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Pope Francis 2020 plan is to rally Nations behind Climate change and Sunday law

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Gustave
17 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

... and so on.

This is why the Sabbath starts at sundown in SDA circles and in the Jewish faith.

"And the evening and the morning were the" 1st, 2nd, etc day is a Hebrew Idiom that simply means that the day was understood to be over at sunrise the following day. God completed what was started during the daylight period and this was followed by morning - when morning came it closed out the prior day by ushering in a new day. The "Babylonians" started their day on the evening prior. What I'm saying can be seen / understood by looking at Leviticus 23:

Verses 26 -32: And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord. And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the Lord your God. For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath

So, the day of Atonement was on the tenth day of the seventh month HOWEVER it was to be observed between the evening of the 9th day through to the evening of the 10th day. "IT" [ day of Atonement] was to be unto the Israelite's, a sabbath of rest. This was specific to the day of Atonement as can be seen by looking at Verse 3:

"six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; Ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord".  

This is confirmed by Leviticus 7,15 & Leviticus 7, 16 which states that:

Leviticus 7,15
And the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings for thanksgiving SHALL BE EATEN THE SAME DAY IT WAS OFFERED; HE SHALL NOT LEAVE ANY OF IT UNTIL THE MORNING.

Leviticus 7,16
BUT if the sacrifice of his offering be a VOW or a voluntary offering, it shall be eaten the same day that he offereth his sacrifice AND ON THE MORROW ALSO the remainder of it shall be eaten.

These texts are saying that to be in compliance with the Peace Offering for thanksgiving the Penitent was required to eat the sacrifice on the same day it was killed and had UNTIL the next morning to eat it and still be in compliance - furthermore, the next verse makes it clear that the vow or voluntary sacrifice could be eaten on the same day it was offered AND "ON THE MORROW" [ or next day the remaining could be eaten ].

If one made a sacrifice on the 3rd day at 11:30AM and had to eat it THE SAME DAY it was offered AND had until sunrise of the 4th day to complete consuming the sacrifice the evening of the 3rd day belonged or was part of the 3rd day all the way up into the morning or sunrise of the 4th day. 

Further clarification is given in Exodus 16 where Moses tells the Children of Israel "on the 6th day":

"This is that which the Lord has said, TO MORROW is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord

They had until morning to prepare it how they wanted it

"and they laid it up till the morning......"

thus "the evening and the morning, the 6th day" and Moses says:

And Moses said, eat that today FOR TODAY [morning of the 7th day] is a sabbath unto the Lord....." 

Numbers 11,31
And there went forth a wind from the Lord, and it brought quails from the sea, and let them fall beside the camp, about a day’s journey on this side and a day’s journey on the other side, round about the camp, and about two cubits above the face of the earth. And the people rose all that day, and all night, and all the next day, and gathered the quails; he who gathered least gathered ten homers; and they spread them out for themselves all around the camp

As you can see "all night" belonged to the day proceeding it - "all night" was not part of the next day. 

Also a New Testament reference for your consideration.

Acts 27, 27

When the fourteenth night had come, as we were drifting across the sea of A′dria, about midnight the sailors suspected that they were nearing land. So they sounded and found twenty fathoms; a little farther on they sounded again and found fifteen fathoms. And fearing that we might run on the rocks, they let out four anchors from the stern, and prayed for day to come. And as the sailors were seeking to escape from the ship, and had lowered the boat into the sea, under pretense of laying out anchors from the bow, Paul said to the centurion and the soldiers, “Unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved.” Then the soldiers cut away the ropes of the boat, and let it go.

As day was
about to dawn, Paul urged them all to take some food, saying, “Today is the fourteenth day that you have continued in suspense and without food, having taken nothing.Therefore I urge you to take some food; it will give you strength, since not a hair is to perish from the head of any of you.” And when he had said this, he took bread, and giving thanks to God in the presence of all he broke it and began to eat.

"When the 14th night had come" it was STILL understood to be part of the 14th day [not the start of the 15th].

