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hch

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hch
21 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I'm not belittling your commentary; I am belittling your judgement of a fellow member here.  If you don't wish to be personally criticized, don't personally criticize others.

When truth is stated and someone casts a shadow over the truth by saying that it is not true, it is not belittling them to call their actions into question. 

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We are living in a time when, the Word of God declares, Satan will come down with great power, to work with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish. He will work with such subtilty and power that, if it were possible, he would deceive the very elect. God's professed people need to heed the danger signals, and ever be on the watch.  {RH, April 2, 1908 par. 4}  

 

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He who studies the truth, who prayerfully opens the eyes of his understanding to see and his heart to receive the bright beams of the Sun of Righteousness, will be in harmony with the messenger and the message God sends. All the opposition, all the prejudice, all the suggestions of the enemy, will never make the truth less precious or less true. Only when men yield to the subtilty of the enemy does the truth become darkness to them. But even though the truth is opposed and spoken against by those who should be blessed, strengthened, and made joyful by it, its value and brightness is not lessened; for the Lord's messengers will hold up the telescope to the spiritual eye, that the truth may be seen from all points, and its value appreciated.  {1888 140.3}

 

10 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

EGW is not THE MOST HIGH!

 

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Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.  2 Chronicles 20:20

 

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slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:  Luke 24:25

 

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JoeMo
3 hours ago, hch said:

When truth is stated and someone casts a shadow over the truth by saying that it is not true, it is not belittling them to call their actions into question. 

So ... you are now the arbiter of truth on this website?  You are right and the rest of us are wrong? WOW!:scared:

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hch
2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

So ... you are now the arbiter of truth on this website?  You are right and the rest of us are wrong? WOW!:scared:

JoeMo,

As incredible as your presumptuous assumption is, it is but an effort to skirt around the issue: TRUTH.

When I assert that something is true and give Scripture and/or Spirit of Prophecy evidence to show why I believe it is true: All you have to do is to show from the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy where I am mistaken. (It is possible for me to misunderstand something or to see it out of focus).

So rather than continuing to belittle me, try showing where what I have written is wrong. Give some evidence to show that you are a Bible student rather than a parrot that says many impressive platitudes that are merely nonsensical because the parrot lacks the knowledge of what it is saying. In spite of its large vocabulary, it cannot put two thoughts together to have an intelligent conversation. 

For you to repeat assertions and assumptions and gibberish, is a waste of your brainpower. I look forward to reading something from your keyboard that challenges me to think beyond the superficial gibberish that is so common.

Christian Regards, 🙏

Hch

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stinsonmarri
11 hours ago, hch said:

EGW is not THE MOST HIGH!

11 hours ago, hch said:

Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.  2 Chronicles 20:20

HCH: This is my point exactly, here is what EGW said herself: 

Some have stumbled over the fact that I said I did not claim to be a prophet; and they have asked Why is this? I have had no claims to make, only that I am instructed that I am the Lord’s messenger; that HE called me in my youth to be HIS  messenger, to receive HIS Word, and to give a clear and decided message in the name of the Lord Jesus. 5BIO p. 357

 I have had no claims to make, only that I am instructed that I am God’s messenger; that He called me in my youth to be His messenger, to receive His word, and to give a clear and decided message in the name of the God.

"Early in my youth I was asked several times, Are you a prophet? I have ever responded, I am the God’s messenger. I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made no claim to this title. My Savior declared me to be His messenger. 'Your work,' He instructed me, 'is to bear My word. Strange things will arise, and in your youth I set you apart to bear the message to the erring ones, to carry the word before unbelievers, and with pen and voice to reprove from the Word actions that are not right. Exhort from the Word. I will make My Word open to you. It shall not be as a strange language. In the true eloquence of simplicity, with voice and pen, the messages that I give shall be heard from one who has never learned in the schools. My Spirit and My power shall be with you.' . . .

 "Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?--Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word 'prophet' signifies. . . .

 "To claim to be a prophetess is something that I have never done. If others call me by that name, I have no controversy with them. But my work has covered so many lines that I cannot call myself other than a messenger, sent to bear a message from the God to His people, and to take up work in any line that He points out.

 "When I was last in Battle Creek, I said before a large congregation that I did not claim to be a prophetess. Twice I referred to this matter, intending each time to make the statement, 'I do not claim to be a prophetess.' If I spoke otherwise than this, let all now understand that what I had in mind to say was that I do not claim the title of prophet or prophetess" (Review and Herald, July 26, 1906

 I understood that some were anxious to know if Mrs. White still held the same views that she did years ago when they had heard her speak in the sanitarium grove, in the Tabernacle, and at the camp meetings held in the suburbs of Battle Creek. I assured them that the message she bears today is the same that she has borne during the sixty years of her public ministry. She has the same service to do for t that was laid upon her in her girlhood. She receives lessons from the same Instructor. The directions given her are, "Make known to others what I have revealed to you. Write out the messages that I give you, that the people may have them." This is what she has endeavored to do. 1SM p. 35

Warning against Adding or Subtracting from the Bible (Hebraic Root Bible is used)

Every word of ELOHIYM is pure: HE is a shield unto them that put their trust in HIM. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Pro 30:5, 6 

To the law and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this Word, it is because there is no light in them. Isa 8:20 

None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity. Isa 59:4 

And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith YAHWEH ELOHIYM, when YAHWEH hath not spoken. Eze 22:28 

