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Stan

New York Court Upholds Emergency Mandatory Vaccination

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Stan

Taking the significance of the public health emergency and religious beliefs into account when deciding what to do in these circumstances is difficult. It is too easy to dismiss religious claims as unscientific and foolish in the face of a measles outbreak, but in so doing it behooves the parties to seek a compromise

The post New York Court Upholds Emergency Mandatory Vaccination appeared first on ReligiousLiberty.TV - Celebrating Liberty of Conscience.

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B/W Photodude
24 minutes ago, Stan said:

Taking the significance of the public health emergency and religious beliefs into account when deciding what to do in these circumstances is difficult. It is too easy to dismiss religious claims as unscientific and foolish in the face of a measles outbreak, but in so doing it behooves the parties to seek a compromise

The post New York Court Upholds Emergency Mandatory Vaccination

People seem to be unaware of how dangerous certain diseases are. While this article is a bit old, some sources now put the death toll to over 1200 children. Do we need this here, or for that matter ... anywhere?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-madagascar-measles/nearly-1000-madagascar-children-dead-of-measles-since-october-who-idUSKCN1Q3246

Screen Shot 2019-04-23 at 11.34.45.jpg

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Narcah

My body, my choice. Unless it’s forced medical procedures and injecting chemicals with horrific side effects.  It’s literally a basic human right to make your own medical decisions. 

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rudywoofs (Pam)
2 hours ago, Narcah said:

My body, my choice. Unless it’s forced medical procedures and injecting chemicals with horrific side effects.  It’s literally a basic human right to make your own medical decisions. 

And how do you reconcile that mantra when it could mean the death of someone else?  Simply, "oh well"?

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phkrause
7 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

And how do you reconcile that mantra when it could mean the death of someone else?  Simply, "oh well"?

Exactly, people don't seem to be able to the the evidence before there eyes!! All these diseases have been pretty much eradicated, as long as everyone was doing the shots, now there coming back, because foolish people are not allowing there children to take there shots!!

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Narcah

If vaccines work so well it won’t be my choice killing someone else. 

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Gregory Matthews

Vaccines do not work on people who have not be vaccinated.

If you have not been vaccinated, you may get a disease that you can  transmit to another person who has not been vaccinated, and one or both of you may die of that disease.  E.G.  You may cause the death of a young child who then dies.

 

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Gregory Matthews

Narcah said in the quote below:

*  That quote reflects a misunderstanding of the ethical issues.

NOTE:  I am speaking from the standpoint of almost 20 years on a hospital ethics committee.

*   It is considered a basic human right to make a medical decision about your clinical care, If you are competent, understand the consequences of the decision and have reached the legal age of majority.  If any of these are not true, you are not considered to ipso facto have that right.

*  You may not have that right when your decision involves the rights that other people have.

*  In addition, society may have the right to decide  how   your right to decide is applied.  IOW your right to decide may not be exercised in the exact manner in which you would have wanted it done.  E.G.  You may have stated that you do not want aggressive clinical care to keep you alive, should a specific situation arise.  You may be provided that aggressive care for a period of time and your decision not to have that care, may not be put in place for a period of time.  I can give you examples of such.

*  I will give you one such example:  An elderly man came to the ED in a coma after ingesting ethylene glycol.  We began  aggressive treatment.  Eight (8) family members met with the hospital, informed us that the  man would not want that aggressive treatment, and demanded that we stop providing it.  Our physicians and attorney advised them that we were going to continue.  They immediately informed us that they would file a lawsuit, and they were informed that we were going to continue for a limited period of time.  The result was that he was restored to health and walked out of the hospital.  He did not have an actionable case under the law and  the hospital was not sued.

It’s literally a basic human right to make your own medical decisions. 

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Narcah

Actually it is my right to enjoy medical autonomy.  I’ll enjoy my autonomy, you enjoy yours, and if you want to be vaccinated and cannot, consider yourself fortunate. 

 

I refuse to put aborted fetus dna into my body.  https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-ingredients/dna

 

(Notice: not a quack website, they don’t deny there is fetus dna in vaccines, they use cover phrase “not likely to happen.”  Because they simply don’t know the long term effects. 

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Gregory Matthews

Narcah, the following is a quote from your cited website.

Essentially it is saying that the original DNA is so broken up that it is no longer DNA.  Properly understood, you are not putting human DNA from a fetus into your body   when you are vaccinated.