The Jews admit that they "traditionally" observe the sabbath starting on the evening of the 6th day because they had the authority to make such binding laws. This is how Judaism worked and I'm not slandering it in the least. I have ZERO problems of SDA's Devotion of the Sabbath, more power to you. I'm just saying you may not know how you are celebrating the Sabbath is part "Tradition". 

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Gustave
18 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

You can read in the literature of many evangelical churches literature and they will adhere to 9 of 10 commandments. Some will say to do what you want with the fourth or that they are done away with, although no one seems to be charitable with murderers, thieves, etc. The fourth commandment is like the seal of God in the commandments with His stamp of authority as Creator. It is also His time to spend with His people. Violating the fourth commandment is the one that will be the commandment of debate in the end times. Oh! BTW, Satan hates all of the commandments!

The Catholic understanding of the Ten Commandments is not the same as the Evangelical Churches understand it. The Catholic understanding is more similar to the way SDA's see it with one particular difference. 

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B/W Photodude
21 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

I find it hard to go for internet stuff that wants to pick on Greta like this. She certainly is not the problem, and finding little scraps of "hyppocrisy" in her really gives the whole thing a totally unfair view. (thats nothing to do with you personally, I know why you posted this). Im saying that about whoever cooked that "photograph."

When you put yourself out in the public eye you will attract attention in different ways. I agree with leaving the kids of public figures, such as Chelsea Clinton when she was a minor and Barron Trump out of the public discussion. Unfortunately, lefties have gone after children of public figures in some very nasty ways. 

However, Greta has taken an unpopular position and inserted herself into the public arena so she gets to endure the opposing viewpoints.  I suspect she may be used for that very reason, to be able to say what she does then have others say you are beating up on a little girl and therefore you can not disagree with her!

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B/W Photodude
4 hours ago, Gustave said:

The Catholic understanding is more similar to the way SDA's see it with one particular difference. 

Oh, there are more than one difference between Catholics and SDAs regarding the 10 commandments.

You seem comfortable with people changing things as noted in your previous post.

Catholics did eliminate the 2nd commandment which allows you to keep all your statutes and and other images of saints which get prayed to and from which miracles seem to occur.

The fourth commandment was gutted and moved to the third spot in the order. Gone is the reference to the specific day of rest and the authority by which God claims His right to be worshipped on the day of His designation. You only have a general reference for keeping "a" sabbath day.

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BlessedMan
13 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

However, Greta has taken an unpopular position and inserted herself into the public arena so she gets to endure the opposing viewpoints.  I suspect she may be used for that very reason, to be able to say what she does then have others say you are beating up on a little girl and therefore you can not disagree with her!

I agree, totally. There are some rather dubious "psychological profiles" being exercised here, for sure. Its called social engineering.  I guess thats the only reason I even say anything re "picking on Greta" as its not directed at you, in any way - you just happened to bring up the subject,  but I am concerned at what others, (adults) are doing to her. As you know I have been posting on another web site about all things "climate change" and I am careful to not go there to the place where I am criticising her, personally. I have no problem in myself or others questioning the ideas she puts forth. Rebel News Media (so-called) is one that I think of. I publically called them out for their garbage reporting that seemed so delighted with catching the poor girl with a few scraps of single-use plastics, or whatever.  People attack her personally and it not only concerns me about what the adults who are "guiding" or "coaching"  her, (I use the words loosely), but also what the hard-core critics are doing to her with such criticisms that attack her personally.

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B/W Photodude
5 hours ago, Gustave said:

"And the evening and the morning were the" 1st, 2nd, etc day is a Hebrew Idiom that simply means that the day was understood to be over at sunrise the following day.

The "Babylonians" started their day on the evening prior. What I'm saying can be seen / understood by looking at Leviticus 23:

Sorry, it is not an idiom, it is the way it is written in the Bible. The Babylonians may also have started their days at the evening, but then that in no way negayes the Bible instructions that the Sabbath starts on the evening of the sixth day at sundown.

From the Hebrew Bible

And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night, and it was evening and it was morning, one day.

