did you have a reason for posting this, is there a point you are trying to make?

There was a point to the article, although they seemed to lose it by the end. I disagree with JoeMo's interpretation of the article.

So, start by seeing a couple of the referenced "Snicker" commercials, then we can get to the article:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UO2A2p-19A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP6XG-s32y8

Some quotes from the article:

it’s a statement that is perfectly consistent with the core creed of good old-fashioned American Christianity: “When Papa God is being too strict, have Mama Church talk some sense into him.”

For the average American who is somewhere on the church-going spectrum, his understanding of Christianity is something like this: God has promised to be our father, and we have promised to be his children. But the caveat of this covenant is that both parties must behave reasonably for it to remain unbroken. God will give us his kingdom if we are reasonably obedient to him, and we will give him our obedience if the things he commands seem reasonable.

When this happens, we then expect Mama Church to rebuke Papa God for his unreasonable devotion to his unchanging word, telling him, “I know you’ve always said these things were wrong, but everybody does them now. So cut the kid some slack.”

“Mama Church convinced straight people that they could still be Christians and continue pursuing the illicit sexual encounters that appealed to them, so why can’t we do the same for gay people?”

What I see the article taking to task is the position of many churches and even members of the SDA church is that sometimes God is too strict. People appeal to the church to loosen the restrictions by supposedly saying God didn't mean what he said. Unfortunately, many believe that feelings are more important than obedience to what is likely their eternal loss.

Another point I hear often is that heterosexuals are fornicating, so why can't gays?! It might just be me, but the take I get on it is that from the Bible is that heterosexuals, homosexuals, and all the various permutations of the various genders being invented today will go to perdition for immoral behaviors. 

God already proved his love for people by making it possible to be saved. He is under no obligation to approve fornication because someone is getting their feelings hurt.

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phkrause

I'm in agreement with your post B/W!!

I also, though, think that JoeMo's post was a fair thought on the article!!

What I didn't hear from the article, although I could be wrong, is as Jesus said to Mary after forgiving her, "go and sin no more!" I have no problem with showing kindness and love towards sinners, but I do have a problem with saying that certain sins are OK because that's the way we were born, etc.!!!! God's law is not stricter for some and less strict for others!! It's the same law each one is under!!

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Lone Ranger
33 minutes ago, phkrause said:

What I didn't hear from the article, although I could be wrong, is as Jesus said to Mary after forgiving her, "go and sin no more!" I have no problem with showing kindness and love towards sinners, but I do have a problem with saying that certain sins are OK because that's the way we were born, etc.!!!! God's law is not stricter for some and less strict for others!! It's the same law each one is under!!

Just my opinion, but I think that "go and sin no more," while an important principle/command (Wanderer, don't make a big thing out of that comment) is too often applied to those more visible or heinous sins that others do and not to the minor sins we all do. It applies equally to both. My life has been far more affected, and negatively, by the power-seeking control freeks and bullies in the church (especially leadership, but I will not belabor that point) who want everything their way, than by those whose gender attraction  is different than mine.

When you find that you have annoyed someone, do you try to anticipate like situations to avoid them? GO AND SIN NO MORE.

A soft answer turneth away wrath... GO AND SIN NO MORE.

When someone disagrees with you... GO AND SIN NO MORE.

When someone gets judged for...whatever...GO AND SIN NO MORE.

Its easy to say such and such LGBT/whatever cannot participate because of their lifestyle/whatever/whatever. It's a lot harder to keep the head elder/deacon/pastor from participating because they are control freeks/bullies/whatever.

P.S. I will not respond to nit-pics regarding this post.

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The Wanderer
14 minutes ago, Lone Ranger said:

too often applied to those more visible or heinous sins that others do and not to the minor sins we all do. It applies equally to both. My life has been far more affected, and negatively, by the power-seeking control freeks and bullies in the church (especially leadership, but I will not belabor that point) who want everything their way, than by those whose gender attraction  is different than mine.

Thank you for sharing your story, or, at least a small part of it. No one should feel like they cannot post what they need/want to here.

It might interest you to know that we indeed have a similar experience; especially with "leadership." I was told recently, by a "leader" in a church near you that I am "not saved" because I currently do not attend. He is "worried" about me, but the criticism/judging was so palpable...I serously think that with some, "go and sin no more" is just "for other people."

