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JoeMo

Two Second Comings?

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JoeMo
5 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

IMO it makes no sense to collate two sets of verses like this, and subvert them to two separate ideologies. Where is the scripture telling us to even do that.

Where in scripture does it tell us NOT to do it?

 

5 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

there is only ONE doctrine of the second coming, not two.

I never said there were two doctrines.  I merely posted the results of a study I did for comment because I thought it was interesting; not because I wanted to get in a heated debate with you.  Chill!

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BlessedMan
2 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Where in scripture does it tell us NOT to do it?

 

I never said there were two doctrines.  I merely posted the results of a study I did for comment because I thought it was interesting; not because I wanted to get in a heated debate with you.  Chill!

Whats with the "chill" drama? I was only asking questions. I don't see any "heated debate" going on.  I would actually like to know where the Bible tells us that those two sets of verses "seem" to tell us about two "different" resurrections, one apparently "just for believers," and the other apparently for "everyone:"

Quote

In GroupA, it appears that all people on the earth are affected. In Group B, it appears that only believers are affected.

- your words, NOT mine

If you are unable or unwilling to show me where scripture says that, then NP at all, as I was just asking where you were coming from. Its your choice to reply in whatever fashion you wish; but there's no need to make it personal, and tell someone just asking for more information to "chill." There's no need for that at all; especially since I only asked once, and did not pester in any way.

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stinsonmarri
18 minutes ago, BlessedMan said:

the text is pretty clear, insofar as WHO is doing what:

If the Bible says it, then we cannot argue about it. And, I dont know of any text that says  Satan changed himself to get into heaven. Which verse says that in Job?

Of course, there is no Messiah, insofar as the "angel of light," but thats the whole point. The reason there is no such thing as a counterfeit three dollar bill, is because there is no such thing as a real three dollar bill. It can only be a counterfeit, if there is the genuine! The text is clear, Satan impersonates Christ, and many people are fooled by this counterfeit. But Satan does present as the counterfeit. The manner of the 2nd coming tells us that there is a way to know the genuine, and in fact, that's why the counterfeit is needed, in Bible prophecy.

Here is what the Bible said:

 Now there was a day when the sons of ELOHIYM came to present themselves before YAHWEH, and Satan came also among them. Job 1:6

Now, I am going to ask you a very simple question. Do you actually think he came as himself around beings who never sinned? Notice the word among them! I felt he transformed himself. That he can do being a mighty being, but not THE CREATOR, who knows who he was. HE knows because HE CREATED all things!

Blessings!

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stinsonmarri
26 minutes ago, BlessedMan said:

the text is pretty clear, insofar as WHO is doing what:

If the Bible says it, then we cannot argue about it. And, I dont know of any text that says  Satan changed himself to get into heaven. Which verse says that in Job?

Of course, there is no Messiah, insofar as the "angel of light," but thats the whole point. The reason there is no such thing as a counterfeit three dollar bill, is because there is no such thing as a real three dollar bill. It can only be a counterfeit, if there is the genuine! The text is clear, Satan impersonates Christ, and many people are fooled by this counterfeit. But Satan does present as the counterfeit. The manner of the 2nd coming tells us that there is a way to know the genuine, and in fact, that's why the counterfeit is needed, in Bible prophecy.

That Text did not say THE MESSIAH, it said an angel. So what you are saying is incorrect. You cannot make the Text say what it did not say. YAHSHUA is THE ARCHANGEL and it did not say that either. Created beings cannot impersonated THE CREATORS it is impossible. Your thoughts, mind is not THE WAYS of THE ALMIGHTIES! That is all I can say, the choice is yours. I will stand on exactly what the Bible says!

Blessings!

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JoeMo
5 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

If you are unable or unwilling to show me where scripture says that, then NP at all, as I was just asking where you were coming from.

There is nothing in scripture that explicitly talks about two second comings; just like there is no explicit scripture describing a trinity.  Read the scriptures in the two groups. I'm not going to quote each one separately The scriptures in Group 1 (or Group A)describe a specific set of precedent events leading up to the Second Coming - unprecedented wars, famines economic chaos, Mark of the Beast, demons roaming the planet, unexplainable cosmic disturbances, climaxing with Jesus landing ON planet earth, creating a great plain where He lands.  When these precedent events occur, who can doubt that the Second Coming is here? The scriptures in Group B present a more subtle, sudden appearance that is totally unexpected except by those who are ready and waiting, when He comes in the air (not to the earth) to collect the elect - both living and dead.

If you want to argue the point, argue with scripture, just like you require of me instead of just denigrating a topic that you may disagree with. Show me where my opinion fails instead of just implying that it's wrong. If you can find it, show me some scriptures that "unify" a sudden unexpected return as described in Matt 24: 36-51 and 1 Thes 4:17 and coming with one that has all of the planet-wide precedents described in Matt. 24:4-32 and Rev. 6-9.

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8thdaypriest
On 11/29/2019 at 6:13 PM, stinsonmarri said:

Let's start with Chapter 8,  Aaron and his two older sons had to be concentrated for seven days.

And ye shall not go out of the door of the Tabernacle of the congregation in seven days, until the days of your consecration be at an end: for seven days shall he consecrate you. Lev 8:33

These are the names of the sons of Aaron, the priests which were anointed, whom he consecrated to minister in the priest's office. Num 3:3  

So, before they could do any work for the people they had to have an offering done for them first, and had to be consecrated to do the priestly work, they were ordained to do. The very next day, was the eighth day for them to start their priestly work for the congregation. They did and it was complete!