וַיִּקְרָ֨א אֱלֹהִ֤ים | לָאוֹר֙ י֔וֹם וְלַח֖שֶׁךְ קָ֣רָא לָ֑יְלָה 
וַֽיְהִי־עֶ֥רֶב וַֽיְהִי־בֹ֖קֶר י֥וֹם אֶחָֽד:

So, I take my bible as it reads and not some "explanation" of how culture changed the idioms.

BTW, your argument is getting ready to blowup!

5 hours ago, Gustave said:

It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, >>from even unto even,<< shall ye celebrate your sabbath

Boom! Just blew up. from even unto even!

5 hours ago, Gustave said:

The Jews admit that they "traditionally" observe the sabbath starting on the evening of the 6th day because they had the authority to make such binding laws. This is how Judaism worked and I'm not slandering it in the least. 

I do not recall ever hearing anyone Jewish claiming to be able to make binding laws changing days and times. So, not buying this argument either.

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BlessedMan
4 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

I do not recall ever hearing anyone Jewish claiming to be able to make binding laws changing days and times. So, not buying this argument either.

I agree with the above, for sure. I try not to get into a lot of "original language" stuff because sometimes its so open to interpretation" that its literally a closed subject. One of the best ways to decide what day is the official Sabbath day, is to simply look at what day was the "preparation day." It sure was not ever Saturday or Sunday! People need to get back to the CONTEXT of verses instead of isolating them into a "better" interpretation. Without the Bible's EXPRESS context, it means very little, and in fact, is NOT Biblical, just because the person "quotes" scripture. Thats kind of like thinking if you say the word Jesus, you can do whatever you want after saying that!

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Mat 7:21)

Quote

"Jesus exposed those people who sounded religious but had no personal relationship with him. On "judgment day" only our relationship with Christ—our acceptance of him as Savior and our obedience to him—will matter. Many people think that if they are "good" people and say religious things, they will be rewarded with eternal life. In reality, faith in Christ is what will count at the judgment." (Life Application Notes re Mat 7:21).

That means not everyone who says the word Jesus...the NAME of Jesus is different than the word Jesus. The NAME of Jesus is His character. The NAME of Jesus is in the character of His people. The NAME of Jesus is not the word Jesus.

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BlessedMan
1 hour ago, B/W Photodude said:

You only have a general reference for keeping "a" sabbath day.

It is my current understanding that one of the more revered apologists, Jimmy Akin, (Catholic version of EGW?) likely has not listened to himself talk about this subject lately. Here is what he says about why we dont have to keep the Sabbath on the seventh-day: Akin's appeal goes FIRST to the "authority" of the RCC
 

Quote

 

The Catechism of Trent states: The other commandments of the Decalogue are precepts of the natural law, obligatory at all times and unalterable. Hence, after the abrogation of the Law of Moses, all the commandments contained in the [Ten Commandments] are observed by Christians, not indeed because their observance is commanded by Moses, but because they are in conformity with nature which dictates obedience to them. This commandment about the observance of the Sabbath, on the other hand, considered as to the time appointed for its fulfillment, is not fixed and unalterable, but susceptible of change, and belongs not to the moral, but the ceremonial law. Neither is it a principle of the natural law; we are not instructed by nature to give external worship to God on that day, rather than on any other.

And in fact the Sabbath was kept holy only from the time of the liberation of the people of Israel from the bondage of Pharaoh. The observance of the Sabbath was to be abrogated at the same time as the other Hebrew rites and ceremonies, that is, at the death of Christ (3:4:4). Consequently, observing the Sabbath isn’t required even for Jewish people after the death of Christ, and it was never required for Gentiles (see Day 322). Paul states: “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath” (Col. 2:17)—the annual feasts, the monthly new moons, and the weekly sabbaths being the three types of holy days on the Jewish calendar. The moral principles underlying the Sabbath—devoting adequate time to rest and worship—remain binding, so the first-century Church began honoring the first day of the Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10; cf. 1 Cor. 16:2), since it was on this day the Lord Jesus was resurrected (Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1, John 20:1). Thus Christians observe Sunday rather than the Jewish Sabbath.

Akin, Jimmy. A Daily Defense: 365 Days ( plus one) to Becoming a Better Apologist . Catholic Answers Press. Kindle Edition.