But HE answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the Commandment of ELOHIYM by your traditions? Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.  But falsely they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mat 15:3, 7-9 Hebraic Bible

These are murmured, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. Jude 1:16 

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, ELOHIYM shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, ELOHIYM shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Rev 22:18, 19 Hebraic Bible

I saw that God had especially guarded the Bible, yet learned men, when the copies were few, had changed the words in some instances, thinking that they were making it more plain, when they were mystifying that which was plain, in causing it to lean to their established Views, governed by tradition. But I saw that the word of God, as a whole, is a perfect chain, one portion of scripture explaining another. True seekers for truth need not err for not only is the word of God plain and simple in declaring the way to life, but the Holy Spirit is given to guide in understanding the way of life revealed in his Word. EW 220, 221; 1SG 116, 117

This is for all of us!

How Shall We Search the Scriptures?

How shall we search the Scriptures in order to understand what they teach? We should come to the investigation of Word with a contrite heart, a teachable and prayerful spirit. We are not to think, as did the Jews, that our own ideas and opinions are infallible; nor with the papists, are that certain individuals the sole guardians of truth and knowledge, that men have no right to search the Scriptures for themselves, but must accept the explanations given by the fathers of the church. We should not study the Bible for the purpose of sustaining our preconceived opinions, but with the single object of learning what God has said.  Some have feared that if in even a single point they acknowledge themselves in error; other minds would be led to doubt the whole theory of truth.

Therefore they have felt that investigation should not be permitted, that it would tend to dissension and disunion. But if such is to be the result of investigation, the sooner it comes the better. If there are those whose faith in God’s Word will not stand the test of an investigation of the Scriptures, the sooner they are revealed the better; for then the way will be opened to show them their error. We cannot hold that a position once taken, an idea once advocated, is not, under any circumstances, to be relinquished. There is but ONE who is INFALLIBLE--HE who is THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE.

Those who allow prejudice to bar the mind against the reception of truth cannot receive the divine enlightenment. Yet, when a view of Scripture is presented, many do not ask, is it true--in harmony with God’s word? But, by whom is it advocated and unless it comes through the very channel that pleases them, they do not accept it. So thoroughly satisfied are they with their own ideas that they will not examine the Scripture evidence with a desire to learn, but refuse to be interested, merely because of their prejudices.

The Lord often works where we least expect HIM; HE surprises us by revealing HIS POWER through instruments of HIS OWN Choice, while HE passes by the men to whom we have looked as those through whom light should come. God desires us to receive the truth upon its own merits--because it is truth.

The Bible must not be interpreted to suit the ideas of men, however long they may have held these ideas to be true. We are not to accept the opinion of commentators as THE VOICE of God; they were erring mortals like ourselves. God has given reasoning powers to us as well as to them. We should make the Bible its own expositor. TM 105, 106

You see HCH I accept what EGW said herself, she said she was not a prophetess and not a prophet! You and no one else can tell or make a person be what they choose not to be! That's the problem people making claims that are not true. The younger generation are tired of our inconsistencies and that is why they are leaving the churches! It is THE MOST HIGH who chooses to call to be a prophet or prophetess. John is the last prophet, why? Because he was given everything that would take place all the way to after the end of this old world. EGW saw visions that he saw with a little more detail but still Biblical! That's what I accept, truth according to the Bible!

Blessings!

 

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hch

Marri.

I am sorry that you did not bring this into the discussion when I asked the question "could Ellen White be a prophetess?" weeks ago.

please note from your research and your post that Ellen said:

9 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

I did not claim to be a prophet;

 

9 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made no claim to this title.

 

9 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

"Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?--Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word 'prophet' signifies

 

9 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

To claim to be a prophetess is something that I have never done.

Perhaps you are reading something into the statements from EG White that are not there.

9 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

she said she was not a prophetess and not a prophet!

No where in the quotes that you provided from Ellen White is the statement that you concluded written from her pen being stated.  I have never claimed is not the same thing as I am not. To claim to be more than a prophet is like saying a prophet plus something else

Then you warn about adding to the Scriptures or misreading them, while you are in danger of taking away from the Scriptures. The consequences are the same.

Jesus said of John the Baptist

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Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: Luke 7:28 

Compare the life and works of Ellen White to that of John. And you would be blessed if you study the description of prophets and the work of prophets in the Bible like Abraham, Amos, Isaiah, Daniel, etc. 

If I missed a statement from Ellen White that said I am not a prophet (prophetess) please post only that statement without the fluff so that it will not be missed again.

Christian regards,

Hch

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stinsonmarri
5 hours ago, hch said:

No where in the quotes that you provided from Ellen White is the statement that you concluded written from her pen being stated.  I have never claimed is not the same thing as I am not. To claim to be more than a prophet is like saying a prophet plus something else

Then you warn about adding to the Scriptures or misreading them, while you are in danger of taking away from the Scriptures. The consequences are the same.

Jesus said of John the Baptist

Quote

Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: Luke 7:28 

Compare the life and works of Ellen White to that of John. And you would be blessed if you study the description of prophets and the work of prophets in the Bible like Abraham, Amos, Isaiah, Daniel, etc. 

If I missed a statement from Ellen White that said I am not a prophet (prophetess) please post only that statement without the fluff so that it will not be missed again.

