Jump to content
Kingdom of Adventistan
B/W Photodude

Objects in the Mirror May Be Closer Than They Appear

Recommended Posts

B/W Photodude

I have posted several links to articles regarding questionable practices occurring in the NAD, EUR, and SPD divisions of the church. These are not for voyeuristic perusal, but to note the decline of spirituality in the church. Morals seems to be in freefall in the in the Western World and probably in the whole world, and in the divisions listed morality would also match the world in freefall.

When Children Dance Sensually in the Church for Jesus
http://adventmessenger.org/when-children-dance-sensually-in-the-church-for-jesus/

Florida Hospital Adventist Church Makes a Mockery of the Bible During their Children’s Program
http://adventmessenger.org/florida-adventist-hospital-church-makes-a-mockery-of-the-bible-during-their-childrens-program/

Here is one worldly example of the decline of religious influence in life.
80 per cent decline in religious funerals as mourners opt for golf courses and zoos over churches  
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/28/80-per-cent-decline-religious-funerals-mourners-opt-golf-courses/
Eight-years-ago 67 per cent of people requested traditional religious services and just 12 per cent were non-religious. However by 2018, just 13 per cent wanted a religious funeral.

So, with this condition existing in the church it has to be much worse than even when Sister Ellen penned the following words more than one hundred years ago:
The facts are before us. The burden bearers among us are dropping off into the silent grave. The active members of the church, the true workers in all reforms, are mostly past the meridian of life, and are declining in physical and mental strength. We should anxiously contemplate who are to rise up and fill their places. To whom are to be committed the vital interests of the church? The question may be asked by us with the deepest concern, Who will bear the responsibilities of the cause of God when a few more standard-bearers fall? We can but look anxiously upon the youth of today as those who must take these burdens, and upon whom responsibilities must fall. They must take the work where others leave it; and their course will determine whether morality, religion, and vital godliness shall prevail, or whether immorality and infidelity shall corrupt and blight all that is valuable. It is the way the standard is carried now that will determine the future. 5T128

Given the vote at the General Conference which showed that in other divisions around the world, the church was largely against the ordination of women. This has infuriated many brighter and more progressive members of the NAD, EUR, and SPD divisions of the church. It has been my opinion that this is even an example of racism in the church where the NAD, EUR, and SPD divisions of the church are just not going to stand for anyone else telling them how to run the church, especially from third world countries.

However, thru much of the rest of the world, church members seem to be living much like the early Adventist church lived. The way I see it, I have to agree that the defenders of our faith are not even from the NAD, EUR, and SPD divisions of the church. Seems like Africa is one place to look for those seriously looking to be ready for the coming of Jesus.

Seventh-day Adventists in Third-world Countries are the New Defenders of the Faith
http://adventmessenger.org/seventh-day-adventists-in-third-world-countries-are-the-new-defenders-of-the-faith/

Seventh-day Adventists in the United States, Canada, Europe and Australia, commonly known as “developed nations” are no longer carrying the torch – it has been passed on to what is commonly referred to as the “third world countries” or “developing nations.”

This growth in the number of Christians has been noted throughout Christendom:
Christianity Booming, Atheism Declining around the World, Report Says
https://www.christianheadlines.com/contributors/michael-foust/christianity-booming-atheism-declining-around-the-world-report-says.html
Much of Christianity’s growth is due to its surge in other continents. Africa (119 million) and Asia (160 million) each have more Christians than North America (100 million).

Lessons We Must Learn from the Church in Africa
http://adventmessenger.org/what-we-must-learn-from-the-church-in-africa/

It truly is a blessing to see these orphan kids reciting the Three Angels’ Message, the 10 Commandments, the 8 Laws of Heath, Biblical passages and singing sacred music all from memory. Pastor Benson and his wife are doing a wonderful job with these children!

Those who live in the last days should be circumspect in words and acts. Sobriety is more in accordance with our faith than levity. Those who realize the solemnity of the times in which we live will be among the number who bear about with them a weight of solemn influence. MS11, 1868

Considering the Sister Ellen statement quoted (5T128), seems the young people who are ready to take up the burdens are from places like Africa. Too bad about the American kids who are being led down the wrong paths.

This is concerning that this situation exists because to me it suggests that the close of probations is rapidly approaching and I believe the vast majority of the church in the NAD, EUR, and SPD divisions of the church are asleep and will wake up too late.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you find some value to this community, please help out with a few dollars per month.

JoeMo

In a recent poll, 26% of people in the US claimed to be agnostic or atheist, compared to 16% in 2010.  Many mainline churches are turning their backs on the Gospel of salvation in preference for the gospel of social justice.  I even heard one denominational leader (not SDA) say that supporting the social gospel is the great commission! Shows how much they know about God's world.

This trend is going to grow throughout the world until organized (denominational) Christianity all but disappears.  At the end of time, we believers will only have each other and God to rely on (probably just the way God wants it).  There will be no more denominations that follow the Gospel - just a worldwide "religion" preaching that all paths lead to God.  Most Christians will fall for it rather than risk persecution and death.

Our Father, please grant us the grace and courage to persevere in our love and trust of you; and living up to Your Family values no matter what the world throws at us!  Keep us under your wing; and protect us from your wrath when the time comes.  We so much look forward to spending a joyous eternity with you in a sinless, loving community.  Thank You, Jesus, for making this possible for us!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kevin H

The gospel is not the good news that the church is going to hell in a handbasket. 

Also, why is it that to be considered a "good Adventist" you need to be followers of pastors who got several sharp letters from Mrs. White and/or Willie White. If they were wrong in Mrs. White's day, what makes them right today?

