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Gregory Matthews

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JoeMo
1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

You will say that you are not seeking to be justified through animal sacrifices.  You just want to continue doing something that God commanded Ancient Israel to do.

I'm guessing this is precisely why orthodox Jews will reinstate the sacrificial system if/when a new Temple is built. Some very fundamental Christians might join in as well.

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Ron Amnsn
2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The land area promised to Abraham's Seed, is much larger than the area currently in the "possession" of the geopolitical nation calling itself Israel.  "Abraham's Seed" - the "Seed of promise" - is Jesus Christ, and "if you are Christ's then you are Abraham's Seed".  Which means that nearly all of the descendants of Jacob, currently living within the borders of the geopolitical nation named "Israel" are NOT "Abraham's Seed" - at least according to Paul in Galatians.  They have defined themselves as "a Jewish nation" - which means they have officially rejected the man Jesus of Nazareth as "the Christ". 

I have some serious reservations about the way you have interpreted and applied Paul's statements in Galatians because your conclusions seem to conflict with Paul's conclusions and to conflict with what Paul said elsewhere, and to conflict with a number of other passages of Scripture.  I will give this more thought before I respond in detail.

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BlessedMan
3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Let's just say the Temple is rebuilt on the Mount at Jerusalem, and reconsecrated with the ashes of the Red Heifer.  Let's say a priesthood of men with the right DNA is consecrated to minister there.  Do you really think they will admit Christians?  No way!  They will require Pharisaic circumcision, with instruction, and likely a verbal rejection of Jesus as Messiah. 

Even if they do restore the Temple, with sacrifices, I doubt any one of us would be admitted there.  

So glad that Christ has already made atonement - for me, and I am justified before God, by faith. 

Good point. There may well be a "Temple" built there again one day; HOWEVER, I am confident that it will not be THE TEMPLE that the prophecy is referring to.

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8thdaypriest
16 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I'm guessing this is precisely why orthodox Jews will reinstate the sacrificial system if/when a new Temple is built. Some very fundamental Christians might join in as well.

The Evangelicals will donate money to help, just to hasten fulfillment of prophecy and to get the promised blessing.

I wonder if the 90% of the population who are NOT even believers in God much less Orthodox, would vote for such an expensive project.

I'm sure the Pope will want to visit.  Wonder if he is circumcised. 

I wonder how folks living next to the Temple will like living downwind from a stockyard.  Would smell like the county fair, with a lot of incense.

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8thdaypriest
15 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

I have some serious reservations about the way you have interpreted and applied Paul's statements in Galatians because your conclusions seem to conflict with Paul's conclusions and to conflict with what Paul said elsewhere, and to conflict with a number of other passages of Scripture.  I will give this more thought before I respond in detail.

Galatians 3:29 "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (NKJ)

 If you are (not) Christ's, then you are (not) Abraham's seed, and you will (not) inherit the land promised.

Paul says, "And thus all Israel will be saved." 

Paul also said, "Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: 'Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, the remnant will be saved.'"   (Rom 9:27)

A "remnant" is not "all" - unless you understand that one is an "Israelite" - by faith in Jesus Christ. 

"All" those "in Christ" will be saved

Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father but through me."  

No one - not even DNA descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 

  Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first-born." (NAS)

This verse is often quoted to convince us that all Jews "will be saved".  Nothing in this verse says "all".   The Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, and thousands of Jews believed.  They did "mourn" for what had happened to Jesus.  

 

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JoeMo
56 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Paul says, "And thus all Israel will be saved." 

I think Paul is talking here about all Israel who believes and that remains at His appearing; not every descendant of Jacob that ever lived.

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BlessedMan
2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I think Paul is talking here about all Israel who believes and that remains at His appearing; not every descendant of Jacob that ever lived.

Definitely agree with this:

Quote

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: (Rom 9:6)

 

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8thdaypriest

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, (Heb 12:22 NAS)

He who remains in THIS Jerusalem will remain "saved". 

 Isaiah 4:3 "And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy-- everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem." (NKJ)

He who "is left" and "remains" is definitely "the remnant". 

No "once saved - always saved" taught here. 

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Ron Amnsn
On 10/9/2019 at 6:54 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Let's just say the Temple is rebuilt on the Mount at Jerusalem, and reconsecrated with the ashes of the Red Heifer.  Let's say a priesthood of men with the right DNA is consecrated to minister there.  Do you really think they will admit Christians?  No way!  They will require Pharisaic circumcision, with instruction, and likely a verbal rejection of Jesus as Messiah. 

