Jump to content
Kingdom of Adventistan
Sign in to follow this  
Gregory Matthews

SDA Fundamentalism

Recommended Posts

8thdaypriest

The arguments get so very complicated.  The Catholic "Trinity" is not the same as the SDA "trio".  I'm not sure I understand either one, not clearly.  I just know I believe the Bible does not teach a Trinity, or a "trio" - either one.  The Bible teaches Father and Son.  The Father sends His own spirit, through His Son. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you find some value to this community, please help out with a few dollars per month.

JoeMo
5 hours ago, Gustave said:

Zeph 3,4
The just Lord is in the midst thereof; he will NOT do iniquity: every morning doth he bring his judgment to light, he faileth not; but the unjust knoweth no shame

The verse says He WILL NOT do iniquity; it doesn't say He CANNOT do iniquity.  Jesus as God has always been a Being with a free will.  He is a much higher order Being than I am. I have a free will and am capable of sin, Jesus has at least as much (probably much more) power of choice than we mere mortals have.  Jesus CHOSE to be a gracious and merciful God.  He didn't HAVE to be.  He could have "uncreated" us in less than microsecond and started over.  Had He wanted to, He could have said "to hell with you all" and not died for us.  How many times in the OT did He turn back from the terminating what He intended to do to His Chosen people? Jesus CHOSE to be obedient - even unto death on a cross.  Obedience involves a choice; and Jesus always "chose" right.  But He didn't have to.  If it were impossible for Him to sin, satan would have every right to call "foul".

When God said He WILL NOT sin, that was foreknowledge - not predestination.  There's a big difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
phkrause
On 7/12/2019 at 3:59 PM, Gustave said:

When Jesus said "it is finished" on the cross do you understand He was referencing His current status, i.e. He was all washed up & finished?

I'm in agreement with JoeMo and 8thdaypriest and would add that, that it also ended the need for the animal sacrificies, etc.!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gustave
2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

The verse says He WILL NOT do iniquity; it doesn't say He CANNOT do iniquity.  Jesus as God has always been a Being with a free will.  He is a much higher order Being than I am. I have a free will and am capable of sin, Jesus has at least as much (probably much more) power of choice than we mere mortals have.  Jesus CHOSE to be a gracious and merciful God.  He didn't HAVE to be.  He could have "uncreated" us in less than microsecond and started over.  Had He wanted to, He could have said "to hell with you all" and not died for us.  How many times in the OT did He turn back from the terminating what He intended to do to His Chosen people? Jesus CHOSE to be obedient - even unto death on a cross.  Obedience involves a choice; and Jesus always "chose" right.  But He didn't have to.  If it were impossible for Him to sin, satan would have every right to call "foul".

When God said He WILL NOT sin, that was foreknowledge - not predestination.  There's a big difference.

You've answered you own question.

God said He knows the end from the beginning.

A)

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

b)

Isaiah 35,4: has "GOD" saying that He would come and He would Save us.

If you believe Scripture and base your Doctrine off "Scripture alone" you must concede that God cannot tell a lie.

C)

Hebrews 6,18: Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us

IF God knows everything that has and will happen in the future AND God said in the remote past that He would Come and He would save us AND God cannot tell a lie  - the logic chain reveals there was no possibility of Christ sinning and loosing His Salvation because God said He wouldn't, approximately 4000 years before the Manifestation of God in the flesh. 

If A = B and B = C than A = C.

Apply this logic chain against the hypothetical argument of Arius and Ellen White who each asserted that Christ was mutable and therefore could have sinned and lost His Salvation. 

I'll wait for you to address my logic Chain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gustave
4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

This is on the order of other questions.  Like:  Can God create a rock that He can't lift? 

If God the Father is "above all and through all and in all"  then He is the omnipresent great holy Spirit.  So why would He be "passing by" a star?  He is everywhere.  He exists outside this dimension He created. 

One tiny sun going super nova would not cause much of a shock wave - in godly terms.  There are as many suns in our universe as there are grains of sand on all the beaches.  If I stepped on a tiny grain of sand, and it exploded.  It wouldn't do that much to my foot. 

If God the Father ceased to exist - everything else would die.  Because He is the source of life, (and continued life) for every living thing. 

Thank you. 

God [Substance] The Father (Person)

God [Substance] The Son (Person)

God [Substance] The Holy Spirit (Person)

You asserted above that God passing by a sun that went super nova would not even cause a shock wave to God. This is because you believe that The Father is of a DIFFERENT SUBSTANCE than the Son, which is, classic Arianism.

Historic Christianity teaches that the Three Person's of the Holy Trinity share in the ONE Substance (which is God). 

This is not within the order of a question that asks if God can create a rock so heavy He can't lift. 

The fact is that what makes The Son,  God is the identical thing that makes The Father & Holy Spirit, God. 

Therefore if The Father is eternal so is the Son and Holy Spirit because all share the ONE Substance which is God.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gustave
1 hour ago, phkrause said:

I'm in agreement with JoeMo and 8thdaypriest and would add that, that it also ended the need for the animal sacrificies, etc.!!

Good deal. 

Question: WHY have I heard and observed so many SDA's attributing "it is finished" to Jesus being all washed up and kaput because He thought the Father couldn't look at Him? Where do so many SDA's get this notion from? Did Ellen White make a teaching on this or something? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JoeMo
39 minutes ago, Gustave said:

Good deal. 