Some of the things in the mirror may be farther away than they seem as you find similar complaints about both James and Ellen White, Willie, W. W. Prescott, A. G. Daniels among others. This spirit of "pointing out the decline in spirituality" goes back to pointing out the declining spirituality in these people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stinsonmarri
On 10/29/2019 at 12:31 AM, B/W Photodude said:

I have posted several links to articles regarding questionable practices occurring in the NAD, EUR, and SPD divisions of the church. These are not for voyeuristic perusal, but to note the decline of spirituality in the church. Morals seems to be in freefall in the in the Western World and probably in the whole world, and in the divisions listed morality would also match the world in freefall.

When Children Dance Sensually in the Church for Jesus
http://adventmessenger.org/when-children-dance-sensually-in-the-church-for-jesus/

Florida Hospital Adventist Church Makes a Mockery of the Bible During their Children’s Program
http://adventmessenger.org/florida-adventist-hospital-church-makes-a-mockery-of-the-bible-during-their-childrens-program/

Here is one worldly example of the decline of religious influence in life.
80 per cent decline in religious funerals as mourners opt for golf courses and zoos over churches  
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/28/80-per-cent-decline-religious-funerals-mourners-opt-golf-courses/
Eight-years-ago 67 per cent of people requested traditional religious services and just 12 per cent were non-religious. However by 2018, just 13 per cent wanted a religious funeral.

So, with this condition existing in the church it has to be much worse than even when Sister Ellen penned the following words more than one hundred years ago:
The facts are before us. The burden bearers among us are dropping off into the silent grave. The active members of the church, the true workers in all reforms, are mostly past the meridian of life, and are declining in physical and mental strength. We should anxiously contemplate who are to rise up and fill their places. To whom are to be committed the vital interests of the church? The question may be asked by us with the deepest concern, Who will bear the responsibilities of the cause of God when a few more standard-bearers fall? We can but look anxiously upon the youth of today as those who must take these burdens, and upon whom responsibilities must fall. They must take the work where others leave it; and their course will determine whether morality, religion, and vital godliness shall prevail, or whether immorality and infidelity shall corrupt and blight all that is valuable. It is the way the standard is carried now that will determine the future. 5T128

Given the vote at the General Conference which showed that in other divisions around the world, the church was largely against the ordination of women. This has infuriated many brighter and more progressive members of the NAD, EUR, and SPD divisions of the church. It has been my opinion that this is even an example of racism in the church where the NAD, EUR, and SPD divisions of the church are just not going to stand for anyone else telling them how to run the church, especially from third world countries.

However, thru much of the rest of the world, church members seem to be living much like the early Adventist church lived. The way I see it, I have to agree that the defenders of our faith are not even from the NAD, EUR, and SPD divisions of the church. Seems like Africa is one place to look for those seriously looking to be ready for the coming of Jesus.

Seventh-day Adventists in Third-world Countries are the New Defenders of the Faith
http://adventmessenger.org/seventh-day-adventists-in-third-world-countries-are-the-new-defenders-of-the-faith/

Seventh-day Adventists in the United States, Canada, Europe and Australia, commonly known as “developed nations” are no longer carrying the torch – it has been passed on to what is commonly referred to as the “third world countries” or “developing nations.”

This growth in the number of Christians has been noted throughout Christendom:
Christianity Booming, Atheism Declining around the World, Report Says
https://www.christianheadlines.com/contributors/michael-foust/christianity-booming-atheism-declining-around-the-world-report-says.html
Much of Christianity’s growth is due to its surge in other continents. Africa (119 million) and Asia (160 million) each have more Christians than North America (100 million).

Lessons We Must Learn from the Church in Africa
http://adventmessenger.org/what-we-must-learn-from-the-church-in-africa/

It truly is a blessing to see these orphan kids reciting the Three Angels’ Message, the 10 Commandments, the 8 Laws of Heath, Biblical passages and singing sacred music all from memory. Pastor Benson and his wife are doing a wonderful job with these children!

Those who live in the last days should be circumspect in words and acts. Sobriety is more in accordance with our faith than levity. Those who realize the solemnity of the times in which we live will be among the number who bear about with them a weight of solemn influence. MS11, 1868

Considering the Sister Ellen statement quoted (5T128), seems the young people who are ready to take up the burdens are from places like Africa. Too bad about the American kids who are being led down the wrong paths.

This is concerning that this situation exists because to me it suggests that the close of probations is rapidly approaching and I believe the vast majority of the church in the NAD, EUR, and SPD divisions of the church are asleep and will wake up too late.

It is amazing to me with all of the corruption that is going on in the WH and let me be clear! The person had cheated on each of his wives, mess around with playboy bunnies and porography, cusses worst then a sailor, lies, cover up tells on live tv he can kill someone on 5th avenue and people will still follow him. Now if that is not breaking the Commandments please, kindly explain to me how that is not possible?

Then we now are talking about children dancing or giving a lesson  through exercising and health shows Daniel crew outbeat the Babylonians and that's breaking YAHWEH'S Law? Why because you don't like rap or rock music. Please show me in the Bible where it is a sin to listen to rap or rock music. It is not the music it the words! I heard no cussing, no dissing nothing but encouragement. So making a joyful noise is not in the Bible? David did not dance before YAHWEH? The morning stars did not sang and the children of YAHWEH did not clap their hands?

We get chewed out, stamped on and the Republicans are now also crying out there is going to be a civil war because folks choose not to vote (more like worship), the man in the Whitehouse! He has rock music at his rally and their words spue out hate! Remember; "Root also says that Jews “love him like he is the second coming of God.” Now, I ask is this not blasphemy and also against the Commandments!