 

 

Because the DNA is fragmented, it cannot possibly create a whole protein.

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Gregory Matthews

Let me illustrate my statement above:

If you cut a loaf of bread into pieces, each piece is still bread. But that is not the way it works in chemistry and in genetics.

If you break common table salt into its constituent pieces you get sodium and chlorine, you do not get salt.  Same way in genetics.  A strand of DNA broken into its constituent  parts does not give you DNA.

 

 

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B/W Photodude
On 5/4/2019 at 8:36 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

*   It is considered a basic human right to make a medical decision about your clinical care, If you are competent, understand the consequences of the decision and have reached the legal age of majority.  If any of these are not true, you are not considered to ipso facto have that right.

*  You may not have that right when your decision involves the rights that other people have.

*  I will give you one such example:  An elderly man came to the ED in a coma after ingesting ethylene glycol.  We began  aggressive treatment.  Eight (8) family members met with the hospital, informed us that the  man would not want that aggressive treatment, and demanded that we stop providing it.  Our physicians and attorney advised them that we were going to continue.  They immediately informed us that they would file a lawsuit, and they were informed that we were going to continue for a limited period of time.  The result was that he was restored to health and walked out of the hospital.  He did not have an actionable case under the law and  the hospital was not sued.

A couple of things are missing from the above scenario. Since he was unable to answer for himself, then it depends on who has power of attorney, and by that I mean written directions of how to care for him when incapacitated. The hospital seems to have chosen to treat him and things turned out well. Lucky for them. Or, they were able to determine that although he was unresponsive, his poisoning was treatable. It may also vary by state what the legal ramifications are. However, he could have been left alive but in a state of incapacity. The hospital may have become liable. However, not to treat him also could have been bad. Eight people saying no does not preclude many other relatives saying "yes, treat him." Moral of the story, all kinds of bad things can happen if you don't write things down and have a trusted person to answer for you in life threatening situations.

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B/W Photodude
6 hours ago, Narcah said:

Actually it is my right to enjoy medical autonomy.  I’ll enjoy my autonomy, you enjoy yours, and if you want to be vaccinated and cannot, consider yourself fortunate.

There are all kinds of autonomies you may want, but you don't get to exercise them around other people. You may have to go somewhere where vaccinations are not required. Plenty of countries around the world do not require vaccinations. You may also consider just moving way away from everyone, order everything online, and have it dropped off at the end of your very own long, long driveway!

That medical autonomy thing is problematic. Many smokers do not want to quit smoking. It is their right! But when they come down with life threatening illnesses, who pays. Most people do not pay out of their pocket for serious illnesses. Either insurance or the public picks up the tab. Many would like to see healthcare withheld from people who engage in self-injuring activities, but where will that end? All kinds of things have been outlawed because of the strain on social resources to cover the lack of people to cooperating with their own safety. One of the reasons you now must wear seatbelts. YOur autonomy with that will get you traffic tickets. (But it's my right!)

The list gets longer of all the things that have become required of people who have to live in close proximetry to everyone around them.

Riddle:  What do you call a temper tantrum in a three year old child?

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B/W Photodude
1 hour ago, B/W Photodude said:

Riddle:  What do you call a temper tantrum in a three year old child?

Opps! Forgot a word.

What do you call a temper tantrum in a three year old unvaccinated child?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mid-life crisis.

Message me if you don't get it.

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Narcah
4 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

well, its actually not your right if it would affect the health of other members of the general public. IMO the one exception would be the flu vaccine, so called  

 

 

If vaccines work so well, why are those vaccinated so scared of those who are not?  Proof is in the pudding, and please don’t go on about herd immunity, it’s simply a buzz word to get people to accept government forces medical procedures. 

 

I am am actually more afraid of recently shedding vaccinated people infecting heathy people. We must demand that recently vaccinated people are quarantined for our health! 

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/04/measles-outbreak-traced-fully-vaccinated-patient-first-time

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Narcah
9 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Let me illustrate my statement above:

If you cut a loaf of bread into pieces, each piece is still bread. But that is not the way it works in chemistry and in genetics.

If you break common table salt into its constituent pieces you get sodium and chlorine, you do not get salt.  Same way in genetics.  A strand of DNA broken into its constituent  parts does not give you DNA.

