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Pope Francis 2020 plan is to rally Nations behind Climate change and Sunday law

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B/W Photodude

I have read several times here that Sunday laws will not happen and no conflict over the day of worship will occur. We may wish to revisit those statements!

Pope Francis 2020 plan is to rally Nations behind Climate change and Sunday law

Laudato Si’, is the Pope’s encyclical on climate change, there he offers some suggestions on how to combat climate change, including reducing carbon emissions, carpooling, planting trees and recycling.

“These are not bad suggestions, but in the encyclical, Pope Francis also suggests Sundays with keeping a better environment. 

The implication here is that we need to have a law mandating rest on Sunday, so it appears that his agenda on climate change includes giving Sunday rest and worship mandated by law to improve the environment.

https://adventinformer.org/en/bible-study/sunday-worship/pope-francis-2020-plan-is-to-rally-nations-behind-climate-change-and-sunday-law/

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BlessedMan
3 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

The implication here is that we need to have a law mandating rest on Sunday, so it appears that his agenda on climate change includes giving Sunday rest and worship mandated by law to improve the environment.

This is just the kind of thing I have been trying to say that we are seeing in "evangelism."  Incidentally, this whole "climate" change thing did not originate with "the science." We heard this FIRST at church.  More, later.

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dgrimm60

B/W PHOTO DUDE 

This  reminds me  of  NOAH and  The Arc  and the people that  lived at this  time===

they  were  using  human reasoning  and  popular belief

so  today  with  the POPE===and other  church  leaders===and  political leaders  

they  are  using human reasoning  and popular beliefs  about  Climatic  change  and

how to  deal  with  it

 

dgrimm60

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BlessedMan
22 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

“These are not bad suggestions, but in the encyclical, Pope Francis also suggests Sundays with keeping a better environment. 

GRETCHEN C. DAILY in a paper called "Mainstreaming the Values of Nature for People into Decision-Making," (Vatican City, 2014), began a paper she wrote by quoting Confucious:

Quote

"There are three pathways to wisdom.
The first is through contemplation, and that is the noblest.
The second is through imitation, and that is the easiest.
The third is through experience, and that is the bitterest."

Daily began the study with a summary as follows:

Quote

 

"Promising efforts to harmonize people and Nature are being launched worldwide, in ways that reflect this ancient Confucian proverb. They are designed to help individuals and institutions see the values of Nature; to replicate models of success for integrating Nature’s values into decision making; thereby, to avoid the devastating consequences of their loss. Lights of innovation shine in many regions of the world. In terms of pace and scale of policy innovation, China and Latin America stand out especially.

Key challenges remain, however, in fundamental understanding of the vital connections between people and Nature, and the institutions and governance systems through which these intimate, yet often hidden, connections can be made visible priorities for investment. Rapid advances are urgently needed to move from the initial awakening underway today to a deep and lasting societal transformation." (Sustainable Humanity, Sustainable Nature: Our Responsibility, pg 1)"

 

Did you catch what The Vatican is saying here?

"Rapid advances are URGENTLY needed..." Yes, you heard about "climate emergency" first, at Church. It appears that while there are indeed, "vital connections between people and Nature," that this is not really the whole story. The Church started with this game a long time before "the science" appeared, that we are all supposed to listen to.

I have been reading a book called "Ecotheology: Voices From South And North." by David G Hallman.

I have learned some startling things about the history behind "climate change." One of the reasons I keep putting "climate" change into quotes like this is because it is very unclear to me how we humans can ever, really change the climate. There are far too many questions about that doctrine to make it believable. When it comes to the environment, that is something we can change. Environment and climate are two different things. But I am not a scientist, so back to the book.

As I mentioned above, the Church has apparently long been at work, developing what it has coined as "ecotheology."

Ecotheology seeks to develop a tyrannical doctrine on the "interconnectedness" of the environment, and of economic development. In one fell-swoop, "the church" proposes that anyone and everyone who asks questions about her radicalized "climate" agenda, should have to endure severe pain or suffering being inflicted upon them, such as is befitting of so called "climate deniers;" whom The Pope seems to enjoy stigmatizing as "stupid deniers."

The book "Ecotheology: Voices From South and North" talks about the church's role in finding confluence, (no matter how twisted), with almost every facet of our life, and the so-called "climate change" dilemna.

Now I am a Christian, so please do not rush into the battle trying to say how I am against churches or religion, because I am not. But could it be that "the church" has historically, always sought to set up an "us and them" cultural mindset that is purported to be "just what the world needs?"

I think that some even call that "God's work." One of the things I am saying here is not to be thought of as making a particular drive against any specific Church; not even The Catholic Church. This book, Ecotheology is actually authored by David G Hallman, program officer for energy and environment, on the national staff of The United Church of Canada. Hallman also co-chairs The Canadian Taskforce On the Churches and Corporate Responsibility.

While it is true that the "the church" has consistently pointed out, over the years, a biblical focus on the relationships of justice, peace, and the creation; it cannot be demonstrated that said peace has actually been achieved by all of the gerrymandering, denominational brinkmanship of said climate change dogma produced by The Church.

