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8thdaypriest

Covered by water

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8thdaypriest

I was watching a creation science program yesterday.  If all the mountains were leveled and filled the deep trenches under the oceans, according to geologist/scientists, there is enough water in our oceans presently to cover all land mass completely to a depth of 20 feet.  I thought this very interesting.  In the account of Noah's flood, "all the "high hills" and "the mountains" were covered to a depth of 15 cubits.  That's about 22 feet. 

If there is a massive earthquake (about Richter of 12) that causes all land mass to crumble and sink, and if all land mass is covered by water - worldwide, then the world would return to what it was before Genesis 1:9, during the creation week. 

I had always thought of the desolation during the 7th millennium, like an uninhabited desert - not an uninhabited waterworld. 

Under the second bowl - of the last 7 plagues: 
Revelation 16:3 "The second angel emptied his bowl over the sea, and it turned to blood, like the blood of a corpse, and every living creature in the sea died."  There goes the food-chain, and the rain cycle. 

I know the LORD promised never to send another flood to kill all life.   Some believe the flood of Noah was a localized flood.  But if that's so, then the LORD could not send another localized flood.  But there have been many localized floods, some large enough to cover whole nations (like the one that covered Pakistan), so I don't think the flood of Noah was limited to an area of the Middle East.  That would mean the LORD could not send another like it - another localized flood

Besides, how do you have a localized flood where the waters cover all the highest points to a dept of 20 feet?   Not so "localized". 

If the sea covers all land mass by the end of Revelation 16:18-20, would that be another world "flood"?  

There's no rain except for "great hail from heaven" (v.21).  The "fountains of the great deep" were already opened back in Genesis 7:11.  Some say a giant asteroid hit,  broke open earth's crust allowing volcanic magma to super-heat waters deep in the earth (the initial cooling system).  The super-heated waters were erupted high into the atmosphere, which then descended as "rain" for 40 days.  This plus the escape of the "fountains of the deep", flooded the earth. 

Would collapsing all dry land mass into "the sea" qualify as another "flood" ?

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8thdaypriest

Which brings up the next question.  How do you burn up "the earth" and "cover it with water" - both?  Hmmmm.  Maybe it's burned first, and then the big earthquake crumbles the land mass into the sea. 

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B/W Photodude
10 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I was watching a creation science program yesterday.  If all the mountains were leveled and filled the deep trenches under the oceans, according to geologist/scientists, there is enough water in our oceans presently to cover all land mass completely to a depth of 20 feet.  I thought this very interesting.  In the account of Noah's flood, "all the "high hills" and "the mountains" were covered to a depth of 15 cubits.  That's about 22 feet. 

Problem is, you are watching a program where people try to guess what happened and what conditions were like before the flood. People, even creationists, can get arrogant about what they think happened long age and often will not consider anything that goes against their ideas. 

Before the flood, there was it never rained. So, "watering" the plant life was accomplished in ways we today have no idea how it was accomplished. The Bible just says the "fountains of the deep were broken up."

I find that somethings should just be taken as stated, especially were the Bible states it, and leave it at that!

 

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8thdaypriest
15 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Problem is, you are watching a program where people try to guess what happened and what conditions were like before the flood. People, even creationists, can get arrogant about what they think happened long age and often will not consider anything that goes against their ideas. 

Before the flood, there was it never rained. So, "watering" the plant life was accomplished in ways we today have no idea how it was accomplished. The Bible just says the "fountains of the deep were broken up."

I find that somethings should just be taken as stated, especially were the Bible states it, and leave it at that!

 

Whatever. . . .   You want to "leave it".  Then leave it.

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Kevin H

Whether Noah's flood was universal or localized, it destroyed all the people except for those in the ark. Thus God's promise God does not need to prevent further localized floods but just not one that would kill all the people.

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JoeMo

Around the world, there are over 500 "myths" about a war between God or the gods and people of earth that resulted in a flood that destroyed everything but a few people. These people include Aborigines, American Indians, Polynesians, Chinese, Japanese, Intuit, Greek, Roman, Nordic, Caribbean. Many of these "myths" (including scripture) claim the survivors took animals and seed with them to reset the planet.