 

 

That sounds nice, but it’s still HUMAN dna from fetuses being injected. I morally object to that, and so do a whole lot of other people. 

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rudywoofs (Pam)
15 hours ago, Narcah said:

If vaccines work so well, why are those vaccinated so scared of those who are not?

because merrily and/or obliviously spreading disease isn't an attribute to which most people want to expose themselves.... vaccines are highly effective, but not 100%.  Furthermore, those who haven't completed the course of a vaccine inoculation are not well protected, not to mention infants who are extremely susceptible to contagious diseases.  It's beyond me how anti-vaxxers who've been exposed can carry a disease, expose others, and not care about how their actions can have catastrophic effects on other people.  Unbelievable.... and selfish, imo.

 

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phkrause
2 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

because merrily and/or obliviously spreading disease isn't an attribute to which most people want to expose themselves.... vaccines are highly effective, but not 100%.  Furthermore, those who haven't completed the course of a vaccine inoculation are not well protected, not to mention infants who are extremely susceptible to contagious diseases.  It's beyond me how anti-vaxxers who've been exposed can carry a disease, expose others, and not care about how their actions can have catastrophic effects on other people.  Unbelievable.... and selfish, imo.

Exactly Pam!!! They don't seem to be any smarter than those that smoke!!!!!

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B/W Photodude
On 5/11/2019 at 8:45 PM, Narcah said:

If vaccines work so well, why are those vaccinated so scared of those who are not?  Proof is in the pudding, and please don’t go on about herd immunity, it’s simply a buzz word to get people to accept government forces medical procedures. 

I am am actually more afraid of recently shedding vaccinated people infecting heathy people.

When dealing with a large number, there will always be the exceptional slip thru on effectiveness. A similar situation was widely claimed with the seat belt laws. Many were afraid of being trapped and burned in an accident. My mother was one such person. But driving home after work, she fell asleep at the whel and they had to dig her out from under the steering wheel in a VW beetle. She spent weeks in an ICU. And she still refused to wear her seatbelt after recovery! (She one pull it out and hold it over herself to shut off the alarms!) She would have been virtually uninjured if she had her seatbelt on. 

There are known problems with vaccines. If you are immunocompromised or never had your polio vaccine, stay away from a child who has received the Sabin vaccine which is a weakened live virus given orally. In the US, polio is inactivated (killed) virus. I remember when the Salk vaccine was introduced and was probably in the first waves of those receiving the vaccine in my part of the country. Jonas Salk is said to have released the vaccine without patent and losing huge amounts of personal wealth for the public benefit. 

I consider myself a bit of a vaccine junkie. I go for anything! When I was starting nursing school, I got a list of vaccines I needed. I got the measles vaccine as it came with the mumps vaccine. I previously had measles (red and German) when a preschooler. I also was told to get the polio vaccine. The office nurse wasn't on the ball and gave me the Sabin vaccine! Adults should never get the Sabin according the the rules at that time. I regularly get my flu shots, although my wife steadfastly refuses to get them.

During the Ebola "event", a nearby university announced they were going to trial some form of an Ebola vaccine. I said I was up for it. My wife said absolutely not! I didn't, but it was more of a distance thing.

Fortunately, I missed the draft during the Nam years, so missed out on the Whitecoat program. I knew more than one SDA who was in the program and was purposely infected with diseases and then the army tried to get them well! The Whitecoat program was a program operated by the Army where they do a lot of research in biological warfare (not the entire scope of their work). They took a lot of conscientious objectors (SDAs!) during the draft years and the Nam years.

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Narcah

I still find it very sad that people are willing to allow the government to forcibly inject them with anything, whether saline solution or harmful chemicals, when we surrender our human autonomy to the government,  we know the end is near. :)

I'm all for voluntary vaccinations, if you want to triple up on your vaccines and get every vaccine ever invented injected on a weekly basis more power to you.  Just don't tell me I have to do the same thing.

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JoeMo

The only time in over 10 years that I have got the flu is in years I got the flu vaccine.

I am of the belief that we all need a little "filth" in our lives to keep our immune system on its toes.  For example, I have no problem eating something I accidentally dropped on the floor ('5 second rule"); as long as it didn't fall sticky side down.  I also believe in going barefoot a lot.  Feet have some of the strongest immune responses of any part of the body.