You know there are songs that are called sacred but the words proves they are not! Here an example of some:

Ave Maria! I have heard many SDA sing this song in the church. This song; "Hail Mary, full of grace, / Mary, full of grace, / Mary, full of grace, / Hail, Hail, the Lord. / The Lord is with thee. / Blessed art thou among women, and blessed, / Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, / Thy womb, Jesus. / Hail Mary! Hail Mary, Mother of God, / Pray for us sinners, / Pray, pray for us; / Pray, pray for us sinners, / Now and at the hour of our death, / The hour of our death / The hour of our death, / The hour of our death / Hail Mary." 

The next is: In the Cross; "In the cross, in the cross, be my glory ever;till my raptured soul shall find rest beyond the river." Blessed assurance; Perfect submission, perfect delight,
Visions of rapture now burst on my sight; Angels descending, bring from above! Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.

It sad that we don't read the Bible to prove all things. The Bible says mourned for a child to be born in this wicked word and rejoice when one dies. We do the opposite! 2 Sam 12:19-23; Job 3:22; Jer 22:10

Finally, it time to call sin by it right name and those who do it! Yet, now EGW is used though she is not here today! She warned us to pray for one another and to see how we are quick to make claims on others that are not Bible base. While we allow and justified those before our eyes to break YAHWEH'S Commandments out in the open. I am tired of it and I will speak out against it! No longer will I keep silent trying to keep the peace! I cannot believe that people will want a civil war. But I am a Biblical historian and history repeats itself! I know it most likely will take place and some, on this forum I pray will stand for justice and truth when the time comes! Here are the Bible on dance:

Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing: thou hast put off my sackcloth and girded me with gladness. To the end that my honour may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O Yahweh my Elohim, I will give thanks unto thee for ever. To the chief Musician. Psa 30:11, 12 

Praise Yah! Sing unto Yahweh a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints. Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: the children of Zion be joyful in their King. Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp. Psa 149:1-3  

A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; Eccl 3:4 

Again, I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry. Jer 31:4 

If you are not a rap or a rock fan that's ok neither am I! But, I love what those children did with Daniel and Babylon also the children with the rap dance! I don't exclude that kind of music; if they are used in a correct manner, but we need to watch out what we listen to, and pray for each other. Time is short and soon YAHSHUA will come, how shall you stand in that great day!

Blessings and Happy Sabbath!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
B/W Photodude
3 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

It is amazing to me with all of the corruption that is going on

Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning!
NOTHING in the original post had ANYTHING to with politics.
But I hope you feel better now!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BlessedMan
8 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Lessons We Must Learn from the Church in Africa

I would say this about any church; there are "lessons" to be learned in almost all of them. if I am in a given church that may be, for example, dancing and prancing, and gyrating the hips, Ill just sit and read my Bible or one of the many spiritual books on my phone.  The caveat being that I have not been in a church like that for years. I guess I am saying I have learned to not get too worked up over things...I will however be the first one to walk out of the sanctuary when someone meets "certain qualifications," and I also have no guilt over that.  The "lesson" I seem to learn in situations like that are simply for my own personal/spiritual growth. Its an amazing sense of grace & power to be able to choose how we will respond. (no, I didnt say I do that all the time).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BlessedMan
On 10/29/2019 at 10:17 AM, JoeMo said:

the Gospel of salvation in preference for the gospel of social justice.

This makes me dizzy with grief. I mean, really, how many different definitions of these are there? Are you saying that the "gospel of salvation" has nothing to do with "social justice?"

Its what Jesus LIVED for!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BlessedMan
On 10/28/2019 at 10:31 PM, B/W Photodude said:

Seventh-day Adventists in Third-world Countries are the New Defenders of the Faith
http://adventmessenger.org/seventh-day-adventists-in-third-world-countries-are-the-new-defenders-of-the-faith/

well, some like to portray themselves as such; but I have a hard time adopting the stance that "only they" have the solution. I know thats not what you are saying here. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BlessedMan
On 10/28/2019 at 10:31 PM, B/W Photodude said:

questionable practices occurring in the NAD, EUR, and SPD divisions of the church. These are not for voyeuristic perusal, but to note the decline of spirituality in the church. Morals seems to be in freefall in the in the Western World and probably in the whole world, and in the divisions listed morality would also match the world in freefall.

I do agree with this, for sure. its everywhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stinsonmarri
5 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning!
NOTHING in the original post had ANYTHING to with politics.
But I hope you feel better now!

Let, me be clear about sin, it is not politics. When you are making this statement:

"These are not for voyeuristic perusal, but to note the decline of spirituality in the church. Morals seems to be in freefall in the in the Western World and probably in the whole world, and in the divisions listed morality would also match the world in freefall." 

All the things I quoted had to do with morals, adultery, idolatry, hate, killing, lying, blasphemy  all are immoral sins that you break when you the Moral Law of YAHWEH! Dancing, rap and rock music is not breaking the Moral Law here in the Western world. What side of the bed I got up on is the right side. Just pointing out the truth!

Blessings!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BlessedMan
3 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

What side of the bed I got up on is the right side. Just pointing out the truth!

Ha ha, I think you may be right here. :)

I would never ascribe some sort of superiority of one church over the next; except to say that Christ and His Church have friends of whom very little is known. We need to make room for them; but we won't because they 'are not one of us."