And there came a fire out from before YAHWEH, and consumed upon the altar the burnt offering and the fat: which when all the people saw, they shouted, and fell on their faces. Lev 9:24

When Aaron's two older sons did what they did was not on the above eighth day. It just showed that they were now doing their daily services. It appears also that they had been drinking strong drinks as well because YAHWEH emphasized again about this being unholy. Aaron was instructed to continue to teach the Statutes to the Children of IsraEL that was given to Moses. 

Leviticus Chapter Eight

Moses calls all "the congregation" to gather "at the door of the tabernacle of meeting" (1:3)

Verses 6-13  Moses dresses Aaron and his sons in priestly garb, and then anoints them with sacred oil.  He also anoints "the tabernacle and all that was in it".  (v.10)

Moses then sacrifices "the bull for the sin offering" for Aaron and his sons, after Aaron and his sons place their hands on the head of the animal (v.14-17)  Moses is acting as priest during this ceremony.  Moses burns the parts he has been instructed, on the alter, and the rest "he burned with fire outside the camp as the LORD had commanded Moses." 

(v.18-21)  Moses then sacrifices "the ram as the (whole) burnt offering, after Aaron and his sons laid their hands on the head of the ram".  Moses cuts the ram into pieces and washes the right pieces.  This is the whole burnt offering, and Moses burns all of it on the alter.

(v. 22-24)  Moses sacrifices a "second ram" as a "consecration offering".  He takes blood of that sacrifice and anoints the right ear, the right thumb, and the right big toe of each man (Aaron, Nadab, Abihu).

(v.24)  Moses burns only "the fat", "the two kidneys and their fat", and the right thigh".  The rest of the usable meat belongs to the priests. 

(v.26-28)  Moses offers the grain offering that was always added to the consecration offering, after Aaron and sons take it in their hands to signify that they themselves are "wholly consecrated" to the LORD. 

(v.29)  Moses' "part" of the consecration offering was "the breast" of the animal sacrificed (because he was acting as priest).  Rather than keep it, Moses burns that also to demonstrate his own full consecration to the LORD. 

(v.30)  Moses again anoints Aaron and his sons with holy oil." 

(v.31) Moses instructs Aaron and his sons to "Boil the flesh at the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and eat it there with bread from the basket of consecration offerings."  When they ate of that offering and they were taking INTO themselves that consecration.

(v.32-33)  THEN Aaron and his sons are told not to "go outside the door of the tabrenacle of meeting for seven days, until the days of your consecration are ended."  "Therefore you shall abide at the door as of tabernacle of meeting day and night for seven days." 

Chapter Nine

(v.1)  It came to pass ON THE EIGHTH DAY that Moses called Aaron and his sons and the elders of Israel." 

PRIESTLY MINISTRY BEGINS

(v.2-3)  Aaron is commanded to sacrifice a sin offering + a burnt offering FOR Aaron AND a sin offering + burnt offering + peace offering + grain/oil offering FOR the people.

(v.4) "For TODAY the LORD will appear to you."

(v.7)  Moses tells Aaron to begin the priestly ministry.

(v.8-22)  Aaron offers all the sacrifices in the correct manner.

(v.23-24)  Moses and Aaron go into the Tabernacle and come out again.  Then the Glory of the LORD came from "before the LORD and consumed (what was left of) the burnt offering and the fat (of the consecration offering) on the alter. 

Chapter Ten  [There were no chapter divisions in the original text.]

(v.1-2)  THEN Nadab and Abihu "offered profane fire before the LORD which He had not commanded them."  The pair may be trying to act the part of High Priest, or their action may simply have gone beyond what the LORD commanded.  The attitude of these two men was not humble or respectful of the LORD's specific instructions. 

(v.4-5)  After two cousins of Aaron carry the bodies (with clothes) "out of the camp", Moses tells Aaron and his two sons who are left, not to tear their clothes or demonstrate mourning, BECAUSE "the anointing oil of the LORD is upon you" (v.6-7). 

(v.12)  "Then Moses spoke to Aaron,and Eleazar and Ithamar his sons who were left;  Take the grain offering that remains of the offerings made by fire to the LORD and eat it without leaven beside the alter, for it is most holy."  

(v.16)  "Then Moses diligently made inquiry about the goat of the sin offering, and there it was, burned up."  [It had been left on the alter.]

(v.16-18) Moses was angry with Eleazar and Ithamar, the sons of Aaron who were left.  He asks why they have not eaten [a portion of] the sin offering in a holy place, to bear the guilt of the congregation. 

QUESTION:  Why would Eleazar and Ithamar be eating the sin offering?  They have not yet gone through the 7 day consecration.  Or had they? 

Moses did tell them (not just Aaron) not to go outside of the Tabernacle (just after Nadab and Eleazar were killed)

It appears that Eleazar and Ithamar were also anointed/consecrated as priests, along with the two oldest sons.  They had participated in the initial sacrifices of the priestly ministry. 

(v.19)  "Aaron said to Moses, 'Look, THIS DAY they (his sons) have offered their sin offering and their burnt offering before the LORD and such things have befallen me!'" 

QUESTION:   What "things" had "befallen" Aaron on THAT DAY - the day that Eleazar and Ithamar forgot to eat a portion of the sin offering?  

It would appear that Nadab and Abihu were consumed ON THAT SAME DAY - THE 8TH DAY.   That is what caused the distraction.

Just my opinion. 