One of the biggest and most consistent points raised by the church seems to be that "the environment" is needed by everyone; and therefore it will always transcend across all traditional, socio-political, geographical, and/or religious boundaries; and that the current divisions within the church need to be done away with in the name, (for the common good) of "climate change." While it's true that, historically, the church, in one sense or another, has always articulated a vision of what we could call "Shalom," it simply has not happened to bring about such peace. According to the book, "Shalom" is a way for people to live together within the human family,and within the totality of all Creation; as a "One Earth Community." (see Ecotheology, pg 5).

All of the major denominations have concurrently been developing their own visions of "ecotheology," on a dynamic basis that seems to change with every little breeze that comes along. Some of the bigger players are even coining modernity's "ecotheology" as THE progressive new way to catapult the "ecumenical" common-good agenda into everyone's living rooms via the internet, and the local churches. Some sources, coming from a bit of a different angle, still point out similar agendas.

"Models Do Not Equal Evidence. Did you know?

Quote

"In recent years climate models have predicted much more warming than has actually occurred. But scientists have begun referring to climate model predictions as “evidence” and “data.” "Listen to THAT science," we are told. Energy secretary Steven Chu was so enamored with climate models that he boasted "we know the future."  But the reality is that the temperature of the Earth has held nearly steady for two decades. And yet the climate models continue to predict accelerated warming. In fact, they’ve already predicted much more warming for recent years than has actually occurred. Nevertheless, the climate warmists continue to tout their models’ predictions for the future." (Morano, Marc. The Politically Incorrect Guide to Climate Change pg 109). Regnery Publishing. Kindle Edition).

(I just got an email from a so called climate NGO that told me how the temperature in the Antarctic "may rise 7 degrees" in the next few years, and yet, just a few months ago the same person was saying it would only be around 3 degrees). That number also keeps changing with every new storm or forest fire, and yet; we have accomplished nothing by "believing it. One of the more interesting things about that guy is that he just happens to be the owner of a solar panel company!).

Quote

“Unfortunately the climate models, and this is very important for you to understand, you can take a look at the ensemble of the United Nations climate models and see for yourself they are failing at the 95% level—they’re predicting too much warming,” climatologist Pat Michaels has noted.1 “Predictions can never be ‘falsifiable’ in the present: we must ultimately wait to see whether they come true,” climate activist professor Michael Mann of Penn State wrote in 2017.2  (Morano, Marc. The Politically Incorrect Guide to Climate Change pg 109). Regnery Publishing. Kindle Edition).

The article above that I cited from "Mainstreaming The Values Of Nature" is a Church-derived paper. The paper concludes by saying:

Quote

 

"Mainstreaming "natural capital" into decisions is a long-term proposition, requiring co-evolving advances in knowledge, social institutions, and culture. Certainly no single effort will be sufficient to achieve this. But each can contribute to the theory of change (Bradach et al. 2009) laid out here, with its three key elements: co-development of new tools and approaches; real-world demonstrations; and engaging leaders. First, governments, businesses, and individuals must find it easy to inculcate ecosystem services and natural capital into their decisions, and the methods for doing so must be transparent, credible, and predictable. In many cases, sectors of society are open to the concepts of ecosystem services and natural capital, but simply do not know how to use them in a tangible way. Second, there need to be examples of projects or enterprises that – as a result of properly valuing ecosystem services and natural capital – end up with improved decisions, institutions, and human well-being. These examples both test our knowledge against real-world problems, but also produce compelling stories of how an ecosystem services approach made a difference.

Lastly, these examples of success must have visibility and charisma, to draw political and thought leaders to them and thereby trigger much broader awareness. This is where the lessons of a set of examples can be mainstreamed into the myriad decisions – by businesses, governments, farmers, and banks – that are made every year and that impact our natural and social world. This is where the impact of scattered projects can be magnified into worldwide change."

"Mainstreaming "Natural Capitol" into international decisions" is the intention of "ecotheology," and the article explains "Natural Capitol" as the commodification of everything in nature, or in the environment. The environment is going to become a business unit where those who have more will get more and those who have less will get less. "Natural Capitol" is the idea that ALL of nature, no matter what we are talking about, is a commodity to be owned by someone. Obviously, thats not going to be owned by everyone, and the current state of capitolism will ensure that the few who have more will get more of the "climate change benefits" and the many with less, will still get less.

The Natural Capital Project is an international partnership, founded in 2006 to help meet this challenge (www.naturalcapitalproject.org). The vision of the Natural Capital Project (NatCap) is a world in which people, governments,and corporations recognize the values of Nature in supporting human well-being, and routinely incorporate them into decision-making.
NatCap is focused on making three major advances that together will help transform how businesses, governments, and individuals interact with nature: (page 4).

