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Pope Francis 2020 plan is to rally Nations behind Climate change and Sunday law

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Gustave
17 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

... and so on.

This is why the Sabbath starts at sundown in SDA circles and in the Jewish faith.

"And the evening and the morning were the" 1st, 2nd, etc day is a Hebrew Idiom that simply means that the day was understood to be over at sunrise the following day. God completed what was started during the daylight period and this was followed by morning - when morning came it closed out the prior day by ushering in a new day. The "Babylonians" started their day on the evening prior. What I'm saying can be seen / understood by looking at Leviticus 23:

Verses 26 -32: And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord. And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the Lord your God. For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath

So, the day of Atonement was on the tenth day of the seventh month HOWEVER it was to be observed between the evening of the 9th day through to the evening of the 10th day. "IT" [ day of Atonement] was to be unto the Israelite's, a sabbath of rest. This was specific to the day of Atonement as can be seen by looking at Verse 3:

"six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; Ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord".  

This is confirmed by Leviticus 7,15 & Leviticus 7, 16 which states that:

Leviticus 7,15
And the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings for thanksgiving SHALL BE EATEN THE SAME DAY IT WAS OFFERED; HE SHALL NOT LEAVE ANY OF IT UNTIL THE MORNING.

Leviticus 7,16
BUT if the sacrifice of his offering be a VOW or a voluntary offering, it shall be eaten the same day that he offereth his sacrifice AND ON THE MORROW ALSO the remainder of it shall be eaten.

These texts are saying that to be in compliance with the Peace Offering for thanksgiving the Penitent was required to eat the sacrifice on the same day it was killed and had UNTIL the next morning to eat it and still be in compliance - furthermore, the next verse makes it clear that the vow or voluntary sacrifice could be eaten on the same day it was offered AND "ON THE MORROW" [ or next day the remaining could be eaten ].

If one made a sacrifice on the 3rd day at 11:30AM and had to eat it THE SAME DAY it was offered AND had until sunrise of the 4th day to complete consuming the sacrifice the evening of the 3rd day belonged or was part of the 3rd day all the way up into the morning or sunrise of the 4th day. 

Further clarification is given in Exodus 16 where Moses tells the Children of Israel "on the 6th day":

"This is that which the Lord has said, TO MORROW is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord

They had until morning to prepare it how they wanted it

"and they laid it up till the morning......"

thus "the evening and the morning, the 6th day" and Moses says:

And Moses said, eat that today FOR TODAY [morning of the 7th day] is a sabbath unto the Lord....." 

Numbers 11,31
And there went forth a wind from the Lord, and it brought quails from the sea, and let them fall beside the camp, about a day’s journey on this side and a day’s journey on the other side, round about the camp, and about two cubits above the face of the earth. And the people rose all that day, and all night, and all the next day, and gathered the quails; he who gathered least gathered ten homers; and they spread them out for themselves all around the camp

As you can see "all night" belonged to the day proceeding it - "all night" was not part of the next day. 

Also a New Testament reference for your consideration.

Acts 27, 27

When the fourteenth night had come, as we were drifting across the sea of A′dria, about midnight the sailors suspected that they were nearing land. So they sounded and found twenty fathoms; a little farther on they sounded again and found fifteen fathoms. And fearing that we might run on the rocks, they let out four anchors from the stern, and prayed for day to come. And as the sailors were seeking to escape from the ship, and had lowered the boat into the sea, under pretense of laying out anchors from the bow, Paul said to the centurion and the soldiers, “Unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved.” Then the soldiers cut away the ropes of the boat, and let it go.

As day was
about to dawn, Paul urged them all to take some food, saying, “Today is the fourteenth day that you have continued in suspense and without food, having taken nothing.Therefore I urge you to take some food; it will give you strength, since not a hair is to perish from the head of any of you.” And when he had said this, he took bread, and giving thanks to God in the presence of all he broke it and began to eat.