 

In another topic, from the same book, Akin says the following:  

Quote

 

Finally, the Gospels are explicit that Jesus was crucified on a Friday, which was referred to as the “day of preparation” when people got ready for the Sabbath (Matt. 27:62; Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:14, 31, 42).

Akin, Jimmy. A Daily Defense: 365 Days ( plus one) to Becoming a Better Apologist . Catholic Answers Press. Kindle Edition.

 

So, the Catholics do admit that the preparation day IS and always WAS Friday. Which is, of course, correct. They also cede that the seventh-day Sabbath WAS Saturday, or the 7th day. Soooo....if THAT Sabbath was "changed" then how come those other days didn't change too?

Methinks a few more "steps" are needed to become that "better apologist."  Can anyone in the room tell us what the missing piece is here?

 

 

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Gustave
36 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

Sorry, it is not an idiom, it is the way it is written in the Bible. The Babylonians may also have started their days at the evening, but then that in no way negayes the Bible instructions that the Sabbath starts on the evening of the sixth day at sundown.

From the Hebrew Bible

And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night, and it was evening and it was morning, one day.

וַיִּקְרָ֨א אֱלֹהִ֤ים | לָאוֹר֙ י֔וֹם וְלַח֖שֶׁךְ קָ֣רָא לָ֑יְלָה 
וַֽיְהִי־עֶ֥רֶב וַֽיְהִי־בֹ֖קֶר י֥וֹם אֶחָֽד:

So, I take my bible as it reads and not some "explanation" of how culture changed the idioms.

BTW, your argument is getting ready to blowup!

Boom! Just blew up. from even unto even!

I do not recall ever hearing anyone Jewish claiming to be able to make binding laws changing days and times. So, not buying this argument either.

Your last sentence 1st:

Matthew 23, 2-3. The Jew saying this was Jesus. 

And if you would care for a more modern example of essentially the same thing I offer: 

"Second, the talmudic innovation of reckoning a day from the eve before suggests a larger view of life. While we may never know what prompted the Rabbis to reconfigure the day, the existential benefit is indisputable. By inaugurating the celebration of Shabbat or a festival at sunset, they have framed a stretch of time that can be ritually filled to heighten the religious experience. At the other end of the day, an eventide that does not mark a boundary between sacred and profane time would tend to be anti-climactic, an appendage of time to be endured till sunrise catches us unawares. To celebrate from sunset to sunset is to experience the passage of time each day consciously and bravely".  Ismar Schorsch / http://www.jtsa.edu/the-day-begins-with-night

 

"Thus, the Sabbath in biblical times began on Saturday morning and ended on Sunday morning, just like any other day, and the day continued to begin at daybreak until the Jews changed the practice during the Babylonian exile around 550 B.C.E. due to the influence of the surrounding culture. How did the women react to the change in the time for starting the Sabbath?" https://booksnthoughts.com/why-women-must-start-shabbat-before-men/

 

The meaning in Genesis is;  God created such and such, evening came than morning followed - the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. day. 

 

Creation action / event followed by an evening and a morning (THE 1st Day).

 

Leviticus 7,15  states that the sacrifice had to be consumed on the day it was offered AND that the clock for "THAT DAY" ran out at sunrise of the following day. Under your understanding at sundown of the day the Sacrifice was offered the next day would have already started - the Scriptures refute that understanding. 

This has come as somewhat shocking to you? 

 

 

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Gustave
24 minutes ago, BlessedMan said:

It is my current understanding that one of the more revered apologists, Jimmy Akin, (Catholic version of EGW?) likely has not listened to himself talk about this subject lately. Here is what he says about why we dont have to keep the Sabbath on the seventh-day: Akin's appeal goes FIRST to the "authority" of the RCC
 

In another topic, from the same book, Akin says the following:  

So, the Catholics do admit that the preparation day IS and always WAS Friday. Which is, of course, correct. They also cede that the seventh-day Sabbath WAS Saturday, or the 7th day. Soooo....if THAT Sabbath was "changed" then how come those other days didn't change too?

Methinks a few more "steps" are needed to become that "better apologist."  Can anyone in the room tell us what the missing piece is here?