 

 

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BlessedMan
19 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Now there was a day when the sons of ELOHIYM came to present themselves before YAHWEH, and Satan came also among them. Job 1:6

Now, I am going to ask you a very simple question. Do you actually think he came as himself around beings who never sinned?

well, this text says NOTHING about the actual location where this happened, but we can know by other texts that it could not have been in heaven.  There's no proof that this happened in heaven.  How on earth would the very human "sons of God" get themselves into heaven at that time?  Pretending that you know the physical substance of Satan will not get you very far.

If a text tells us that "Satan transforms himself into an angel of Light," we have to go with that. Bible prophecy shows that this will be a live event, in real-time. He will transform to that "angel of light," just as scripture tells us. THAT angel will appear to be Christ to the unconverted world, and that will be his devious intentions then. His idea will be to use this form of the "angel of light" to deceive the people who do not know Him, or what His Word says about the 2nd coming.  And many will be deceived by this "angel of Light;" especially once the news media starts telling everyone that it is Jesus!  The Bible does reflect briefly on this very thing:

Quote

"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." (Mat 25:5).

"Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them." (Luke 21:8).

The text you quoted has nothing to do with the devil's specific physical substance when he joined in with "the sons of God' to accuse Him. Nor does it say this going "before God" took place in heaven. We go "before God" all the time, and we don't go to heaven!  All it tells us is that Satan joined in the chorus with those "sons of God" who were trying to accuse Job. It says he came as himself, and gives no hint of anything different, at least not in that text.  Zech 3:1 also talks about Joshua "standing before the Lord," and Satan is right there beside him, to accuse, which is his specialty. Rev 12:10 tells us that Satan has been "cast down to the earth," so there's really no way to bruit the texts into claiming that this all took place in heaven; and certainly, its nothing to do with physical substance or form thereof. The Bible NEVER gives us this kind of information about substance or the specific agency of "the devil." The lesson for Job 1:6 that you are quoting here is that Satan  admits Job’s goodness, but challenges its motive. He suggests that it is by no means disinterested. Satan still considers the saints, and finds out their weak places and secret sins. But he has no power over us save by the divine permission, and if we are tempted, there is always available the needed supply of grace, 2 Cor 12:9

Quote

And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. " (2 Cor 12:9)

The great controversy between Christ and Satan, that has been carried forward for nearly six thousand years, is soon to close; and the wicked one redoubles his efforts to defeat the work of Christ in man's behalf and to fasten souls in his snares. To hold the people in darkness and impenitence till the Saviour's mediation is ended, and there is no longer a sacrifice for sin, is the object which he seeks to accomplish.  {GC 518.1} 

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stinsonmarri
5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Leviticus Chapter Eight

Moses calls all "the congregation" to gather "at the door of the tabernacle of meeting" (1:3)

Verses 6-13  Moses dresses Aaron and his sons in priestly garb, and then anoints them with sacred oil.  He also anoints "the tabernacle and all that was in it".  (v.10)

Moses then sacrifices "the bull for the sin offering" for Aaron and his sons, after Aaron and his sons place their hands on the head of the animal (v.14-17)  Moses is acting as priest during this ceremony.  Moses burns the parts he has been instructed, on the alter, and the rest "he burned with fire outside the camp as the LORD had commanded Moses." 

(v.18-21)  Moses then sacrifices "the ram as the (whole) burnt offering, after Aaron and his sons laid their hands on the head of the ram".  Moses cuts the ram into pieces and washes the right pieces.  This is the whole burnt offering, and Moses burns all of it on the alter.

(v. 22-24)  Moses sacrifices a "second ram" as a "consecration offering".  He takes blood of that sacrifice and anoints the right ear, the right thumb, and the right big toe of each man (Aaron, Nadab, Abihu).

(v.24)  Moses burns only "the fat", "the two kidneys and their fat", and the right thigh".  The rest of the usable meat belongs to the priests. 

(v.26-28)  Moses offers the grain offering that was always added to the consecration offering, after Aaron and sons take it in their hands to signify that they themselves are "wholly consecrated" to the LORD. 

(v.29)  Moses' "part" of the consecration offering was "the breast" of the animal sacrificed (because he was acting as priest).  Rather than keep it, Moses burns that also to demonstrate his own full consecration to the LORD. 

(v.30)  Moses again anoints Aaron and his sons with holy oil." 

(v.31) Moses instructs Aaron and his sons to "Boil the flesh at the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and eat it there with bread from the basket of consecration offerings."  When they ate of that offering and they were taking INTO themselves that consecration.

(v.32-33)  THEN Aaron and his sons are told not to "go outside the door of the tabrenacle of meeting for seven days, until the days of your consecration are ended."  "Therefore you shall abide at the door as of tabernacle of meeting day and night for seven days." 

Chapter Nine

(v.1)  It came to pass ON THE EIGHTH DAY that Moses called Aaron and his sons and the elders of Israel." 

PRIESTLY MINISTRY BEGINS

(v.2-3)  Aaron is commanded to sacrifice a sin offering + a burnt offering FOR Aaron AND a sin offering + burnt offering + peace offering + grain/oil offering FOR the people.

(v.4) "For TODAY the LORD will appear to you."

(v.7)  Moses tells Aaron to begin the priestly ministry.

(v.8-22)  Aaron offers all the sacrifices in the correct manner.

(v.23-24)  Moses and Aaron go into the Tabernacle and come out again.  Then the Glory of the LORD came from "before the LORD and consumed (what was left of) the burnt offering and the fat (of the consecration offering) on the alter. 

Chapter Ten  [There were no chapter divisions in the original text.]

