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hch

Who's fooling who?

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hch
34 minutes ago, Lone Ranger said:

As an aside and not to de- rail the thread,  I DO think EGW contradicts herself. I hold this point of view because, IMO, although her theology can be characterized as "evolving over time" at the same time some of her books contain contradictory statements within the same book. 

Some things that she writes can be difficult to understand.

Sometimes it is necessary to study what seems at first glance as contradictions to see how they fit together. 

The classic example is about some men being food for worms. If I recall they were supposed to live until Christ came (they all died). But even that "contradiction" is easily solved when studied. [And no I do not have time to go on a Side trip to explain it TYJTS]

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JoeMo
1 hour ago, Lone Ranger said:

As an aside and not to de- rail the thread,  I DO think EGW contradicts herself. I hold this point of view because, IMO, although her theology can be characterized as "evolving over time" at the same time some of her books contain contradictory statements within the same book. 

I understand your feelings.  For years after I started seeing inconsistencies in her writings I felt the same way.  But I see contradictions in almost all Christian writers' books (at least they seem like inconsistencies to me).  I interpret certain things in the Bible as inconsistent as well; but I always assume that's because I am misunderstanding something or looking at it through modern western eyes rather than a Middle Eastern POV from 2,000 - 4,000 years ago. I can agree with about 90% of the stuff EGW says. Most of the 10% I don't agree with has to do with prophecy.

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JoeMo

Another thing - I don't completely blame EGW for inconsistencies in her writings.  They were edited and revised many times. Furthermore, I think she would roll over in her grave if she knew what the White Estate and the SDA Church turned her into.  It's not her fault that the church places her on such a high pedestal.  She consistently denied that she was a prophet, and sometimes harshly criticized those who held her up as some kind of SDA pope.

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Lone Ranger

I think you're right. I think everyone is inconsistent in some areas, Biblical writers, Ellen White, and myself included. As Krister Stendahl said: "Consistency is a dubious criteria to apply to someone as complex as Paul."

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hch

Prophetic Time After 1844

In context, Revelation 10:6 (there should be time no longer) explains prophetic time as it is used in Revelation after 1844, the year that the Adventists experienced the Great Disappointment: The year that Jesus did not Come! The year that ended the 2300-year prophecy. The year that Jesus stood for His people to confess them before His Father and His angels. Thus, the bitter/sweet book being eaten by John in vision in verse 10 is the portion of Daniel relating especially to the 2300 years, i.e., Daniel 8:14 & 11:2-12:1.

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And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter (10:10)

The time (2300 years) was specified in Daniel 8:14. Later, more details were given about time in chapter 9.

God had bidden His messenger: “Make this man to understand the vision.” That commission must be fulfilled. In obedience to it, the angel, some time after­ward, returned to Daniel, saying: “I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding;” “therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.” Daniel 8:27, 16; 9:22, 23, 25-27. There was one important point in the vision of chapter 8 which had been left unexplained, namely, that relating to time--the period of the 2300 days; therefore, the angel, in resuming his explanation, dwells chiefly upon the subject of time:[1]

Yes, Daniel 8:14 focused on the time/2300 years. Daniel 9 continued explaining time as it correlated the starting of the prophecy with historical events. Daniel 11:2 transitioned from time to the events that would take place during the 2300 years. It began with the three kings: Cyrus, Darius, & Artaxerxes, who would issue the decrees that had been foretold, and it predicted the important waymarks that would come to pass through the entire 2300 years until Daniel 12:1 was fulfilled when Christ stood for His people in 1844.

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And now will I show thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia…And at that time shall Michael stand up (Daniel 11:2 & 12:1, ed).

Thus, when Revelation 10:6 declares that there should be time no longer, it is a declaration that the long time/day for a year application of time in the 2300-day/year prophecy ended: The 2300 years were fulfilled! But the declaration in Revelation 10:11, Thou must prophesy again, is a command to the book of Daniel to repeat; including the prophecy 11:2-12:1 without the time/2300-day/year limitation.

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The prophecies of the eleventh of Daniel have almost reached their final fulfillment.[2]

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The prophecy in the eleventh of Daniel has nearly reached its complete fulfillment. Much of the history that has taken place in fulfillment of this prophecy will be repeated.[3]

The command to prophesy again (Revelation 10:11) is a command to repeat the prophecies in the book of Daniel. Since the book of Revelation is opening the book of Daniel, it is also being commanded to prophesy again. Thus, when the time prophecies in Revelation repeat, they are in literal time.

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The books of Daniel and the Revelation are one… but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work.[4]

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There are those now living who in studying the prophecies of Daniel and John, received great light from God as they passed over the ground where special prophecies were in process of fulfillment in their order. They bore the message of time to the people. The truth shone out clearly as the sun at noonday. Historical events, showing the direct fulfillment of prophecy, were set before the people, and the prophecy was seen to be a figurative delineation of events leading down to the close of this earth’s historyThe people now have a special message to give to the world[5]


[1] GC 325.2, ed

[2] RH, November 24, 1904 par. 8, ed The Day of the Lord is Near…

[3] 13MR 394.1, ed

[4] 1MR 99.3, ed

[5] 17MR 1.3, ed

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hch

The Kings of the North and South

Before the 2300-year prophecy had ended in 1844, William Miller recognized that the Kings of the North and South had become European powers. He linked them to “Spain, in the south, and Great Britain, in the north…” “Spain…joined the French.”[1] The Kings of the North and South had become Great Britain and France.

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At the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships (Daniel 11:40).

The French had been conquering Europe. General Berthier invaded Rome and captured Pope Pius VI. “In 1798 …a French army entered Rome, and made the pope a prisoner….”[2] “Pius VI…is the pope specified in prophecy, which received the deadly wound.”[3] “One of his heads as it were wounded to death” (Revelation 13:3). Prophetically speaking, France’s jailing the pope made the Roman Catholic Church the daughter of France, the King of the South.