Even if they do restore the Temple, with sacrifices, I doubt any one of us would be admitted there

In the present situation it does seem unlikely that Christians would be admitted to the Temple courts.  However, God apparently has a plan to bring it about.  Part of the prophecy at the beginning of Isaiah 56 says this:

“And the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord, to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant— these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.” The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, declares, “I will gather yet others to him besides those already gathered.”

When Jesus zealously cleared the Temple of merchants he quoted a part of this prophecy, which indicates that Jesus expected that this prophecy would be fulfilled some day.  When do you expect that to happen?

God could bring that about by raising up a generation of foreigners (perhaps Christians) who hold fast to God's covenant, and/or by putting men into leadership at the Temple who desire to see this prophecy fulfilled.

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Ron Amnsn

Another indicator that God intended that the same instructions that Jesus himself lived by were intended for all the descendants of Adam (rather than just for the Israelites) is found in the title by which Jesus referred to himself, "the Son of Man".  In Hebrew and Aramaic that title was "the Son of Adam". 

If Jesus were intending to show that the instructions YHWH gave to the Israelites were only for the Israelites, he could have referred to himself as "Son of Israel" or "Son of Judah".  But instead, Jesus chose to refer to himself as "the Son of Adam" while he lived according to the laws that YHWH gave through Moses.  Thus Jesus showed that "the Way" he lived himself was appropriate for any descendant of Adam who chose to be a follower of "the Son of Man".

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8thdaypriest
5 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

In the present situation it does seem unlikely that Christians would be admitted to the Temple courts.  However, God apparently has a plan to bring it about.  Part of the prophecy at the beginning of Isaiah 56 says this:

“And the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord, to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant— these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.” The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, declares, “I will gather yet others to him besides those already gathered.”

When Jesus zealously cleared the Temple of merchants he quoted a part of this prophecy, which indicates that Jesus expected that this prophecy would be fulfilled some day.  When do you expect that to happen?

God could bring that about by raising up a generation of foreigners (perhaps Christians) who hold fast to God's covenant, and/or by putting men into leadership at the Temple who desire to see this prophecy fulfilled.

Ron,

I believe that a "miracle" will "save Israel" (the geopolitical nation) from destruction at the hands of Muslim nations.  The Dome and Mosque will be destroyed in the process, and possibly caves and tombs opened, which may bring about the discovery and recovery of the actual Ark of the Covenant.   At that point, Israel will want to rebuild the Temple as the House of the Ark.  The Third Temple Institute has all the pieces (except the Ark) ready to go. 

I believe that Satan has been working to bring about his masterpiece of deception.  I believe he (or a man that he channels) will appear in that Temple, claiming to be the one who saved Israel from destruction.  He will quote Isaiah 56, and will bring "all peoples" to that Temple to worship himself.

 Revelation 13:13 "He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

He "will take away the daily sacrifices" and will place there the Abomination that causes desolation (Daniel 11:31).

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." (NKJ)

The only person allowed to "sit" within the Temple court was "the Son of David" - the anointed King.  Who does that tell you this being is claiming to be?  Yup.  Jesus Christ.

He will claim to be the messiah figure for all religions.  He will claim to be an alien who visited earth again and again over thousands of years. 

The whole world will worship him - except those who have received "the seal of God". 

Revelation 13:8 "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

That is how I believe the rebuilt Temple will be used by the Evil One.  Just how I see things. 

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BlessedMan
12 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." (NKJ)

may I ask, please, how you read this verse? Is it talking about "the" as in a literal temple of some kind, or, something that is claimed to be "the" temple?  Just wondering how others might be thinking of this verse.

Off the cuff; it doesnt seem to me that this temple would be very "deceptive" because if its ever rebuilt, I am sure all will know about it. Its also not really needed for "end time events." I am also unclear, going by this thread what "the" Temple has to do with "being under the law."

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8thdaypriest
Just now, 8thdaypriest said:

their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.”

I believe that prophecies can have levels of meaning.  God's desire was that His "house" would "be called a house of prayer for all peoples".   His desire has been waylaid for centuries and centuries. 

Because a prophecy says "burnt offerings" and "sacrifices" does not require that the fulfillment include literal "burnt" offerings. 

Jesus IS our "burnt offering".  He IS our Lamb.   We ourselves are also offerings. 