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Lone Ranger
11 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

 "worried" about: 

In Advent speak, a compound verb implying or indicating a lack of control, as in "I'm worried that I can't control you" or "I'm worried because I can't force you to see or understand everything EXACTLY  the way I do."

It falls into the same class of verb as "I'll pray for you" meaning I'll tell  God to change your thinking to be like mine.

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Gustave

LGBTQQAA, sin is simply the particular sin of those effected by those desires - at the end of the day God looks at those sexual sins no differently than sins within the heterosexual camp. The biggest issue we face as sinners is justifying that our OWN SIN ISN'T THAT BAD  because WE THINK it's less of an offensive / damming sin than the other persons -which couldn't be further from the truth.

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JoeMo
15 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

I disagree with JoeMo's interpretation of the article.

That's okay; maybe I misinterpreted the article.  I may not be tempted with "gayness", but there are other temptations in my life that I sometimes give in to that would likely get me kicked out of church (or at least any leadership position therein) if they became public knowledge because they became so much of a problem.  I tend to err on the side of mercy rather than judgement.  I have a very jaded past - so much so that I wonder at God's desire to save me.  As far as I am concerned, people with serious issues need God in their lives more than saints ( we all need God in our lives whether we realize it or not).  Most people (including must Christians) I know have a chronic sin problem in some sort of their lives.  Whether it's a problem with what most people call "little sins" or "big sins", they're still sins.  If we got rid of all the sinners in the church, there wouldn't be many of us left.  Should mama church advise Papa God to be a little less harsh and more patient and understanding? NO! God has shown His infinite patience and understanding to us by offering His one and only Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.  Should the church be so stern as to exclude all those with a "sin problem" as a way to preserve the purity of the church? NO!  If they did it completely, the churches would be empty!  That being said, the way some people interpret Revelation and Daniel, Christian churches will be practically empty when Jesus returns.  Diminishing attendance to churches in the present day seems to be trending that way. 

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The Wanderer
1 hour ago, Lone Ranger said:

In Advent speak, a compound verb implying or indicating a lack of control, as in "I'm worried that I can't control you" or "I'm worried because I can't force you to see or understand everything EXACTLY  the way I do."

It falls into the same class of verb as "I'll pray for you" meaning I'll tell  God to change your thinking to be like mine.

I am also fortunate to have a few Adventist friends who are the opposite to this; when they say "Ill pray for you," they are very specific and helpful, I can see they actually listen to what my concern is; a true blessing. But, sad to say, my experience with being told I am "not saved" is all-too common. While I am tired of always "failing" the test, I remain hopeful and rejoice in the friends I do have who pray sincerely and effectively.

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The Wanderer
1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

I am also fortunate to have a few Adventist friends who are the opposite to this; when they say "Ill pray for you," they are very specific and helpful, I can see they actually listen to what my concern is; a true blessing. But, sad to say, my experience with being told I am "not saved" is all-too common. While I am tired of always "failing" the test, I remain hopeful and rejoice in the friends I do have who pray sincerely and effectively.

I am avoiding saying what church I was talking about for privacy reasons.

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The Wanderer
35 minutes ago, Gustave said:

LGBTQQAA, sin is simply the particular sin of those effected by those desires - at the end of the day God looks at those sexual sins no differently than sins within the heterosexual camp. The biggest issue we face as sinners is justifying that our OWN SIN ISN'T THAT BAD  because WE THINK it's less of an offensive / damming sin than the other persons -which couldn't be further from the truth.

correct me if Im wrong my friend, but doesnt the RCC teach some form of some sins are better than others? "cardinal sins," "venial sins" stuff like that? I seem to remember my Grandmother, who was Catholic saying something about that?  Please dont take that question personally, its not intended, that way, its just the question that popped into my mind. Im sure you can clarify. :)

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JoeMo
1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

But, sad to say, my experience with being told I am "not saved" is all-too common.

The people who tell you that have a much larger problem than you do.  Who are they or anyone else to judge you?  God is the ultimate judge.  You can choose to let their words influence you or let God's promises influence you.  Are you rough around the edges? I think so!  Do you have a passionate love for God and His Word? I think so!  Does God love you as a son? I don't need to think about that - I'd say definitely yes!