 

 

Trent says that man is not commanded by Nature to observe a Sabbath on the 7th day [ and this is most certainly true ]. Man is certainly not commanded by Nature to observe a day of atonement on the tenth day of the 7th month starting on evening of the 9th day. This is really not that complicated. 

The New Testament is explicit that God, by Divine Fiat, declared all foods clean (Mark 7, 19). In just as clear of language the Sabbath was said to be fulfilled by Christ and therefore "not obligatory" for Christians (Galations 4, 10 / Colossians 2, 16-17). However, according to the New Testament, it WAS A SIN for Christians NOT TO ASSEMBLE THEMSELVES together. I think most SDA's wouldn't eat a BLT because they think God doesn't want them too because it's "unclean" and spelled out not to do it in Leviticus. So, just like the clear instruction about foods in Mark 7 the issue of the Sabbath is treated the same way. 

 

Hebrews 10,24:  And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

That says that the sin itself is Christians not assembling THEMSELVES together. There is only one day the New Testament says that Christians assembled "themselves" together on. I don't think the Bible could much clearer that its a real mistake to think you're getting extra credit for observing any of Judaism's Liturgical Feasts. 

 

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BlessedMan
1 hour ago, Gustave said:

That says that the sin itself is Christians not assembling THEMSELVES together.

Hello Gustave. Thank you for this reply. I am quite happy to see you back on the forum with us firing a few shots of your own. :)

I have to take a short pause, as other duties call. Ill give this all some prayer and thought, till next time. take care my friend. :)

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phkrause
14 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

I think some people only want to read about "their" day. And thats what misses the whole point of the text. It says "the Sabbath of The Lord Thy God."  I had someone earlier this week say to me "Can you tell me more about "your" Sabbath; and that was the first thing I said to them, that it isn't "my Sabbath;" it's God's.

Amen!!!

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phkrause
9 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Unfortunately, lefties have gone after children of public figures in some very nasty ways. 

And so have the righties!!!! Both sides are wrong period!!!!

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Gustave
11 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

Hello Gustave. Thank you for this reply. I am quite happy to see you back on the forum with us firing a few shots of your own. :)

I have to take a short pause, as other duties call. Ill give this all some prayer and thought, till next time. take care my friend. :)

Its all good, the shots are out of love :) 

I've been crazy busy myself and plan to be on and off the board as time permits for about two more months. 

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Gustave
15 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Oh, there are more than one difference between Catholics and SDAs regarding the 10 commandments.

You seem comfortable with people changing things as noted in your previous post.

Catholics did eliminate the 2nd commandment which allows you to keep all your statutes and and other images of saints which get prayed to and from which miracles seem to occur.

The fourth commandment was gutted and moved to the third spot in the order. Gone is the reference to the specific day of rest and the authority by which God claims His right to be worshipped on the day of His designation. You only have a general reference for keeping "a" sabbath day.

It's just numbering and worthy of note to mention Luther didn't seem to have much of a problem in the way it was done.  https://www.sundaysoftware.com/ten/number.htm

You like the way Origin numbered them as opposed to Augustine - that works for me. 

Jews at the time of Christ "prayed for the dead" and still do. Christians "prayed for the dead" two hundred years before Christianity was legalized in Rome. At the time when Christians were being hunted down, tortured, fed to the lions these same Christians were "praying for the dead".

I'll concede that the Sadducee's DIDN'T pray for the dead  as they believed the dead were dead and that there wasn't going to be any resurrection, no such things as "spirits" or "angels" either. I'll grant that however you should know that the early Christians didn't take their theological training from Sadducee's who Christ absolutely corrected - on all three of their errors.  

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Gregory Matthews

On the time for the Sabbath to begin, as has been mentioned, SDAs trace this back to the Creation story.  As stated, all six days in that story seem to begin the day with sundown on what we today call the preceding day.   

Gustave is correct when he stated that the phrase "evening and morning" is a Hebrew Idiom.  However, I will suggest that he is not correct in his identification of that idiom as meaning that the day began with the morning light.  SDA scholars of the Hebrew and Aramaic will suggest that the idiom involved in those passages in Genesis tell us that the period of time was  24-hour day, as we would call it today, as opposed to it being a day of some metaphorical length, such as a year.