I'm not saying the Bible story of the flood is a myth; I'm saying that polytheistic and pantheistic societies around the globe tell basically the same story as the Bible.  I also believe that many "myths" have their origins in fact; so I agree that the flood was worldwide.

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Kevin H

Joemo: We don't know how far flung people were living when the flood happened. I am open to world-wide or local but where ever it was it destroyed everyone who did not get into the ark. The size of the flood was the size of where people were located.

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8thdaypriest
1 hour ago, Kevin H said:

Joemo: We don't know how far flung people were living when the flood happened. I am open to world-wide or local but where ever it was it destroyed everyone who did not get into the ark. The size of the flood was the size of where people were located.

Everything in which is the breath of life would include mammals too.

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8thdaypriest

For some years I've been collecting videos and books on creation science, and on the creation account in the Scriptures.  The best ones I post on prophecyviewpoint.com under the Reading and Resources page.  I watched a good one yesterday.  Lecture by Jonathan Sarfati. 

Title:  "SIX DAYS ... REALLY?  Refuting compromise from the Scriptures."   This one presents some Scripture passages that support a literal six day creation.  He breaks down the Hebrew words, comparing passages.  He sited passages that I had not connected with this argument. 

This one is not presenting the scientific arguments.  It is presenting Scriptural proofs - to show that the Genesis account is supported all the way through to Revelation.  Sarfati made some very good arguments explaining why long age evolution is not compatible with the Scriptures.   And long age creationism is a compromise imposed upon the Scriptures.   His lecture made it very clear that one cannot have it both ways.  One either believes the Bible account, or something else.

I should say that I do not agree with all of Sarfati's other beliefs.  He believes in the forever Hell, and the immortality of the soul, etc. etc.

In grammar school, at SDA academy, and even at SDA college and university,  there really was not much creation science.  One was just supposed to accept the creation account from Scripture.  I'm very glad that many Phd level scientists in recent years have come together to share the science that supports the six day creation account in the Bible. 

I am NOT a scientist.   So I cannot argue the science - though I find it fascinating.    I refer serious students of science to the scientists, like those from Creation Ministries International. 

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JoeMo

This is just a question; not a challenge of the Bible story.

Is it possible that there was more than one ark - say like one for the Middle East (Noah's Ark), one for -say- China, and one for -say - the Americas?  There are so many flood stories from all over the world that contain boats.  Just curious.

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8thdaypriest
18 hours ago, JoeMo said:

This is just a question; not a challenge of the Bible story.

Is it possible that there was more than one ark - say like one for the Middle East (Noah's Ark), one for -say- China, and one for -say - the Americas?  There are so many flood stories from all over the world that contain boats.  Just curious.

Just thinking here: 

1.  There had never been rain on the earth.   No one had ever thought of building a boat to survive a gigantic water disaster.

The scenario you suggest would mean that other men - in other areas "found grace in the sight of the LORD".  The LORD would have had to instruct the other men to build great boats.  

2.  All humanity was concentrated in one large land area, with one language.   There were no widely separated continents before the flood.  The land masses drifted apart during and because of, the Flood.    So there was no separate America, no Australia, no Europe, etc., with different languages.   Not that people groups could not have lived in different parts of the one super-continent land mass. 

3.  Up through the Tower of Babel and confusion of language, the Bible is the history of the human race - all of it - or so it claims to be.

 

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8thdaypriest

Genesis 7:23  "And God blotted out every offspring which was upon the face of the earth, both man and beast, and reptiles, and birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth, and Noe was left alone, and those with him in the ark. (LXA)

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8thdaypriest

2 Peter 2:5  and if he did not spare the ancient world, but did protect Noah, a herald of righteousness, along with seven others, when God brought a flood on an ungodly world, (NET)

The word translated as "herald" is also translated as "preacher".  It is 2783, meaning one who proclaims the Kings messages, or the LORD's messages.  

