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JoeMo

Two Second Comings?

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JoeMo

In looking at scripture, I have been confounded at times about what looked like discrepancies in the details of events surrounding the second coming . Please be patient with me while I list a large number of scripture references:

Group1: Dan. 2:44-45; Dan.7:9-14;Dan 12:1-3; Zech.14:1-5,Matt. 13:41; Matt. 24:15-31;,Matt. 26:64; Mark13:14-27;Mark 14:62; Luke 21:25-28; Act1:9-11; Acts 3:19-21; 1Thess. 3:13; 2Thess.1:6-10; 2Thess.2:8; 2 Peter 3:1-14; Jude 14-15; Rev. 1:7; Rev. 19:11-20:6; Rev. 22:7, 12, and 20

Group2: John 14:1-3; 1 Cor.15:1-53; 1Thess. 4:13-18; Rom.8:19; 1Cor.1:7-8; 1Cor.16:66; Phil.3:20-21; Col.3:4; 1Thess. 1:10; 1Thess.2:19; 1Thess.5:9 and 23; 2Thess. 2:1 and 3;1Tim.3:16; 2Tim4:1; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 9:28;James 5:7-9; 1Pet.1:7 and 13; 1John 2:28-3:2; Jude 21; Rev. 2:25; Rev.3:10.

(whew!)

In GroupA, it appears that all people on the earth are affected. In Group B, it appears that only believers are affected.

Group A is preceded by a definite and definitive series of precedent events.  Group B appeared "imminent"; we are instructed to be ready at all times.

Group A contains no references to the resurrection or translation of believers.  Group B specifically addresses the resurrection of believers.

In Group B, He seems to come with all His saints. In Group A He seems to be coming for His saints.

In group A, the earth is judged.  In Group B, it is not.

Group A seems to conclude with the "Day of Wrath". Group B seems to occur prior to the "Day of Wrath".

In Group B, He comes in the air.  In Group A, He comes to the earth.

In Group B, the Great Tribulation/ Seven Bowls of God's Wrath follows.  In Group A, the Tribulation/ Wrath of God is ended followed immediately by the Millennium.

There are 2 ways for me to rectify this:

1. There are two Messiahs - a ridiculous conclusion.

2. There are two Second Comings - one when Jesus takes the saints - living and dead off of the earth to protect them from God's wrath which will fall on the wicked; and one where Jesus returns to the earth with His glorified saints to establish His Millennial Kingdom.

Is this a reasonable conclusion?  What do you think?

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JoeMo

The above is not my original thought.  It is a brief summary from a chapter in the book "The Kingdom, Power and Glory" by Chuck and Nancy Missler.  Someone recently posted a question about this very subject.

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TrevorL

Greetings JoeMo,

 

20 hours ago, JoeMo said:

2. There are two Second Comings - one when Jesus takes the saints - living and dead off of the earth to protect them from God's wrath which will fall on the wicked; and one where Jesus returns to the earth with His glorified saints to establish His Millennial Kingdom.

I suggest there is only one Second Coming, commencing with his gathering of the believers, their judgement and then the judgement of the nations, their subjection and conversion, and the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years.

1 Peter 4:17 (KJV): For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 

Without discussing each verse that you listed, I believe that the believers may be gathered and judged upon the earth, and one verse that seems to endorse this is the following:

Isaiah 26:20-21 (KJV): 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.  

 

Kind regards

Trevor

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JoeMo
On 11/17/2019 at 1:10 PM, TrevorL said:

1 Peter 4:17 (KJV): For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

I am currently of the opinion that this verse kind of supports my theory.  Not everyone who is justified (given the free gift of eternal life and salvation) Will have completed the sanctification process (dying to self and presenting the image of Christ) while on earth.  I believe that many will "enter" the Kingdom of Heaven as subjects; ( the vast multitude?), but few (the 144,000?) will actually inherit the kingdom as priests and kings co-reigning with Christ (the reward for striving to win the race that Paul talks about).

Those who have not "completed" the sanctification process by conforming to Christ's image here on earth will have to complete it is the "outer darkness" of the Millennial Kingdom, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in abject remorse for uncompleted assignments given to us here on earth. THhs is the judgement of those within the house of God. I compare this "outer darkness" in the Kingdom to those confined to the outer courtyard of the Temple until they completed their "conversion".  The judgement of those who do not obey the Gospel (i.e., do not believe) will be eternal death - much worse than remedial training.