Gustave's reference to Leviticus 23, takes me to the 5th verse which tells us that the Jewish religious holy days began and ended at evening.  However, as I have said, SDA observance is not based upon Jewish law.   Rather it is based upon the Creation story as found in Genesis.  It should be noted that the SDA observance of the Sabbath is not even closely related to the Jewish observance of the Sabbath.

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Gregory Matthews

I am not an expert in either the Geek, or Hebrew languages of the Bible.  I have some knowledge, but it is limited.

The following website addresses that issue that I mentioned and does it better that I did.

 https://www.gotquestions.org/genesis-days.html

NOTE:  The above website provides additional sources of information that are helpful.  It may be asked as to whether or not the above website is a SDA website.  Due to the fact that it clearly states that the SDA practice related to Sabbath keeping is not a Christian practice today I do not believe that it is a SDA website.

 

 

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Gustave

"The Lord's Passover" begins at twilight of the 14th day of the 1st month. The Sabbath is, according to Scripture, the 7th day of the week. As Leviticus 7, 15 says the evening belong to the day that proceeded it - it does not start the new day. 

Jewish Scholars have conceded this as has other Christian Scholars. In Judaism there is an understanding of Sacred Tradition, it is by Sacred Tradition (& not Scripture) that Jews began observing the 7th day Sabbath starting at sunset of the 6th day. It's a Babylonian Talmudic thing. 

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BlessedMan
On 1/19/2020 at 8:10 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

On the time for the Sabbath to begin, as has been mentioned, SDAs trace this back to the Creation story.  As stated, all six days in that story seem to begin the day with sundown on what we today call the preceding day.   

Well, IDK if anyone will fault me for this or not, but I have to say that some time ago, I decided I had no real way to solve this issue. Over the years I have consistently kept the Sabbath with just one rule as I couldnt handle the constant bickering about whether it was "right" or "wrong" to keep the Sabbath, with all the many rights and wrongs;  now its simple:  by just looking out my window, seeing if the sun looked like it was setting, and if it looked like It was setting, thats when I started the sabbath. Thats still "the Sabbath day "of the Lord Thy God," as far as I know.

There is no text in scripture which switches Sunday over to the Sabbath, or changes them around somehow.  The seven days of the week have always been the same. It was never the case Sabbath was changed, only Sunday

If the RCCs think they would like to change the one day, then other days and times would have to change too. IDK but as far as I know, RCCs if they feel so strongly about "keeping Sunday," then  according to the Bible; they can only call it "Sunday keeping,"  they can't call it "keeping the sabbath"; for Saturday is keeping the Sabbath so as Saturday, IS and WAS the "seventh day Sabbath" - not of The Adventist Church, but "of The Lord Thy God.;" this is what Adventists keep and why

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B/W Photodude
On 1/18/2020 at 10:13 PM, Gustave said:

That says that the sin itself is Christians not assembling THEMSELVES together. There is only one day the New Testament says that Christians assembled "themselves" together on. I don't think the Bible could much clearer that its a real mistake to think you're getting extra credit for observing any of Judaism's Liturgical Feasts. 

Gustave, I have been led to believe you are of the Catholic faith but am surprised to see that you provide the same tired arguments that Sunday keeping Protestants give when discussing why they keep Sunday instead of the seventh day as hallowed by God!

When you read the New Testament, you will find the seventh day Sabbath mentioned over 50 times. The seventh day is referred to as "Sabbath."The first day of the week only five times. It is never called the Sabbath. It seems to have referred to doing tasks not acceptable on the Sabbath day. At least once they heard preaching when Paul was readying for a journey, but gathering together in a church to hear preaching in no way should infer that the Sabbath is being kept. Many churches have services every Wednesday evening. Should we infer that the fifth day of the week is now the Sabbath., since the prayer meetings usually start out in the evening which would make it Thursday!

In Hebrews 4, written around AD60, Paul wrote,  "1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. ... 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. ... 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts." This would have been after those first day of the week events written about in the New Testament.