"When the 14th night had come" it was STILL understood to be part of the 14th day [not the start of the 15th].

The Jews admit that they "traditionally" observe the sabbath starting on the evening of the 6th day because they had the authority to make such binding laws. This is how Judaism worked and I'm not slandering it in the least. I have ZERO problems of SDA's Devotion of the Sabbath, more power to you. I'm just saying you may not know how you are celebrating the Sabbath is part "Tradition". 

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Gustave
18 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

You can read in the literature of many evangelical churches literature and they will adhere to 9 of 10 commandments. Some will say to do what you want with the fourth or that they are done away with, although no one seems to be charitable with murderers, thieves, etc. The fourth commandment is like the seal of God in the commandments with His stamp of authority as Creator. It is also His time to spend with His people. Violating the fourth commandment is the one that will be the commandment of debate in the end times. Oh! BTW, Satan hates all of the commandments!

The Catholic understanding of the Ten Commandments is not the same as the Evangelical Churches understand it. The Catholic understanding is more similar to the way SDA's see it with one particular difference. 

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B/W Photodude
21 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

I find it hard to go for internet stuff that wants to pick on Greta like this. She certainly is not the problem, and finding little scraps of "hyppocrisy" in her really gives the whole thing a totally unfair view. (thats nothing to do with you personally, I know why you posted this). Im saying that about whoever cooked that "photograph."

When you put yourself out in the public eye you will attract attention in different ways. I agree with leaving the kids of public figures, such as Chelsea Clinton when she was a minor and Barron Trump out of the public discussion. Unfortunately, lefties have gone after children of public figures in some very nasty ways. 

However, Greta has taken an unpopular position and inserted herself into the public arena so she gets to endure the opposing viewpoints.  I suspect she may be used for that very reason, to be able to say what she does then have others say you are beating up on a little girl and therefore you can not disagree with her!

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B/W Photodude
4 hours ago, Gustave said:

The Catholic understanding is more similar to the way SDA's see it with one particular difference. 

Oh, there are more than one difference between Catholics and SDAs regarding the 10 commandments.

You seem comfortable with people changing things as noted in your previous post.

Catholics did eliminate the 2nd commandment which allows you to keep all your statutes and and other images of saints which get prayed to and from which miracles seem to occur.

The fourth commandment was gutted and moved to the third spot in the order. Gone is the reference to the specific day of rest and the authority by which God claims His right to be worshipped on the day of His designation. You only have a general reference for keeping "a" sabbath day.

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BlessedMan
13 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

However, Greta has taken an unpopular position and inserted herself into the public arena so she gets to endure the opposing viewpoints.  I suspect she may be used for that very reason, to be able to say what she does then have others say you are beating up on a little girl and therefore you can not disagree with her!

I agree, totally. There are some rather dubious "psychological profiles" being exercised here, for sure. Its called social engineering.  I guess thats the only reason I even say anything re "picking on Greta" as its not directed at you, in any way - you just happened to bring up the subject,  but I am concerned at what others, (adults) are doing to her. As you know I have been posting on another web site about all things "climate change" and I am careful to not go there to the place where I am criticising her, personally. I have no problem in myself or others questioning the ideas she puts forth. Rebel News Media (so-called) is one that I think of. I publically called them out for their garbage reporting that seemed so delighted with catching the poor girl with a few scraps of single-use plastics, or whatever.  People attack her personally and it not only concerns me about what the adults who are "guiding" or "coaching"  her, (I use the words loosely), but also what the hard-core critics are doing to her with such criticisms that attack her personally.

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B/W Photodude
5 hours ago, Gustave said:

"And the evening and the morning were the" 1st, 2nd, etc day is a Hebrew Idiom that simply means that the day was understood to be over at sunrise the following day.

The "Babylonians" started their day on the evening prior. What I'm saying can be seen / understood by looking at Leviticus 23:

Sorry, it is not an idiom, it is the way it is written in the Bible. The Babylonians may also have started their days at the evening, but then that in no way negayes the Bible instructions that the Sabbath starts on the evening of the sixth day at sundown.