Just my current thought, which I reserve the right to change or abandon at any moment! 😉

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JoeMo

I also believe there will be a short period of time between when Jesus comes FOR His saints  and when Jesus comes WITH His saints.  This time could be one week - the typical time taken for a Jewish wedding celebration.  This is the week in which Christ will marry His bride before returning to earth with her to destroy the works of the evil one with the seven bowls of God's wrath.

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JoeMo

B/W (if you are reading this),

In a way the "sanctification process" which I am describing above is a twist on LGT, except it does not demand perfection; it requires a submissive and obedient attitude; even if we do occasionally fall.

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phkrause
2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I also believe there will be a short period of time between when Jesus comes FOR His saints  and when Jesus comes WITH His saints.  This time could be one week

Yes he comes at the 2nd coming and takes the saints that are in there graves and those that are alive and brings all to heaven and than 1000 years later raises the dead (lost) and them and Satan & his angels are all placed in the lake of fire!

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B/W Photodude
6 hours ago, JoeMo said:

In a way the "sanctification process" which I am describing above is a twist on LGT, except it does not demand perfection; it requires a submissive and obedient attitude; even if we do occasionally fall.

I still believe in no sin in God's people after the close of probation. God, in His word, has promised it and to me to deny it is to be in unbelief. Jesus said to be perfect like your Father in heaven. I do not believe He would waste words in telling us to do something we are not able to do. Perfection is not a demand, it is a promise! Trust God to deliver.

So, the question is, what is that perfection and how does it work? I see the people of God living a life such as Jesus lived when He walked on the earth. He had the temptations of the flesh, but did not have a natural disposition to sin. I believe that when God declares the righteous to be righteous still that there will be brought about a change in them so that there is no longer a disposition to sin. This is part of the work of the Holy Spirit in the latter rain and also the beginning of "glorification." Notice Paul said that when Jesus comes, we will see Him as he is because we will be like Him. We will have the mind of Christ. Paul talks about waiting for Christ to be formed within His people. When Christ is fully formed within His people, they will no longer sin.

One pastor thought of it like this, God will finally have a people who look like Jesus. Not just that person here and there who perfectly reflects Jesus but a large number of people. Those people will be the 144,000 who will be able to sing the Song of Moses and the Lamb.

So, think on how people will be righteous still if they are able to continue sinning. I do not believe they will. 

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Aliensanctuary

(Side note*   "Heaven" is actually the New Jerusalem, the home of God's people after the Earth is destroyed and rendered uninhabitable.)

There seems to be a couple of different scenarios concerning the return of the Son of Man, referenced above.

1. People will be eating, drinking, and marrying when the Son of Man comes suddenly and unexpectedly for the unprepared. 

2. Only after persecution and false messiahs, the sun and moon are darkened, the stars fall from the sky, and there is a great earthquake that causes the islands and mountains to disappear. After that, the sign of the Son of Man appears in the sky and all the people of Earth will mourn.

At some point the Son of Man stands on the Mt. of Olives which causes a great plain to form in Israel from sea to sea. This may be for Judgment Day, where the books are opened and examined to determine who can enter the Kingdom and who is doomed.

Of course, the Day of the LORD could arrive while most people are oblivious concerning what is about to take place. While some are eating and drinking and so on, persecution and false messiahs are also occurring.

 

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Aliensanctuary

If there is a 1000-year kingdom on Earth, the Restored Kingdom of Israel, there will be a Temple and the River of Life coming from the throne of YHVH. Only those who are washed up in the River of Life will be incapable of transgressing the Laws of the Kingdom, and in the Living Water the Spirit will remove our sense of Self and delete our memories of Earth life.

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JoeMo
11 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

I believe that when God declares the righteous to be righteous still that there will be brought about a change in them so that there is no longer a disposition to sin.

I believe this happens when we are changed from mortal to immortal; from corruptible to incorruptible when Jesus comes FOR His saints.  Until then, I believe we will be predisposed to sin.  Of course, being predisposed to sin doesn't mean we "have to" sin. Under the influence of the latter rain, sin becomes a choice rather than an inevitability. After we receive the Holy Spirit, we are no longer slaves to sin.

Even if we do become sinless, I don't know if we will realize we are sinless.  When I meditate on the righteousness of God and His Son, it is only by faith that I can believe that He would love something like me. (Of course, I'm still far from sinless. 😔

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8thdaypriest

Joe, you made a good collection of the texts about judgments.  Thanks.