The Unknown Friends Of Christ And His Church

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BlessedMan
On 11/1/2019 at 9:10 AM, Kevin H said:

This spirit of "pointing out the decline in spirituality" goes back to pointing out the declining spirituality in these people.

a lot of times I would agree with this, but in all fairness, this is not 'the spirit" in which B/W has posted the OP.

Quote

 

Psa 1:5  Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Psa 37:30  The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom, and his tongue talks of judgment.

 

Your post seems to be talking more about the "Hooey Doctrine."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stinsonmarri
37 minutes ago, BlessedMan said:

I would never ascribe some sort of superiority of one church over the next; except to say that Christ and His Church have friends of whom very little is known. We need to make room for them; but we won't because they 'are not one of us."

The Bible said that YAHSHUA has sheep in other folds. Sometime SDA are becoming lie the Pharisees. We need to pray for one another. We all sin and we all need to pray more individually for ourselves. There is a lot of sin and the Bible said THE HOLY SPIRIT is slowly leaving many of us. I just pray that HE will clean me up!

Blessings!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stinsonmarri
On 11/1/2019 at 11:10 AM, Kevin H said:

The gospel is not the good news that the church is going to hell in a handbasket

Kevin: I wish we would stop saying we are going to hell. Hell means grave and we all supposed to know that! Matter of fact the Bible says death and hell will burn up also. So how is anything going to hell? I urge, you, let us say things correctly in order to witness and teach the Good News!

Blessings!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
B/W Photodude
6 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

well, some like to portray themselves as such; but I have a hard time adopting the stance that "only they" have the solution. I know thats not what you are saying here. :)

Actually, they did not portray themselves that way, just came out that way in the title by an American.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BlessedMan
5 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Actually, they did not portray themselves that way, just came out that way in the title by an American.

You mean thats just the way the author of article wrote it? Makes sense. But Id really question, still, that "only they" are "defending" the truth. Just seems like a lot of people hitting the rock. (like Moses).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
B/W Photodude
7 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

You mean thats just the way the author of article wrote it? Makes sense. But Id really question, still, that "only they" are "defending" the truth. Just seems like a lot of people hitting the rock. (like Moses).

I do not really believe the Africans are the only "defenders of the faith" on the earth. However, it seems that the church remains purest when it is under duress such as persecution.

This reminds me of a story I heard one time and I may not get all the details right. But it seems that in a certain communist country with heavy persecution of Christians, soldiers came to church one day. Many of the attendees started slipping out the side doors and disappearing. Eventually it was just the soldiers and a few members who remained in their seats. One of the soldiers was then heard to say, "Now, we can have church!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
B/W Photodude
On 11/2/2019 at 4:06 PM, stinsonmarri said:

It is amazing to me with all of the corruption that is going on in the WH and let me be clear! The person had cheated on each of his wives, mess around with playboy bunnies and porography, cusses worst then a sailor, lies, cover up tells on live tv he can kill someone on 5th avenue and people will still follow him. Now if that is not breaking the Commandments please, kindly explain to me how that is not possible?

20 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

What side of the bed I got up on is the right side. Just pointing out the truth!

You continue to trash a current sitting president based on what is mostly simply based on the lies of haters. And if even true, you cannot know all truth. If you do not know all truth, then you are telling an incomplete truth which is a lie. Consider a thought from the book Thoughts from the Mount of Blessings,  "These words condemn all those meaningless phrases and expletives that border on profanity. They condemn the deceptive compliments, the evasion of truth, the flattering phrases, the exaggerations, the misrepresentations in trade, that are current in society and in the business world. They teach that no one who tries to appear what he is not, or whose words do not convey the real sentiment of his heart, can be called truthful."

Quite frankly, I do not believe you even know what truth is. The hatred you spew toward the president says a lot. NO CURRENT INDIVIDUAL can really know enough about any politician to speak in the way you do towards the president.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BlessedMan
20 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

I do not really believe the Africans are the only "defenders of the faith" on the earth. However, it seems that the church remains purest when it is under duress such as persecution.

From the judgment hall of Caesar, Paul returned to his cell, realizing that he had gained for himself only a brief respite. He knew that his enemies would not rest until they had compassed his death. But he knew also that for a time truth had triumphed. To have proclaimed a crucified and risen Saviour before the vast crowd who had listened to him, was in itself a victory. That day a work had begun which would grow and strengthen, and which Nero and all other enemies of Christ would seek in vain to hinder or destroy.  {AA 498.1}

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BlessedMan
11 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

They condemn the deceptive compliments, the evasion of truth, the flattering phrases, the exaggerations, the misrepresentations in trade, that are current in society and in the business world.

So true, and its not always police & soldiers knocking at the door to persecute. Sometimes, (more commonly here in North America), it is modernity's ecumenical terrorism and their plans being put forth for "the common good."  Their "right Christian," "wrong Christian" stigma and flip-flapping of the lips will soon be more than just talk.

Quote

"Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. " (2 Tim 3:12)

The list of sins after 2 Tim 3:12  are very similar to the description of the ungodly heathen in Romans 1. The remarkable thing is that the very conditions that exist among the heathen in their savagery and uncivilized state will characterize professing believers in the last days. How solemn this is! (taken from Believer's Bible Commentary).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kevin H
18 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Kevin: I wish we would stop saying we are going to hell. Hell means grave and we all supposed to know that! Matter of fact the Bible says death and hell will burn up also. So how is anything going to hell? I urge, you, let us say things correctly in order to witness and teach the Good News!

Blessings!

I think hearing these stories did peek my interest as a child, it made it look like Jesus was really coming soon. But as I went more into my teens, academy and college I learned more about the Bible, Mrs. White, our sinful nature. 