From the Hebrew Bible

And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night, and it was evening and it was morning, one day.

וַיִּקְרָ֨א אֱלֹהִ֤ים | לָאוֹר֙ י֔וֹם וְלַח֖שֶׁךְ קָ֣רָא לָ֑יְלָה 
וַֽיְהִי־עֶ֥רֶב וַֽיְהִי־בֹ֖קֶר י֥וֹם אֶחָֽד:

So, I take my bible as it reads and not some "explanation" of how culture changed the idioms.

BTW, your argument is getting ready to blowup!

5 hours ago, Gustave said:

It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, >>from even unto even,<< shall ye celebrate your sabbath

Boom! Just blew up. from even unto even!

5 hours ago, Gustave said:

The Jews admit that they "traditionally" observe the sabbath starting on the evening of the 6th day because they had the authority to make such binding laws. This is how Judaism worked and I'm not slandering it in the least. 

I do not recall ever hearing anyone Jewish claiming to be able to make binding laws changing days and times. So, not buying this argument either.

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BlessedMan
4 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

I do not recall ever hearing anyone Jewish claiming to be able to make binding laws changing days and times. So, not buying this argument either.

I agree with the above, for sure. I try not to get into a lot of "original language" stuff because sometimes its so open to interpretation" that its literally a closed subject. One of the best ways to decide what day is the official Sabbath day, is to simply look at what day was the "preparation day." It sure was not ever Saturday or Sunday! People need to get back to the CONTEXT of verses instead of isolating them into a "better" interpretation. Without the Bible's EXPRESS context, it means very little, and in fact, is NOT Biblical, just because the person "quotes" scripture. Thats kind of like thinking if you say the word Jesus, you can do whatever you want after saying that!

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Mat 7:21)

Quote

"Jesus exposed those people who sounded religious but had no personal relationship with him. On "judgment day" only our relationship with Christ—our acceptance of him as Savior and our obedience to him—will matter. Many people think that if they are "good" people and say religious things, they will be rewarded with eternal life. In reality, faith in Christ is what will count at the judgment." (Life Application Notes re Mat 7:21).

That means not everyone who says the word Jesus...the NAME of Jesus is different than the word Jesus. The NAME of Jesus is His character. The NAME of Jesus is in the character of His people. The NAME of Jesus is not the word Jesus.

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BlessedMan
1 hour ago, B/W Photodude said:

You only have a general reference for keeping "a" sabbath day.

It is my current understanding that one of the more revered apologists, Jimmy Akin, (Catholic version of EGW?) likely has not listened to himself talk about this subject lately. Here is what he says about why we dont have to keep the Sabbath on the seventh-day: Akin's appeal goes FIRST to the "authority" of the RCC
 

Quote

 

The Catechism of Trent states: The other commandments of the Decalogue are precepts of the natural law, obligatory at all times and unalterable. Hence, after the abrogation of the Law of Moses, all the commandments contained in the [Ten Commandments] are observed by Christians, not indeed because their observance is commanded by Moses, but because they are in conformity with nature which dictates obedience to them. This commandment about the observance of the Sabbath, on the other hand, considered as to the time appointed for its fulfillment, is not fixed and unalterable, but susceptible of change, and belongs not to the moral, but the ceremonial law. Neither is it a principle of the natural law; we are not instructed by nature to give external worship to God on that day, rather than on any other.