 

To explain "natural Capitol" further, on pg 2-3 we read:

Quote

"Framing ecosystems as "natural capital" assets is a way of incorporating human impacts and dependence on Nature into mainstream decision-making. This framing shows starkly that – relative to other forms of capital (physical, financial, human, and social forms) – living natural capital is poorly understood, scarcely monitored, and in many important cases undergoing rapid degradation and depletion (Daily et al. 2000; Balmford et al. 2002; NRC 2005; Dasgupta 2010). Often its importance is widely appreciated only upon loss, such as in the wake of Hurricane Katrina or the Asian Tsunami. Including the value of "ecosystem services" in the decisions of governments, corporations, traditional cultures, and individuals is designed to broaden our understanding of the roles Nature plays in our lives and the reasons – including the moral imperative – for conserving it (Leopold 1949, Norton 1987, Ehrenfeld 1988, Rolston 2000, Daily and Ellison 2002).

This paper from the church entities calls "natural capitol" a world-wide business unit, and the whole thing is mashed into whats being called "The New Green Deal." But who is it going to be "green for?" How will this "green deal" actually "change the climate?" Will it improve the environment? Will it change the climate? Can human beings really change the climate? It is of interest to note that many of the major climate NGOs have very few "climate experts" in their organizations. In certain of the major environmental NGOs, the leaders are also owners of solar panel companies, or other "green industries," so called. At the very least, while we "listen to the science;" we need to start following the money. Where is it coming from? Who will get it? And what will it accomplish? There are so many layers to the finances of "climate change" that it will be next to impossible to discover complete facts.

Quote

A global consensus is essential for confronting the deeper problems, which cannot be resolved by unilateral actions on the part of individual countries. (Pope Francis. Encyclical on Climate Change and Inequality (p. 102). Melville House. Kindle Edition).

Recent  headlines show a Pope all too willing to demonize anyone who questions his agenda. Pope Francis is on public record as stigmatizing anyone who questions the radicalized "climate" agenda by calling such people "stupid deniers." (just after Hurricane Irma).

"Pope Francis slams 'stupid' climate change deniers. Pontiff calls on politicians to take scientists' advice as he raises alarm over global warming after major storms. Pope Francis has sharply criticised climate change deniers as "stupid" in the wake of a spate of powerful hurricanes that have wreaked havoc in the United States, Mexico and the Caribbean. "Those who deny it [climate change] should go to the scientists (meaning the IPCC), and ask them," the pontiff said on Monday during an in-flight press conference on the return leg of a five-day Colombia trip. "They speak very clearly." As his charter plane flew over some of the recently devastated areas en route to Rome, Francis added: "I am reminded of a phrase from the Old Testament, I think from the Psalm: 'Man is stupid, he is stubborn and he does not see.'"

Once again, "the church" sets the pace for an "us and them" scenario that will spell doom for honest inquirers; yet the whole time they are doing it, they talk about "equality" "democracy" and "justice." The current sitting Pope has issued a call to action on the world stage, for every nation on the planet, and is insisting that we all embrace the "moral" dimensions of the technocratic radicalized climate agenda arising out of the dust of Marxist and socialist regimes that have shown what happens when a country wants to be the boss of the world. Francis likes to call it an "Encyclical On The Environment;" but if one were to check that out a little more carefully, it is hard to miss that this "encyclical" covers pretty well everything we do in our "modern" life today.

Perhaps that last verse in Revelation 17 has more significance than what we usually think it does? In the coming weeks and months, we are bound to hear a lot more about our apparent "interconnectedness and common good."  You can download a copy of The Pope's paper from The Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences called "Towards an Inclusive “Green Economy”: Rethinking Ethics and Economy in the Age of the Anthropocene."  It would appear that the moral dimensions of Bible prophecy, are indeed, inclusive of this "Encyclical On The Environment;" because everyone will be forced into it's agenda in the near future.

Quote

"The woman you saw is the important city which dominates the kings of the earth." (Rev 17:18, GW)

 

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BlessedMan

Where is this world-wide panic coming from? How does such panic get sown up into the very fabric of our society like this? Why are so many of our young people getting up every morning with no hope, and with a fear of almost everything they do or have done? The Climate Panic has seemingly opened the veritable Pandora's box. The resulting maelstrom that has been unleashed really seems like it has come from the pits of hell itself. I am reminded of the old hippie saying:  that "heaven begins on earth."  IMO so does hell.

What are these climate zealots doing to our children and young people? How did they radicalize as we now see them doing? Has anyone thought about how all of the climate tirade is affecting the world's young people, our children?

A very long time ago, right from the beginning, one thing has been very clear. Most of all of the climate panic tenets that are arising out of the Marxist dust of the past are also finding confluence at "church;" and are dramatically conflating a professed "moral high ground" with the "environment." Historically, almost every climategate rabbit trail we are seeing now leads to The Vatican. All of the "climate" conferences at The UN have a Pope somewhere in the wood work. It is getting harder by the day to miss out on this part of the equation.

It is time to ask the question about why the Church has wandered away from its original, scriptural objectives for "creation" and "the environment." The Church is on public record as having almost completely abandoning the original foundation in favor of adopting the so-called "science" of modernity, and the current political propoganda machine pushing the "New Green Deal" at us all. The current Pope is now the world's leading proponet of "climate" change, and according to Catholic Social Doctrine; there needs to be a global government to handle the "emergency."  Kind of reminds one of Rev 17:18

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BlessedMan

If you read the recent headlines about how Canada’s temperature is rising more than twice as fast as the average, you probably believed it, as I did at first, and concluded that Canada is facing a unique emergency.