The Roman emperor Constantine, a former sun-worshiper, professed conversion to Christianity, though his subsequent actions suggest the “conversion” was more of a political move than a genuine heart change. Constantine named himself Bishop of the Catholic Church and enacted the first civil law regarding Sunday observance in A.D. 321.

Now, as a Catholic, I was surprised as I mentioned that you would use the arguments put forth by Sunday keeping Protestants. Why do you not just fall back on what the Roman church teaches?

In the Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, we read:
Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (AD 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday….

In An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine, 
Q. How prove you that the church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.

In A Doctrinal Catechism,
Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her. She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority. –Rev. Stephen Keenan, (1851), p. 174.

In the Augsburg Confession,
They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord’s day, contrary to the decalogue, as it appears; neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the ten commandments.—Art. 28.

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.” Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

The Sunday…is purely a creation of the Catholic Church.” American Catholic Quarterly Review, January 1883

Sunday…is the law of the Catholic Church alone…” American Sentinel (Catholic), June 1893

“Protestants … accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change… But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that … in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope.” Our Sunday Visitor, February 5th, 1950.

So, even the Protestants, who arguably are protesting the Roman church, accept the authority of the Roman church even as they attempt to show some other reason why Sunday is observed!

I believe that if God reeaallly wanted to change His holy day to the sun god's preferred day of observance, He would have explicitly spelled it out in the Scriptures and not left it up to us to rationalize away why we no longer follow His commandments!

God, “with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning” (James 1:17), does not change (Malachi 3:6). The Israelites received two laws from Moses: the law of Moses, that of ordinances and ceremonies; and the Law of God, embodied in the Ten Commandments, which is an expression of God’s character. If God does not change, neither will His Law.

Simply put ... to change the commandments by man's efforts is nothing less than trying to change God and in effect, exalting himself over God! This is something Lucifer wanted very much to do and got kicked out of heaven on his can for.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

https://loudcryofthethirdangel.com/admitting-the-change-of-sabbath-to-sunday-the-catholic-church/

https://www.sabbathtruth.com/free-resources/article-library/id/916/catholic-church-admits-they-made-the-change

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BlessedMan
59 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

Gustave, I have been led to believe you are of the Catholic faith but am surprised to see that you provide the same tired arguments that Sunday keeping Protestants give when discussing why they keep Sunday instead of the seventh day as hallowed by God!

Roman Catholics do seem to have some amazing apologetics for what you have posted:

Quote

 

The celebration of Easter is rooted in the resurrection of Jesus from the dead and was a central focus of the early Christians. The Sabbath was changed by the early Jewish converts from Saturday to Sunday in recognition of the Resurrection and was not borrowed from pagan practice. (Weidenkopf, Steve. The Real Story of Catholic History: Answering Twenty Centuries of Anti-Catholic Myths . Catholic Answers Press. Kindle Edition).

 

 

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BlessedMan
1 hour ago, B/W Photodude said:

When you read the New Testament, you will find the seventh day Sabbath mentioned over 50 times. The seventh day is referred to as "Sabbath."The first day of the week only five times. It is never called the Sabbath. It seems to have referred to doing tasks not acceptable on the Sabbath day. At least once they heard preaching when Paul was readying for a journey, but gathering together in a church to hear preaching in no way should infer that the Sabbath is being kept. Many churches have services every Wednesday evening. Should we infer that the fifth day of the week is now the Sabbath., since the prayer meetings usually start out in the evening which would make it Thursday!

In the 1600s or so, as well as other points in history, Roman Catholics sort of did it to themselves, with some rather stringent legislation regarding "The Sunday Obligation,"   and "receiving of the sacraments."  In turn, when Protestant's gained the political the upper-hand; in some cases; they retaliated with some pretty strong stuff of their own:

Quote

 

Finally, on 4 April 1687, James II issued a Declaration of Indulgence: All and all manner of penal laws in matters ecclesiastical, for not coming to church or not receiving the sacrament or for any other nonconformity to the religion established or for or by reason of exercise of religion in any other manner whatsoever, be immediately suspended.20 From then on it was legal to spend one’s Sundays ‘betweixt the bedd and the chimney corner and sauntering about the streets and fields (not to speake of eating and drinkeing)’.21 However, there was to be no ‘indulgence’ of Catholicism. Between 1559 and 1610, ‘Parliament passed a series of harsh penal codes . . . that made it unlawful, and indeed treasonable, to engage in Catholic rites. Catholics could not hear a Mass, join a profession, hold office, own a weapon or come within 10 miles of London. Priests were banned from the country, and anyone harboring them could be condemned to death.’22 (Stark, Rodney. Reformation Myths: Five Centuries Of Misconceptions And (Some) Misfortunes . SPCK. Kindle Edition).