Also, even as a child I noticed a difference between the Adventism of my grandma, and family that was in the church, and the Adventism of one of my aunts by marriage and an uncle by marriage. And at academy occasionally there was an alumni who would give a weekend service. His parents gave large contributions to the school. They had studied with Elder Wilkinson and the mom had been Elder Wilkinson's reader. In his sermons he just kept complaining of what the church was doing and what the school was doing and what we were learning in Bible class etc. 

At college there was someone who would hang around college who kept doing the same thing. But he was a odd person in other ways as well. We did not deal much in this since the Walter Rea issue and Desmond Ford issues were the major issues of the day and where our focus was on. Although we would deal some with what professors pointed out as the other side of the coin and we studied how Mrs. White was frustrated because church members tended to go to one extreme or the other. She would write things to one group and the other group would latch on those letters and instead of seeing how she was writing to the one extreme to encourage them to become more balanced, but the other extreme would take those letters as support for their view and push the message on to the church and Mrs. White had to try with them .  In class both sides were seen as two sides of the same coin, only that they would take their understanding of truth and use it against the rest of the truth, and that the Desmond Ford and Walter Rea issues were again just a resurgence of the one side. 

At campmeeting between college a couple from Union College's religion department Ralph and Beatrice (Now I don't remember the correct spelling of their last name, at the time we had two or three Ralphs who had written books released around the same time with the same last name but each had a different spelling, but either Neil or Neal). They gave an excellent study on how  Seventh-day Adventist truth has been split in half and how half the church is fighting the other half and that both sides were wrong, and the two sides were the Desmond Ford issue and the Historic Adventists on the other, and how the truth tends to be someplace between . 

When I was at Andrews, I was aware of the historic adventists, but church seemed to me (and it probably was) to be very much a bell curve with a few people being at the one extreme of Fordism, and few at the other extreme of historic adventism. And except for my one aunt and uncle by marriage, most who I saw in the historic adventist camp tended to be odd in other ways as well. So I passed them off and would focus on things such as the historical, cultural, copying and geographical background to the Bible and life and ministry of Mrs. White, and also on social interactions and these are what my papers would be on. 

Sometimes if I needed a break from my studies I'd just pick a file at random in the White estate at Andrews and just read through it. They included a lot of Mrs. White's correspondence. In file after file I kept coming upon a bunch of letters between Mrs. White and/or Willie, and others but at first I thought that it was between her and the same man.

These letters kept saying the same things. The basic outline of each letter was Mrs. White or Willie would write telling someone that despite their massive quoting of Mrs. White's quotes, that they did not understand her message and thus they were misrepresenting her. If they wrote back to her they tended to be much more polite, and much more rude if they wrote to Willie (especially after Mrs. White's death).

Their arguments were that they did indeed understand her message, that they were indeed careful students of her writing and that they do understand her message and that the reason why she was sending them sharp testimonies is because people were polluting her mind against them and that if she saw their work objectively and not through her friends who were polluting her mind against them that not only would she would not only have not written the letter to them but that she would fully support them. They would often share with her some of her quotes that sounded like she agreed with them and was critical and worried of the direction that the church had been going since 1888 full of apostasy and warn Mrs. White that these friends and her son were changing her writings to make it sound like she agrees with these apostasy and that her newer writings have been used to spread these apostasies. They would compare Willie to Nadab and Abihu and Samuel's sons*.

Mrs. White and Willie would often write back about how she would write strong to one group but the other group would take these strong writings as a one size fits all that needed to be followed by the whole church, and would mention some about what inspiration did and did not do to her. They would write back that she was a prophet and what she wrote was the perfect, infallible message from God and that she was denying her prophetic ministry and in danger of being lost, but they will continue to faithfully deliver God's message that she wrote. And I noticed that the messages they were sharing was the same as the so-called historic adventists. 

As I said I first thought that they were all one person. The name started with "W" (sometimes they had the name, other times the full name was removed and only the first letter). But after a while I noticed that not all the letters were to an "Elder W" or if the name was there, there were at least two or three names that started with "W" and I'd be surprised because when I expected the letter W or the names of those two or three that started with "W" I would find other letters or names and was surprised that there were a number of pastors who were writing these letters since you probably could have removed the names and find the letters interchangeable. 

Now I did not find this in the correspondence, but in the files I also found copies of filers that were floating around the church in the early 1900s. These were vicious. They said that Mrs. White had apostatized,  and no longer believed that she was a prophet because she believed and was teaching that her writings are not the inerrant infallible message from the almighty God, and that she is saying that some of her writings apply to some people and some to others and not necessary everyone, while God was using her to tell these messages because he did want everyone to live up to these. Some of these fliers suggested that maybe a Jesuit spy had gotten into her inner circle and was controlling her. Some suggested that the Jesuit spy might be any or all of (and the most common names were Willie, Prescott and/or Daniels). One or two even suggested that Mrs. White herself may have been converted to Catholicism and has become a Jesuit spy to destroy the good work that she used to do until she got involved with Jones and Wagner and how after compromising there the result was that she soon there after accepted and started to write and preach teaching the heresy of the trinity. These fliers suggested that members protect themselves by stopping the reading of Mrs. White directly, but to read her as quoted and then named the pastors who she had been writing those letters to. That these pastors were sharing the true message that God gave through Mrs. White and that the members were in danger of being lost if they did not turn to these pastors to share the truth with them. 