(v.1-2)  THEN Nadab and Abihu "offered profane fire before the LORD which He had not commanded them."  The pair may be trying to act the part of High Priest, or their action may simply have gone beyond what the LORD commanded.  The attitude of these two men was not humble or respectful of the LORD's specific instructions. 

(v.4-5)  After two cousins of Aaron carry the bodies (with clothes) "out of the camp", Moses tells Aaron and his two sons who are left, not to tear their clothes or demonstrate mourning, BECAUSE "the anointing oil of the LORD is upon you" (v.6-7). 

(v.12)  "Then Moses spoke to Aaron,and Eleazar and Ithamar his sons who were left;  Take the grain offering that remains of the offerings made by fire to the LORD and eat it without leaven beside the alter, for it is most holy."  

(v.16)  "Then Moses diligently made inquiry about the goat of the sin offering, and there it was, burned up."  [It had been left on the alter.]

(v.16-18) Moses was angry with Eleazar and Ithamar, the sons of Aaron who were left.  He asks why they have not eaten [a portion of] the sin offering in a holy place, to bear the guilt of the congregation. 

QUESTION:  Why would Eleazar and Ithamar be eating the sin offering?  They have not yet gone through the 7 day consecration.  Or had they? 

Moses did tell them (not just Aaron) not to go outside of the Tabernacle (just after Nadab and Eleazar were killed)

It appears that Eleazar and Ithamar were also anointed/consecrated as priests, along with the two oldest sons.  They had participated in the initial sacrifices of the priestly ministry. 

(v.19)  "Aaron said to Moses, 'Look, THIS DAY they (his sons) have offered their sin offering and their burnt offering before the LORD and such things have befallen me!'" 

QUESTION:   What "things" had "befallen" Aaron on THAT DAY - the day that Eleazar and Ithamar forgot to eat a portion of the sin offering?  

It would appear that Nadab and Abihu were consumed ON THAT SAME DAY - THE 8TH DAY.   That is what caused the distraction.

Just my opinion. 

 

 

Rachel: That is true it is just your opinion. The Bible did not indicate it was on the eighth day that this happen. The day was not important, it was the act that they did. The only reason I brought it up was that we should not add or subtract from the Bible. The 8th millennium or the 8th thousands years, I truly agree with you. In fact you gave some very interesting points, that I know we're great. Thank you very much for bringing that out! It was not to put you down in any way. We all can learn from each other that is why I stated the concern about the 8th day!

Blessings!

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8thdaypriest

Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding! 5 Who set its measurements– if you know– or who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its bases set, or who laid its cornerstone– 7 when the morning stars sang in chorus, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (NET)

In this text "all the sons of God shouted for joy" when the earth was created.  In that context, it's hard to imagine they were human beings - unless God has other planets or dimensions with human beings.  Seems more likely they were some order of angelic being.  Satan may have been one of them - originally. 

Psalm 11:4 The LORD is in his holy temple; the LORD's throne is in heaven.  (NET)

Isaiah 66:1 This is what the LORD says: "Heaven is my throne,  (NIV)

Matthew 5:34 "But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; (NKJ)

The following was spoken by Micaiah the prophet to Ahab:
1 Kings 22:19 "And Micaiah said, "Therefore, hear the word of the LORD. I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left. 20 "And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said this while another said that. 21 "Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.' 22 "And the LORD said to him, 'How?' And he said, 'I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then He said, 'You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.'"

The picture is of a Council Meeting in Heaven, before God's throne.  The spirit that came forward and offered to "be a deceiving spirit" would be Satan - "the deceiver".  He comes right into that meeting.  Hasn't been cast out of Heaven - yet.

I see the picture in Job 1:6-7, as a council meeting in Heaven before God's throne.  The Son of God was/is "commander of the armies of the LORD", so I personally wonder if "the LORD" in Job 1:6 was God's pre-incarnate Son.  Anyway. 

I see Satan joining that meeting as the representative of earth, because he had dominion.  Adam and Eve had rebelled against God, and Satan had taken over. 

The LORD is countering Satan's right of complete and total dominion, by pointing to Job "a blameless and upright man" who "fears God and shuns evil".  Satan then counters that Job is (in essence) bribed to do so.  Job gets all those blessings and protection from God.  So the LORD counters with the offer to remove those protections - except for one.  Satan may not actually kill Job. 

It is a picture of Satan vs Christ, except for the death. 

Christ leaves "heaven" and the protection of His Father, and adoration of angels.  Then Christ goes through all the troubles and temptations and rejections.  Then (without His Father's protection) He is physically tortured while being mentally tormented by all the forces of Hell.  And He dies under the torture - much to Satan's surprise and disappointment - without sinning once.  Christ wins. 

When was Satan cast out of Heaven, and no longer allowed to enter the Heavenly courts? 

Personally, I believe it was AFTER Christ was glorified following His resurrection. 

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (KJV)

 Revelation 12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." (KJV)

Revelation 12:13 "And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child." (NAS)

Here Satan is persecuting God's Israel, after he is "cast down to the earth".  Sounds like this happens BEFORE the Second Coming, but AFTER Christ's victory at the cross.  This leaves open the scenario that Satan could have entered the Court of Heaven up to that time. 

 

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stinsonmarri
4 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

There's no proof that this happened in heaven.  How on earth would the very human "sons of God" get themselves into heaven at that time?  Pretending that you know the physical substance of Satan will not get you very far.