Romans 12:1 "Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God-- this is your true and proper worship." (NIV)

Thousands were literally "burned" in the arena.  They gave their lives as "sacrifices" to God.  Paul called himself "a drink offering".  He could not elevate himself, and compared himself with the "drink offering" that was offered with THE Sacrifice. 

2 Timothy 4:6 "For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand." (NKJ)

As I see it,  in the Kingdom Temple for "the rest of the dead",  during the 8th millennium:

Isaiah 11:9 "They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea." (NIV)

Isaiah 65:25 "The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion eat straw like an ox (but the serpent- its food will be dust). They will not hurt or destroy anywhere on my holy mountain," says ADONAI." (CJB)

If you've ever visited a slaughter-house (as I did regularly as a kid with my grandfather who owned a meat market), you'd know that slitting the throats of animals and watching them terrified as they bleed out, IS "hurt" and is "destruction".  The animals waiting are terrified because they smell the blood and hear the screams of the animals before them.  Sin causes death.  That was the lesson, at that time, for that agrarian people. 

In the Kingdom Temple, they can hear the story of the Cross.  Who knows?  Maybe even see a flashback video of the crucifixion event. 

What is the "wooden" alter in the court before Ezekiel's Temple, if not a prophecy of the wooden Cross?

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8thdaypriest
2 minutes ago, BlessedMan said:

may I ask, please, how you read this verse? Is it talking about "the" as in a literal temple of some kind, or, something that is claimed to be "the" temple?  Just wondering how others might be thinking of this verse.

Off the cuff; it doesnt seem to me that this temple would be very "deceptive" because if its ever rebuilt, I am sure all will know about it. Its also not really needed for "end time events." I am also unclear, going by this thread what "the" Temple has to do with "being under the law."

No Wanderer, I do not believe "the Temple of God" in this prophecy, refers to the Vatican (except perhaps as an alternative, or secondary).  The popes did control the church for 1200 years. 

I believe THE Temple will be rebuilt on the Mount at Jerusalem before the end of this age.    

I know that EGW said that "old Jerusalem will never be built up" but I do not believe in her as an infallible prophet of God.  I think she got that one wrong. 

Under the Law of Sinai, Israel was commanded to build a Tabernacle, and to consecrate the Aaronic priesthood.  That's how we got off into sacrifices.  The command in Deuteronomy said the people were to bring sacrifices only to "the place where the LORD chooses to put His name", to the Aaronic priests.   That "place" was Mount Zion, where Solomon was instructed of God to build Him a House. 

Ron is arguing for a continuation of the blood sacrifices. 

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Ron Amnsn
35 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Ron is arguing for a continuation of the blood sacrifices.

Ron is insisting that God's Word is true.  According to God's instructions to Israel in the Bible, at least some of the sacrifices were intended to continue throughout the generations of the Israelites. (ie. Exodus 29:42)   If at Sinai God already knew that Messiah would die, and already intended that all the sacrifices would end when Messiah died, then God intentionally misled the Israelites.   I don't believe that is the case.

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8thdaypriest

What about some of the other laws?

Should we circumcise all our new babies at 8 days old?

Should every male who wants to celebrate the Passover, be required to be circumcised? 

Should all men in the church be required to wear full beards, and women headcoverings? 

Should "lepers" cry out "UNCLEAN!  UNCLEAN!"  where ever they go?

Should all widows marry their dead husband's brother?

Should any son of such a union inherit his dead father's estate?

Should we stone adulterers, homosexuals, cross dressers, witches, "sorcerers", false prophets and Sabbath breakers?  (Exo 22:18, Leviticus Cpt 20, Lev 20:27).

Should mothers of newborn females stay in quarantine for two weeks, while mothers of newborn males stay for one week?

Should a widow always return to her father's house?   Also a divorced woman?

If a couple who divorced wants to reconcile, should this be forbidden? 

Should women be "unclean" and "set apart" during their monthly menstrual flow?  Should every person who comes in contact with them be called "unclean", also any article of cloth or furniture they touch?  Should a woman be required to give a special offering to the LORD, for her "uncleanness" 7 days after each monthly period. 

Should non-Hebrew slaves be regarded as "property" to be inherited by successive generations of a Hebrew family? 

Should we allow "masters" to beat "servants" almost to the point of death, because they are "property" (Exo 21: 20-21). 

Is slavery condoned by the Old Testament?  (Perhaps just for Hebrews owning non-Hebrews?)