But the same headline recently appeared for many other countries, all warming at twice the average: Australia, Finland, China, Sweden, Russia, Britain, all of Europe, Singapore and Japan. How can all these countries be warming twice as fast as the average? It brings to mind Garrison Keillor’s fictional Lake Wobegon, where “all the women are strong, all the men are good-looking, and all the children are above average.” Surprisingly, these media stories are neither a joke nor a mistake. As I first learned from Prof. Ross McKitrick of the University of Guelph, they are a basically trivial fact, turned into a frightening story by deceptively vague language. SOURCE

https://business.financialpost.com/opinion/opinion-lets-tell-the-whole-truth-about-average-global-temperature-rises

2/ Canada warming twice as fast as the rest of the world, report says
Canada is warming on average at a rate twice as fast as the rest of the world, a new scientific report indicates.

The federal government climate report also warns that changes are already evident in many parts of the country and are projected to intensify.

Canada's Arctic has seen the deepest impact and will continue to warm at more than double the global rate. SOURCE
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47754189

3/ Canada Is Warming 3 Times Faster Than The United States
Trevor Nace
Canada is warming, on average, three times faster than the United States, leading to more winter precipitation and heat waves.

The recently published study was conducted by Environment and Climate Change Canada and outlined how Canada's climate has changed since 1948. The report found that it is "virtually certain" that Canada's climate has warmed in the past century and a half. Of this warming, likely more than half is due to human activities. SOURCE
https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2019/04/08/canada-is-warming-3-times-faster-than-the-united-states/#36f70af679fb

4/ Russia is warming 2.5 times faster than the planet as a whole, on average, and the two-year “first stage” plan is an indication the government officially recognises this as a problem, even though Vladimir Putin denies human activity is the cause.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/05/russia-announces-plan-to-use-the-advantages-of-climate-change

5/ Russia Is Warming Disproportionately Fast, Environment Ministry Says

Climate change is heating Russia at a faster rate than the rest of the world, the country’s environment ministry has said in a draft report of environmental data for 2018.

Earlier reports have predicted that climate change will bring epidemics, drought and mass hunger to Russia if left unchecked. Melting permafrost in the Russian Arctic could release radioactive substances, the ministry has warned, while Siberian forests are increasingly prone to fires and the Far East to flash floods.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/09/04/russia-is-warming-disproportionately-fast-environment-ministry-says-a67145

6/ Britain warming faster than average
Britain's climate is warming faster than the global average quoted in the latest IPCC report, according to climate experts.

By Nick Collins, Science Correspondent

12:01AM BST 18 Oct 2013

Average annual temperatures in Britain have increased at a rate of about 0.18C per decade since 1950, compared with the 0.12C global surface temperature rise highlighted by the IPCC last month.

The speed of warming in the UK was highlighted in a policy note published on Friday by the ESRC Centre for Climate Change Economics and Policy, and the Grantham Research Institute at the London School of Economics. Source

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/globalwarming/10385878/Britain-warming-faster-than-average.html

7/ IPCC: Europe has been warming faster than the global average
UN climate science panel's full report shows how climate change could pan out differently across the many regions of the world
Europe has been warming faster than the global average over the last 30 years, the UN's new climate report reveals.

This week, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) released part one of its scientific report in full.
SOURCE

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/02/ipcc-europe-warming-faster-global-average

8/ Why Singapore is heating up twice as fast as the rest of the world

Extreme heat, combined with the island’s high humidity, could be life-threatening, the programme Why It Matters discovers.
SINGAPORE: The recent spells of hot weather that Singaporeans have been experiencing may not be just temporary heatwaves.

The island is heating up twice as fast as the rest of the world - at 0.25 degrees Celsius per decade - according to the Meteorological Service Singapore (MSS). It is almost 1 deg C hotter today than in the 1950s. SOURCE

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/cnainsider/singapore-hot-weather-urban-heat-effect-temperature-humidity-11115384

9/ Japan Data
Hot and Getting Hotter
Society Lifestyle Aug 7, 2014

On August 12, 2013, the city of Shimanto in Kōchi Prefecture recorded a temperature of 41.0°C, a new high for Japan. As the country heats up, temperatures are rising most rapidly in major cities; the capital Tokyo has seen a three-degree increase over the past century.
Japan Warming Faster than the Global Average

The temperature in Japan is rising significantly faster than the global average. The Japan Meteorological Agency’s 2012 Climate Change Report notes that, while the worldwide annual average temperature rose by 0.68°C over the past century, Japan’s average temperature climbed, though not always steadily, by 1.15°C in the same period.
SOURCE

https://www.nippon.com/en/features/h00067/hot-and-getting-hotter.html

10/ Sweden's temperature is rising more than TWICE as fast as the global average
According to experts, it's not that surprising that Sweden's temperature is rising faster than the global average. Photo: Anders Wiklund/TT
The average temperature in Sweden is rising more than twice as fast as the global average temperature, according to a new report by the country's national weather agency SMHI.