After Andrews, I joined the Army as a chaplain assistant. I was stationed at Ft. Lewis Washington. In visiting the churches there, several members would give me a journal "Our Firm Foundation" of which I read many copies of and believe I had a one year subscription to and read each issue. I noticed that this journal sounded like I had read it before, their message was VERY familiar. Sure enough as I read the references for the articles time after time they refer to the pastors who Mrs. White and Willie wrote those letters to and who the flyers warned people that they better turn to to understand true Adventism instead of the heresy that were creeping into the church.

After the Army and then Air Force training, I started to work for Loma Linda Medical center. There I was able to get a book "With Cloak and Dagger" which was a repeat of the same issues as in the letters and flyers and "Our Firm Foundation" but blamed these problems not on the elderly Mrs. White, and her Nadab and Abihu son Willie, and other common targets from the early 1900s, such as Daniels and Pescott. This book pictures their views as being normative Adventism until the 1950s when our Adventist leaders of the 1950s.  Reading "With Cloak and Dagger" had me loose respect for the book because I knew that the same things that book complained about was complained about 50 years before the time that the author saw as the origin of these ideas.

Also, at Loma Linda I got a paper mailed out by the so called "Historic Adventists" all lamenting activities they saw in the church. In one part of the paper, there were two articles side by side. Now neither of these were lamenting anything, but one article was a long one on the importance of the color "red" in the Catholic church. The next article was just a straightforward announcement that Loma Linda University was going to be having activities and community education based on Red Ribbon week.  

I noticed with a number of people, a couple of my classmates, one in my class when I was student teaching, but they would keep doing a flip flop. At one time they would be highly religious, but focus on "Historic Adventism" and their comment after comment in class was constantly complaining about things that the school was doing and what the church was doing. Then they would become non-religious and one classmate would work on his car in front of the boys dorm smoking , or they would drink, go into drugs, live a very un-adventist lifestyle. Then have a religious conversion but again it is the very strict view and constantly pointing out problems that our schools and churches are doing. And they are living their life in these flip flops. When I run across them I never know which of these two sides they are on. 

I should apologize some to B/W photodude as I had seen scenes of the event on facebook, but it was edited in a way that really bothered me, but I thought "There must be more here than this is sounding" . I have to admit when I read and saw B/W's post and link, he did put it into perspective which was not given on facebook. The event made much more sense and was much more acceptable in what B/W posted, and much of my reaction comes from the background I wrote about above and the contrast between how the event in Florida was presented on Facebook and in B/W's post. But even in both posts I keep finding the same spirit that I saw in those letters to Mrs. White or Willie, in those flyers from the early 1900s, the book "With Cloak and Dagger" and these classmates and that student of mine and others that I have known in the church who keep living that flipped flop life.  I think the worst part is seeing these people who live the flipped flop life. I pray for them and worry about them. And I am critical of this spirit. 

* Oh, just a theological note about Samuel's sons: There is Biblical evidence that the complaints of Samuel's sons were more politically motivated than their actual actions. Long before David there was a split between the northern and southern tribes. It looks like there were 7 years that David was King of Judah until becoming King of Israel. And that Saul and David were more kings over the two kingdoms rather than a united kingdom. And Samuel tended to be more popular in the north, his sons appear to have preferred the south, and his grandson worked for the Southern kingdom and temple. So Samuel's sons may not have been as bad as their critics made them sound. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BlessedMan
15 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

much of my reaction comes from the background I wrote about above

that was a really interesting post, thanks for explaining all that.  I recall the days of that Firm Foundation newsletter. Church malcontents would sneak out into the parking lot during church service to put one in everyone's wind shield. Over the years, I have seen many things in EGW writings that appeared to be quite critical of said newsletter; but also of things going on, or not going on in the Church.  The over-all tenor of the person's ministry and life does need to be pointed out. There's a time for silence, and a time for shouting it from the roof tops.

19 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

There is Biblical evidence that the complaints of Samuel's sons were more politically motivated than their actual actions.

I would agree, and I would add that we are seeing this very thing from certain church leaders now. Thats where my "Hooey Doctrine" comment was coming from. Political motivations are being brought forth into the Church as "truth,"  and any dissenters are stigmatized immediately upon their questioning of it.  we should be saying a lot more about that at this time. The lines are being drawn in the sand now; and if we wont get involved in helping the cause of Christ, others will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stinsonmarri
3 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

You continue to trash a current sitting president based on what is mostly simply based on the lies of haters. And if even true, you cannot know all truth. If you do not know all truth, then you are telling an incomplete truth which is a lie. Consider a thought from the book Thoughts from the Mount of Blessings,  "These words condemn all those meaningless phrases and expletives that border on profanity. They condemn the deceptive compliments, the evasion of truth, the flattering phrases, the exaggerations, the misrepresentations in trade, that are current in society and in the business world. They teach that no one who tries to appear what he is not, or whose words do not convey the real sentiment of his heart, can be called truthful."

Quite frankly, I do not believe you even know what truth is. The hatred you spew toward the president says a lot. NO CURRENT INDIVIDUAL can really know enough about any politician to speak in the way you do towards the president.

That's where you are not correct, I stated his immoral action as you did Clinton or Nixon. They both did immoral sins: they lied, Clinton committed adultery and Nixon stole. That is breaking the Moral Law. Now, there is one who is totally corrupt, which has nothing to do with his political views at all. He lies, cusses, cheats on all three of his wives, he hates, and he said he would kill. What is political about that? Nothing! 

Here is the problem I see, it is all right to have a person to do corrupt things because he is a Republican but not so with Clinton because he's a Democrat? That is ridiculous sin is sin! To tell you the truth I like Nixon he did some good things for minorities. But the Bible said be sure your sins will find you out and it did with him, Clinton and the man who says blasphemy things. What we are not to speak out about his sins because he's the president? Well if the Bible can speak out about kings that sinned, surely we can and you all do only if they are Democrats. But woe to us who speak out what the man in the WH is doing wrong that has nothing to do with politics at all.

