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One of the hottest topics in the news today is the crisis at the border, and what to do with as many as 22 million undocumented immigrants in this country.  I agree that we cannot allow this invasion to continue; especially giving these immigrants the same (or more) privileges than citizens have - especially when some of those citizens are living in abject poverty on the streets.

On the other hand, I look in scripture at how God expects us to treat aliens.  Matt. 25 divides the sheep and the goats by saying whatever you did/ did not do for the least of my brothers, that you do to Me.  How does that bode for Christians who want to exclude or deport all undocumented immigrants from the U.S.  But this is a question for Christians.

Christians or not, should the general citizenry of the U.S be forced by the government (one way or another) to support those immigrants who just want to live "free" (in more ways than one) in the U.S? Is it the U.S.'s fault that conditions on the border are so horrible; or is it the fact that ICE and the Border Patrol are simply overwhelmed by the number of migrants?

On the other hand, if we deport all undocumented immigrants, who would pick up our trash, harvest our crops, wash our toilets and floors, or work construction in the blazing heat for the wages many of these folks work at? What would that do to our cost of living?

Or should we just ignore any potential moral implications of the issue and decide their fate based on economic and national security issues alone?

This is not a simple matter that can be solved from a moral, national security, and an economic in a 45 minute "meeting of the minds" between Dems and Republicans, as some leaders seem to think.  There are negative implications on both sides of the coin.

What do you think?

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To respond to your last post would take more time than I am prepared to give right now.  I consider the problem to be very complex and I do not want to over simplify a solution. But, I will make a few

Here are a few more things from the HAIS: 1-When the World Food Program made significant cuts in food aid for Darfuri refugees living in two refugee camps in Eastern Chad, many of the people who

Joe: They are wrong because you have a right to your political views. Politic and racism are not the same thing. Many Blacks are Conservative Republicans they do not go along with what's happening tod

56 minutes ago, phkrause said:

My first question is why are they all coming to the US now??

They have been coming for years.  There are just many more of them now than ever before.  The economy here is so much better than in Mexico.  Their own countries are rife with increasing violence.  There is great incentive for them to come here.

Underneath that, I can't help but think that there is a clandestine effort going on to organize and sponsor these "caravans" to the U.S. in an effort to "globalize" our country and increase the vote in this country for those politicians who support globalism.  Not to mention cartels that are willing to take exorbitant fees to get them here.

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12 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

They have been coming for years.

Yes, Mexicans have been coming for years, but not the last 2 years!! They have been coming because there countries are in turmoil and now the money has been stopped, so its even worse.

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Gregory Matthews


So, based upon what has been posted here, it may be critical to treat the root cause that is behind their journey to the U.S.  IOW, treat it in their home countries.

 

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3 hours ago, phkrause said:

Yes, Mexicans have been coming for years, but not the last 2 years!! They have been coming because there countries are in turmoil and now the money has been stopped, so its even worse.

2017 had the highest level of illegal immigrant crossings since the 1990's.  2018 was even higher. 2019 is trending to be a record year.

Am I correct to infer that you think we should them keep coming; or at least let the ones that are already here stay?  If so, should they have the same rights as legal citizens, including the right to vote?  Just a question, no judgement or disagreement intended.  As stated in my first post, I'm kinda conflicted over it myself.  I know some decent, hard-working undocumented immigrants that are afraid to go back to Mexico to see their families for fear that they won't be able to get back into the U.S.  I feel badly for them.

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2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:


So, based upon what has been posted here, it may be critical to treat the root cause that is behind their journey to the U.S.  IOW, treat it in their home countries.

 

Is that the responsibility of the U.S., who has already given billions to these countries; or is it the responsibility of their home countries?

I remember back in the 1960's when U.S. families sponsored Cuban families that came over as refugees.  Is that even a viable option in the 21st century?