Between 1991 and 2018, Sweden's annual average temperature rose by 1.7C compared to average temperatures in pre-industrial times, which SMHI calculated using data from the years 1861-1890. In the same period the global average temperature only rose by 0.73C.
SOURCE

https://www.thelocal.se/20190401/swedens-temperature-rising-more-than-twice-as-fast-as-the-global-average

All of these media stories convey the same political message: because the country in question is warming at twice the (unspecified) average, that makes it doubly urgent for it to cut its greenhouse emissions quickly, compared with all the other countries. This politically manufactured emergency pressures frightened voters (and their even more frightened children) to accept whatever measures the government may propose to reduce CO2 emissions. It also enhances the budgets and influence of the country’s environmental politicians and bureaucrats.

If we are really to have “evidence-based policies,” as the Trudeau government has so often proclaimed, we need an honest discussion of the evidence. If governments want to use changes in average temperatures to justify higher carbon taxes and the like, they should tell us exactly what they mean by apparently simple terms like “average.”
SOURCE
https://business.financialpost.com/opinion/opinion-lets-tell-the-whole-truth-about-average-global-temperature-rises

12/ Australia temperatures rising faster than rest of the world: official report
By Jane Wardell

SYDNEY (Reuters) - Australia faces a rise in temperature of potentially more than 5 degrees Celsius (9 degrees Fahrenheit) by the end of the century, outpacing global warming worldwide, the country’s national science agency said on Tuesday. SOURCE

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-climatechange/australia-temperatures-rising-faster-than-rest-of-the-world-official-report-idUSKBN0L02P820150127

13/China Warming Faster Than Global Average
China has been warming faster than the global average and has seen its coastal sea level rise over several decades, according to a report published by the China Meteorological Administration on Tuesday.

From 1951 to 2016, the annual average land surface temperature in the country has increased by an average of 0.24 C every 10 years, nearly double the global average, according to the 2018 blue book on China's climate change. SOURCE

https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201804/04/WS5ac422bea3105cdcf6516245.html

Need I go on?

 

 

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pierrepaul

Fascinating; for decades American Adventists who leaned right envied their evangelical brethren who could unabashedly support every right wing policy on earth on the basis that the US Republicans were doing God's work; while the Adventist righties had to bite their tongues since Evangelicalism and the Moral Majority were working hand in hand for the "Sunday Law (TM)".

Now the Adventist righties have finally dreamed up a fantasy where they can pin the "Sunday Law (TM)" on the left, to justify and rationalize their making common cause with American evangelicalism.

Make no mistake about it. This alarmism had nothing to do with the pope, nothing to do with climate change, nothing to do with the Sunday Law; it's all about domestic USA politics.

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BlessedMan
4 minutes ago, pierrepaul said:

Fascinating; for decades American Adventists who leaned right envied their evangelical brethren who could unabashedly support every right wing policy on earth on the basis that the US Republicans were doing God's work; while the Adventist righties had to bite their tongues since Evangelicalism and the Moral Majority were working hand in hand for the "Sunday Law (TM)".

Now the Adventist righties have finally dreamed up a fantasy where they can pin the "Sunday Law (TM)" on the left, to justify and rationalize their making common cause with American evangelicalism.

Make no mistake about it. This alarmism had nothing to do with the pope, nothing to do with climate change, nothing to do with the Sunday Law; it's all about domestic USA politics.

Really? lol Im sorry, but I usually expect better from you. Your posting is usually very well-said, and has references. How do you manage to just seep away every reference above with this small statement, and not even give us a single reference? Sounds like Conspiracy 101 to me.

This is much more than "alarmism."

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pierrepaul

In the interests of full disclosure, I have long wearied of the Adventist sport of pope-watching/president watching, where every little inconsequential event in world history "proves" that the "Sunday Law (TM)" is just around the corner.

Sixty years ago it was the election of JFK and the horror of a Roman Catholic in the White House. Then it was Ronald Reagan and the rise of the "Moral Majority". At the same time it was Pope John Paul II and his charismatic globetrotting. Then it was the fall of the Iron Curtain and George Bush's "New World Order" and the "Kinder Gentler America". Then it was Clinton and his ties to organized labour that would usher in the "Sunday Law (TM)" under the guise of workers' legislation. Then it was the accession of "hardline" Pope Benedict XVI who was going to be tough enough to succeed where JPII failed (or rather where JPII never even tried). Surely with a hardline conservative in St. Peter's chair the Sunday Law would be on its way. Then Benedict resigned and an alleged "liberal" or "softy" took over St. Peter's chair. So the Sunday Law alarmists did a 180 pivot and proclaimed that now with a liberal in the Vatican, surely the Sunday Law is for real.

In the USA the conservative SdAs cheer on the Republican presidents (including the current office holder) as they appointed Catholic after Catholic to the Supreme Court - this was all good stuff since these Catholics are "conservatives" (SdA American conservatives believe they have greater affinity with Evangelical and Catholic conservatives than they do with fellow Adventists who don't vote the same way). To them the enemy isn't Catholicism, but Liberalism. And the "liberal" Adventists in the USA cheer on every advance by the secular progressives.