HCH: Evidently you did not read everything I gave:

When I was last in Battle Creek, I said before a large congregation that I did not claim to be a prophetess. Twice I referred to this matter...Review and Herald, July 26, 1906

I do not know how clear you want it or your eyes are close to her own writing in the Review and Harald that she and her husband founded. I never compare anybody's work show me? What I stated is this: "John is the last prophet, why? Because he was given everything that would take place all the way to after the end of this old world. EGW saw visions that he saw with a little more detail but still Biblical! That's what I accept, truth according to the Bible!" Now you show me in these two sentences that I compared them? Then you accuse me with this statement: "Then you warn about adding to the Scriptures or misreading them, while you are in danger of taking away from the Scriptures. The consequences are the same".

You also use this Scripture:

Among those that are born of women, there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: Luke 7:28 

HCH your accusation is unfounded because I never spoke about anyone being great at all! I clearly said that John who wrote Revelation was the last prophet. I also gave the reason why, and here are the Scriptures I should have used to back me up Act 2:14-17! I do not know what you read because I myself gave a short paragraph everything were quotes! Before you accuse someone of being in danger of taking away from the Scripture, I suggest you read what they said more clearly!

Be blessed!

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hch
1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

When I was last in Battle Creek, I said before a large congregation that I did not claim to be a prophetess. Twice I referred to this matter...Review and Herald, July 26, 1906

Dear sister, you need to read it again. I did not claim is not saying I am not

In other quotes that you kindly provided, she explained that she was MORE than a prophet and why she did not claim to be a prophet. But never did she deny it, merely stating that she had never put forth that claim in her behalf.

Study the Bible definition of a prophet, study their lives, visions, etc., and then please tell us which of the identifying features of a prophetess she falls short on. 

Even John the Baptist said "I am not" but Jesus said 'yes he was'

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JoeMo
On 7/15/2019 at 11:45 AM, hch said:

When I assert that something is true and give Scripture and/or Spirit of Prophecy evidence to show why I believe it is true: All you have to do is to show from the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy where I am mistaken.

I don't use the SoP to "show" anything.  If I can't show it from Scripture, it's not worth debating over.  If I see something in Scripture and EGW supports it, it is worthy of consideration.

As far as showing you from scripture that you are wrong, with your "unique" worldview, I can actually follow much of your logic.  IMHO, you are taking your convoluted worldview and and finding scripture to support it rather than taking scripture and using it to formulate a worldview.  Plus, you look at things from the viewpoint of a 21st century contrarian rather than from the viewpoint of early Israelites and Christians.  For example, the Bible was written by Israelites, about Israel, and for Israel.  They are His Chosen People - always have been and always will be.  Scripture doesn't always deal with the history of the entire planet; it deals primarily with the history of Israel and the surrounding nations.  While I cannot "prove" your statements wrong, neither can you "prove my statements wrong without intertwining your unorthodox world view.  Furthermore, I have yet to find anything special in your posts that I must accept to be saved.  You have your opinions, and I have mine.

Could you and EGW be correct about the papacy being the antichrist/beast/harlot and everything else it has been called.  Maybe.  Could Michael Pence be the Michael spoken of in Daniel 12?  Most probably not, but there might be a slim (infinitesimal) chance that you are correct.  Do the Kings on the North and South change hands as often as you seem to think?  I think not.

Does the "day for a year" principle you use for almost all of your timelines pertain to all prophecy?  I sincerely doubt it.  If it does, is the 5 months of torture by the demons from the abyss prophesied in the 5th trumpet really mean 150 years?  Is the thousand year millennium really 360,000 years long? If not, where am I told in scripture "do not apply the 'day-for-year' principle to these scriptures"?  Why didn't this principle apply to Jesus' first coming, where all of the prophecies about Him were fulfilled in real-time?

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stinsonmarri
8 hours ago, hch said:

Dear sister, you need to read it again. I did not claim is not saying I am not

In other quotes that you kindly provided, she explained that she was MORE than a prophet and why she did not claim to be a prophet. But never did she deny it, merely stating that she had never put forth that claim in her behalf.

Study the Bible definition of a prophet, study their lives, visions, etc., and then please tell us which of the identifying features of a prophetess she falls short on. 

Even John the Baptist said "I am not" but Jesus said 'yes he was'

More than a prophet is not being a prophet. Now I am comparing. She and Nathan had something in common. He was a prophet, she was not but both saw messages that had to deal with other people's lives. Testimonies to the Churches I also believe everyone of them. She was able to see other people lives that was very special and more than a prophet! She like Nathan were also chosen to be a messenger seeing personal things that only THE ALMIGHTY ONES could reveal. Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar was totally different. YAHWEH took from Nebuchadnezzar his dream so the Chaldeans couldn't make up a false interpretation. Only Daniel had the vision and not his other companions.

If YAHSHUA said you are something, that is totally different. EGW clearly stated that YAHSHUA told her that she would be a messenger.

I have had no claims to make, only that I am instructed that I am God’s messenger; that HE called me in my youth to be HIS messenger, to receive HIS Word, and to give a clear and decided message in THE NAME of the God. (ELOHIYM)

"Early in my youth I was asked several times, Are you a prophet? I have ever responded; I am the God’s messenger. I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made no claim to this title. My SAVIOR declared me to be HIS messenger. 'Your work,' HE Instructed me, 'is to bear MY Word. Strange things will arise, and in your youth I set you apart to bear the message to the erring ones, to carry the word before unbelievers, and with pen and voice to reprove from the Word actions that are not right. Exhort from the Word. I will make My Word open to you. It shall not be as a strange language. In the true eloquence of simplicity, with voice and pen, the messages that I give shall be heard from one who has never learned in the schools. MY SPIRIT and MY POWER shall be with you.' . . .

"Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?--Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word 'prophet' signifies. . . .

"To claim to be a prophetess is something that I have never done. If others call me by that name, I have no controversy with them. But my work has covered so many lines that I cannot call myself other than a messenger, sent to bear a message from the God to His people, and to take up work in any line that He points out.

"When I was last in Battle Creek, I said before a large congregation that I did not claim to be a prophetess. Twice I referred to this matter, intending each time to make the statement, 'I do not claim to be a prophetess.' If I spoke otherwise than this, let all now understand that what I had in mind to say was that I do not claim the title of prophet or prophetess" (Review and Herald, July 26, 1906

So what she and I and now you all say the same thing! What did YAHSHUA told her she would be? A messenger, now I rest my case.

Blessings!

Blessings!

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hch
16 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I don't use the SoP to "show" anything.

Are you saying that God wasted His time to give us something that is useless?

16 hours ago, JoeMo said:

the Bible was written by Israelites, about Israel, and for Israel.

Is your lens out of focus ?

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For God so loved the world [only Israel?], that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever [only Israel?] believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world [only Israel?]  to condemn the world [only Israel?]; but that the world [only Israel?] through Him might be saved. He [only Israel?] that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he [only Israel?] that believeth not is condemned already, because he [only Israel?] hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

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 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

The Bible upholds the Biblical view. That is why you cannot prove it wrong.

16 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I have yet to find anything special in your posts that I must accept to be saved.

In the endtime: Those who do not understand the antichrist, will be deceived by him. THAT is a salvation issue.

16 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Does the "day for a year" principle you use for almost all of your timelines pertain to all prophecy? 

That is an example of not reading what I write, or not understanding what I wrote, or projecting your own views into something that I wrote to change my teaching into something that I do not teach. In your presentation, you take what I do not believe (that you have ascribed to me) and make a straw man argument that only serves to make you look like you don't know what you are talking about.

For clarity: I have shown from Ezekiel that the day for a year principle relates to the destruction of the Temple and therefore it must apply to its restoration. Thus, Daniel 11 specifically gives the details from 457 BC to 1844 AD that transpire during the 2300 years. After 1844, the day for a year principle stops in Revelation and after 1844, time in Revelation is literal. I have only found one exception in Daniel 7 of long time (the day for a year principle) being used after 1844. "My timelines" use literal time, prophetic time (day for year), and millennial time (day=1000 years). Then from Scripture and history I show the correlation between the time prophecy and the dates of the historical fulfillment. Thus, showing that the correct principle of time measurement was utilized in the study. 

JoeMo, After reading your comments, I seriously wonder if you are doing your homework?

Assumptions, presumptions, and false statements are not going to help anyone find truth. 

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hch
9 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

He was a prophet, she was not

Marri,

you are stumbling over the same ground.

Ellen White never claimed to be a prophet/prophetess. 

She NEVER denied it. (she denied making that claim for or about herself)

She acknowledged that others made that claim in her behalf.

EGW never rebuked them for bearing false witness for saying that about her.

Instead of quoting the same thing over and over: Prayerfully try to understand it

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hch
Quote

 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised His words, and misused His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till [there was] no remedy. 2 Chronicles 36:16

word study

  1. messengers...somebody with a message
  2.  prophets...spokesman, speaker
Quote

 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Malachi 3:1

Quote

Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see...But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. For this is [he], of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.  Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Matthew 11:4, 

 

On 7/15/2019 at 7:45 PM, stinsonmarri said:

 "Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?--Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word 'prophet' signifies. . . .

 "To claim to be a prophetess is something that I have never done. If others call me by that name, I have no controversy with them. But my work has covered so many lines that I cannot call myself other than a messenger, sent to bear a message from the God to His people, and to take up work in any line that He points out." (Review and Herald, July 26, 1906

 

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stinsonmarri
5 hours ago, hch said:

Marri,

you are stumbling over the same ground.

Ellen White never claimed to be a prophet/prophetess. 

She NEVER denied it. (she denied making that claim for or about herself)

She acknowledged that others made that claim in her behalf.

EGW never rebuked them for bearing false witness for saying that about her.

Instead of quoting the same thing over and over: Prayerfully try to understand it

4 hours ago, hch said:

But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised His words, and misused His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till [there was] no remedy. 2 Chronicles 36:16

You HCH: You just do not get it with what she said and the Scripture you gave.