I am truly tired of it and I going to call sin by its right name! You know I have commented on Clinton here in this forum and I do not take up for anyone, I don't care who it is including me. If you wrong and go against YAHWEH'S Law then I will speak out. Please stop making out that just because you like him politically and look over his immoral acts that I have to tread softly. Not anymore! Please do me a favor show me is his sins different then others? Do he walk around with golden sins and others can be condemn and not him? WRONG! That's the main problem you all let him get away with his sins because of your own political posturing and not me.

It sad you condemn the whole world but not one man who does nothing but corrupt things! Go figure! My party does not come before my faith! I don't agree with everything in any party. But, I accept more of the views of the Democrat, that has nothing to do with the Bible or sin! I come here to stand up for truth even when I fail! So please stop accusing me of politic about this man when out clearly point out his immoral act! Thank You!

Blessings!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stinsonmarri
3 hours ago, Kevin H said:

I think hearing these stories did peek my interest as a child, it made it look like Jesus was really coming soon. But as I went more into my teens, academy and college I learned more about the Bible, Mrs. White, our sinful nature. 

Also, even as a child I noticed a difference between the Adventism of my grandma, and family that was in the church, and the Adventism of one of my aunts by marriage and an uncle by marriage. And at academy occasionally there was an alumni who would give a weekend service. His parents gave large contributions to the school. They had studied with Elder Wilkinson and the mom had been Elder Wilkinson's reader. In his sermons he just kept complaining of what the church was doing and what the school was doing and what we were learning in Bible class etc. 

At college there was someone who would hang around college who kept doing the same thing. But he was a odd person in other ways as well. We did not deal much in this since the Walter Rea issue and Desmond Ford issues were the major issues of the day and where our focus was on. Although we would deal some with what professors pointed out as the other side of the coin and we studied how Mrs. White was frustrated because church members tended to go to one extreme or the other. She would write things to one group and the other group would latch on those letters and instead of seeing how she was writing to the one extreme to encourage them to become more balanced, but the other extreme would take those letters as support for their view and push the message on to the church and Mrs. White had to try with them .  In class both sides were seen as two sides of the same coin, only that they would take their understanding of truth and use it against the rest of the truth, and that the Desmond Ford and Walter Rea issues were again just a resurgence of the one side. 

At campmeeting between college a couple from Union College's religion department Ralph and Beatrice (Now I don't remember the correct spelling of their last name, at the time we had two or three Ralphs who had written books released around the same time with the same last name but each had a different spelling, but either Neil or Neal). They gave an excellent study on how  Seventh-day Adventist truth has been split in half and how half the church is fighting the other half and that both sides were wrong, and the two sides were the Desmond Ford issue and the Historic Adventists on the other, and how the truth tends to be someplace between . 

When I was at Andrews, I was aware of the historic adventists, but church seemed to me (and it probably was) to be very much a bell curve with a few people being at the one extreme of Fordism, and few at the other extreme of historic adventism. And except for my one aunt and uncle by marriage, most who I saw in the historic adventist camp tended to be odd in other ways as well. So I passed them off and would focus on things such as the historical, cultural, copying and geographical background to the Bible and life and ministry of Mrs. White, and also on social interactions and these are what my papers would be on. 

Sometimes if I needed a break from my studies I'd just pick a file at random in the White estate at Andrews and just read through it. They included a lot of Mrs. White's correspondence. In file after file I kept coming upon a bunch of letters between Mrs. White and/or Willie, and others but at first I thought that it was between her and the same man.

These letters kept saying the same things. The basic outline of each letter was Mrs. White or Willie would write telling someone that despite their massive quoting of Mrs. White's quotes, that they did not understand her message and thus they were misrepresenting her. If they wrote back to her they tended to be much more polite, and much more rude if they wrote to Willie (especially after Mrs. White's death).

Their arguments were that they did indeed understand her message, that they were indeed careful students of her writing and that they do understand her message and that the reason why she was sending them sharp testimonies is because people were polluting her mind against them and that if she saw their work objectively and not through her friends who were polluting her mind against them that not only would she would not only have not written the letter to them but that she would fully support them. They would often share with her some of her quotes that sounded like she agreed with them and was critical and worried of the direction that the church had been going since 1888 full of apostasy and warn Mrs. White that these friends and her son were changing her writings to make it sound like she agrees with these apostasy and that her newer writings have been used to spread these apostasies. They would compare Willie to Nadab and Abihu and Samuel's sons*.

Mrs. White and Willie would often write back about how she would write strong to one group but the other group would take these strong writings as a one size fits all that needed to be followed by the whole church, and would mention some about what inspiration did and did not do to her. They would write back that she was a prophet and what she wrote was the perfect, infallible message from God and that she was denying her prophetic ministry and in danger of being lost, but they will continue to faithfully deliver God's message that she wrote. And I noticed that the messages they were sharing was the same as the so-called historic adventists. 

As I said I first thought that they were all one person. The name started with "W" (sometimes they had the name, other times the full name was removed and only the first letter). But after a while I noticed that not all the letters were to an "Elder W" or if the name was there, there were at least two or three names that started with "W" and I'd be surprised because when I expected the letter W or the names of those two or three that started with "W" I would find other letters or names and was surprised that there were a number of pastors who were writing these letters since you probably could have removed the names and find the letters interchangeable. 