As for an alleged plot to create a Sunday Law, to me, this is just the latest in a series of examples of the boy crying wolf. My personal belief is that the will be no Sunday Law and that the Adventist movement badly misunderstands the mark of the beast, the seal of God and I'm beginning to think that we're probably off base on the Sabbath. My purpose in stating this is not to try to undermine anyone's beliefs or even to argue against traditional SdA understanding of these symbols, but merely to disclose to you and the participants in the forum where I stand so that you may judge my comments accordingly.

So no, I did not review the citations in the article posted upthread nor do I have any intention of doing so.

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BlessedMan
12 minutes ago, pierrepaul said:

In the interests of full disclosure, I have long wearied of the Adventist sport of pope-watching/president watching, where every little inconsequential event in world history "proves" that the "Sunday Law (TM)" is just around the corner.

Thank you for that reply. And thats all fair enough. You should know that I am by no stretch one of those "Pope-watcher" people you speak of. I have not set foot in any church for at least 5 years. I do not normally even care about anything the Pope does. But I did take the time to personally check out every single link and quote above. It cost me many hours of searching, and was no easy task because I am caring for a very ill loved one.  I got POd a while back over all this because of what the media climate propaganda is doing to our young people, including my own children, so I decided to jump into this to SEE FOR MYSELF what on earth is going on and where its coming from.

All of the above is ONLY what I have discovered and concluded for myself. I can assure you it has NOTHING to do with any Church stuff at all.  People's backs are already being put up against the wall over this and its only going to get worse. Im done with burying my head in the sand and pretending nothing is wrong, Young people all over the world are waking up every morning with no hope, and thats getting worse by the day. Its not my fault if there is a Pope under every doily. I don't control any of that narrative. Neither does the Adventist Church. To this day I continue to debate the verity of many of the "Pope Conspiracy" videos with some of my best friends who actually believe them. Thats all just adding to the whole thing another layer of difficulty thats almost impossible to counteract. Im sure you know what I mean, it seems like thats what you are talking about? Right now, it is a fact of life, the Pope is very much involved with all this.

Just remember, theres no such thing as a fake 3$ bill because there's no such thing as a real one.

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BlessedMan
27 minutes ago, pierrepaul said:

Then it was the fall of the Iron Curtain

You might want to check out Gorbchev's involvement with the "climate" change scene. Till next time.

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BlessedMan
43 minutes ago, pierrepaul said:

As for an alleged plot to create a Sunday Law, to me, this is just the latest in a series of examples of the boy crying wolf. My personal belief is that the will be no Sunday Law and that the Adventist movement badly misunderstands the mark of the beast, the seal of God and I'm beginning to think that we're probably off base on the Sabbath

I actually do understand and accept that many people feel this way. Thats No Problem for me at all. I hope you will post more here, I don't profess to know, nor do I want to know everything and Im sure there's stuff where I can stand corrected. So keep it coming. How else am I supposed to stay awake? :)

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Gustave
2 hours ago, pierrepaul said:

In the interests of full disclosure, I have long wearied of the Adventist sport of pope-watching/president watching, where every little inconsequential event in world history "proves" that the "Sunday Law (TM)" is just around the corner.

Sixty years ago it was the election of JFK and the horror of a Roman Catholic in the White House. Then it was Ronald Reagan and the rise of the "Moral Majority". At the same time it was Pope John Paul II and his charismatic globetrotting. Then it was the fall of the Iron Curtain and George Bush's "New World Order" and the "Kinder Gentler America". Then it was Clinton and his ties to organized labour that would usher in the "Sunday Law (TM)" under the guise of workers' legislation. Then it was the accession of "hardline" Pope Benedict XVI who was going to be tough enough to succeed where JPII failed (or rather where JPII never even tried). Surely with a hardline conservative in St. Peter's chair the Sunday Law would be on its way. Then Benedict resigned and an alleged "liberal" or "softy" took over St. Peter's chair. So the Sunday Law alarmists did a 180 pivot and proclaimed that now with a liberal in the Vatican, surely the Sunday Law is for real.

In the USA the conservative SdAs cheer on the Republican presidents (including the current office holder) as they appointed Catholic after Catholic to the Supreme Court - this was all good stuff since these Catholics are "conservatives" (SdA American conservatives believe they have greater affinity with Evangelical and Catholic conservatives than they do with fellow Adventists who don't vote the same way). To them the enemy isn't Catholicism, but Liberalism. And the "liberal" Adventists in the USA cheer on every advance by the secular progressives.

As for an alleged plot to create a Sunday Law, to me, this is just the latest in a series of examples of the boy crying wolf. My personal belief is that the will be no Sunday Law and that the Adventist movement badly misunderstands the mark of the beast, the seal of God and I'm beginning to think that we're probably off base on the Sabbath. My purpose in stating this is not to try to undermine anyone's beliefs or even to argue against traditional SdA understanding of these symbols, but merely to disclose to you and the participants in the forum where I stand so that you may judge my comments accordingly.