I do not claim to be a prophetess.' If I spoke otherwise than this, let all now understand that what I had in mind to say was that I do not claim the title of prophet or prophetess" (Review and Herald, July 26, 1906

My SAVIOR declared me to be HIS messenger. 'Your work,' HE Instructed me, 'is to bear MY Word. Strange things will arise, and in your youth I set you apart to bear the message to the erring ones, to carry the word before unbelievers, and with pen and voice to reprove from the Word actions that are not right. Exhort from the Word. I will make My Word open to you. It shall not be as a strange language. In the true eloquence of simplicity, with voice and pen, the messages that I give shall be heard from one who has never learned in the schools. MY SPIRIT and MY POWER shall be with you.' . . .Ibid

But they mocked the messengers of ELOHIYM, and despised HIS WORDS and misused HIS prophets, until the Wrath of YAHWEH arose against HIS people, till [there was] no remedy. 2 Chronicles 36:16 

What I read simply in this Verse is 1: YAHWEH'S messengers were mocked; 2: YAHWEH prophets were misused. Two group of people that YAHWEH used messengers and prophets. I also know that some can be both but YAHWEH will tell you in Scriptures if they are both. EGW never said she was a prophet nor did she say that YAHSHUA told her she was both. She clearly said she was instructed to be HIS messenger. That goes along with Scriptures: 

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out MY SPIRIT upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old shall dream dreams, your young shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out MY SPIRIT. Joel 2:28, 29

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;   And it shall come to pass in the last days, SAITH ELOHIYM, I will pour out of MY SPIRIT upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young shall see visions, and your old shall dream dreams: And on MY servants and on MY handmaidens I will pour out in those days of MY SPIRIT; and they shall prophesy: Act 2:16-18 

I see nothing in either one of these Scriptures say prophet or prophetess, it clearly states those who receive THE HOLY SPIRIT shall prophesy! What does prophesy mean in the Bible. Let Paul clarified that:

Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Rom 12:6 

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 1 Co 13:9 

Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 1 Co 14:1, 24, 31, 39 

I will stand and say very clear you nor I or anyone has the right to tell anyone how they are call by YAHSHUA and THE MOST HIGH! THEY came SPEAK for THEMSELVES! EGW understood very clear what she was call to be a messenger. There were no need for any more prophet because John was given ALL THE VISIONS of what will happen in the last days and beyond. Hiram Edison and EGW and two others were the only ones given visions. The visions that all of them saw was already in Revelation it was just like EGW said to bring us back to the Bible for understanding. None of them that had visions saw anything outside of what was in the Bible. EGW was also a messenger so she saw vision about people personal lives, certain natural catastrophes that were related only to the ministries. The two she saw was the San Francisco earthquake and the fire in Battle Creek were warning dealing with the ministry. It happen in her time because the ministers needed to be chastise. But all the other catastrophes she saw in the future was also in the Bible! It make sense she was the messenger for the time to help to steady the course of new believers that came together from all of the many denomination of churches! Each church they came from believed in something different and YAHWEH was guiding them on the straight and narrow path. They were giving a little meat at a time to receive, understand and learn it. However, as in the past with both the Canaanite and IsraEL they begin to lean to their own understanding. EGW saw it as she was close to death and wrote the book Testimony to the Minister. It was a book of confession and warning of the  mistakes she along with other had made along with the truth they had accomplish. She wanted all to know that only THE ALMIGHTY was INFALLIBLE and not her. She now saw the very same mistake of the Pharisees and the Papacy was becoming again the problem in the last church not a remnant church (The Bible never said there was a remnant church it said the woman's seed.)! She warned with her message to hold on to truth but learn what wasn't truth but error and to please let it go.

Finally, she prepared a remarkable synopsis of Daniel and Revelation to conclude that all the writers in her day did not meet the mustard. She made it very clear that both of these books will be completely understood just before YAHSHUA would return. So she to her death stood as THE ALMIGHTY messenger and she made it clear what her instruction from YAHSHUA was-A MESSENGER!

Blessings!

Edited by stinsonmarri
correction

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JoeMo
6 hours ago, hch said:

Are you saying that God wasted His time to give us something that is useless?

Your putting words into my mouth.  I am NOT saying what you accuse me of.  She is NOT useless; but she is not some infallible prophet in the same sense as the OT prophets.  If you would have quoted me in context, that would be obvious:

22 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I don't use the SoP to "show" anything. 

6 hours ago, hch said:

Is your lens out of focus ?

I don't think so.  Is yours?

6 hours ago, hch said:

JoeMo, After reading your comments, I seriously wonder if you are doing your homework?

I think I am.

6 hours ago, hch said:

Assumptions, presumptions, and false statements are not going to help anyone find truth. 

Right back at you, bro!

 

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JoeMo
22 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I don't use the SoP to "show" anything.  If I can't show it from Scripture, it's not worth debating over.  If I see something in Scripture and EGW supports it, it is worthy of consideration.

 

6 hours ago, hch said:

Is your lens out of focus ?

No; Is yours?

6 hours ago, hch said:

JoeMo, After reading your comments, I seriously wonder if you are doing your homework?

I think I am.  Are you doing yours?

6 hours ago, hch said:

Assumptions, presumptions, and false statements are not going to help anyone find truth. 

Right back at you, bro!

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phkrause
9 hours ago, hch said:

Ellen White never claimed to be a prophet/prophetess. 

She NEVER denied it. (she denied making that claim for or about herself)

She acknowledged that others made that claim in her behalf.

EGW never rebuked them for bearing false witness for saying that about her.

I agree with you 100%

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JoeMo

hch,

All speculation of prophecy in the future is just that - speculation.  It is not possible to prove "speculation" as right or wrong.  Actual events end all speculation.  As far as your clever scenarios go about past "fulfillments" of prophecy, I can't deny your scholarship.  That being said, it is too convoluted and complex for an average guy like me to really absorb.  If it's too complicated for me, do you think other average students will be able to follow it?  You keep posting your interpretations of prophecy; Marri, Rachel, and others will post theirs, and I will post mine.  Time will ultimately reveal the facts.