Sounds as if Noah was at least warning folks about the coming flood. 

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8thdaypriest

Watched another creation science video.

RADIOACTIVE DATING AND A YOUNG EARTH
Lecture by Jim Mason Ph.D.

This one is for physics majors.  Or if you just want to be convinced that a self-respecting scientist with a Ph.D. in experimental Nuclear Physics can also be a young earth creationist.  It’s technical.  He has lots and lots of good color illustrations.  Concludes in four different ways, that radiometric dating is VERY unreliable. 

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8thdaypriest

Essentially those who know that 99.9% of people don’t understand the data their lie is based on, repeat the lie because they know we can’t refute it - at least not without a course in nuclear physics.  So they get away with it.  Folks who trust the “scientists”, believe them when they tell us that the universe is 15 billion years old, that mankind evolved from primordial slime, therefore the Bible cannot be actual history. 

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8thdaypriest

Just finished watching another one.  I'm trying to watch all the DVDs I've saved, so I can get them onto the prophecyviewpoint.com website page, with my recommendations.

DNA BATTLES
Were Adam & Eve Historical?

    Seven scientists and two theologians discuss the theory posited by Francis Collins founder of the Biologos Foundation, that “Adam and Eve, if they existed at all, were part of a collective of some 10,000 hominids.”

Features: Robert Carter, Nic Gibson, Ken Ham, Nathaniel Jeanson, Terry Mortenson, Georgia Purdom, Janathan Sarfati, Frank Sherwin, and Jeffrey Tomkins

I give this one an A+.  This is not just a theoretical problem, of no consequence.  This is a problem of trust in the Scriptures.  This is a problem of belief in Christ.  

    The genealogy of Christ in the Gospels is taken back to one man - Adam.  Can we believe the Gospel writers?  Jesus said, “In the beginning God created them male and female.”  Can we believe what Jesus said?  Paul said, “The first man Adam was made a living being.”  Can we believe Paul?   “As it was by one man that death came, so through one man has come the resurrection of the dead” (1Co. 15:21).  If there was no “one man” who sinned and brought death upon all that breathes, then how can we believe Paul when he says that “one man” has brought the resurrection and salvation?  How?   Without the "one man", there is no need for a "savior" and we can all just "be nice" to one another, and call that enough. 

    I had not considered it before, but Adam would need to have been created with both paternal and mitochondrial DNA, just as if he had both a mother and a father.  Interesting.  The LORD used tissue from Adam to make Eve, so she shared the same DNA, except for the Y chromosome.  If Adam had two identical strands of DNA, and Eve also had the same two identical strands, then all of their offspring would have been identical.  That’s a wild thought.  To get the variation we see among humans today, Adam would need non identical DNA strands, OR there would need to have been multiple DNA ancestors with non-identical DNA.  

    Please order this DVD!  Watch it with your almost adult children.  

 

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JoeMo
43 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Seven scientists and two theologians discuss the theory posited by Francis Collins founder of the Biologos Foundation, that “Adam and Eve, if they existed at all, were part of a collective of some 10,000 hominids.”

I believe Adam and Eve were real people.  I also believe it is possible (not a surety) that Adam and Eve were a special creation separate from the 6th-day creation of humans. One reason is in Genesis 1, the record says:

"So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." (Gen. 1:27).  It is easily possible to infer that God created more than one man and one woman in just one place.

In Genesis 2, it says:

"So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man" (Gen. 2:21-22).

The woman was not created out of mud and breath.  She was made out of one of Adam's ribs. She wasn't even Eve yet - she was just "the woman".  IMHO, the Bible leaves open the possibility that Adam and Ever were a special creation - set aside in an enclosure (the Garden) to flourish outside of the outside world.  Scripture could very well be concentrating on the human lineage of Christ (who came from Noah, who came from Seth, who came from Adam).

Archeologists and anthropologists have identified at least 8 different varieties of hominids.  Only homo sapiens has survived into the modern era. Is it possible that other varieties of hominids were destroyed by the flood?