The responses show that opinions/interpretations differ widely.   And my scenario wasn't even there. lol

Let me see if I understand your scenario.

1.  Believers "judged" - in the person of Christ, perhaps hours before His return to remove them from earth. 

2.  Fully committed/sanctified believers removed to the New Jerusalem, for "the wedding".  (includes resurrected and living)

3.  Less fully committed/sanctified believers left on the earth? 

4.  Wicked (knowingly rejected the LORD or His will) resurrected, face Christ, judged, destroyed directly/indirectly as last plagues poured out.   This leaves only those not fully committed/sanctified.  They survive the last plagues (?miraculously?)

5.  Time passes (unspecified short length of time)

6.  Christ returns to earth with His bride, now made "kings and priests".

7.  Those believers not fully committed/sanctified (some resurrected/some still living at SC) spend 1000 years (7th millennium) learning and maturing.   I would assume some continue on to "maturity", and others slip back into rebellion, just in time for the resurrection at the 8th millennium.

8.  At 8th millennium, "the rest of the dead" are resurrected.  (These are people who were not able to choose during their lifetimes, due to ignorance, immaturity, disability.)  They will be governed and educated by "the priests and kings" of God.

They will also be tempted/deceived by Satan and his angels and by those who slipped back into rebellion during the 7th millennium. 

9.  Those of "the rest" who do not choose to serve Christ, along with those who slipped back during the 7th millennium, now rebel against Him, coming up as the Gog/Magog army. 

10.  They are destroyed by "fire of God". 

QUESTIONS:

Do I understand your scenario about right?

In your scenario, at what point is the earth healed/restored?  Because the 7 last plagues pretty much wipe out the whole planet as we know it today. 

Or do you still believe the last bowl plagues only effect the land area promised to the Seed of Abraham?

In your scenario, does the LORD especially preserve those not fully committed/sanctified through the last plagues?  Is that why there are survivors? 

 

 

 

 

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8thdaypriest

Just couple days ago, I was looking again at my notes on the 144,000.  Wow!  The symbolism in those verses is taken from many different OT verses, and mostly from Sanctuary/Feast imagery. 

What has me stumped is the description of the 144,000 as "firstfruits".   The "firstfruits" were not always "the best" of the harvest.  They were just "first".   So whom does Christ present FIRST to His Father?   That would be the saints He resurrected just shortly after His own resurrection.  Wouldn't they be "the firstfruits" ? 

Does the Bible present all of "the saved" as one "harvest" - or - is there more than one "harvest" ?  The Feasts present three - Spring (barley), Summer (wheat), Fall (fruits).  They fit well with 1. Christ's ascension, 2.  the Second Coming and 3.  the 8th millennium harvest

Jesus said, "the harvest is the end of the age".   Is "the age" just 6000 years, or is there another "age" after that? 

At the Glorious Return,  the resurrected go "first" - right?   So they would be the "firstfruits" (first harvested)? 

But Jesus is called "the firstfruits of them that slept".   That lumps all those who have died into one harvest. 

It's just impossible to pin it down.  Though it is interesting to study and speculate. 

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stinsonmarri
20 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

I still believe in no sin in God's people after the close of probation. God, in His word, has promised it and to me to deny it is to be in unbelief. Jesus said to be perfect like your Father in heaven. I do not believe He would waste words in telling us to do something we are not able to do. Perfection is not a demand, it is a promise! Trust God to deliver.

So, the question is, what is that perfection and how does it work? I see the people of God living a life such as Jesus lived when He walked on the earth. He had the temptations of the flesh, but did not have a natural disposition to sin. I believe that when God declares the righteous to be righteous still that there will be brought about a change in them so that there is no longer a disposition to sin. This is part of the work of the Holy Spirit in the latter rain and also the beginning of "glorification." Notice Paul said that when Jesus comes, we will see Him as he is because we will be like Him. We will have the mind of Christ. Paul talks about waiting for Christ to be formed within His people. When Christ is fully formed within His people, they will no longer sin.

One pastor thought of it like this, God will finally have a people who look like Jesus. Not just that person here and there who perfectly reflects Jesus but a large number of people. Those people will be the 144,000 who will be able to sing the Song of Moses and the Lamb.

So, think on how people will be righteous still if they are able to continue sinning. I do not believe they will. 