First, of all who said anything about humans? These were beings from all of the unfallen worlds. They saw the earth being made and rejoice:

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the cornerstone thereof. When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of ELOHIYM shouted for joy? Job 38: 4-7

Have I ever told you that you pretended anything? Why on earth would you think I would? I will always provide to you what the Bible says. You are the one claiming that he is going to impersonate THE MESSIAH. I stated very clearly that is not so. You want to take a Scripture that says Satan can appear as an angel of light to say that this mean also he has the power to impersonate HIS CREATOR! I disagree with you because that is not what the Scripture or any Scriptures have stated!

Now, about his physical being I will let the Bible speak and then you can ask if it is pretending?

 And of the angels HE SAITH, Who maketh HIS angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. Heb 1:7

The Bible said that HIS angels are spirits. The Bible said they can transform to an Holy angel. I read in Job that the SONS of ELOHIYM, that are not from this world presented themselves before YAHWEH! You nor I cannot say that both the Adams didn't make that journey before they sin. Time of limitation was not known, how long they were in the Garden before they fail! You have no idea the powers of the Adams before they sin, nor why YAHWEH came down particularly about Nimrod and the people and stated this:

And YAHWEH said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Gen 11:6  

That did not come out of my mouth. When we think we know all of the facts back during that time; ask yourself how possible is a Tree that has LIFE! Called the Tree of LIFE! What in that Tree, do you know? Remember there is a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, how is that possible? You nor I know all the wonders of YAHWEH, we cannot even fathom HIS POWERS. Worlds, star, suns hanging out there in space on nothing! You can't even tell that this world rotates from evening to evening. My point, I accept what THEY give us and realize that no being, not even Satan can match, impersonate or be like THEM. If you think so that's your right and choice, but just remember, the Bible does not say so! 

Blessings!

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BlessedMan

thanks for this reply Rachel. I read the post twice, and some of it makes sense; but I am seeing some compartmentalizing of various scriptures, that IMO seem to be not really in scripture. I think we all tend to do this from time to time.  I think the key can be found in your comments about the book of Job. When I have time, and energy, Ill try to put that into a sensible reply.

May I ask you why its important to decide that "Satan went to heaven" a few times as you mentioned above? Should that really matter to us today??

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stinsonmarri
On 12/1/2019 at 12:24 AM, JoeMo said:

There is nothing in scripture that explicitly talks about two second comings; just like there is no explicit scripture describing a trinity.

Well the Scriptures does state very clear about 2 comings.

 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and HE that sat upon him was called FAITHFUL and TRUE, and in Righteousness HE doth judge and make war. HIS EYES were as a Flame of Fire, and on HIS HEAD were Many crowns; and HE had A NAME written, that no man knew, but HE HIMSELF. And HE was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and HIS NAME is called THE WORD ELOHIYM. And the armies which were in Heaven followed HIM upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of HIS MOUTH goeth a Sharp Sword, that with it HE should smite the nations: and HE shall rule them with a rod of iron: and HE treadeth the winepress of the FIERCENESS and WRATH of EL SHADDAI. And HE hath on HIS Vesture and on HIS THIGH A NAME written, KING OF KINGS, AND SOVEREIGN OF SOVEREIGNS. Rev 19:11-16

This is the first coming of YAHSHUA; HE takes the saints both living and the ones who are resurrected back with HIM! The beast and the false prophet is thrown into the Lake of Fire, the birds eat the flesh of all the beast army and the wicked. Satan in the next chapter is taken and put in prison for a thousand years. That starts the 8th thousand years! So YAHSHUA executed out the death penalty forever to the false prophet and the beast , they are consumed!

The second coming at the end of the 8th thousand years of this earth history as we know when sin begin. Here is what the Bible says:

 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, THE MASTER cometh with ten thousands of HIS saints,   To Execute Judgment upon all, and to convince all that are wicked among them of all their unrighteous deeds which they have wickedly committed, and of all their hard speeches which wicked sinners have spoken against HIM. 
These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. Jude 1:14-16 

 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of THE FATHER and of THE MESSIAH, and shall reign with HIM a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from ELOHE out of Heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.  And I saw a great White Throne, and HIM that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before the Throne; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and the grave delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and the grave were cast into the Lake of Lire. This is the second death.  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the Lake of Fire. Rev 20:5-15

And he said to me, Do not seal the Words of the prophecy of this Book, because the time is at hand.The one acting unjustly, will continue to act unjustly; and he who is filthy, will continue to be filthy; and to the righteous, let him continue to do righteousness; and he who is Holy, let him continue to be Holy.And behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work. I am the ALEPH and the TAV, THE BEGINNING and the ENDING, THE FIRST and THE LAST. Rev 22:10 -13

The Bibles gives two comings! The New Jerusalem comes back with HIM the second time. He also touches Mt. Olive and it is made plain because old Jerusalem had become Babylon. It was destroyed by the beast; who fulfill the WILL of YAHWEH, THE FATHER! YAHSHUA'S touches the ground and it covers the hole where the old city was burned, then cast into the sea!

Blessings!

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8thdaypriest
15 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

thanks for this reply Rachel. I read the post twice, and some of it makes sense; but I am seeing some compartmentalizing of various scriptures, that IMO seem to be not really in scripture. I think we all tend to do this from time to time.  I think the key can be found in your comments about the book of Job. When I have time, and energy, Ill try to put that into a sensible reply.

May I ask you why its important to decide that "Satan went to heaven" a few times as you mentioned above? Should that really matter to us today??

I think it was Satan's murder of the Son of God that finally turned every unfallen being against him. 

Satan was fully "unmasked" (I believe) by his treatment of God's innocent/righteous Son. 