Should we bring back debt-slavery, and require debtors to serve for 6 years, rather than declare bankruptcy?  (Perhaps not a bad idea.)

Should we execute someone for striking his father or mother?  Should we execute a man for cursing his father or his mother?

Should men be allowed to sell their daughters as "maidservants" ?  Should the man who bought a woman as a "maidservant" be allowed to simply "let her go out free and pay nothing" ? (Exodus 21). 

Should we cut off the hand of a woman who grabs the genitals of another man attacking her husband? 

Should we execute a man whose dangerous ox (or dog) breaks out and kills someone?

Shall we execute a man for having sex with a sheep?  (Exo 22:19).

You get my drift . . . . .

OR

Should we look to these laws as prophetic, or as guidelines, and let the LORD do the executing? 

 

 

 

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8thdaypriest
6 minutes ago, Ron Amnsn said:

Ron is insisting that God's Word is true.  According to God's instructions to Israel in the Bible, at least some of the sacrifices were intended to continue throughout the generations of the Israelites. (ie. Exodus 29:42)   If at Sinai God already knew that Messiah would die, and already intended that all the sacrifices would end when Messiah died, then God intentionally misled the Israelites.   I don't believe that is the case.

Israel's sacrifice IS "perpetual".   Israel's Sacrifice is Christ.   We also present ourselves as "sacrifices".  We also offer praise and thanksgiving and works of service as "sacrifices".  When we are baptized, we are presenting ourselves wholly to God, as an Israelite would have presented a "whole burnt offering". 

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Ron Amnsn
22 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

You get my drift . . . . .

I understand that you don't like some of the instructions that Jesus and the Father gave to the Israelites.  Perhaps you think that Christians know better than God does about what constitutes good laws for a righteous nation. 

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8thdaypriest
5 minutes ago, Ron Amnsn said:

I understand that you don't like some of the instructions that Jesus and/or the Father gave to the Israelites.  Perhaps you think that Christians know better than God does about what constitutes good laws for a righteous nation. 

Nope.  Don't think that.  

I believe that Israel was "called" to be a prophecy, and to act out a prophecy of Messiah to come.  

They did not live in isolation.  They lived among other nations, in a Middle Eastern cultural context.  God reaches people where they are.  He did not completely change their cultural laws.  He adapted those laws, within their cultural context, to meet His standards. 

I do not believe the LORD would have us go back to those same cultural laws, many very drastic.  I believe He would have us understand the principles behind those laws, and the prophecies portrayed.  We can incorporate those principles into our own lives.  We can understand how He regards things like disrespect of parents,  unfaithfulness to marriage vows, holding someone permanently in debt, etc. etc. etc.   We can begin to understand the great holiness of God, and our own filthiness because of sin.  

 

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Ron Amnsn
On 10/10/2019 at 12:18 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

I wonder how folks living next to the Temple will like living downwind from a stockyard.  Would smell like the county fair, with a lot of incense.

Could you explain how this aspect of a rebuilt Temple would be significantly different than it was at the second Temple?

When God gave the instructions for the animal sacrifices He said several times that those sacrifices would provide a pleasing aroma. 

Jesus was apparently zealous for the Temple. (John 2:17)  Jesus was often at the Temple.  Is there anywhere in the Bible that it explains that the followers of Jesus would have a different attitude toward the Temple than the attitude that Jesus had toward the Temple?

Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?” (Luke 2:49)

 

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BlessedMan
4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

No Wanderer, I do not believe "the Temple of God" in this prophecy, refers to the Vatican (except perhaps as an alternative, or secondary).  The popes did control the church for 1200 years. 

I believe THE Temple will be rebuilt on the Mount at Jerusalem before the end of this age.    

I know that EGW said that "old Jerusalem will never be built up" but I do not believe in her as an infallible prophet of God.  I think she got that one wrong. 

Under the Law of Sinai, Israel was commanded to build a Tabernacle, and to consecrate the Aaronic priesthood.  That's how we got off into sacrifices.  The command in Deuteronomy said the people were to bring sacrifices only to "the place where the LORD chooses to put His name", to the Aaronic priests.   That "place" was Mount Zion, where Solomon was instructed of God to build Him a House. 

Ron is arguing for a continuation of the blood sacrifices. 