Prophecy had identified the King of the South as Egypt. Though France claimed to be a friend of the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, and France had an envoy at Istanbul, Napoleon invaded Egypt (the King of the South), which was then an Ottoman province. Napoleon then claimed to have liberated the Egyptians from Ottoman oppression. His Egyptian victories had made France the King of the South in place of Egypt. Since Egypt was vital for England’s trade route with India, Napoleon’s Egyptian war endangered British interests as much or more than his wars in Europe.

Because France ruled the Mediterranean Sea and all of its European ports, the British fleet commanded by Admiral Nelson had been forced to harbor near the Gibraltar fortress. When the British located the French fleet anchored off the coast of Egypt, Nelson left the safety of Gibraltar, and crossed the Mediterranean in 30 days (whirlwind speed for sailing ships back then). This fulfilled Daniel 11:40: Nelson’s fleet sank the French fleet in the battle at Abuqir 1 August 1798 and it chased Napoleon along the Mediterranean coastline.

Without his fleet, Napoleon was forced to go over land to Europe. On the way, he besieged Acre (Akka), a strategic Ottoman fortress between Egypt and Syria. The British flotilla joined the Ottoman forces. From the Mediterranean, the British fleet shelled the French positions. Because the Ottomans depended on England’s naval might to defend Acre, England became the King of the North in place of the Ottoman Empire. When Napoleon retreated to Egypt, the British fleet pursued him as Daniel’s prophecy had foretold.

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He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape (Daniel 11:41-42).

Napoleon returned to Egypt (without fighting in Jordan, Moab, or Edom), and then he escaped with his army. The British then dominated the Mideast to secure its routes to India. “He shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps” (11:43).

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Tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore, he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many (11:44).

Henry John Temple, 3rd Viscount Palmerston, Britain’s Foreign Secretary, typifies the King of the North. He feared a Russian-French alliance would shift the European balance of power. Under his direction, Britain was fighting in the east and the north: 1803-India, 1812-USA, and 1815-France. He used the Ottoman Empire to keep Russia from accessing the Mediterranean via the Dardanelles. He also fought Russian expansion in the north through Afghanistan into India.

Palmerston convinced Russia, Prussia, and Austria 15 July 1840 that Egypt was about to topple the Ottoman Empire. In his view, this would upset the balance of power; he preferred a weak sultan rather than a strong military leader that would strengthen and enlarge the Ottoman Empire. On 11 August 1840, they gave Egypt an ultimatum to stand down or face their allied forces. Muhammad Ali of Egypt refused, and war followed.

“Josiah Litch in 1838, two years before the expected event was to occur. In that year he predicted that the Turkish power would be overthrown “in A.D. 1840, sometime in the month of August”[[4]] but a few days before the fulfillment of the prophecy he concluded more definitely from his study that the period allotted to the Turks would come to an end on August 11, 1840.”[5] It happened in their war with Egypt.

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He shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him (11:45).

Though it is not indicated within the text, this passage is highly supplemented by the translators. Note what Daniel literally wrote: To plant dwelling palace sea glorious holy mountain to come end of time to help.

The British fleet partially fulfilled this prophecy when it anchored between Mount Carmel and Acre to plan their assault of Acre. They then occupied Acre in November 1840. “In the face of European military might, Muhammad Ali acquiesced.”[1] Soon thereafter, Palmerston’s government came to its end…in 1841 it was voted out of office. Thus, the waymarks given in Daniel 11 happened as prophesied to bring the prophecy to Christ standing for His people in 1844.

 

[1] Evidence From Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ About the year 1843, William Miller (1841) p. 105, ed

[2] GC88 266.2, ed

[3] 5MR 318.1, ed

[4] Josiah Litch, The Probability of the Second Coming of Christ About A.D. 1843, p. 157 as cited in Daniel and the Revelation, U. Smith p. 513.

[5] Daniel and the Revelation, Uriah Smith, p. 513

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JoeMo

Nice application of prophecy; but it was not the fulfillment; which is still in the future when the Ottoman Empire (fundamentalist Islam) is revived after the deadly wound they received in the late 19th and early 20th century is healed.  We see it beginning in Turkey, where their current leader is undoing all of the reforms done in Turkey by Ataturk in the early 20th century. 

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hch
On 6/3/2019 at 10:56 PM, JoeMo said:

hch,

That was interesting.

I find Bible study very interesting.

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hch

Perilous Times with Perplexities

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We are now living in a most perilous time, and not one of us should be tardy in seeking a preparation for the coming of Christ. Let none follow the example of the foolish virgins, and think that it will be safe to wait until the crisis comes before gaining a preparation of character to stand in that time. It will be too late to seek for the righteousness of Christ when the guests are called in and examined. Now is the time to put on the righteousness of Christ, --the wedding garment that will fit you to enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb. In the parable, the foolish virgins are represented as begging for oil and failing to receive it at their request. This is symbolic of those who have not prepared themselves by developing a character to stand in a time of crisis. It is as if they should go to their neighbors and say, Give me your character, or I shall be lost. Those that were wise could not impart their oil to the flickering lamps of the foolish virgins. Character is not transferable. It is not to be bought or sold; it is to be acquired. The Lord has given to every individual an opportunity to obtain a righteous character through the hours of probation; but He has not provided a way by which one human agent may impart to another the character which he has developed by going through hard experiences, by learning lessons from the great Teacher, so that he can manifest patience under trial, and exercise faith so that he can remove mountains of impossibility. It is impossible to impart the fragrance of love, --to give to another gentleness, tact, and perseverance. It is impossible for one human heart to pour into another the love of God and humanity.[1]

The prophecy (Daniel 11:40-12:1) arrived at the time of the end of the 2300-years. Michael stood for His people in 1844 to begin the Investigative Judgment. The 2300-year prophecy ended and the events within the prophecy repeat without the long time (day for a year) parameters.