It's part of God's way of dealing with his sentient created beings.  God does not just execute judgments that His created beings have no understanding of, or agreement with.  He brings them to the point of agreeing with His judgments. 

I believe it will be the same with His final judgment of "the dead".  That is what the final review of the records is for - to get "closure" for the saved, concerning those human beings who have not been made immortal. 

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JoeMo
9 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

This is the first coming of YAHSHUA; HE takes the saints both living and the ones who are resurrected back with HIM! The beast and the false prophet is thrown into the Lake of Fire, the birds eat the flesh of all the beast army and the wicked. Satan in the next chapter is taken and put in prison for a thousand years. That starts the 8th thousand years! So YAHSHUA executed out the death penalty forever to the false prophet and the beast , they are consumed!

The second coming at the end of the 8th thousand years of this earth history as we know when sin begin.

First of all, I think you meant the start of the 7th thousand years.  Second of all, my proposal of two Second Comings does not place them 1,000 years apart.

" For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1 Thess. 4:16-17)

This is when Jesus returns FOR His Saints at the end of the 1,260 days.  He takes us off of the earth; and then the wrath of God (the 7 Bowls) are poured out.

"Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake[a] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him." (Zech. 14:3-5)

This is when Jesus returns to earth WITH His Saints. It could be 30 days after He comes FOR His saints (hence the 1290 days of Dan. 12?) IOW, it's conceivable ( to me at least) that Jesus comes once for His saints, God's wrath falls on unrepentant humanity, and then Jesus returns WITH His saints to set up His Millennial Kingdom on earth.

I state this as an opinion; not a dogma.  The idea is new to me; and I'm sure there are some holes in it that need filling in. If one desires to challenge this, please do so with scripture.

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BlessedMan
41 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I think it was Satan's murder of the Son of God that finally turned every unfallen being against him. 

thanks! Great answer! lol We do have some agreements.

I have always wondered why some people call that "murder" re the death of Jesus. Any insight on that?

I took a long look at some things re the book of Job, those questions/observations will have to wait for a less busy time.

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JoeMo
3 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

I have always wondered why some people call that "murder" re the death of Jesus. Any insight on that?

Murder: The crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought (Webster's Dictionary).

In Acts 7:51-52, Stephen is preaching to the Jews before he is martyred, and says:

" Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him-" 

This explicitly states that the Jews - not satan - murdered Christ. However, that's kind of like saying a contract killer is the murderer rather than the person who made the contract with the contract killer. satan WAS ultimately responsible for Christ's death, even though he did not actually execute the deed.

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning," (John 8:44a)

However, could any created being actually murder God?  Or did Jesus voluntarily lay down His life?

"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” (John 10:17-18)

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stinsonmarri
On 12/1/2019 at 2:50 PM, BlessedMan said:

The great controversy between Christ and Satan, that has been carried forward for nearly six thousand years, is soon to close; and the wicked one redoubles his efforts to defeat the work of Christ in man's behalf and to fasten souls in his snares. To hold the people in darkness and impenitence till the Saviour's mediation is ended, and there is no longer a sacrifice for sin, is the object which he seeks to accomplish.  {GC 518.1} 

How Shall We Search the Scriptures?

 How shall we search the Scriptures in order to understand what they teach? We should come to the investigation of GOD'S WORD with a contrite heart, a teachable and prayerful spirit. We are not to think, as did the *(Hebrews), that our own ideas and opinions are infallible; nor with the papists, are that certain individuals the sole guardians of truth and knowledge, that men have no right to search the Scriptures for themselves, but must accept the explanations given by the fathers of the church. We should not study the Bible for the purpose of sustaining our preconceived opinions, but with the single object of learning what GOD has said.  Some have feared that if in even a single point they acknowledge themselves in error; other minds would be led to doubt the whole theory of truth.

Therefore, they have felt that investigation should not be permitted, that it would tend to dissension and disunion. But if such is to be the result of investigation, the sooner it comes the better. If there are those whose faith in GOD'S WORD will not stand the test of an investigation of the Scriptures, the sooner they are revealed the better; for then the way will be opened to show them their error. We cannot hold that a position once taken, an idea once advocated, is not, under any circumstances, to be relinquished. There is but ONE who is INFALLIBLE--HE who is THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE.

Those who allow prejudice to bar the mind against the reception of truth cannot receive the divine enlightenment. Yet, when a view of Scripture is presented, many do not ask, is it true--in harmony with GOD'S WORD? But, by whom is it advocated and unless it comes through the very channel that pleases them, they do not accept it. So thoroughly satisfied are they with their own ideas that they will not examine the Scripture evidence with a desire to learn, but refuse to be interested, merely because of their prejudices.

THE MASTER often works where we least expect HIM; HE surprises us by revealing HIS POWERS through instruments of HIS OWN choice, while HE passes by the men to whom we have looked as those through whom light should come. GOD desires us to receive the truth upon its own merits--because it is truth.

The Bible must not be interpreted to suit the ideas of men, however long they may have held these ideas to be true. We are not to accept the opinion of commentators as THE VOICE of GOD; they were erring mortals like ourselves. GOD has given reasoning powers to us as well as to them. We should make the Bible its own expositor. TM p. 105, 106

It is sad, that we do not read EGW book, that she wrote just before she died. This book was completed and published, just before she died. She realize that they, the pioneers might believed in things that were not Biblical. EGW did not have a vision with Great Controversy, this were the views and thoughts at the time. All of the Protestants world believed very close views at that time. When they read Matt 24 talking about the false messiahs.