I agree and the Bible makes it clear that THE HOLY SPIRIT will be doing the sealing of the 144,000 the remnant. The scene in Revelation start to shows the Time of Trouble, but in Chapter 7 an angel from the east swiftly flies and tells the four angels to not let the events begin until the remnant are seal first. So they are seal before the Time of Trouble. Dan 12:3; Matt 25:9; Eph 1:13; Rev 6:14-17; 7:1-3; 12:7; 14:4, 14, 15 (This Verse proves that YAHSHUA has not returned. All of HIS angels will return with HIM! This whole Chapter deals with the 144,000 receiving their reward for the work they've done.) These remnant during the Time of Trouble, having THE SPIRIT of Elijah; when he did YAHWEH'S warning of Wrath on IsraEL. The remnant will have power from on HIGH to do exactly the same thing and more. It is the Wrath of THE LAMB! Rev 6:16; 11:5, 6

THE WRATH of YAHWEH is the 7 last plagues and then during the sixth plagues YAHSHUA is coming by the 7th, the earth is in turmoil and YAHSHUA has come. Rev 11:13-15; 16:15, 17-21. Then for a thousand years the saints will be in the city to judge the wicked. 1Co 6:2; Rev 20:4

Finally, the 2nd time the saints will come back with YAHSHUA to execute judgment on the wicked after the thousands years! Jude 1:14;  Rev 20:3, 5-7

When the 144,000 are sealed they would have stopped sinning to be sealed by THE HOLY SPIRIT! Their work is to reap the harvest of souls that will come out of the Time of Trouble. Dan 12:3; Rev 7:9-15; 9:4 They will do the final work that THE HOLY SPIRIT had Elijah to do!

Praise FATHER, THE SON and THE HOLY SPIRIT FOREVER MORE!

Blessings!

 

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stinsonmarri
16 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

What has me stumped is the description of the 144,000 as "firstfruits".   The "firstfruits" were not always "the best" of the harvest.  They were just "first".   So whom does Christ present FIRST to His Father?   That would be the saints He resurrected just shortly after His own resurrection.  Wouldn't they be "the firstfruits" ? 

Rachel: The firstfruit is the best of the harvest. The reason why I know because my mother was a an old farmer. She goes by the original calendar lunar/solar find in Gen 1:14. The old farmer use to use a pamphlet called the Farmer's Almanac! You see YAHWEH uses the moon which where the meaning month comes from. After the flood is when seasons actually begin. Gen 8:22

The first fruit was very important, which included the first born who would become the High priest of the family. It all pointed to YAHSHUA and it represented the best! Deut 18:4; Rom 11:16

Finally, THE MESSIAH is the FIRSTFRUIT of those who are asleep and will rise again! 1Co15:20 My point all throughout the Bible is speaks clearly about the firstfruit. The best of the best.

Blessings!

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B/W Photodude

You need to be careful how you use words from the Bible. So many words gets used over and over in many different ways.

1 Corinthians 15:20

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:23

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

It may not be any of God's people, it may be Jesus Himself who is the firstfruits of theresurrection.

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stinsonmarri
45 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

You need to be careful how you use words from the Bible. So many words gets used over and over in many different ways.

1 Corinthians 15:20

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:23

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

It may not be any of God's people, it may be Jesus Himself who is the firstfruits of theresurrection.

I am confuse because YAHSHUA is THE MESSIAH and HE IS THE FIRSTFRUIT of the dead. 1 Corinthians 15:20 The remnant is the firstfruits of the living! 1 Corinthians 15:23 I hope you can see two firstfruits the dead and the living. If you are referring to me.

Blessings

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stinsonmarri
1 hour ago, B/W Photodude said:

I have been looking for that word!

Sealing is a form of the verb sealed which is the past tense.

  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that HOLY SPIRIT of promise, Eph 1:13

Blessings

 

 

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stinsonmarri
On 11/18/2019 at 5:16 PM, JoeMo said:

I also believe there will be a short period of time between when Jesus comes FOR His saints  and when Jesus comes WITH His saints.  This time could be one week - the typical time taken for a Jewish wedding celebration.  This is the week in which Christ will marry His bride before returning to earth with her to destroy the works of the evil one with the seven bowls of God's wrath.

The Bible says a thousand years is like a day to YAHWEH. Keep in mind the saints will also be immortal and it will be the same way to them as well!

Blessings!

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stinsonmarri
On 11/16/2019 at 8:30 PM, JoeMo said:

The above is not my original thought.  It is a brief summary from a chapter in the book "The Kingdom, Power and Glory" by Chuck and Nancy Missler.  Someone recently posted a question about this very subject.