Daniel repeats by predicting what is to happen after the 2300 years arrived at the end of years in 1844. The prophecy repeats in the end of years (Daniel 11:6). Starting here, much of the history that has been fulfilled in Daniel 11 repeats. “We are to see in history the fulfillment of prophecy…”[2]

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I pray earnestly that the work we do at this time shall impress itself deeply on heart and mind and soul. Perplexities will increase; but let us, as believers in God, encourage one another. Let us not lower the standard, but keep it lifted high, looking to Him who is the Author and Finisher of our faith. When in the night season I am unable to sleep, I lift my heart in prayer to God, and He strengthens me, and gives me the assurance that He is with His ministering servants in the home field and in distant lands. I am encouraged and blessed as I realize that the God of Israel is still guiding His people, and that He will continue to be with them, even to the end.[3]

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And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king’s daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in [these] times (Daniel 11:6).


[1] YI, January 16, 1896 par.2

[2] 8T 307.2 (1904), ed

[3] LS 437.3, ed

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JoeMo
On 6/9/2019 at 9:09 PM, hch said:

Some things that she writes can be difficult to understand.

If we can't understand or describe spiritual things without EGW (i.e., using the Bible only to understand or explain our faith), they're probably not worth understanding.

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JoeMo

hch,

Why the sad emoji?  Do you think EGW is an absolute essential in understanding scripture?  You quote her and refer to her more than the Bible. Don't you think relying on her to explain the gospel to the world is a little cultish? Isn't God's word clear enough?  How much stuff about popes, Mike Pence, and alleged RCC abominations is necessary to know in order to be saved?

I have said earlier, I do read EGW. I accept what I can verify in scripture; a hold in abeyance things I can't verify or reject in scripture, and I reject everything that she says which is in conflict with scripture.  I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater; just doubting (or rejecting) some of the stuff she says - just like I do with other inspired writings that I study.  For example, Billy Graham had many amazing and inspiring things to say; but I reject his idea that we got straight to heaven or hell when we die; because the Bible says just the opposite.

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B/W Photodude
1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

If we can't understand or describe spiritual things without EGW (i.e., using the Bible only to understand or explain our faith), they're probably not worth understanding.

"Rightly dividing" the word of God does not come even by careful reading of it. Which is why Paul stated in 2 Tim 3:7, "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." I have met people that can recite long passages of Scripture and cannot even correctly verbalize the meaning of it. The Pharisees of Jesus's time on earth, were intently studying Scripture looking for the Messiah and did not even recognize Him walking among them.

I suspect that the same is even true of EGW's writings. Those who reject the gift given thru her or are other wise critical of what we have been given thru her will not really understand it. So, I would be careful of dismissing things that you don't understand.

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JoeMo
2 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

I would be careful of dismissing things that you don't understand.

There are things I don't understand in scripture as well; but I don't reject them.  I just assume that the Spirit has not yet led me to the answer.  If the things in EGW address stuff I don't understand in scripture, I am grateful for it.  However, if stuff I read in EGW goes against what I read (or think I am interpreting correctly) in scripture, I have no choice but to reject or at least hold in abeyance.  My biggest example is the application of the "day for a year" principle being applied to all end-time prophecy rather than the two prophecies (rather judgements) to which they are explicitly applied.  Of course, there is a "trickle-down" effect on a lot of what she says about the end times that stems from that one disagreement.

I appreciate your posts and responses, B/W.  they make me think and study more.  I must admit that I am reading a lot more SoP than I used to; partially inspired by reading your posts.

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phkrause
5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

If we can't understand or describe spiritual things without EGW (i.e., using the Bible only to understand or explain our faith), they're probably not worth understanding.

Not sure I can agree with that!! I personally believe that everything is worth trying to understanding, it might take a while but if God wants us to understand we will!! Also I see it the other way, if there's something in the Bible I don't understand, I go to EGWs notes/books and see what she has to say about it and most of the time it makes sense!!

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JoeMo
6 hours ago, phkrause said:

if there's something in the Bible I don't understand, I go to EGWs notes/books and see what she has to say about it and most of the time it makes sense!!

Yes; but there are many difficult passages in scripture that she doesn't address.  Furthermore, I agree that what she wrote made sense for her day and age; but things have changed in the past 150 years.  For example, she had every reason to think the papacy/RCC was the beast/antichrist/whore (or all 3!!!); because the RCC was generally perceived as a threat back then; and there were many existing laws and proposals for Sunday Laws and Blue Laws back then.  A national Sunday Law is the furthest thing from my mind with today's signs of the times.  I think it's time to worry about all Christians (including SDA's) being persecuted, marginalized, and made irrelevant by the increasingly secular humanistic globalist movement.

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hch

Prophecy Repeats to Our Day

After France (King of the South) had taken Pope Pius VI captive in 1798, prophetically, the Roman Church became the daughter of the King of the South. France assumed the role as the Protector of the Catholics.

In 1846, Palmerston came back into office in Great Britain (King of the North). The Tsar wrote to him of the Ottoman Empire: “We have on our hands a very sick man, perhaps it would be as well to arrange for his funeral.”[1] When Palmerston refused to remove the Ottoman Empire from being a buffer between Russia and the Mediterranean, the Tsar protested that Orthodox Christians in Palestine were being endangered by the Catholics.

The Crimean War (1854-1856) followed. As prophesied, in the end of years they, the Kings of the North (Britain) and South (France), shall join themselves together; they opposed Russia in the Crimean War.

Count Cavour, who was on a mission to unify Italy under King Victor Emanuel II, had joined the allies in the Crimean War just in time to get a place at the peace table. He settled a border dispute between France and Italy that put Italian unification in motion. The pope opposed Italian unification because he would lose his secular rule over the Papal States.