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JoeMo
3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

if you just want to be convinced that a self-respecting scientist with a Ph.D. in experimental Nuclear Physics can also be a young earth creationist.

One can believe in a young earth without accepting that the universe is just as young.  The Beginning could have been millions or billions of years before Day One.  Genesis is abundantly clear that the earth was made out of existing material:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep" (Gen. 1:1-2)  After this, God started Day One by saying "Let there be light".

Where did the formless earth come from  if it existed before Day One?  If God created everything perfect, why was the earth in chaos before Day 1?  To me, the most obvious answer is that the Beginning described in Gen. 1:1 happened long before Day One.  On Day One, God created an ordered planet capable of supporting life out of a formless chaotic mass of rock that He had actually created long before.  Was the original planet that became the "young earth" previously destroyed in a supernatural battle prior to Day One? Obviously rebellion in heaven occurred before the creation of "young earth" and humanity, or satan would not have been in the garden to cause the fall of humanity.

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debbym
On 9/1/2019 at 10:30 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

I was watching a creation science program yesterday.  If all the mountains were leveled and filled the deep trenches under the oceans, according to geologist/scientists, there is enough water in our oceans presently to cover all land mass completely to a depth of 20 feet.  I thought this very interesting.  In the account of Noah's flood, "all the "high hills" and "the mountains" were covered to a depth of 15 cubits.  That's about 22 feet. 

 

a lot of this waters fell from the heavens.

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8thdaypriest
15 hours ago, debbym said:

a lot of this waters fell from the heavens.

Many creation believing scientists posit that deep water - the original cooling system deep within the earth - was disrupted by volcanic activity.  The heat of the erupting magma and water turned water to steam, and carried it very high into the atmosphere.  As it was cooled in the atmosphere, it then came down as rain - for 40 days and nights.  To this day, there are "vents" of super heated water deep in the oceans along with Pacific Ring-of-Fire.  Before the Flood, it had never rained.  Since the Flood, it has rained plenty.   The activity of natural forces (long held in balance by the LORD) was permanently changed at the time of the Flood. 

Proverbs 8:28 "When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:"

Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened.

One could easily have led to the other.  The bursting of the deep earth fountains, could easily have caused rains for a very extended period.  The deep earth water was brought to the surface.  This has allowed the center molten core to become hotter, without the stable cooling system of deep water.  If the molten core was stable, (not leaking out) we would not have evidence of continuing volcanic activity all around the earth. 

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8thdaypriest
17 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Adam and Eve were a special creation separate from the 6th-day creation of humans.

Paul says "the first man" was Adam.    1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; (1Co 15:45 KJV)

Genesis 3:20 "And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living."

You would have to add to the end of this verse.  "She was the mother of all living" special separately created humans.  

I get uncomfortable when one has to add too much to what is written. 

Romans 5:12 So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned– (NET)

There was no "sin" or death, before Adam sinned. 

If Adam and Eve were a special separate creation of humans, what were all the other humans doing.  Living sinlessly? 

What about the death of animals?   Death entered the world through the sin of the "one man".   So before that sin,  nothing could have died.  That rules out 60 thousand years of animals and fish and birds dying before that "sin".   The fossils show brain tumors and other diseases, and carnivorous eating of animals/fish by others.   These are the rock layers that non-creationist paleontologists date to 60,000 plus, plus, plus years ago - before the appearance of humans. 

I personally believe that Satan claimed dominion over the entire earth because of Adam's sin.  Adam was originally given dominion over the earth.  If Adam put himself under Satan, by knowingly rebelling against the LORD's will, then Adam's dominion would also have come "under" Satan.  Satan could then have wrecked havoc in the animal kingdom. 

Psalm 115:16 “The highest heavens belong to the LORD, but the earth he has given to mankind.” (NIV)

Genesis 1:26-28  “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;  let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.  So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.  Then God blessed them, and God said to them, ‘Be fruitful and multiply;  fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” “dominion” - meaning sovereignty or lordship

    Psalm 8:3-8  “When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars which You have ordained, what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that You visit [care for] him?  For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and You have crowned him with glory and honor.  You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet . . .”   