Persons will arise pretending to be Christ HIMSELF, and claiming the title and worship which belong to the world's Redeemer. They will perform wonderful miracles of healing, and will profess to have revelations from heaven contradicting the testimony of the Scriptures. GC p. 624 

Yes ,the same Text about Satan can appear as an angel of light is believed. The pioneers felt and believed that Satan would try to pretend to impersonate YAHSHUA!

As the crowning act in the great drama of deception, Satan himself will impersonate Christ. The church has long professed to look to the Saviour's advent as the consummation of her hopes. Now the great deceiver will make it appear that Christ has come. In different parts of the earth, Satan will manifest himself among men as a majestic heing of dazzling brightness, resembling the description of the Son of God given by John in the Revelation. (Rev 1: 13·15)

EGW said given by John in the Revelation. If you really know the writings of EGW she supplies her Scriptures in her writing. EGW just stated Revelation and then below is place the Text I placed in parenthesis. That Text is not in her writings, just Revelation. The Text is wrong because the Bible clearly states how YAHSHUA will appear at HIS coming. HE will have Seven Crowns on HIS HEAD. The Text describe YAHSHUA as THE HIGH PRIEST in HIS PRIESTLY ROBE! 

No Sunday versus The Sabbath is in the Bible. The Seal of ELOHIYM, the angel from the east had! So the 144,000 was not keeping the Sabbath and the angel had to get them; with the seal to keep the Sabbath? Now, that don't fly! The Bible said they will be the ones to keep The Commandments and have The Testimony of YAHSHUA already! Hum? EGW does not give any Scriptures to make the above claim. So, again I ask, how long are we going to put her views, not her visions, above the Bible? If they had everything intact then, why are we still here? All want to accept things without having the faith to question to see if these things are so! Please, study for yourself and ask question. The Bible says prove it! Then do it! Your soul is on the line! Don't take my word either, check it out for yourself and see if it is true. What do you have to lose? I will tell you very simply, your soul! My soul is that important, I hope yours is too!

Blessings!

 

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8thdaypriest
3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Murder: The crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought (Webster's Dictionary).

In Acts 7:51-52, Stephen is preaching to the Jews before he is martyred, and says:

" Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him-" 

This explicitly states that the Jews - not satan - murdered Christ. However, that's kind of like saying a contract killer is the murderer rather than the person who made the contract with the contract killer. satan WAS ultimately responsible for Christ's death, even though he did not actually execute the deed.

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning," (John 8:44a)

However, could any created being actually murder God?  Or did Jesus voluntarily lay down His life?

"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” (John 10:17-18)

It's semantics.  I believe Jesus allowed Himself to be killed.  That is still laying down His life.  He knew that He would be killed. 

As for Satan not directly executing "the deed", I believe he did "directly" torment the mind of Jesus, and cloud His mind to where Jesus could not sense His Father with Him.  That is why Jesus cried out, "Why have you forsaken me!" 

That torment hastened His death - for sure.  God the Father did not protect Him from either the physical torture or the mental torment. 

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BlessedMan
4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

It's semantics.  I believe Jesus allowed Himself to be killed.  That is still laying down His life.  He knew that He would be killed. 

As for Satan not directly executing "the deed", I believe he did "directly" torment the mind of Jesus, and cloud His mind to where Jesus could not sense His Father with Him.  That is why Jesus cried out, "Why have you forsaken me!" 

That torment hastened His death - for sure.  God the Father did not protect Him from either the physical torture or the mental torment. 

While I would not recommend using an English dictionary to define Biblical things, I can certainly see that such "torment" was a part of the picture.

This is why I don't use the term "murdered" to relate what took place:

Quote

Isa 53:3  He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4  Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5  But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6  All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7  He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8  He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9  And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10  Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11  He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

The above doesn't sound at all like "murder," because there was so much MORE than just His death...

It is also reasonable to assess that God sets limits on what the devil can get away with; there were limits even at Calvary, IMO  But here is where we can get an idea about said limits, or some might say "red lines:"

Quote

Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7  And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 1:8  And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:9  Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

While I have never looked into it seriously, I remain very puzzled with this passage; esp verse 8...if one continues reading this passage, it can be seen that God did draw a red line or two.

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8thdaypriest
18 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

While I have never looked into it seriously, I remain very puzzled with this passage; esp verse 8...if one continues reading this passage, it can be seen that God did draw a red line or two.

Yes.  Red lines.  FIRST:  Satan was turned "loose" on all Jobs possessions and his kids.  THEN on Job's "flesh".  Red line:  spare his life (you cannot actually kill him.  THIRD:  Job's reputation.  Even his "friends" kept telling Job just to confess the sin that had caused this punishment. 

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stinsonmarri
On 12/1/2019 at 7:30 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding! 5 Who set its measurements– if you know– or who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its bases set, or who laid its cornerstone– 7 when the morning stars sang in chorus, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (NET)

In this text "all the sons of God shouted for joy" when the earth was created.  In that context, it's hard to imagine they were human beings - unless God has other planets or dimensions with human beings.  Seems more likely they were some order of angelic being.  Satan may have been one of them - originally. 

You know, I did not notice  this comment at all. I see we are still trying to make the sons of ELOHIYM angels and they are not. It seems mighty strange that we are only the one called the sons or children of ELOHIYM? 