As prophesied, the king’s daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power… Even though British ships were positioned off Italy’s coast during the struggle for Italian unification (in case British nationals had to be evacuated) England refused to help the papacy keep the Papal States. And France declined to help the pope keep the Papal States.

By 1870, “France was stripped of its Italian territories... Meanwhile, the Italian king had driven the pope into the Vatican City and was thereafter excommunicated from the Catholic Church ...”[2] When France was stripped of its Italian territories, Italy became the King of the South.

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But out of a branch of her roots shall [one] stand up in his estate, which shall come with an army, and shall enter into the fortress of the king of the north, and shall deal against them, and shall prevail. And shall also carry captives into Egypt their gods, with their princes, [and] with their precious vessels of silver and of gold; and he shall continue [more] years than the king of the north (Daniel 11:7-8).

The Roman Church had had two roots or branches: the religious (church) and secular (state). Mussolini (a branch of the state/political roots) seized Italy’s government in 1922. From 1885-1889, Italy formed alliances with the African kingdoms: Zanzibar, Obbia, and Caluula; and its influence extended to Ethiopia. Official borders existed between Italian Somaliland and British Kenya in 1908.

As the King of the South, Mussolini entered the fortress of the King of the North (Kenya), dealt against them, and prevailed: He unilaterally seized Britain’s Jubaland Province in Kenya and the town and port of Kismayo. But Britain did not respond to his attack with a war, instead, it relinquished the territory to Italy.[3]

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The expansion of the colonial Italian Empire after World War I had been directed toward Egypt by Benito Mussolini…[4]

Though Muslims saw the belief in God and Jesus like having many gods, the Italian-Catholics got along well with the Muslims in Egypt; too well from the British perspective. In WWII, Britain alleged that Egypt’s Prime Minister favored the Axis powers. King Farouk I, while in his 20’s, was given the ultimatum to replace him or to be replaced. The king replied to Britain’s Ambassador that he would get rid of his Italian advisors when the ambassador got rid of his Italian advisor (his wife). After World War II, Egypt’s British trained generals ousted Farouk. He was granted asylum in Italy.

During WW II, President Franklin Roosevelt (FDR) had rescued Britain from certain destruction. Thus, he became the King of the North in Great Britain’s place. FDR had become President in 1933, and he died 12 April 1945.

Mussolini had seized Italy’s government to become the King of the South in 1922, and he died on 28 April 1945. As Daniel’s prophecy clearly foretold: Mussolini (the King of the South) continued 23 years more than Roosevelt (the King of the North), who had only ruled for 12 years.

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The king of the south shall come into [his] kingdom, and shall return into his own land (Daniel 11:9).

When Mussolini died, the King of the South returned to his own land, Egypt. Prophecy continued to be fulfilled!

King of South Outlives King of North

         Mussolini          FDR            FDR        Mussolini

       Seized Power    President       Died         Died

 

              1922            1933      4/12/45     4/28/45

 

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hch
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But his sons shall be stirred up, and shall assemble a multitude of great forces: and [one] shall certainly come, and overflow, and pass through: then shall he return, and be stirred up, [even] to his fortress (11:10).

In the Bible, sons can be literal or members of a class (cf Strong). King Farouk’s son, Ahmed Fuad had been made king of Egypt, but he was replaced within a year by the sons, who held the real power in Egypt: Generals Nasser and Sadat. America’s fortress in the region was Israel.

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In 1945, at British prompting, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Transjordan, and Yemen formed the Arab League to coordinate policy between the Arab states.[1]

Prior to WW II, the British had confiscated weapons from both Jews and Palestinians. During WW II, they armed both to fight the Axis powers. After the war, Britain resumed seizing arms and meddling in Mideast politics. Then 29 November 1947, the United Nations (UN) and USA decided to partition Palestine into a Jewish and Palestinian state. Egypt and the Palestinians opposed imposing the will of the UN on the indigenous people without their consent.

Hours before the British mandate over Palestine was to expire 15 May 1948, Israel declared itself a state. Truman, the King of the North, abruptly recognized Israel. Egypt assembled a multitude of great forces (the Arab League) against Israel, the King of the North’s regional fortress.

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“The Arab Legion joined the war in May 1948. It fought only in the areas that king Abdullah wanted to secure for Transjordan: The West Bank and East Jerusalem.” “On 8 July, before the expiration of the truce, Egyptian General Naguib renewed the war.” “In 1949, Israel signed separate armistices with Egypt on 24 February.”[2]

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And the king of the south shall be moved with choler, and shall come forth and fight with him, [even] with the king of the north: and he shall set forth a great multitude; but the multitude shall be given into his hand (Daniel 11:11).

The King of the South (Egypt in union with the Arab League) assembled a multitude of great forces. The King of the South had many troops/made multiple attempts to move against America’s (King of the North’s) fortress, Israel.

The UN kept the peace on the Egyptian Sinai until the funding ceased in 1967. Egypt prepared to invade Israel as prophesied: then shall he (the King of the South) return, and be stirred up, even to his (King of the North’s/USA’s) fortress (Israel). The 1967 six-day war fulfilled this prophecy.

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Egypt amassed 1000 tanks and 100,000 soldiers on the border, closed the Straits of Tiran to all ships flying Israeli flags or carrying strategic materials, and called for unified Arab action against Israel. In response, on June 5, 1967, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack against Egypt’s air force. Jordan…attacked... U. S. Secretary of Defense [under President Johnson] Robert McNamara revealed that a carrier battle group, the U. S. 6th Fleet… was re-positioned towards the eastern Mediterranean to defend Israel.[3]

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[And] when he hath taken away the multitude, his heart shall be lifted up; and he shall cast down [many] ten thousands: but he shall not be strengthened [by it] (Daniel 11:12).