I'm sure an educated and smart guy like you is familiar with Ocham's Razor:

"Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the one that requires the least speculation is usually correct. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation."

If you accept this philosophical statement, I ask you - which interpretations of scripture require more speculation - your very complex ones or those of others (not necessarily me) that read the scriptures literally and plainly?

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hch
5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

All speculation of prophecy in the future is just that - speculation. 

Other words for speculation are:conjecture · theorizing · hypothesizing · supposition · guesswork

The Bible says "2 Peter 1:19  

Quote

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Are you suggesting that Peter is saying that we have a more sure word of guesswork?

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

It is not possible to prove "speculation" as right or wrong. 

But it is possible to prove prophecy right. When it comes about, we can prove it happened.

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

it [your interpretation of prophecy] is too convoluted and complex for an average guy like me to really absorb.

Others have understood it. What makes it possible for one person to grasp the simplicity of my prophetic explanation, but another cannot grasp it.

Quote

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. (2Pe 1:21)

 

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

which interpretations of scripture require more speculation - your very complex ones or those of others (not necessarily me) that read the scriptures literally and plainly?

There is nothing complex about my explanation of Bible prophecy.

That being said, my pastor once told me that what I was showing him was not what he had learned in seminary. I stopped studying for a while because I wanted to be sure that I was not teaching error. After 2 weeks, I was impressed "resume your studies in Daniel and Revelation."

WHEN I RETURNED TO MY STUDIES, I COULD NOT UDERSTAND ANY OF IT...IT WAS ALL GIBBERISH to me. The notes that I had said were so simple that a child could understand them were beyond me. I spent three days in prayer. Then suddenly like a flash of light it all made sense again and I understood so much more.

It takes the Holy Spirit to impress the meaning of His word on the heart.

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hch

This is most of my study in a nut shell:
1) Jerusalem fell 605 BC to begin Jeremiah's 70 years of desolation that are doubled
2) Jerusalem and Temple were rebuilt after 70 years doubled (140 years)
3) first rebuild command issued by Cyrus 535 BC at end of 70 years
4) 70 years doubled ended 465 BC
5) After brief tarrying time (465-464) final decree was issued
6) 2300 days extended from 464 to Ezra's arrival in Jerusalem in 457 
7) last rebuild command by Artaxerxes 457 BC
8 ) After the literal 2300 days ended the Temple was cleansed on Day of Atonement 457
9) 2300 years began 457 BC ended 1843 on Day of Atonement
10) after a brief tarrying time, 2300 years ended again 1844 on Day of Atonement
11) Judgment of dead began 22 October 1844 and ended 22 February 1928
12) Judgment Hour began at the dead house of God...RC was dead February 1798
13) A Judgment hour is millennial time 83 years 4 months 
14) The dead RC was alive with Lateran Treaty 1929
15) A brief tarrying time from 22 February 1928 until 14 October 1929
16) Judgment of living began 14 October 1929 and ended 14 February 2013
17) Endtime decree to rebuild Jerusalem 31 May 1998
18) GW Protestant Prince of America's Covenant inaugurated 20 January 2001
19) Revelation 13 focus shifted from papal beast's 7th head to earth beast's first horn
20) President Bush failed 11 September 2001
21) GW confirmed Covenant/Constitution for 1 week 11/17 to 11/23 2001
22) in the midst of the week (11/20/01) GW took away Christ's Sacrifice and Oblation 
23) The 2nd horn on the earth beast was President Obama
24) Duo horns means 2 plus 2: GW, Obama, Trump, Pence
25) Babylonian calculation Pope Benedict XVI left office short of 7 years (short space) 
26) Benedict left during fornication scandal...fornicating Babylon is fallen
27) 2 living popes with a third soon to come
28) #IranUSwar aligns with Trump getting broken and Pence being last President

I'm sure I could fine tune this list or put it into a chart.

But if the Holy Spirit is not revealing this information to you as the Present Truth that it is, it is not my lack of due diligence or lack of proclamation of the 3rd Angel's Message that is about to overwhelm those who are not prepared or diligently preparing.

Am I infallible? No! I am not God! Am I studying? YES

Is it a salvation issue to rightly divide the word of God? "ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"

In Noah's Day, most folks believed a lie and it didn't help them to get into the ark when the time came. 

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JoeMo
11 hours ago, hch said:

Are you suggesting that Peter is saying that we have a more sure word of guesswork?

No; I'm suggesting that the way you and I interpret and explain Bible prophecies is speculation.

11 hours ago, hch said:

But it is possible to prove prophecy right. When it comes about, we can prove it happened.

I agree.  It then ceases to become speculation and becomes fact.  I believe when our interpretation of prophecy moves from speculation about the meaning to actual fulfillment, we will say "o yeah! God said this would happen!"; and it gives us additional confidence and faith in His word.  Satan Himself didn't even understand the prophecies about the Messiah's first coming:

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (1 Cor. 2: 7-8)

When Jesus said that people would be saying "Peace and safety"; right before the end; does this mean all their speculations were wrong?  Our best bet for salvation is to be ready for Jesus to come at all times.

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hch
20 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I'm suggesting that the way you and I interpret and explain Bible prophecies is speculation.