And in fact the Sabbath was kept holy only from the time of the liberation of the people of Israel from the bondage of Pharaoh. The observance of the Sabbath was to be abrogated at the same time as the other Hebrew rites and ceremonies, that is, at the death of Christ (3:4:4). Consequently, observing the Sabbath isn’t required even for Jewish people after the death of Christ, and it was never required for Gentiles (see Day 322). Paul states: “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath” (Col. 2:17)—the annual feasts, the monthly new moons, and the weekly sabbaths being the three types of holy days on the Jewish calendar. The moral principles underlying the Sabbath—devoting adequate time to rest and worship—remain binding, so the first-century Church began honoring the first day of the Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10; cf. 1 Cor. 16:2), since it was on this day the Lord Jesus was resurrected (Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1, John 20:1). Thus Christians observe Sunday rather than the Jewish Sabbath.

Akin, Jimmy. A Daily Defense: 365 Days ( plus one) to Becoming a Better Apologist . Catholic Answers Press. Kindle Edition.

 

In another topic, from the same book, Akin says the following:  

Quote

 

Finally, the Gospels are explicit that Jesus was crucified on a Friday, which was referred to as the “day of preparation” when people got ready for the Sabbath (Matt. 27:62; Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:14, 31, 42).

Akin, Jimmy. A Daily Defense: 365 Days ( plus one) to Becoming a Better Apologist . Catholic Answers Press. Kindle Edition.

 

So, the Catholics do admit that the preparation day IS and always WAS Friday. Which is, of course, correct. They also cede that the seventh-day Sabbath WAS Saturday, or the 7th day. Soooo....if THAT Sabbath was "changed" then how come those other days didn't change too?

Methinks a few more "steps" are needed to become that "better apologist."  Can anyone in the room tell us what the missing piece is here?

 

 

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Gustave
36 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

Sorry, it is not an idiom, it is the way it is written in the Bible. The Babylonians may also have started their days at the evening, but then that in no way negayes the Bible instructions that the Sabbath starts on the evening of the sixth day at sundown.

From the Hebrew Bible

And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night, and it was evening and it was morning, one day.

וַיִּקְרָ֨א אֱלֹהִ֤ים | לָאוֹר֙ י֔וֹם וְלַח֖שֶׁךְ קָ֣רָא לָ֑יְלָה 
וַֽיְהִי־עֶ֥רֶב וַֽיְהִי־בֹ֖קֶר י֥וֹם אֶחָֽד:

So, I take my bible as it reads and not some "explanation" of how culture changed the idioms.

BTW, your argument is getting ready to blowup!

Boom! Just blew up. from even unto even!

I do not recall ever hearing anyone Jewish claiming to be able to make binding laws changing days and times. So, not buying this argument either.

Your last sentence 1st:

Matthew 23, 2-3. The Jew saying this was Jesus. 

And if you would care for a more modern example of essentially the same thing I offer: 

"Second, the talmudic innovation of reckoning a day from the eve before suggests a larger view of life. While we may never know what prompted the Rabbis to reconfigure the day, the existential benefit is indisputable. By inaugurating the celebration of Shabbat or a festival at sunset, they have framed a stretch of time that can be ritually filled to heighten the religious experience. At the other end of the day, an eventide that does not mark a boundary between sacred and profane time would tend to be anti-climactic, an appendage of time to be endured till sunrise catches us unawares. To celebrate from sunset to sunset is to experience the passage of time each day consciously and bravely".  Ismar Schorsch / http://www.jtsa.edu/the-day-begins-with-night

 

"Thus, the Sabbath in biblical times began on Saturday morning and ended on Sunday morning, just like any other day, and the day continued to begin at daybreak until the Jews changed the practice during the Babylonian exile around 550 B.C.E. due to the influence of the surrounding culture. How did the women react to the change in the time for starting the Sabbath?" https://booksnthoughts.com/why-women-must-start-shabbat-before-men/

 

The meaning in Genesis is;  God created such and such, evening came than morning followed - the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. day. 

 

Creation action / event followed by an evening and a morning (THE 1st Day).

 

Leviticus 7,15  states that the sacrifice had to be consumed on the day it was offered AND that the clock for "THAT DAY" ran out at sunrise of the following day. Under your understanding at sundown of the day the Sacrifice was offered the next day would have already started - the Scriptures refute that understanding. 