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Gregory Matthews

The history of the billions that you say have been given to those countries will show that the money give has not been unrestricted.  The money given has often been restricted as to how it may be used.   Yes, it is the responsibility of the U.S. to determine whether or not that money has both been used as intended and in addition to determine the manner in which such gifts should be used.

So, yes, if the U.S. is to gift another country, it is appropriate for the U.S. to mandate that such funds be used in a manner that addresses the root causes of problems that began in that country and are manifest themselves in our country.

NOTE:  In my former training as a military officer, one of my aspects of training was the State Department and the manner and background that typically was associated with funds given to a government.    In brief:  the money given to other countries typically was restricted to be used in a manner that facilitated the purposes of the U.S.  It was often not a free   gift.

 

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21 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Is that the responsibility of the U.S., who has already given billions to these countries; or is it the responsibility of their home countries?

From what I understand its not billions and Trump has been threatening to cut the funds for about 2 years, if I'm not mistaken?

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2 hours ago, phkrause said:

From what I understand its not billions and Trump has been threatening to cut the funds for about 2 years, if I'm not mistaken?

You are correct about him cutting off funds; but the aggregate over the 8 years of the Obama Administration that was sent to these countries amounted to billions.  It bought us nothing.  He cut off the funding to discourage these countries from sending their most wretched people, gang members, and criminals  to the U.S and turning a blind eye to coyotes who are transporting them to our border.  I think part of Trump's strategy in dealing with countries acting contrary to the interests of the United States is to bypass politics and go straight to economics to pressure other countries to comply with his idea of the desires of the American people.  He's doing it with China , Turkey, Russia, and Iran as well.

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14 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

In brief:  the money given to other countries typically was restricted to be used in a manner that facilitated the purposes of the U.S.  It was often not a free   gift.

How strictly were the restrictions enforced?  My guess is not very well some of the time.  I see how wealthy some of the leaders of these countries have become at the expense of the people they govern.  Could some ( or a lot) of that "restricted" money have gone to line the pockets of these government officials?

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Gregory Matthews

JoMo: The restrictions could be enforced and at the same time, government officials could benefit.

Let me illustrate:

*  A U.S. grant to another country may require the employment of people.  The U.S. does not determine who is employed.  That country decides who to hire.

*  A U.S. grant my be for construction (restoration of an electrical grid, for example).  The company chosen by that nation may be a company that results in the enrichment of government officials.

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:backtopic:

Back to the original question - how do we deal with this crisis in a safe, secure, and humane way that is fair to those who spent lots of money and many years becoming citizens the legal way?

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Gregory Matthews

O.K. JoMo,  Let us begin by establishing some common understanding:

*  Both International and U.S. law serve as a basis for the  manner in which the U.S. deals with these people.  International law is a factor due to the fact that the U.S. has agreed to the provisions of International law.  U.S. law, then goes beyond International to provide the boundaries under which the International law is applied.  Bo, the statuary basis lies in both International and domestic law. 

*  Refugee:  This Is a person who is outside of the boundaries of the country of citizenship and I prevented from returning to the country of citizenship.  One example would be of a citizen who was expelled from the country of citizenship.

*  Asylum:  This applies to a person who has fled the country of citizenship due to persecution.  As practiced under International law, this person is generally given refugee status while the claim of asylum is investigated.   

*  Typically, the United States, is responsible for granting the above status to about 10% of the people who are granted either refugee or asylum statue.  IOW, other countries grant above status to about 90% of the people who are granted such status,

*  Both International and domestic law prescribe the manner in which people who apply for refugee/asylum states be administratively processed.
 

A major part of the problem that exists today is that the current administration is alleged to fail to comply with International and domestic law as to how these people are administratively processed.  This is resulting in on-going litigation in which the courts are being asked to enforce the applicable provisions of both International and domestic law.