Thanks; I wasnt actually thinking that the temple was a Vatican thing or an EGW thing.  I do disagree with Ron's take here, and was just intending to clarify your's. I am thinking IF it ever was rebuilt, it wouldnt likely be what people say it is. And I doubt that it will be necessary in terms of end time prophecy. "Under the law" here seems to be a very sweeping generalization.

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BlessedMan
4 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

Ron is insisting that God's Word is true.  According to God's instructions to Israel in the Bible, at least some of the sacrifices were intended to continue throughout the generations of the Israelites. (ie. Exodus 29:42)   If at Sinai God already knew that Messiah would die, and already intended that all the sacrifices would end when Messiah died, then God intentionally misled the Israelites.   I don't believe that is the case.

The only kind of "sacrifice" we offer up today would be detailed in Romans 12:1

Quote

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

We are to be a "LIVING" sacrifice....quite different from the Temple sacrifice, also Christ is risen and He is our LIVING sacrifice. Its important to understand it this way. Because, as "Ron is saying God's Word is true," then Romans 12:1 is TRUE

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BlessedMan
3 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

Jesus was apparently zealous for the Temple. (John 2:17)  Jesus was often at the Temple.  Is there anywhere in the Bible that it explains that the followers of Jesus would have a different attitude toward the Temple than the attitude that Jesus had toward the Temple?

Jesus was in that Temple sometimes, other times no. But when He was there; he drove out the "money-changers" selling "sacrifices" which no one has to "buy" today. When Jesus was in that Temple; He always preached, often from Isaiah. There is nothing to suggest another Sacrifice is needed besides that of Jesus now.

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Ron Amnsn
7 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

The only kind of "sacrifice" we offer up today would be detailed in Romans 12:1

We are to be a "LIVING" sacrifice....quite different from the Temple sacrifice, also Christ is risen and He is our LIVING sacrifice. Its important to understand it this way. Because, as "Ron is saying God's Word is true," then Romans 12:1 is TRUE

This is what we've all been taught. However, this is based on assumptions that are not actually taught in Scripture. 

We've become so attached to our assumptions that some people criticize the apostle Paul himself for going up to the Temple to offer animal sacrifices in Acts 21.  On what basis could Paul be condemned -- for following what was written in the Scriptures?  Wouldn't the author of Romans 12 (and the other passages that people misinterpret) understand the intent of his own writings better than someone who is separated from the original context by almost 2000 years? 

The Lord apparently approved of Paul going to the Temple to offer animal sacrifices because the Lord commended him less than 48 hours later for what Paul had done in Jerusalem. “Take courage; for as you have solemnly witnessed to My cause at Jerusalem, so you must witness at Rome also.” (Acts 23:11)

I believe your interpretation of Romans 12:1 would apply to people who are living outside the land of Israel, including the people Paul was writing to in Rome, but would not apply to people living within the land of Israel while there was a functioning Temple and priesthood in Jerusalem.

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Ron Amnsn
7 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

There is nothing to suggest another Sacrifice is needed besides that of Jesus now.

It depends on how you are determining what "is needed", and for what purpose it might be "needed".

Did Jesus "need" to be baptized?  John the baptist was called by God and was arguably the foremost authority on baptism at that time.  When Jesus arrived to be baptized by John, John tried to prevent it. (Matt. 3:14)   Apparently human assumptions about what is "needed" are not reliable.

If we just go by what is recorded in Scripture regarding animal sacrifices, we have several very clear commands from God himself instructing the Levitical priests to offer the animal sacrifices "forever" and "throughout your generations".  That is many magnitudes higher than what you have asserted doesn't exist -- something "to suggest" that animal sacrifices should be offered after the sacrifice of Messiah.  No Bible passage has been presented on this forum that would even begin to convince a Levitical priest to stop obeying God's clear instructions to offer animal sacrifices throughout the time period that God himself specified for animal sacrifices.

If there were a Scriptural case for no longer offering animal sacrifices, that case would be much more convincing if people acknowledged what is plainly written in Scripture regarding the instructions that God gave about animal sacrifices, and if they also acknowledged that near the end of Paul's public ministry, the author of most of the key Bible texts that supposedly teach against the continuation of animal sacrifices went up to the Temple intending to offer animal sacrifices many years after the resurrection of Jesus.  The lack of such acknowledgement might indicate that such people are in denial regarding Scripture rather than wanting to understand the Scriptures.

If there was no "need" for animal sacrifices, why did Paul start a vow in Acts 18 that later required an animal sacrifice at the Temple?

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