This has come as somewhat shocking to you? 

 

 

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Gustave
24 minutes ago, BlessedMan said:

It is my current understanding that one of the more revered apologists, Jimmy Akin, (Catholic version of EGW?) likely has not listened to himself talk about this subject lately. Here is what he says about why we dont have to keep the Sabbath on the seventh-day: Akin's appeal goes FIRST to the "authority" of the RCC
 

In another topic, from the same book, Akin says the following:  

So, the Catholics do admit that the preparation day IS and always WAS Friday. Which is, of course, correct. They also cede that the seventh-day Sabbath WAS Saturday, or the 7th day. Soooo....if THAT Sabbath was "changed" then how come those other days didn't change too?

Methinks a few more "steps" are needed to become that "better apologist."  Can anyone in the room tell us what the missing piece is here?

 

 

Trent says that man is not commanded by Nature to observe a Sabbath on the 7th day [ and this is most certainly true ]. Man is certainly not commanded by Nature to observe a day of atonement on the tenth day of the 7th month starting on evening of the 9th day. This is really not that complicated. 

The New Testament is explicit that God, by Divine Fiat, declared all foods clean (Mark 7, 19). In just as clear of language the Sabbath was said to be fulfilled by Christ and therefore "not obligatory" for Christians (Galations 4, 10 / Colossians 2, 16-17). However, according to the New Testament, it WAS A SIN for Christians NOT TO ASSEMBLE THEMSELVES together. I think most SDA's wouldn't eat a BLT because they think God doesn't want them too because it's "unclean" and spelled out not to do it in Leviticus. So, just like the clear instruction about foods in Mark 7 the issue of the Sabbath is treated the same way. 

 

Hebrews 10,24:  And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

That says that the sin itself is Christians not assembling THEMSELVES together. There is only one day the New Testament says that Christians assembled "themselves" together on. I don't think the Bible could much clearer that its a real mistake to think you're getting extra credit for observing any of Judaism's Liturgical Feasts. 

 

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BlessedMan
1 hour ago, Gustave said:

That says that the sin itself is Christians not assembling THEMSELVES together.

Hello Gustave. Thank you for this reply. I am quite happy to see you back on the forum with us firing a few shots of your own. :)

I have to take a short pause, as other duties call. Ill give this all some prayer and thought, till next time. take care my friend. :)

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phkrause
14 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

I think some people only want to read about "their" day. And thats what misses the whole point of the text. It says "the Sabbath of The Lord Thy God."  I had someone earlier this week say to me "Can you tell me more about "your" Sabbath; and that was the first thing I said to them, that it isn't "my Sabbath;" it's God's.

Amen!!!

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phkrause
9 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Unfortunately, lefties have gone after children of public figures in some very nasty ways. 

And so have the righties!!!! Both sides are wrong period!!!!

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Gustave
11 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

Hello Gustave. Thank you for this reply. I am quite happy to see you back on the forum with us firing a few shots of your own. :)

I have to take a short pause, as other duties call. Ill give this all some prayer and thought, till next time. take care my friend. :)

Its all good, the shots are out of love :) 

I've been crazy busy myself and plan to be on and off the board as time permits for about two more months. 

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Gustave
15 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Oh, there are more than one difference between Catholics and SDAs regarding the 10 commandments.

You seem comfortable with people changing things as noted in your previous post.

Catholics did eliminate the 2nd commandment which allows you to keep all your statutes and and other images of saints which get prayed to and from which miracles seem to occur.

The fourth commandment was gutted and moved to the third spot in the order. Gone is the reference to the specific day of rest and the authority by which God claims His right to be worshipped on the day of His designation. You only have a general reference for keeping "a" sabbath day.

It's just numbering and worthy of note to mention Luther didn't seem to have much of a problem in the way it was done.  https://www.sundaysoftware.com/ten/number.htm

You like the way Origin numbered them as opposed to Augustine - that works for me. 