Now I did not find this in the correspondence, but in the files I also found copies of filers that were floating around the church in the early 1900s. These were vicious. They said that Mrs. White had apostatized,  and no longer believed that she was a prophet because she believed and was teaching that her writings are not the inerrant infallible message from the almighty God, and that she is saying that some of her writings apply to some people and some to others and not necessary everyone, while God was using her to tell these messages because he did want everyone to live up to these. Some of these fliers suggested that maybe a Jesuit spy had gotten into her inner circle and was controlling her. Some suggested that the Jesuit spy might be any or all of (and the most common names were Willie, Prescott and/or Daniels). One or two even suggested that Mrs. White herself may have been converted to Catholicism and has become a Jesuit spy to destroy the good work that she used to do until she got involved with Jones and Wagner and how after compromising there the result was that she soon there after accepted and started to write and preach teaching the heresy of the trinity. These fliers suggested that members protect themselves by stopping the reading of Mrs. White directly, but to read her as quoted and then named the pastors who she had been writing those letters to. That these pastors were sharing the true message that God gave through Mrs. White and that the members were in danger of being lost if they did not turn to these pastors to share the truth with them. 

After Andrews, I joined the Army as a chaplain assistant. I was stationed at Ft. Lewis Washington. In visiting the churches there, several members would give me a journal "Our Firm Foundation" of which I read many copies of and believe I had a one year subscription to and read each issue. I noticed that this journal sounded like I had read it before, their message was VERY familiar. Sure enough as I read the references for the articles time after time they refer to the pastors who Mrs. White and Willie wrote those letters to and who the flyers warned people that they better turn to to understand true Adventism instead of the heresy that were creeping into the church.

After the Army and then Air Force training, I started to work for Loma Linda Medical center. There I was able to get a book "With Cloak and Dagger" which was a repeat of the same issues as in the letters and flyers and "Our Firm Foundation" but blamed these problems not on the elderly Mrs. White, and her Nadab and Abihu son Willie, and other common targets from the early 1900s, such as Daniels and Pescott. This book pictures their views as being normative Adventism until the 1950s when our Adventist leaders of the 1950s.  Reading "With Cloak and Dagger" had me loose respect for the book because I knew that the same things that book complained about was complained about 50 years before the time that the author saw as the origin of these ideas.

Also, at Loma Linda I got a paper mailed out by the so called "Historic Adventists" all lamenting activities they saw in the church. In one part of the paper, there were two articles side by side. Now neither of these were lamenting anything, but one article was a long one on the importance of the color "red" in the Catholic church. The next article was just a straightforward announcement that Loma Linda University was going to be having activities and community education based on Red Ribbon week.  

I noticed with a number of people, a couple of my classmates, one in my class when I was student teaching, but they would keep doing a flip flop. At one time they would be highly religious, but focus on "Historic Adventism" and their comment after comment in class was constantly complaining about things that the school was doing and what the church was doing. Then they would become non-religious and one classmate would work on his car in front of the boys dorm smoking , or they would drink, go into drugs, live a very un-adventist lifestyle. Then have a religious conversion but again it is the very strict view and constantly pointing out problems that our schools and churches are doing. And they are living their life in these flip flops. When I run across them I never know which of these two sides they are on. 

I should apologize some to B/W photodude as I had seen scenes of the event on facebook, but it was edited in a way that really bothered me, but I thought "There must be more here than this is sounding" . I have to admit when I read and saw B/W's post and link, he did put it into perspective which was not given on facebook. The event made much more sense and was much more acceptable in what B/W posted, and much of my reaction comes from the background I wrote about above and the contrast between how the event in Florida was presented on Facebook and in B/W's post. But even in both posts I keep finding the same spirit that I saw in those letters to Mrs. White or Willie, in those flyers from the early 1900s, the book "With Cloak and Dagger" and these classmates and that student of mine and others that I have known in the church who keep living that flipped flop life.  I think the worst part is seeing these people who live the flipped flop life. I pray for them and worry about them. And I am critical of this spirit. 

* Oh, just a theological note about Samuel's sons: There is Biblical evidence that the complaints of Samuel's sons were more politically motivated than their actual actions. Long before David there was a split between the northern and southern tribes. It looks like there were 7 years that David was King of Judah until becoming King of Israel. And that Saul and David were more kings over the two kingdoms rather than a united kingdom. And Samuel tended to be more popular in the north, his sons appear to have preferred the south, and his grandson worked for the Southern kingdom and temple. So Samuel's sons may not have been as bad as their critics made them sound. 

 

Kevin: Your story was great, but can you please state what it had do with my comment to you on hell?

Blessings!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stinsonmarri
4 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

You continue to trash a current sitting president based on what is mostly simply based on the lies of haters. And if even true, you cannot know all truth. If you do not know all truth, then you are telling an incomplete truth which is a lie. Consider a thought from the book Thoughts from the Mount of Blessings,  "These words condemn all those meaningless phrases and expletives that border on profanity. They condemn the deceptive compliments, the evasion of truth, the flattering phrases, the exaggerations, the misrepresentations in trade, that are current in society and in the business world. They teach that no one who tries to appear what he is not, or whose words do not convey the real sentiment of his heart, can be called truthful."

Would you do me another favor, stop using EGW and taking her words out of context. Let me say this very clear. If politically YAHWEH want him to stay and all the hearings will be mute. I have no control over that and neither do you! I don't come here to talk about him politically you do and you have the problem.  If you would actually look at what she said she was referring exactly to your president. But people like you cannot tell the difference between political and spiritual so I understand. We need prayer!

Take Care!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


If you find some value to this community, please help out with a few dollars per month.



×
×
  • Create New...