The way I interpret prophecy is to prayerfully understand them and glean the meaning that God would have us to understand today.

The Third Angel's Message is upon us!

The first Angel's Message "The hour of His judgment is come" When did it come and how long is an hour? Who was being judged?

Quote

The Saviour did enter the Most Holy Place in 1844 to cleanse the sanctuary and the investigative judgment had commenced for the dead. 10MR 269.1

The judgment of the dead came 22 October 1844. The RC was dead.

Quote

 unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.  Revelation 3:1 

Quote

Pius VI…the pope specified in prophecy…received the deadly wound. 5MR 318.1

Quote

Judgment must begin at the house of God (1 Peter 4:17).

The RC claims to be the church of God that extends back to the apostles.

Quote

The Catholic Church teaches that it is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church founded by Jesus Christ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church)

The duration of a judgment hour is 83 years 4 months. [Adam's judgment in the day that he sinned was 930 years. a day is 1000 years. A day has 12 hours. an hour of a 1000-year day  is 83 years 4 months] Thus, the judgment hour of the dead that began 22 October 1844 has ended 22 February 1928. 

Quote

The judgment takes place first upon the dead, then upon the living, then the whole universe will be assembled to hear the sentence8MR 244.2

The RC was healed by the Lateran Treaty in 1929.

Quote

By the Lateran Treaty, the Vatican City State, where the Pope is temporal ruler, was established as a territorial endowment and the headquarters for the Holy See. (https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/va-lateran-treaties.htm)

The judgment hour of the living RC began on the Day of Atonement 14 October 1929. It continued for an hour (83 years 4 months) until 14 February 2013 At which time Pope Benedict XVI stepped down in the midst of the priests' fornication scandal that extended to the pope's ceremonial usher.

Quote

VATICAN CITY- One of Pope Benedict's ceremonial ushers and a member of an elite choir in St Peter's Basilica have been implicated in a gay prostitution ring, in the latest sexual scandal to taint the Vatican.http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/sex-scandal-rocks-vatican-papal-usher-chorister-linked-gay-prostitution-ring-article-1.172149

Benedict XVI resign ended while the Second Angel's Message was being repeated while the fornication corruptions were rocking the RC.

Quote

This scripture points forward to a time when the announcement of the fall of Babylon, as made by the second angel [Revelation 14:8] of Revelation 14, is to be repeated, with the additional mention of the corruptions which have been entering the various organizations that constitute Babylon, since that message was first given, in the summer of 1844. {GC88 603.2} 

Quote

The proclamation of the first, second, and third angels' messages has been located by the Word of Inspiration. Not a peg or pin is to be removed. No human authority has any more right to change the location of these messages than to substitute the New Testament for the Old. The Old Testament is the gospel in figures and symbols. The New Testament is the substance. One is as essential as the other. Ms 32, 1896, p. 1. ("Testimony Concerning the Views of Prophecy Held by Brother John Bell, 1896.) 

A diligent student of Revelation will notice that the sequence of the 3 Angel's Messages is not the same in Rev 14 and 18. In Rev 14 the order is 1,2,3. In Rev 18 the order of the three angels' messages is 2, 1, 3.

Quote

The first and second messages were given in 1843 and 1844, and we are now under the proclamation of the third; but all three of the messages are still to be proclaimed. It is just as essential now as ever before that they shall be repeated to those who are seeking for the truth. By pen and voice we are to sound the proclamation, showing their order, and the application of the prophecies that bring us to the third angel's message. There cannot be a third without the first and second. Ibid.  {1MR 53.1}  Post 1844 Truths Unchangeable 

Since we are under the proclamation of the Third Angel's Message, and a thorough study of the Scriptures indicates that President Pence is the one that is to implement the Mark of the Beast: Is it wise to brush it off...ignore the possibility...downplay the facts by labeling them as speculation...belittle the messenger...or just to wait and see? Would it be wise to investigate the matter and make the needed preparation to be sure that our spiritual house is in order? And upon thorough investigation of the facts, would it not be wise to join in the final warning message? Who wants to be crying peace and safety on the eve of sudden destruction?

 

Quote

 

Are we to wait until the fulfillment of the prophecies of the end before we say anything concerning them? Of what value will our words be then? Shall we wait until God’s judgments fall upon the transgressor before we tell him how to avoid them? Where is our faith in the word of God? Must we see things foretold come to pass before we will believe what He has said? In clear, distinct rays light has come to us, showing us that the great day of the Lord is near at hand, “even at the doors.” Let us read and understand before it is too late. 9T 20.1

 

 

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Gregory Matthews


HCH, the way you interpret Biblical prophecy is to read the morning newspaper, and watch the evening TV news, to see if you can attach some tidbit to some Biblical phrase.  

To sum up in one word: Eisegesis. 

You could be a classic illustration of that word, to be used in a class.

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JoeMo
52 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

To sum up in one word: Eisegesis. 

Not only eisegesis, but you lean on EGW more than scripture to "prove your points.  Like I stated before - speculation.

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stinsonmarri
On 7/17/2019 at 7:01 AM, hch said:

Marri,

you are stumbling over the same ground.

Ellen White never claimed to be a prophet/prophetess. 

She NEVER denied it. (she denied making that claim for or about herself)

She acknowledged that others made that claim in her behalf.

EGW never rebuked them for bearing false witness for saying that about her.