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[In 1973] Golda Meir, Moshe Dayan, and Israeli general David Elazar met...6 hours before the war was to begin… There would be no preemptive strike. Israel might be needing American assistance soon and it was imperative that it not be blamed for starting the war.[4]

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On October 6, 1973, Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar, the Egyptian and Syrian armies launched a surprise attack against Israel. The war ended on October 26 with Israel successfully repelling Egyptian and Syrian forces but suffering great losses.[5]

Israel pushed toward Damascus. Jordan and Iraq joined Syria to drive them back. After the war ended, Sadat became the first Arab head of state to make peace with Israel.

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For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain years with a great army and with much riches (Daniel 11:13).

America had refrained from getting into the 1973 war. But the King of the North was prophesied to be in conflict with the King of the South again, and so it happened! The prophetic King of the South moved from Egypt to Iraq.

Saddam Hussein, the King of the South invaded Kuwait. In response, President Bush I (King of the North) attacked Iraq.[6] Hussein tried to take the war to Israel.[7]

When Iraq’s army was pushed from Kuwait, it set the oil fields ablaze. Bush I got the UN to sanction Iraq to make reparations and to punish their global environmental vandalism. President Bush I had envisioned the New World Order of “peace and security, freedom, and the rule of law.”[8] 6 March 1991, he announced his vision that failed.

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What is at stake is more than one small country, it is a big idea—a new world order, where diverse nations are drawn together in common cause to achieve the universal aspirations of mankind: peace and security, freedom, and the rule of law.[9]

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And in those times, there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also, the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall (Daniel 11:14).

After Bush I united the world against Saddam Hussein, the King of the South became Osama (Usama) bin Laden, a wealthy Saudi Arabian. He declared war on America from Afghanistan. In 1979, he had “joined mujahideen forces in Pakistan fighting against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.”[10]

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Two upheavals in the Middle East would determine the future course of bin Laden’s life. The first was the October War. On Oct. 6, 1973, Egyptian and Syrian forces—supported by Jordan and Iraq and funded by Saudi Arabia—launched an attack on Israeli forces…[11]

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In 1993, the first World Trade Center bombing killed six people. In 1998, the bombing of two U. S. embassies in Africa killed 224. Both were the work of al-Qaida and bin Laden, who in 1998 declared holy war on America…[12]

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stinsonmarri
On 6/7/2019 at 11:39 PM, JoeMo said:

First Issue is you only list 5 or 6 kingdoms here.

On 6/7/2019 at 11:39 PM, JoeMo said:

I divide the Kingdoms as follows: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece (the 5 kingdoms which have fallen), Rome (the Kingdom that Is), and Islam (the 7th (Ottoman Empire) and 8th (Global Islam) Kingdoms.  It's happened in the Middle East and North Africa; and is now spreading across Europe; and if left unchecked, the map of the modern Islamic Kingdom will look a lot like the Ottoman Empire did at it's height

John: I am sorry that this is so late. I have a lot under my plate, and I had to do some new research.

Let me repeat what I said and then I will explain:

"There were seven major empires of the world: Assyria, Egypt, Neo-Babylon Greece/Rome, and Papal Rome: As great as Rome was it base everything on Greece, it was a shadow of Greece and so are we even today! Our political structure is shaped from Greece all the way to our beliefs system we use Greek words. We only use Latin words for medicine and Catholic change Latin words into its liturgy only!"

If you notice I said there were seven major empires of the world and the reason that I put Greece and Rome together was they politically copy Greece, but I still said she was great. The difference between Rome and Greece was their belief system. Greece never accepted the truth about YAHWEH at all during their empire. If you notice Naaman accepted YAHWEH from Assyrian, Egypt had Hagar, Moses adopted mother a princess, a mixed multitude did come out of Egypt, Nebuchadnezzar and his daughter from Neo Babylon, Darius from Persia! Nothing from Greece instead the Hebrews became Hellenistic! The centurion and many more before the apostles all died out. Yes, it is true that the Greeks joined after the death of YAHSHUA but because of them, false doctrine begins to creep into the church. Paul clearly made mention of this while in prison.

Rome was unique and cunning which made them so powerful. The Latin started a confederacy and then as they become more powerful, like a snake they turn against the ones the befriend. Judah befriended Rome as asked them to assist them with Syria so the formed a confederacy once Syria was defeated, they turn on Judah. Carthage were Phoenicians, Ham's great time over grandchildren. The Phoenicians were the travelers of the oceans and seas, these wayfaring giants travel to both north and south America besides Sicily and Europe! Their ships were better built than any Roman ship and Hannibal was a genius! It is sad that Europeans wants to paint this man as White! I truly hate when they do that as if all three sons of Noah did not produce powerful cultures and people! Hannibal plan of attack should not have failed. The victor from all three Punic Wars should have been Carthage, but YAHWEH prophecies will not come back to HIM VOID! Rome would play an important part base on their fragile belief system that could be easily comprised, and it was!

The worship of Mithras by the Roman soldiers was the door that Satan used to form the papacy religion. Believe what you want Christmas is Mithras and on this god's birthday Dec 25th. The Aryan belief system was taken over by Rome and the story of Mithras birth is almost identical to YAHSHUA, except for a minor few lies. The name Christian was artfully captured that the disciple nor the apostles never used! I am just a historian and the truth are there, check out your ancient history because you will find it! There is an exact similarity to Krishna of India where the Aryan's migrated south and took over from the Dravidians! Mede/Persia is Iran and they and the Germans (Cimmerians) are both Aryan tribes of people.

The Roman are cousins to the Aryans and due to Nazism, the historical fact became debunk as false. However, DNA will always provide the truth!

And finally, there are the Steppe pastoralists, the inhabitants of the vast Central Asian grasslands to the north of Afghanistan, who were previously known as “Aryans.”