Question: WHY have I heard and observed so many SDA's attributing "it is finished" to Jesus being all washed up and kaput because He thought the Father couldn't look at Him? Where do so many SDA's get this notion from? Did Ellen White make a teaching on this or something? 

I'm not anywhere near an expert on EGW; but I have never heard this before from her or even other SDA's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JoeMo
54 minutes ago, Gustave said:

God said He knows the end from the beginning.

Just because He knows it doesn't mean He predestined it.  God is transcendent of time; so He knows the end from the beginning.  It's obvious from the history of humanity that God has respected man's free will to do evil.  But He has a plan; and in that plan the universe will eventually be sin free; not because we are incapable of sin; but because we will CHOOSE to never sin again.  Jesus CHOSE to be sin free; just as we all must eventually do.  I personally don't believe that happens in this age; but only when we lose our predisposition to sin when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gustave
6 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

I'm not anywhere near an expert on EGW; but I have never heard this before from her or even other SDA's.

I'm not exaggerating when I say I've heard it many, many times. Granted, I've been involved with apologetics for many years now but it's been a recurrent theme I've heard from SDA's for well over 20 years. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gustave
3 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Just because He knows it doesn't mean He predestined it.  God is transcendent of time; so He knows the end from the beginning.  It's obvious from the history of humanity that God has respected man's free will to do evil.  But He has a plan; and in that plan the universe will eventually be sin free; not because we are incapable of sin; but because we will CHOOSE to never sin again.  Jesus CHOSE to be sin free; just as we all must eventually do.  I personally don't believe that happens in this age; but only when we lose our predisposition to sin when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye.

Yes, God does respect human (and angelic) free will & also is transcendent of time. Jesus is (and has always been) "God" therefore saying Jesus chose NOT to sin would be like saying The Father has thus far chosen not to sin.

Are you saying that the Father could sin but chooses not to? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JoeMo
2 minutes ago, Gustave said:

I'm not exaggerating when I say I've heard it many, many times. Granted, I've been involved with apologetics for many years now but it's been a recurrent theme I've heard from SDA's for well over 20 years. 

It's entirely possible.  I'm not the world's most conventional SDA; and the SDA churches I have attended for the past 10 years are somewhat less than traditional congregations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JoeMo
1 minute ago, Gustave said:

Are you saying that the Father could sin but chooses not to? 

That's a tricky question. I could answer yes; because the Father also has a free will.  I could also say no, because I hesitate to say that out of respect for God; because anything the Father does may "automatically" be right.

Hmmm ... maybe the same thing could be said about Jesus?  IMHO, maybe in His glorified/spiritual form; but not His human form.

I also feel like I'm being driven into a corner - not tn a mean way; but in a challenging way.  You are definitely making me think hard about this.  Thanks for the brain stimulation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gustave
41 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

That's a tricky question. I could answer yes; because the Father also has a free will.  I could also say no, because I hesitate to say that out of respect for God; because anything the Father does may "automatically" be right.

Hmmm ... maybe the same thing could be said about Jesus?  IMHO, maybe in His glorified/spiritual form; but not His human form.

I also feel like I'm being driven into a corner - not tn a mean way; but in a challenging way.  You are definitely making me think hard about this.  Thanks for the brain stimulation.

The Two Natures (Divine & Human) were perfectly united and NOT mixed or blended. 

Jesus was ONE PERSON with two Natures.

It was the position of Arius that the two natures were BLENDED with the human contaminating the Divine (which was understood to UNLIKE the Devine Substance of the Father).

Ironically, Ellen White, despite being religiously educated as a Methodist discarded the Trinity Doctrine of the Methodist Church and vigorously began defending the position that Jesus was "mutable" and that the two Natures had become blended. This blending caused Jesus to yearn for sin but I'll concede that Ellen also was clear that Christ resisted the pull of sins He urged for.

I know that on the old Christian Forms there existed a "Traditional SDA" section and a "Progressive SDA" section. From what I recall these two groups were sort of at odds with each other. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gregory Matthews

It is finished:  There seems to be some discussion going on as to what EGW meant when she commented on the statement, "It is  finished.""

The following quote from EGW suggests to me that she believed that statement meant that salvation was accomplished.

 

After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. John 19:13-30. { CSA 35.1 }

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gregory Matthews

Here is a 2nd quote from EGW on this issue.  I understand it to be a statement by EGW, to the effect that Christ on the cross, in his  human element was discouraged.  But, he overcame that and in the announced that salvation had been accomplished.

 

The spotless Son of God hung upon the cross, His flesh lacerated with stripes; those hands so often reached out in blessing, nailed to the wooden bars; those feet so tireless on ministries of love, spiked to the tree; that royal head pierced by the crown of thorns; those quivering lips shaped to the cry of woe. And all that He endured—the blood drops that flowed from His head, His hands, His feet, the agony that racked His frame, and the unutterable anguish that filled His soul at the hiding of His Father’s face—speaks to each child of humanity, declaring, It is for thee that the Son of God consents to bear this burden of guilt; for thee He spoils the domain of death, and opens the gates of Paradise.... { CSA 39.6 }


Suddenly the gloom lifted from the cross, and in clear, trumpetlike tones, that seemed to resound throughout creation, Jesus cried, “It is finished.”“Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit.” A light encircled the cross, and the face of the Saviour shone with a glory like the sun. He then bowed His head upon His breast, and died. 64 { CSA 39.7 }

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

If you find some value to this community, please help out with a few dollars per month.



×
×
  • Create New...