At least He tolerates you! :rollingsmile:

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The Wanderer
28 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

That being said, the way some people interpret Revelation and Daniel, Christian churches will be practically empty when Jesus returns.  Diminishing attendance to churches in the present day seems to be trending that way. 

I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8)

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Lone Ranger
13 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

While I am tired of always "failing" the test, 

What test? 

Galatians 3:3 "Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to gain your goal by human effort?"

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Lone Ranger
3 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Are you rough around the edges?

I have a few rough spots, some of which I hone to a sharp edged. 

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Lone Ranger
15 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

correct me if Im wrong my friend, but doesnt the RCC teach some form of some sins are better than others? "cardinal sins," "venial sins" stuff like that? I seem to remember my Grandmother, who was Catholic saying something about that?  Please dont take that question personally, its not intended, that way, its just the question that popped into my mind. Im sure you can clarify. :)

As an aside, 1 John 5:16, 17 does seem to indicate that not all sins are equal and that there may be categories or "levels" of sin.

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Gustave
44 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

correct me if Im wrong my friend, but doesnt the RCC teach some form of some sins are better than others? "cardinal sins," "venial sins" stuff like that? I seem to remember my Grandmother, who was Catholic saying something about that?  Please dont take that question personally, its not intended, that way, its just the question that popped into my mind. Im sure you can clarify. :)

1 John 5, 16: If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God[b] will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.  All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

 

Venial Vs MORTAL or Deadly sin.

What I'm saying is that I'm guilty of committing deadly sin and in truth probably everyone reading this thread is as well. A sexual sin is one within the lust category and I'm thinking that King David's sin when he slept with another man's wife was just as deadly as a gay man who buggered another man. King David was contrite just as a queer who engages in homosexual can be contrite. 

What I'm saying is that there are many folks who actually think because they are not attracted to the same sex it means that their desire to have sex with the opposite sex is in some way less of a sin (because it's natural for men to be attracted to women). The reality is that for a real gay person their desire for the same sex can be just as "natural" because to them it is natural.  

We are all essentially "in the soup" together as far as sin is concerned. I think this was part of Jesus' teaching when He told the mob that whoever within it was not guilty of sin to throw the 1st rock at the woman. Essentially saying IF GOD has forgiven this woman for what she did how dare anyone else for not forgiving her. 

 

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Gustave

Just found this, he explains it better than I did. I realize that he says some things SDA's wouldn't agree with such as confession however what he's saying about the difference of the kinds of sin may give you a better idea of what some people believe about it. 

 

 

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Lone Ranger

While you are correct re: minor disagreements he does do a good job of explaining the contrast between venial sins vs mortal sins. However, to me the best part of the video was Father Mike's insistence that we are never beyond the grace of God.

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The Wanderer
2 hours ago, Gustave said:

Just found this, he explains it better than I did. I realize that he says some things SDA's wouldn't agree with such as confession however what he's saying about the difference of the kinds of sin may give you a better idea of what some people believe about it.

Well, thanks for enclosing that video. IMO his only "saving grace" for the message of that video was as LR has said that no one is beyond the grace of God. I got mixed messages from it, to make the longer story shorter.

The message basically reinforced the existential dilemna I characterized above by stating its a "mortal sin" to not go to church. As one of my Adventist cohorts said: "I am not saved" because of that.

Would your church say something similar? I have some other questions but that will depend on time & energy

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Gustave
1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

Well, thanks for enclosing that video. IMO his only "saving grace" for the message of that video was as LR has said that no one is beyond the grace of God. I got mixed messages from it, to make the longer story shorter.

The message basically reinforced the existential dilemna I characterized above by stating its a "mortal sin" to not go to church. As one of my Adventist cohorts said: "I am not saved" because of that.

Would your church say something similar? I have some other questions but that will depend on time & energy

It would say something similar and absolutely DOES. I say this from experience as I've gotten the same comments directed at me that evidently you have.   Some things I have an issue with and that (almost superstitious belief one HAS to attend organized religion) is certainly one of them. I think I know what you mean,

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The Wanderer
1 hour ago, Gustave said:

I have an issue with and that (almost superstitious belief one HAS to attend organized religion) is certainly one of them. I think I know what you mean,

Well; it might be of some comfort for you to know that you are not alone in that. With Adventists, it is often thought that one is "breaking the Sabbath" when they dont attend. Of course, if one is in leadership, THAT picture gets uglier.

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