Jews at the time of Christ "prayed for the dead" and still do. Christians "prayed for the dead" two hundred years before Christianity was legalized in Rome. At the time when Christians were being hunted down, tortured, fed to the lions these same Christians were "praying for the dead".

I'll concede that the Sadducee's DIDN'T pray for the dead  as they believed the dead were dead and that there wasn't going to be any resurrection, no such things as "spirits" or "angels" either. I'll grant that however you should know that the early Christians didn't take their theological training from Sadducee's who Christ absolutely corrected - on all three of their errors.  

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Gregory Matthews

On the time for the Sabbath to begin, as has been mentioned, SDAs trace this back to the Creation story.  As stated, all six days in that story seem to begin the day with sundown on what we today call the preceding day.   

Gustave is correct when he stated that the phrase "evening and morning" is a Hebrew Idiom.  However, I will suggest that he is not correct in his identification of that idiom as meaning that the day began with the morning light.  SDA scholars of the Hebrew and Aramaic will suggest that the idiom involved in those passages in Genesis tell us that the period of time was  24-hour day, as we would call it today, as opposed to it being a day of some metaphorical length, such as a year.

Gustave's reference to Leviticus 23, takes me to the 5th verse which tells us that the Jewish religious holy days began and ended at evening.  However, as I have said, SDA observance is not based upon Jewish law.   Rather it is based upon the Creation story as found in Genesis.  It should be noted that the SDA observance of the Sabbath is not even closely related to the Jewish observance of the Sabbath.

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Gregory Matthews

I am not an expert in either the Geek, or Hebrew languages of the Bible.  I have some knowledge, but it is limited.

The following website addresses that issue that I mentioned and does it better that I did.

 https://www.gotquestions.org/genesis-days.html

NOTE:  The above website provides additional sources of information that are helpful.  It may be asked as to whether or not the above website is a SDA website.  Due to the fact that it clearly states that the SDA practice related to Sabbath keeping is not a Christian practice today I do not believe that it is a SDA website.

 

 

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Gustave

"The Lord's Passover" begins at twilight of the 14th day of the 1st month. The Sabbath is, according to Scripture, the 7th day of the week. As Leviticus 7, 15 says the evening belong to the day that proceeded it - it does not start the new day. 

Jewish Scholars have conceded this as has other Christian Scholars. In Judaism there is an understanding of Sacred Tradition, it is by Sacred Tradition (& not Scripture) that Jews began observing the 7th day Sabbath starting at sunset of the 6th day. It's a Babylonian Talmudic thing. 

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BlessedMan
On 1/19/2020 at 8:10 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

On the time for the Sabbath to begin, as has been mentioned, SDAs trace this back to the Creation story.  As stated, all six days in that story seem to begin the day with sundown on what we today call the preceding day.   

Well, IDK if anyone will fault me for this or not, but I have to say that some time ago, I decided I had no real way to solve this issue. Over the years I have consistently kept the Sabbath with just one rule as I couldnt handle the constant bickering about whether it was "right" or "wrong" to keep the Sabbath, with all the many rights and wrongs;  now its simple:  by just looking out my window, seeing if the sun looked like it was setting, and if it looked like It was setting, thats when I started the sabbath. Thats still "the Sabbath day "of the Lord Thy God," as far as I know.

There is no text in scripture which switches Sunday over to the Sabbath, or changes them around somehow.  The seven days of the week have always been the same. It was never the case Sabbath was changed, only Sunday

If the RCCs think they would like to change the one day, then other days and times would have to change too. IDK but as far as I know, RCCs if they feel so strongly about "keeping Sunday," then  according to the Bible; they can only call it "Sunday keeping,"  they can't call it "keeping the sabbath"; for Saturday is keeping the Sabbath so as Saturday, IS and WAS the "seventh day Sabbath" - not of The Adventist Church, but "of The Lord Thy God.;" this is what Adventists keep and why

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