It would be a major start in addressing this issue if the U.S. government would comply with the provisions of applicable law.  Probably just about all of the on-going decisions against the U.S. government have been based upon the ruling of the Court that applicable law has been violated.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

A major part of the problem that exists today is that the current administration is alleged to fail to comply with International and domestic law as to how these people are administratively processed. 

I agree.  It this because of the negligence of the current administration; or is it because the Border Patrol is completely overwhelmed - partly due to those who unconditionally thwart anything this administration wants to do to get the problem under control?

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Gregory Matthews

To respond to your last post would take more time than I am prepared to give right now.  I consider the problem to be very complex and I do not want to over simplify a solution. But, I will make a few brief responses which may suggest areas for more in-depth discussion:

*  This issue can not be resolved by people who  do not understand the root cause of the problem well enough to propose a solution.

*  This issue needs more than money thrown at a solution that makes for a good "sound bite," But actually does little to resolve the issue.

*  International and domestic laws must govern and be complied with.   Litigation that forces us to comply simply wastes financial resources that could be better spent and wastes time.

*  Any solution must have the approval to society.   We are a nation that is divided as to  political issues.  This solution must be bi-partisan, which may mean that no side gets everything,  but everyone gets something.   In the U.S. today, it may take bi-partisan compromise in order to govern. 

*  This issue has reached the point where  a root cause as to why people are fleeing their home countries must be addressed in those nations.  People who want to continue to live in their home countries are not going to seek  refugee/asylum status.

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15 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

I consider the problem to be very complex and I do not want to over simplify a solution.

I agree!  Hence - the quandary.  Much of the quandary is geo-political.  But I think there may be a spiritual component to this as well.  As Christians (independent of political ideology), what is our appropriate "good work" to these people?  Can there be such a thing as a solution that if "fair" to all; or is "fair" just a subjective term? 

OTOH,  migrants who sneak into this country illegally are breaking the law.  Sure, some are escaping persecution, but many are also just seeking "free" care, housing, food, etc.  How to we efficiently and accurately vet the "wheat" from the "tares"?

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3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

And most of us don't even know it yet.

I do and it is sad because is has to do with racism! There is one race all of us are related because we all come from the Adam's. But this is more deeper Satan is trying to stop the prophecies of Revelation being fulfilled!

 

6 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I agree!  Hence - the quandary.  Much of the quandary is geo-political.  But I think there may be a spiritual component to this as well.  As Christians (independent of political ideology), what is our appropriate "good work" to these people?  Can there be such a thing as a solution that if "fair" to all; or is "fair" just a subjective term? 

OTOH,  migrants who sneak into this country illegally are breaking the law.  Sure, some are escaping persecution, but many are also just seeking "free" care, housing, food, etc.  How to we efficiently and accurately vet the "wheat" from the "tares"?

It is sad to me this was Indian land so all except the slaves came here as immigrants. Including some African Blacks read the history of Charleston! No one should break the law! But if the law is not upheld by the leaders of the country and allowing children and babies to be cage like cattle I see the same history being repeated to like my ancestor who did not ask to come here!

Blessing!

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On 7/23/2019 at 2:47 PM, JoeMo said:

One of the hottest topics in the news today is the crisis at the border

The main crisis is a man who thinks he is above the law! I know I will be put down but I must stand up for justice! Russia hack into our election read the Senate Intelligence Report that is out today. Mullier even though appeared old and stoic stated clearly about obstruction of justice. If some of you want a dictator I don't. It is worse then the immigrants the four ladies are not immigrants! I have been involved with politics since I turned 20 and I have heard both parties criticized each other rather they were right or wrong! Let me make this clear the Democrats have been wrong many times too! But, their view freedom of religion is my view. Not everything I accept with both parties but I believe in everyone has a right to choose! I love the sinner and hate the sin. I have been a sinner too! There something about to happen and it not going to very good unless THE MOST HIGH intervene! That's all I have to say except I love you all from the bottom of my heart!

Blessings!

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1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

The main crisis is a man who thinks he is above the law!