So no, I did not review the citations in the article posted upthread nor do I have any intention of doing so.

It seems almost as if Seventh-day Adventism can't be Seventh-day Adventism without  this obsession of the Sunday Obligation (for Catholics) being imposed on literally everyone else. Attending Saturday Mass fulfills the Sunday Obligation and I do not understand how SDA's could think that the Catholic Church would attack itself by outlawing it's own members for attending Mass on Saturday's when that's what they have been doing since way back. 

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BlessedMan
1 hour ago, Gustave said:

It seems almost as if Seventh-day Adventism can't be Seventh-day Adventism without  this obsession of the Sunday Obligation (for Catholics) being imposed on literally everyone else. Attending Saturday Mass fulfills the Sunday Obligation and I do not understand how SDA's could think that the Catholic Church would attack itself by outlawing it's own members for attending Mass on Saturday's when that's what they have been doing since way back. 

Thank you for pitching in Gustave. I don't think I have personally come right out and said anything like this. What I have been trying to do is to show that this is about much more than climate change and that the Pope is very much involved. I have heard this explanation you just posted before, and I don't personally believe thats all there is to it; but for this topic, I'll be sticking to climate change and the Pope's, as well as other's involvement. I would imagine you already know what Catholics do teach about the Sunday "obligation."

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Gustave

I'm out of the camp that says man can indeed be a poor steward of the planet by ruining the land and the water, man can also wreck havoc on eco-systems. I don't believe man can effect "climate change" to the degree that hyped in current popular culture. 

All I'm saying about the Sunday issue is that the Pope will never enforce all people attend Church on Sunday (to the exclusion of any other day of the week). This simply isn't going to happen. I understand and appreciate that Ellen White made multiple prophecies about this taking place but she also said other things that I think most could agree were short of factual. 

Pierrepaul posted some observations about the obsession within the denomination about a National Sunday Law where this concept is constantly imagined to be right around the corner and even worse the Baptists and Lutherans will be "in on it" when it happens. All I'm trying to do is offer some logic and reasoning as to why SDA's don't need to worry about the Catholic Church forcing them to refrain from going to Church on the day their conscience tells them they should - that's all. 

 

 

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pierrepaul
17 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

I got POd a while back over all this because of what the media climate propaganda is doing to our young people, including my own children, so I decided to jump into this to SEE FOR MYSELF what on earth is going on and where its coming from.

I'm conflicted about the whole climate change issue. I haven't the time, energy, resources or skill to conduct original research or even to review research done by others. I am well aware of pressures academics in any field have for their research to be in line with accepted wisdom. Perhaps things ought to be done to combat climate change. I don't know.

I grew up in the 1980s being told that the world was going to hell. At school we were taught that the Soviets and Americans would destroy the world with their bombs (do you remember the films "The Day After" and "Threads"?). At school we "studied" the population explosion and were taught that the world couldn't sustain more than about 5 billion humans. We read "1984" in English class and talked about a dystopian future.

Then I'd go to church, and instead of hearing a message of hope, we were told about persecution and having to run for the hills and being killed for the sabbath. We were taught about plagues and were told we'd probably never reach adulthood, for certainly Jesus was coming.

I have little regard for those who are scaring the kids about the future. I also have little regard for those older folks who are taking the Louis XV view of "après moi le déluge", who know trouble is coming but know that the current system will outlast their lives, so they don't care.

I still find value in the Adventist culture and certain Adventist teachings; both my and my wife's family are mostly Adventist and I do attend church regularly. But I have little patience for those who teach I'm going to hell for watching football on Saturday or who teach that persecution and the end of the world is just around the corner.

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BlessedMan
2 hours ago, Gustave said:

I understand and appreciate that Ellen White made multiple prophecies about this taking place

Its interesting that people keep mentioning "Ellen White" to me, because a) I have not mentioned her once, and b) I do not attend any church, and have not done so for at least 5 years.

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BlessedMan
2 hours ago, pierrepaul said:

Then I'd go to church, and instead of hearing a message of hope, we were told about persecution and having to run for the hills and being killed for the sabbath. We were taught about plagues and were told we'd probably never reach adulthood, for certainly Jesus was coming.

I reached a point where a) I was embarrassed to "invite" people to church because of that, and b) where I sometimes wished a given church WOULD talk about that in a Christ-centered way.

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BlessedMan
2 hours ago, pierrepaul said:

We were taught about plagues and were told we'd probably never reach adulthood, for

It IS just this very thing the so-called "climate" NGOs are doing now. One "climate" NGO has just been designated as terrorist/extremist and whats interesting is that as often as religious and non-religious alike used to decry Christians doing this, NOW they ARE almost all doing it themselves. AND this is why I have said, (one of the reasons) that "you heard FIRST about climate change at Church. I have done an enormous amount of research over months upon months over this climate change, so called. It all DOES keep pointing to a Pope, not always the current one, who essentially supports this very ideology. (yes, I know about all his "youth groups" etc, but facts ARE facts).