Some form of “Aryan” migration did take place, even if that term is not used. The introduction of Steppe pastoralists into the subcontinent might have been the way what we know as Indo-European language and culture spread since it was the same lot of Steppe peoples that also moved West into Europe. Who was here first? A new study explains the origins of ancient Indians; By Rohan Venkata Ramakrishnan April 3, 2018

From the earliest days of colonial rule in India, linguists like William Jones and Jakob Grimm (who co-edited "Grimm's Fairy Tales") noticed that Sanskrit shared many similarities with languages as disparate as French, English, Farsi (or Persian) and Russian. Linguists eventually arrived at the conclusion that all these languages derived from a common ancestral language, which they dubbed Indo-European.

But while North Indian languages are predominantly Indo-European, South Indian languages mostly belong to the Dravidian language family. To explain this, scholars proposed the so-called Aryan invasion theory — that a group of people from outside India swept in and brought a proto-Sanskrit language to northern India. (The name "Aryans" came from a Sanskrit word for "noble" or "honorable.") https://www.livescience.com/59703-north-india-populated-by-central-asian-invaders.html

The thorniest, most fought-over question in Indian history is slowly but surely getting answered: did Indo-European language speakers, who called themselves Aryans, stream into India sometime around 2,000 BC – 1,500 BC when the Indus Valley civilization came to an end, bringing with them Sanskrit and a distinctive set of cultural practices? Genetic research based on an avalanche of new DNA evidence is making scientists around the world converge on an unambiguous answer: yes, they did. https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/how-genetics-is-settling-the-aryan-migration-debate/article19090301.ece

Please, know that the Aryan people did have a superior concept and this is just the facts. I feel that love and truth will change all people ideology as it has done to many people of ethnic cultures today. 

Let me explain, the kingdom of Elam belong to Shem and Cush conquer many of Shem's kingdom. They actually united together a lot in ancient times. The Medes had already settled in Shem's land and then the Persian migrated later on from the Eurasian Steppes into the area of the Elamites. Both the Medes and Persians were Aryan tribes. By taking over the Semitic people land who already mix with the Cushites the skin color shows even today of various shades of White, brown to dark Black and the word Iran means Aryan. The name was changed or hidden because of the religion Islamic. The truth is Islamic was founded by the Aryan tribes who mix with the Kingdom of Elam. Islam was not founded by Shem or Cush Arab people. It was formed from the Persians tribes and that is the truth, who migrated south and north into Arabia! Ishmel sons never went into south Arabia they lived between Egypt and Jordan and they and ancient Yemen the Cushite Arabs were international traders of the time. Gen 9:27 states that Japheth children would dwell in the tents of Shem and this is the truth!

Blessings and Happy Sabbath!

 

 

 

 

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hch
7 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

John: I am sorry that this is so late. I have a lot under my plate, and I had to do some new research.

Let me repeat what I said and then I will explain:

"There were seven major empires of the world: Assyria, Egypt, Neo-Babylon Greece/Rome, and Papal Rome: As great as Rome was it base everything on Greece, it was a shadow of Greece and so are we even today! Our political structure is shaped from Greece all the way to our beliefs system we use Greek words. We only use Latin words for medicine and Catholic change Latin words into its liturgy only!"

...Blessings and Happy Sabbath!

I appreciate the aside. The prophecy has left the ancient kingdoms and moved to the 1929 healing of the 1798 deadly wound and moved to Mussolini and to 1993 and beyond . 

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In 1993, the first World Trade Center bombing killed six people. In 1998, the bombing of two U. S. embassies in Africa killed 224. Both were the work of al-Qaida and bin Laden, who in 1998 declared holy war on America…[1]

The King of the North transitioned to President Clinton. He responded to Osama bin Laden’s attacks 21 August 1998: “U. S. cruise missiles struck targets in Afghanistan… Thursday in what President Clinton described as an act of self-defense against imminent terrorist plots and of retribution for the bombings of U. S. embassies…”[2]

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So, the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither [shall there be any] strength to withstand. But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed (Daniel 11:15-16).

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October 26-29, 1994: President Clinton attended the signing of the Israel-Jordan peace agreement... And spoke to the Knesset in Jerusalem.[3]

The King of the South transitioned back to Iraq. The events described here are repeating events that have been fulfilled historically. This sequencing may not always be chronological. At times, a caveat is interjected to explain details that had been omitted in the narration that needed clarification. The King of the South had moved back to Iraq.

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The December 1998 bombing of Iraq (code-named Operation Desert Fox) was a major four-day bombing campaign on Iraqi targets from 16 December 1998, to 19 December 1998, by the United States and United Kingdom.[4]

After President Clinton, the King of the North, went to the glorious land, his conflict with Iraq put Israel in danger from Iraqi scud missiles. The peace process that Clinton was pushing led to the death of Israel’s Prime Minister.

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He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus, shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand [on his side], neither be for him. After this shall he turn his face unto the isles, and shall take many: but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered by him to cease; without his own reproach he shall cause [it] to turn upon him. Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found (Daniel 11:17-19).

Unlike the symbolic daughter of the King of the South, studied when the 1798 papacy repeated the fulfillment of 11:6, here this is prophesying about a literal woman. Thus 2600 years before Bill and Monica’s affair, Gabriel told Daniel: he that shall give him the daughter of women.

Did someone give Monica to Bill Clinton? Who? Is there an Israeli connection?

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Monica will go down in history as the woman who had sex with an American president and saved an Israeli prime minister.[5]

May 5-8, 1995 Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin Israel Met with President Clinton during a private visit.[6] President Bill Clinton admitted to having had an “inappropriate relationship” while Lewinsky worked at the White House in 1995. She is of Russian Jewish descent.[7]

Then as prophesied: after being corrupted, Monica did not stand on Bill’s side. She produced that infamous dress that caught him in a lie.