Instead of quoting the same thing over and over: Prayerfully try to understand it

Again, let me repeat what you said earlier yourself: "Even John the Baptist said "I am not" but Jesus said 'yes he was'" I think you forget the things that you are right on, especially those others agree with you on! EGW said very clearly the instruction of YAHSHUA, that she would be a messenger and used her pen. I also told you that some prophets were also messengers. John the Baptist recognize who YAHSHUA was, he preached a message of HIS first coming. Only YAHSHUA said he was a great prophet, have you seen his visions that he saw? What I've read, John was preaching from what was already written in Isaiah. Where did he read or know to baptized, I say through THE HOLY SPIRIT. That is what made him come in THE HOLY SPIRIT that Elijah had.

Elijah was told by YAHWEH to tell Ahab it was going to rain. How was told in a vision or by THE HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF? We do not know because the Bible does not  state it. What we do know he was also a messenger and the Bible give references to this fact. Now as I stated before some prophet were both.

The Bible never called Daniel a prophet but he had visions and were told to write them and to sealed up his writing. He was told it would be understood in the end.

James, Matthew, Peter and even Paul were preachers. YAHSHUA told Paul specifically, he would be the one to preach to the Gentiles. Which by the way would only be Japheth children. Find a book or a letter or a place Paul went to preach to Ham's children? That's because they already knew YAHSHUA and many of them did join and marry with the children of Israel. The Canaanites knew YAHSHUA first before Abraham. The Amorites, King/Priest Melchizedek, IshmaEL, Kentura, Tamar, Jethro, Zippora, some of the mixed people who came out of Egypt, Rahab, Ruth, Bathsheba, Solomon's Shulamite Bride, Mark the writer of the NT, Simmon who carry YAHSHUA'S stauros, Queen Candace, Queen Candace's eunuch and so many more! 

Now Jude was a prophet because along with EGW saw that the evil angels and Satan was not kick down here on earth. The KJV is in error the word "Ge," means worlds that have land mass. Heaven has a land mass! Plus this war in Heaven started before the earth was made. It was planned but not created yet. EGW in her book SP vol. 1 states that THE FATHER told THE SON that they will continue on with THEIR Plan to create the earth. Satan and his angels are in prison somewhere beyond Orion's nebula. Only Satan is free and permitted to roam, the angels are not! They have to get permission. Satan a long with his evil angels will be bound because they have no one to tempt. Where ever that prison is located Satan to will be cast in for a thousand years! Jude also saw Moses resurrection and the event that took place there. He preached and wrote  what he was given in visions. He was a prophet, but the Bible does not state it!

If only we read the Bible as it says and stop trying to interpret it there is a lot of knowledge to learn. Just like you refuse to believe EGW's own words, people try to interpret the Bible when is says, don't! It is to be read and understood! How through THE POWER of THE HOLY SPIRIT. HE leads you into all truth from the Bible. Line upon line precept upon precept, here a little, there a little. Plus history proves what the Bible states. EGW supplements with her visions and Testimony the Bible. However, she is fallible and wrote Biblical history and world history base on books of the time and her former Methodist belief. All of the pioneers brought some of their former beliefs into the Adventist formation. However, EGW showed that there were many things that they got wrong and we all need to own up to them in order to move forward! That is why I don't need exegesis or other known and accepted Greek thoughts. They are not THE HOLY SPIRIT who shows truth in the Bible itself. I know many are wary with me because I don't follow famous Bible scholars which includes Adventist also of today. I have many books in my library I had to purchase to study Biblical history the way man teaches. I came to one conclusion that YAHSHUA'S saves and it is THE HOLY SPIRIT that will open up the Scriptures to all and make understanding simple by HIS POWERS and not me or anyone else!

Blessings! 

Edited by stinsonmarri
correction

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stinsonmarri
10 hours ago, hch said:

Benedict XVI resign ended while the Second Angel's Message was being repeated while the fornication corruptions were rocking the RC.

You know EGW said in TM p.112 there would be less said about the papacy. You seem to be smoother in their movements also the jesuits in which the Bible never speaks about. This jesuits syndrome seems to drown this church and cannot for the life of me understand why. The Bible speak of the horn, the 7th head and the whore and that is it. Where is all this other nonsense coming from. The horn that spake became in office so papacy became that office. The papacy rule as Papacy Rome until Napoleon general put one of them in their own prison. In the 1920's Mussolini released the papacy office and restore it. However, the papacy lost it vassal states. As a whore and the head is still the papacy but a church with ecclesiastical powers and the Protestants stated as her daughters! Nothing else about any jesuits movement which to me means nothing but Satan divergent from the truth. Satan is excellent in causing divergents to through people off from the truth which are prophetic.

I do believe that Daniel Chapter Eleven is a world history event and that both the north and the south historical became other modern nations and I believe that all the world wars Daniel saw also. I do believe that the final north is USA and some of the presidents come into play with last day event prophetically. I accept that the last few verses of Daniel Chapter Eleven is of great importance. I feel that person that build his palace must be the whore because the beast in John comes into play after the third woe. I am praying and studying these verses carefully. I believe it will be understood soon by someone who HE chooses. But the time is at hand! I would love to hear some other views about verses 27-45. I do not agree with the church view base on what I stated above and what EGW admitted herself in TM on Daniel and Revelation. No ones know everything it is collecting from others and that is what the disciples and the pioneers did. 

Blessings!

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