Please don't turn this into a rant against Trump or a political debate.  There is enough blame to go around in both parties and in Obama's administration as well.  Let's not forget that it was an Obama Executive Order that mandated separation of children.

All the overcrowding would not be an issue if so many people weren't coming to our borders.  In addition, while the numbers of adult males and unaccompanied children have remained relatively constant over the past few years, the number of families seeking refuge has soared.  That really complicates things for ICE and the Border Patrol.  Please pray for them. 

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12 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Let's not forget that it was an Obama Executive Order that mandated separation of children.

Can I see that mandate? Because if I'm not mistaken this is a lie that Trump has kept going!!!!!

Here are some links (and by the way there are 100s of them):

US border: Who decided to separate families?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44303556

Trump digs in on false claim that he stopped Obama’s family separation policy

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/04/10/trump-digs-false-claim-that-he-stopped-obamas-family-separation-policy/?utm

Was the ‘Law to Separate Families’ Passed in 1997 or ‘by Democrats’?

There is no federal law mandating children and parents be separated at the border; a policy resulting in that outcome was enacted in May 2018.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/was-law-separate-families-passed-1997/

 

Do you know what the HAIS organization is? Its the organization that brought my family here to America after my Father spent 5 years in concentration camps! Jews at that time were not welcome in the USA in the early 50s and late 40s, just like what's going on at the border today!!

Here is what they stand for: "Welcome the stranger and Protect the refuge!"

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13 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Please don't turn this into a rant against Trump or a political debate.  There is enough blame to go around in both parties and in Obama's administration as well.  Let's not forget that it was an Obama Executive Order that mandated separation of children.

All the overcrowding would not be an issue if so many people weren't coming to our borders.  In addition, while the numbers of adult males and unaccompanied children have remained relatively constant over the past few years, the number of families seeking refuge has soared.  That really complicates things for ICE and the Border Patrol.  Please pray for them. 

Joe did you not mention President Obama? I never mention a name at all! You are my friend but you are not being fair. I did not say anything or commented when you made your comment. I know how you feel that is why I respected you without mentioning a name. But I heard Mullier and I believed him and that's my right. If you don't want to that's your right! My prayer is that we can comment with each other about the facts without becoming angry or violent, that never solves anything. Even the Bible say come let us reason together! 

In Conclusion I believe in justice for all! You and I are truly brothers and sisters for THE MOST HIGH, do let anyone or anything take that away!

With love and blessings Marrian!

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On 7/23/2019 at 6:35 PM, phkrause said:

My first question is why are they all coming to the US now??

They have been coming for years, more doing the Administration of President Obama! Did his administration handle thing correctly no, not in all cases. He had his problem as did the Bushes, Clinton and even Ragan and so on. More are coming because many of the gangs were deported back to their country. Drugs grow in warm climates and they begin to control it. Plus these South American countries government were already corrupt. These deported gangs were advance coming from USA and they knew that these governments were all about greed. They now had a free hand to make young children join them. They still rival and compete for the drug and sex traffic. American cannot complain at all they are the ones  who have the money and allow all these sex massage parlors. Wealthy men like Epstein are apart of it along with the drugs. It is becoming an epidemic. It has been building up for years.

These people want freedom for their children, just like the early settlers wanted freedom from England. This land belong to the Indians and the Hispanic that we call Mexico. South America is more than Mexico. Keep in mind that the slave trade did not only exist here but also in those countries as well. What right do any of us over land? People for centuries have fought each over land and to control others right. If they can come and work they bring in taxes.

Let, me say this in closing did you hear about a Mexican boy who was born here. They did not believe him and he had papers to prove it. He stayed in Detention for over 23 days. You should listen to his story. I ache how we can think that these people come and die to be free. Where is our compassion who are less fortunate then you and me. What happen to those who claim to love THE MOST HIGH?

Happy Sabbath and blessings!

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