Sometimes, Joe, books can lead you further away from the truth in the Bible. People want to interpret the Bible the way they want. The Bible is easy to read base on subjects with understanding and THE HOLY SPIRIT! The Pharisee felt they had to explain YAHWEH'S Laws and created so many unnecessary laws that you could not walk seven miles on the Sabbath, according to them. The Bible can speak for itself we need to learn meaning of words in their original language, grammar, syntax, etc.

Blessings!

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JoeMo
On 11/19/2019 at 1:11 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Let me see if I understand your scenario.

You have substantially understood my scenario, with a few exceptions that we have frequently discussed before.  Here's my hypothetical chronology of events:

1.All those who have expressed a genuine faith in Jesus are translated to heaven to be protected by Jesus during the Bowls of God's wrath. All of these receive eternal life.  This is the free gift expressed in John 3:16 and Ephesians 2. This is Jesus coming FOR His saints.

2. During this time (after the "rapture" and before the "7 Bowls") All those translated will have to endure the Bema seat judgement, where those who satisfactorily completed their "training" during their earthly lives (Sanctification) will receive their reward according to their deeds. This reward would be a crown and the authority/responsibility to co-rule with Christ. Those who did not satisfactorily complete their earthly training will be mere "subjects" of the Kingdom rather than heirs until they complete their "Training" in the Millennium". I don't want to speculate on what happens to those who may not complete their sanctification process during the Millennium.

"According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."(1 Cor. 3:10-15)

3. The Bowls of God's wrath fall upon the earth.  It is during or immediately after the 7th Bowl that Jesus returns to earth WITH His Saints to reclaim the planet as His own and set up His Millennial Kingdom on earth. At this time, ALMOST all the living wicked are destroyed; and maybe the wicked in the grave - not sure about this. It is here that those who inherit the Kingdom will co-reign with Christ over the remnant of the nations that survive the Bowls of God's wrath. During this time, Ezekiel's Temple will be built as the Throne of Christ here on earth, and the remnants of the nations will come to worship Him.  Those who do not worship Him will be disciplined.

4. Those who merely "enter" the Kingdom are restricted from co-ruling with Christ or entering the sanctuary until they complete their sanctification.

5. At the end of the Millennium, the "rest of the dead" will be resurrected and given a finite amount to time to choose between Jesus and satan.  This may or may not include the wicked dead - not sure about this.  This will culminate in the final Gog/Magog war when all those who refused to accept Christ will be thrown into the lake of fire along with satan, death and the grave.

6. After this, the existing heavens and earth are destroyed; and God creates a new heaven and earth; and the New Jerusalem which descends from the sky  will become the center of the universe.  I don't know of the "new heavens" implies the recreation of the whole universe or just the "heavens" close to earth (the solar system?)

I understand that there are holes in my scenario above; and that much of it is just studied speculation.  I also understand that there are probably many other valid scenarios.  I'm just kind of a prophecy freak and I like to discuss this kind of stuff.

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JoeMo
20 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Sometimes, Joe, books can lead you further away from the truth in the Bible.

Yes; and sometimes books can give you better clarity on the Bible.  Many here would say that EGW's books to just that.  There are other inspired writers who do the same thing.

"To the teaching and to the testimony! If they will not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn." (Isaiah 8:20)

All extra-biblical writing must be checked to ensure compliance with the above.

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stinsonmarri
24 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Yes; and sometimes books can give you better clarity on the Bible.  Many here would say that EGW's books to just that.  There are other inspired writers who do the same thing.

"To the teaching and to the testimony! If they will not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn." (Isaiah 8:20)

All extra-biblical writing must be checked to ensure compliance with the above.

I you know that I do not accept EGW books like most, Joe! You of all people know that! I have said over and over that her visions, is what I do believe. Why? Because they are already in the Bible, period. You can go back over my comments and you will never comment a lot about EGW except her visions. Again, I will say reading a lot of various books to explain the Bible is not necessary. If you choose to do so, that is your choice, I presented to you the reason why! That is my choice and we don't agree and I can accept that. I present base on my experiences and understanding. Then the Bible says to share what you have learned. I do and then the rest is up to the individual and THE HOLY SPIRIT! There is no argument with me.

Blessings! 

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8thdaypriest

Thanks Joe, for filling in more detail of the scenario. 

You didn't say where you think the LORD will put Satan and his angels, during the 7th millennium. 

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