That's not to say I am against vaccines.  In most cases, the risk of an adverse reaction to a vaccine is much lower than the risk of the disease one is being vaccinated against.  For example, the risk of catching measles and suffering permanent debilitating effects is much higher than the risk of getting vaccinated.  Same with polio.  But I don't know if I'm okay with the government making all vaccinations mandatory.

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JoeMo
On 4/27/2019 at 6:25 AM, Narcah said:

My body, my choice. Unless it’s forced medical procedures and injecting chemicals with horrific side effects.  It’s literally a basic human right to make your own medical decisions. 

And if your personal medical decisions endanger others - especially loved ones - is that okay?

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JoeMo
On 5/4/2019 at 4:29 AM, Narcah said:

If vaccines work so well it won’t be my choice killing someone else. 

Unless "someone else" is someone like you who doesn't believe in vaccines.

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B/W Photodude
On 5/11/2019 at 8:11 AM, Narcah said:

Actually it is my right to enjoy medical autonomy.  I’ll enjoy my autonomy, you enjoy yours, and if you want to be vaccinated and cannot, consider yourself fortunate. 

Actually, in a Christian sense, there is more to this situation. True, a person is entitled to their own individuality and autonomy especially in spiritual decisions. Religious freedom has been cherished by the SDA church and at times the bigger Christian community.

However, in the vaccination discussion, yes, there are downsides to vaccines, but even greater downsides to not being vaccinated. When you are living in a "herd", but insist on your own autonomy when it can be demonstrated that you are a danger to others, you are valuing your own self over others in the community and that does not go well with "love your neighbor as yourself." In fact, it is a very selfish position to take.

People die all the time for frequently hard to understand reasons, even children. I believe Jesus said he who saves his life shall lose it, but he who loses his life shall gain it. Not saying he was discussing vaccines, but measuring yourself more important than others would qualify. Sometimes you just gotta get over yourself!

9 hours ago, Narcah said:

I still find it very sad that people are willing to allow the government to forcibly inject them with anything,

Actually, the government is not forcing anything. It is just saying if you wish to remain part of the group you will demonstrate, what seems to be by all evidence, responsible caring behavior to your neighbor. As previously noted, if you do not wish to be vaccinated, leave the "herd." Find an isolated place to live or even a colony of anti-vaxxers!

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B/W Photodude
7 hours ago, JoeMo said:

The only time in over 10 years that I have got the flu is in years I got the flu vaccine.

I hear that a lot. People say they got the flu when they got the shot. I won't say you are not telling the truth, but I will say that there are in general a lot of problems with this idea.

First, people seem to call all respiratory illnesses the flu. I think the flu often gets blamed for common colds. 

People can get a flu like illness after a flu shot. I remember the swine flu incident of the 70s when they were worried about a really serious year of infections. I got the shot, and got "deathly" ill, for one night. I learned what the "chills" were.*

I have not heard of anyone dying of illness immediately after a flu shot. However, on average, over 10,000 people a year die of the flu. A very recent year was very hard on children with many (~200 last time I looked at the numbers) dead. A recent year had the doctors guessing which flu strain would be the problem in the year to come. They missed and while the flu shots were "helpful," they were unable to do their usual good job of protecting against the flu. Over 30,000 died from the flu.

I can remember years when the ICUs would be full of people respiratorily failing and being put on ventilators. We would be full to the max and a patient would come in and there were no ICU beds in the entire Phoenix metro. We were flying people out to San Diego for care. Last season, hospital parking lots were tent cities in Los Angeles for very sick flu victims. One of these years we are bound to have another pandemic like the flu of 1918 which killed millions. The Spanish flu pandemic of 1918, the deadliest in history, infected an estimated 500 million people worldwide—about one-third of the planet's population—and killed an estimated 20 million to 50 million victims, including some 675,000 Americans.

Here is a web page where you can follow the flu situation and even watch it come to your state. If you haven't gotten your shot, when it gets to your state it may be too late.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/index.htm

*When I got my list of vaccines for nursing school, typhoid was one of them. It was a two shot series. The first nite I again got really acquainted with fevers and chills. I prepared for the 2nd one. It was August. I got my 2nd shot. Ran home and grabbed my fur lined artic coat and went to the movies. Just hunkered down in my seat and enjoyed the movie with the chills, my artic coat, and all! Typhoid vaccines are no fun. But then neither is typhoid fever.

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