For as many as are led by the Spirit of ELOHIYM, they are the sons of ELOHIYM. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of ELOHIYM. Rom 8:14, 19 

That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of ELOHIYM, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Php 2:15 

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of ELOHIYM: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of ELOHIYM, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1John 3:1, 2 

Then Satan name Lucifer just so happen to means:

Hêylêl: From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - lucifer. Strong Hebrew Dictionary

Then it is strange when he says:

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into Heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of ELOHIYM: I will sit also upon the Mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: Isa 14:13 

Now, why would he say above the stars of THE MOST HIGH?

 

Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east and are come to worship him. Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. Mat 2:2, 7,-10 

And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; Rev 8:10 

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. Rev 9:1 

It is very clear, that angels are call stars because of their brightness in comparison. That is their symbol. It was not a star that stopped at Jerusalem and that guided the wise men. The wise said HIS star and Herod wanted know about the star. Here is one who understands the truth about the star in Rev 9:1. 

An angel encompassed with light suddenly descended and  deemed like a star falling from heaven. Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

Yes, Adam Clarke knew that Holy angels are brighter then any star they are around the POWER and GLORY of THE ALMIGHTY ONES!

Satan thought he could ascend above the stars that surrounding THE MOST HIGH Throne. These are the seraphims that the Bible declares: Rev 4:6

 And before the Throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. KJV

In front of the Throne, there was something like a sea of glass as clear as crystal. In the center near the throne and around the throne were four living creatures covered with eyes in front and in back. GW 

All the angels were call morning stars in Job and the Hebrew words, The first word taking the root word bâqar means: to break out ko-kawb' means:  blazing; a star as round or as shining; figuratively a prince. Strong Hebrew Dictionary

These were the cherubims; the prince order, where Satan at one time was more glorious then all of them. He was the covering angel that receive THE GLORY of THE FATHER that his body was specifically created:

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of Elohim; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the HOLY Mountain of ELOHIYM; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Eze 28:13-15  

That is why his name was Lucifer, he was known in the sense of brightness that could not be compared. His powers were so great, that Gabriel could not contend with over the king of Persia MICHAEL had to show up.

MICHAEL is THE ONLY ARCHANGEL and HE IS THE BRIGHT AND MORNING STAR!

Because the MASTER HIMSELF shall come down from Heaven with a COMMANDING SHOUT of AN ARCHANGEL’S VOICE, and with the Trumpet of YAHWEH. And the dead in MESSIAH will rise again first. 1Th 4:16

But MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said,, "Let YAHWEH rebuke you!" Jude 1:9

You must know HE is THE BRIGHTEST, THE HEAD CHIEF PRINCE of the angels. 

And at that time shall MICHAEL stand up, THE GREAT PRINCE which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Dan 12:1 

And there was war in Heaven: MICHAEL and HIS angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in Heaven. Rev 12:7, 8 

I YAHSHUA have sent MINE angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I AM THE ROOT and THE OFFSPRING of David, and THE BRIGHT and MORNING STAR. Rev 22:16 

YAHSHUA was seen by John that is unimaginable but so descriptive to show that no created being in the Universe could match HIS BRIGHTNESS and GLORY! This is the facts about the morning stars who sung when this earth was made. It was stated: "It's hard to imagine they were human beings." No one said that they were human beings. They are beings from the unfallen worlds, that you nor I have seen. EGW saw them and Enoch was visiting one of the worlds. I believe her! Because we were sons and daughters of YAHWEH before we sin and after. That why YAHWEH allowed HIS SON to come and die so we could be redeem back. I will say this, we will easily believe in aliens who are so distorted, rather then believe in magnificent beings that travel from their worlds to come and worship in Heaven before their CREATOR! We have big gathering but you just can't see that it all came from THEM! The Bibles reveals the truth but it is THE HOLY SPIRIT that lead and guide us to it! Ask HIM and you will see!

Blessings!

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JoeMo
8 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

I see we are still trying to make the sons of ELOHIYM angels and they are not.

You are free to believe whatever you want.  In the OT, those described as sons of God are indeed (IMHO) angels.  They are called sons of God because they are direct creations of God.  It wasn't until the NT that humans were called sons of God; and that is simply because we were adopted as sons. The only humans who were called sons (direct creations) of God are Adam and Jesus.

"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." (Romans 8:15)

"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. "(Romans 8:23)

"Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;" (Romans 9:4)

"To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons." (Gal. 4:5)

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," (Eph 1:5)

Show me some OT scriptures where beings other than angels or Christ are called "sons of God". I haven't found any.

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8thdaypriest
On 12/5/2019 at 11:35 AM, JoeMo said:

Show me some OT scriptures where beings other than angels or Christ are called "sons of God". I haven't found any.

Good point Joe.

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8thdaypriest
On 11/30/2019 at 5:17 PM, BlessedMan said:

where does it say "8th Millenium?"

Satan is in prison during the 7th millennium.

"The rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished."   IOW - at the 8th millennium. 

I do not agree with the SDA view that "the rest" are "the lost" who are to be raised, judged (again) and then burned up (again). 

I believe "the rest" will be those who (for whatever reason) were not able to CHOOSE whom they would serve.  They lived and died in ignorance because of immaturity (of age), disability, or lack of information (they died before the missionaries could reach them).   These people must be allowed to CHOOSE.  The only time frame I see for this, is during the 8th millennium. 

Those saved at the "first resurrection" will serve to govern and teach those raised "second".  (As priests and kings.) 

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BlessedMan
1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Satan is in prison during the 7th millennium.

Thank you for the reply Rachel. Now I am wondering, if I may ask, where is this 7th taken from? IOW, what, in scripture tells us this is a 7th millenium?" (I am just trying to clarify the main points being made here for now. I appreciate very much the replies. :)

Edited by BlessedMan

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