The glorious land was consumed. Land: its root links to a moral sense: the impurity of lustful…profligate living (cf Strong). While the USA was consumed with Clinton’s Lewinsky scandal: “On November 4, 1995, Rabin was assassinated…leaving a mass rally in Tel Aviv in support of the Oslo process.”[8]

President Clinton had stood in the glorious land pushing the peace process that led to Rabin’s death! After Clinton went to Israel, during the Monica affair, he returned to Israel for Rabin’s funeral taking upright ones with him.

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In… Living History Hillary Rodham Clinton shows a picture of Bill Clinton, Dole, and Gingrich…on the plane going to Yitzhak Rabin’s funeral in Israel…[9]

While the scandal infatuated America, Clinton went to the British Isles[10] as prophesied. Public focus was redirected to Iraq.[11] Speaker Gingrich of the House of Representatives (a prince in America’s line of succession) caused Clinton’s reproach to cease when he led the House to impeach Clinton[12] for his affair with Monica. “A year before Gingrich became House speaker”[13] he too began having an affair.

The Republican Senate acquitted President Clinton.[14] Was it political suicide to impeach a popular president? Or the reality:

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Incumbents tend to win elections.[15]

If Clinton had been removed from office, Vice President Gore would have become President. With the incumbent advantage, he would have run for president shortly after having been handed the office. To avoid that scenario, President Clinton was allowed to finish his term. But after Clinton lied to America (and apologized), public opinion turned against Gingrich: he caused it to turn upon him (Daniel 11:18). The fallen Clinton stayed in office. Gingrich resigned.[16]

The statement Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found (11:18-19) can also be referring to Prime Minister Rabin, if he is the he that gave Monica to President Clinton. When Rabin returned to Israel, he was killed (he fell).


 

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stinsonmarri
15 hours ago, hch said:

I appreciate the aside. The prophecy has left the ancient kingdoms and moved to the 1929 healing of the 1798 deadly wound and moved to Mussolini and to 1993 and beyond . 

The deadly wound that was healed was the papacy but not as she was before. She was the beast is not, which is true she does not have the political power she once had. She only has ecclesiastical powers, but she is not as powerful as she once were. She was riding and training the beast to regain her worldwide power, but he realized that she was a liar. He left her belief in god and turn to Satan. The beast and his ten future kings as the Bible declare will hate the whore! This is YAHWEH'S fulfillment and she will have Jerusalem/Babylon she runs it now. Go over there and see for yourself, I did I lived there! She along with her daughters have actually taken over the place, Christianity is extremely popular with all the varies denominations! This what she always wanted to rule and Rev 11:2 states that she will rule for 3 1/2 years; that the Time of Trouble. No persecution of the saints, the remnant will stand as Moses and Elijah and the first Four Trumpet they will call down! IT IS THE WRATH OF YAHWEH on the wicked the fourth will cause the sun and moon to move from there original orbit when meteorites hit them. Then comes the three woes! The beast will not be revealed until the end of the 3 1/2 years. He will come down from the bottomless pit in Rev 11:13, 14 under the second woe and when the remnant (the 144,000) had finish gathering in the harvest of souls for YAHWEH. The beast will have one hour with is the end of probation because these two months there is no intercession and Dan 12:7 see YAHSHUA who states: IT IS FINISH and the saints of YAHWEH will scatter in safe havens that YAHSHUA will prepare for them as HE did for Elijah! The reason, the beast, and the false prophet will make war with the papacy, the battle of Armageddon. YAHSHUA is on HIS WAY like a thief in the night! There is more because there are the 7 last plagues and the first woe and the third woe. No Sunday blue law myth, no persecution of the saints because they were in control just like Elijah was with Ahab! I urge and plead that you all pray for understanding and read your Bibles. Everything I have stated it in there just go over it with prayer. Iran will not play a part in the last days, do not let Satan fool you with all this mess, read your Bibles. The people around the Euphrates will dry up to make the way of the king of the east! These kings are a part of the 10 kings who will worship the beast and give their power to him!

Tonight is the beginning of the Holy Convocation of Pentecost and I keep it to pray for the outpouring of THE HOLY SPIRIT! It always falls on a Sunday and I never have to work on this day!

Blessings!

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hch
On 6/16/2019 at 12:34 AM, stinsonmarri said:

... No Sunday blue law myth, no persecution of the saints because they were in control just like Elijah was with Ahab! I urge and plead that you all pray for understanding and read your Bibles. Everything I have stated it in there just go over it with prayer. Iran will not play a part in the last days, do not let Satan fool you with all this mess, read your Bibles. ..

Marri,

I never imagined that you and I were viewing Bible truths from opposite poles.

The challenge prayerfully is to read and study our Bibles. I'm doing it and watching and praying, and praying for you as well.

Christian regards

 

continuing with the study:

The statement: Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found (11:18-19) can in one sense be about Prime Minister Rabin, if he is the he that gave Monica to President Clinton. When Rabin returned to Israel, he was killed (he fell).

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Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes [in] the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle (Daniel 11:20).

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, an endtime raiser of taxes, took Rabin’s place. Raiser: cause to take away – cf Strong. Netanyahu caused 22-40 million tax dollars to be taken away from the Palestinian Authority in 1998.[1] And destroyed can also be rendered broken, maimed, crippled, wrecked (cf Strong). Netanyahu reigned a few days (years prophetically speaking) June 1996 to July 1999 when political corruption allegations crippled him; he was ousted.

Is this a partial prophetic fulfillment? He returned as Prime Minister. He rejected President Obama’s goals for Mideast peace during an 18 March 2015 speech. Within a few days (prophetic years), will he be ousted again, or will Christ’s Coming in glory fulfill this prophecy? His political party is too weak to rule. A special election has been called.