 

More later.

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Gustave
7 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

Its interesting that people keep mentioning "Ellen White" to me, because a) I have not mentioned her once, and b) I do not attend any church, and have not done so for at least 5 years.

Ellen was the one who provided the granular (allegedly inspired ) commentary claiming the Pope would unify the Protestant world under the banner of Catholicism to attack and persecute people who "keep the Saturday Sabbath". Would that be accurate? 

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BlessedMan
32 minutes ago, Gustave said:

Ellen was the one who provided the granular (allegedly inspired ) commentary claiming the Pope would unify the Protestant world under the banner of Catholicism to attack and persecute people who "keep the Saturday Sabbath". Would that be accurate? 

I think people continue to frame this whole subject area in some very wrong ways, usually in connection with their denominational contrivances. When I look at what she wrote, I see a woman who writes more about Jesus than anyone else.

For example, in the one book I am sure you are familiar with, The Great Controversy, on page 622 which is right in the middle of all the "last day events" she says:

"We should acquaint ourselves NOW with God by proving His promises."

I happened to visit a woman years ago in the hospital. She was dying of cancer. And she had that book opened to this page, and asked me to read that quote to her. THAT is what was on the mind of a woman who did die about 6 hours after this event.

I would think people still choose to preferentially remember what they want, in order to frame it in its worst possible light.

Ellen White also teaches that "we must learn to place the best possible construction upon the doubtful conduct of others..."  (Our High Calling, Chapter 221)

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B/W Photodude

I have noticed some doubts regarding the Sabbath issue as an endtime event. But then we have the pope leading the parade. What is surprising is seeing the climate change eclipsing the Sabbath as an issue. Should we be surprised? Not really. 

I fully believe that the issue of the Sabbath will be an endtime event as prophesied by Sister Ellen. However, is the world ready to go head to head over the Sabbath question? I also suspect not. So, for those asleep at the wheel, it is a no-brainer that Satan & Co. would try a different maneuver than what has been prophesied.

We have climate change believers and even have SDA churches and schools backing it all up. However, for many years, comments have been made how we need a day of rest for the earth to also rest. This even occurred back during the first big energy crises in the early 70s, which some may not remember.

I believe that even though Satan sees the prophesies and in many ways is almost powerless to alter his trajectory thru them, he will have some ability to cloud or obscure the events and meaning of events. And issue like the Sabbath can break upon the sleeping virgins who will arise to find they have no oil in their lamps.  The Sabbath issue will be an after thought to accomplish other goals. As I read GC, I find that Sister Ellen wrote that Satan impersonating Jesus will make the case that Sabbath keepers must be done away with as they disturb the peace that he wishes to bring to the earth.

In the endtime, Satan will have powers to deceive the world. And he will produce some very dazzling deceiving displays of miracles. This is even written in Revelation where it says, "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men," Revelation 13:13

However, this doesn't mean he also does not do minor things to the environment. Given that many scientists do not believe in global warming, but many do, perhaps global warming could actually be a reality. However, I would offer that it is not from correctable human behavior, but a behind the scenes manipulation of the environment by Satan himself.

I have, obviously no proof of this and it is NOT an article of faith you must accept. Just me, twirling things around in my head!

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B/W Photodude
On 1/14/2020 at 4:28 PM, pierrepaul said:

In the interests of full disclosure, I have long wearied of the Adventist sport of pope-watching/president watching, where every little inconsequential event in world history "proves" that the "Sunday Law (TM)" is just around the corner.

Watching what is going on is not just an Adventist sport. Many more watch the popes and other rulers to get a sense of what is going on in the world. I sort of watch and try to guess the next pope. Francis was a surprise. Benedict was not. And I am starting to get a good impression of the next pope, and you may be surprised who he is and where he is from.

Perhaps when the time comes, such as when the cardinals are sequestered to pick a new pope, we can have a secret "election" ourselves and one person collects the names and when the new pope is announced, we can see who came up with the right one! So, get busy following Catholic websites such as the Vatican news and others!

Sister Ellen did say that we should be good students of history and world events.  But I agree, some carry the minor events too far in that every act must be prophesied some where in the Bible. Those things also do weary me.

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B/W Photodude
On 1/14/2020 at 7:36 PM, Gustave said:

I do not understand how SDA's could think that the Catholic Church would attack itself by outlawing it's own members for attending Mass on Saturday's when that's what they have been doing since way back. 

Do keep in mind that Sabbath ends at sundown.It has been dark whenever I went to Sat eve mass.

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B/W Photodude
2 hours ago, Gustave said:

Ellen was the one who provided the granular (allegedly inspired ) commentary claiming the Pope would unify the Protestant world under the banner of Catholicism to attack and persecute people who "keep the Saturday Sabbath". Would that be accurate? 

As I previously posted, the Protestant churches will be working towards unity with the Roman church. But the real drive to attack and persecute Sabbath keepers will be inspired by Satan himself impersonating Jesus. Tony Campolo made the argument that the reformation is over. It is also said that one of the evangelists, Kenneth Copeland, is also working at bringing Protestants back to Rome.

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