Satan was allowed to dominate Adam and Eve, and the entire earth, because of their open rebellion against God's expressed will.   God could forgive and protect only those individuals who turned back to Him, and sought to do His revealed will.  Like Noah.  Personally, I think that Noah's sons - the ones who got on the Boat, were protected only because they were with Noah. 

I think it is quite possible that Satan caused the Flood, trying to wipe out this creation and all human kind.  God always takes responsibility for what He allows Satan to do. 

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JoeMo
5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

There was no "sin" or death, before Adam sinned. 

IMHO, there was no sin or death inside the Garden  The whole earth was not "The Garden"; or else there would have been no place for Adam and Eve to go once they got kicked out of the Garden.  There very well could have been sin and death outside the Garden.  Again, IMHO.

Also IMHO, Adam was the first man from our perspective.  Every human alive traces his/her lineage back to Adam and Eve - no further.  Even anthropologists agree that genetic data traces existing humanity back to a single couple.  Any other hominid varieties besides homo sapiens  (if they indeed existed) could have been wiped out by the flood. Again, IMHO.

One thing that puzzles me if the Rh factor in human blood.  Only about 5% - 10% of people are Rh negative.  I read that Rh stands for Rhesus. In other words, it is a genetic factor that 90% - 95% of people have in common with Rhesus monkeys (I am in NO WAY implying that humans evolved from rhesus monkeys).  Rh negative people don't share that genetic factor.  Another interesting fact is that although only 5 - 10% of humanity is Rh negative, around half of the Basque population of northern Spain is Rh negative.  To me that's a little weird.

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8thdaypriest
9 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

IMHO, there was no sin or death inside the Garden 

Bible doesn't say "no death inside the Garden".  It just says "sin entered the world" and death entered the world - through the sin of the one man.     

 Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death (entered the world) through sin"

IMO the Bible does not put "death" before sin - anywhere in "the world", whether in the Garden or outside of the Garden. 

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8thdaypriest

Joe,  you asked me once who Cain was afraid of - when the LORD banished him.  I gave that some thought. 

Adam and Eve were already outside of the Garden.  They had probably already produced several children, by the time Cain murdered Able.  The LORD had commanded they fill the earth - with people.  Cain could have assumed that many descendants of Able might try to kill him.  The LORD did say that death was the penalty for murder.  Gen 9:6  "whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed." 

Later, in the commands to Israel,  "the avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him."  Num 35:19, 21, 27.  It appears "the avenger of blood" had become a strongly rooted law.  That was the reason for the "cities of refuge". 

There were no cities of refuge at the time Cain was made a fugitive and vagabond.  Hence the reason for "the mark" on him. 

Maybe Cain actually cried out to the LORD, or perhaps the LORD was trying to prevent a long blood-feud. 

You asked why Cain built "cities" - for whom?   He could have built what later became cities.   Same thing is seen in a few other places describing later building sites.

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debbym
On 9/8/2019 at 10:53 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

Many creation believing scientists posit that deep water - the original cooling system deep within the earth - was disrupted by volcanic activity.  The heat of the erupting magma and water turned water to steam, and carried it very high into the atmosphere.  As it was cooled in the atmosphere, it then came down as rain - for 40 days and nights.  To this day, there are "vents" of super heated water deep in the oceans along with Pacific Ring-of-Fire.  Before the Flood, it had never rained.  Since the Flood, it has rained plenty.   The activity of natural forces (long held in balance by the LORD) was permanently changed at the time of the Flood. 

Proverbs 8:28 "When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:"

 

the thoughts about the heated water rising gives thought to the idea the earth could have been globally warmed to perfect temperature by geothermal vents making the air warm and humid perfect for growing things on every inch of the earth.  a veritable steamy comfortable jungle.  i love contemplating what pre-flood conditions may have been like,  with 90 percent of the earth covered with hills and valleys loaded with life,  plant and animal and human.

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