If the statement then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found (11:18-19) is specifically about President Clinton, after his affair with Monica, he was crippled politically (he fell). All of his past popularity was worthless when his wife ran for President. Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes may be about President George Bush II, who turned the Clinton tax surplus into a massive deficit after going to war with Afghanistan and Iraq. But within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle (11:20). Though a few days is not defined in the Bible, Bush II has been out of office for eight years. He is still alive. Daniel 7:11 states that an earth-king is to be destroyed, and given to the burning flame that accompany Christ’s Advent. If that reading is about him, for it to be within a few days or years: Christ’s Second Advent is very close!

 

President Trump has since come into office. He followed the taxation precedence that Bush II set. With promises of prosperity, President Trump had Congress implement tax reform that takes from the treasury now and worsens America’s deficit later if the economy does not soar as he predicts.

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And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries (Daniel 11:21).

Estate is translated as foot 8 out of the 17 times that it occurs in the Bible. In Daniel 2, the idol has two feet. Thus, the word estate in this text links this prophecy to the two feet of the image in Daniel 2. When Nebuchadnezzar’s dynasty fell to Cyrus, Babylon had two kings. Nabonidus, the official king had gone abroad and allowed his son Belshazzar to rule. In the 4-kingdom meaning, Rome had two phases, pagan and papal. The endtime King of the North, President Clinton aligns with the brass midsection of the idol in Daniel 2; Bush II and Obama align with the legs; and Trump aligns with one foot. There is only one foot yet to be explained in the endtime. The most likely President that is being prophesied to align with the last foot in Daniel 2 is Michael Pence.

 

 

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Gregory Matthews

Understanding what the Bible teaches:

*  Sometimes people approach the Bible f rom the perspective of attempting to see what it is saying to include to understand what it says about itself.  This approach places the Bible in charge and it is the Bible that determines what the Bible teaches.  William Miller took this approach.

*  Sometimes people approach the Bible from the perspective of attempting to see what is happening in International life that can be attached to what is written in the Bible.    This approach places civil events   in charge of what the Bible teaches.  

*  Both approaches can lead to error in understanding what the Bible teaches.  The 2nd approach can seem to be correct through mere happenstance.  But this approach places the Bible outside of the divine and into the human realm.  

 

In this thread, we see that 2nd approach used.  

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hch
21 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Understanding what the Bible teaches:

*  Sometimes people approach the Bible f rom the perspective of attempting to see what it is saying to include to understand what it says about itself.  This approach places the Bible in charge and it is the Bible that determines what the Bible teaches.  William Miller took this approach.

*  Sometimes people approach the Bible from the perspective of attempting to see what is happening in International life that can be attached to what is written in the Bible.    This approach places civil events   in charge of what the Bible teaches.  

*  Both approaches can lead to error in understanding what the Bible teaches.  The 2nd approach can seem to be correct through mere happenstance.  But this approach places the Bible outside of the divine and into the human realm.  

 

In this thread, we see that 2nd approach used.  

Each period of the fulfillment of prophetic history is a preparation for the advanced light which will succeed each period. As the prophecy comes to an end, there is to be a perfect whole.  {13MR 15.3}  

 Let no one's interpretation of prophecy rob you of the conviction of the knowledge of events which show that this great event is near at hand.  {FE 335.2} 

Feedback based on Scriptural facts and corresponding historical events that can be discussed and reviewed is helpful..

Feedback that is merely an expression of personal opinions is worthless.

To understand what the Bible teaches, with the aide of the Holy Spirit one must discern between facts and opinions. 

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hch

Examining the Prophecies

Daniel 9 gives the starting point for the 2300-year prophecy. It was fulfilled from 457 BC through events in Christ’s Day. The command in Revelation 10 to prophesy again repeats Daniel 9 bringing it to President Bush II.

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The burden of Christ's preaching was, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent ye, and believe the gospel.” Thus, the gospel message, as given by the Saviour Himself, was based on the prophecies. The “time” which He declared to be fulfilled was the period made known by the angel Gabriel to Daniel. “Seventy weeks,” said the angel, “are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.” Daniel 9:24. A day in prophecy stands for a year. See Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6. The seventy weeks, or four hundred and ninety days, represent four hundred and ninety years. A starting point for this period is given: “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks,” sixty-nine weeks, or four hundred and eighty-three years. Daniel 9:25. The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem, as completed by the decree of Artaxerxes Longimanus (see Ezra 6:14; 7:1, 9, margin), went into effect in the autumn of B. C. 457. From this time four hundred and eighty-three years extend to the autumn of A. D. 27. According to the prophecy, this period was to reach to the Messiah, the Anointed One. In A. D. 27, Jesus at His baptism received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, and soon afterward began His ministry. Then the message was proclaimed. “The time is fulfilled.”[1]

The time that was fulfilled in Christ’s Day foreshadows a complete and final fulfillment in our day when Daniel stands in his lot. Thus, his prophecies repeat.

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As the message of Christ’s First Advent announced the kingdom of His grace, so the message of His Second Advent announces the kingdom of His glory. And the second message, like the first, is based on the prophecies. The words of the angel to Daniel relating to the last days were to be understood in the time of the end.[2]

The message of Christ’s First Advent was based on the prophecies in Daniel 9 & 11. The message of Christ’s Second Advent is based on these prophecies when they repeat.

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These prophecies had been literally fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth…the sure word of prophecy.[3]

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The time has come for Daniel to stand in his lot. The time has come for the light given him to go to the world as never before. If those for whom the Lord has done so much will walk in the light, their knowledge of Christ and the prophecies relating to Him will be greatly increased as they near the close of this earth’s history.[4]

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Not at first had God revealed the exact time of the first advent; and even when the prophecy of Daniel made this known, not all rightly interpreted the message.[5]


[1] DA 233.1

[2] DA 234.4

[3] AA 124.3, ed

[4] 21MR 407.3, ed

[5] PK 700.1

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