 

This denominational brinkmanship just wont go away. Catholics still feel that "Sunday" is essential, and has "special importance:" They have always sought to enforce, in one degree or another "Sunday" by civil authorities.

Quote

 

237. On Sunday, our participation in the Eucharist has special importance. Sunday, like the Jewish Sabbath, is meant to be a day which heals our relationships with God, with ourselves, with others and with the world. Sunday is the day of the Resurrection, the “first day” of the new creation, whose first fruits are the Lord’s risen humanity, the pledge of the final transfiguration of all created reality. It also proclaims “man’s eternal rest in God.”168 (Pope Francis. Encyclical on Climate Change and Inequality (p. 144). Melville House. Kindle Edition).

 

"Sunday" appears to be a very big part of RCC solutions to "climate" change.

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Gustave
50 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

Gustave, I have been led to believe you are of the Catholic faith but am surprised to see that you provide the same tired arguments that Sunday keeping Protestants give when discussing why they keep Sunday instead of the seventh day as hallowed by God!

When you read the New Testament, you will find the seventh day Sabbath mentioned over 50 times. The seventh day is referred to as "Sabbath."The first day of the week only five times. It is never called the Sabbath. It seems to have referred to doing tasks not acceptable on the Sabbath day. At least once they heard preaching when Paul was readying for a journey, but gathering together in a church to hear preaching in no way should infer that the Sabbath is being kept. Many churches have services every Wednesday evening. Should we infer that the fifth day of the week is now the Sabbath., since the prayer meetings usually start out in the evening which would make it Thursday!

In Hebrews 4, written around AD60, Paul wrote,  "1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. ... 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. ... 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts." This would have been after those first day of the week events written about in the New Testament.

The Roman emperor Constantine, a former sun-worshiper, professed conversion to Christianity, though his subsequent actions suggest the “conversion” was more of a political move than a genuine heart change. Constantine named himself Bishop of the Catholic Church and enacted the first civil law regarding Sunday observance in A.D. 321.

Now, as a Catholic, I was surprised as I mentioned that you would use the arguments put forth by Sunday keeping Protestants. Why do you not just fall back on what the Roman church teaches?

In the Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, we read:
Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (AD 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday….

In An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine, 
Q. How prove you that the church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.

In A Doctrinal Catechism,
Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her. She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority. –Rev. Stephen Keenan, (1851), p. 174.

In the Augsburg Confession,
They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord’s day, contrary to the decalogue, as it appears; neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the ten commandments.—Art. 28.

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.” Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

The Sunday…is purely a creation of the Catholic Church.” American Catholic Quarterly Review, January 1883

Sunday…is the law of the Catholic Church alone…” American Sentinel (Catholic), June 1893

“Protestants … accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change… But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that … in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope.” Our Sunday Visitor, February 5th, 1950.

So, even the Protestants, who arguably are protesting the Roman church, accept the authority of the Roman church even as they attempt to show some other reason why Sunday is observed!

I believe that if God reeaallly wanted to change His holy day to the sun god's preferred day of observance, He would have explicitly spelled it out in the Scriptures and not left it up to us to rationalize away why we no longer follow His commandments!

God, “with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning” (James 1:17), does not change (Malachi 3:6). The Israelites received two laws from Moses: the law of Moses, that of ordinances and ceremonies; and the Law of God, embodied in the Ten Commandments, which is an expression of God’s character. If God does not change, neither will His Law.

Simply put ... to change the commandments by man's efforts is nothing less than trying to change God and in effect, exalting himself over God! This is something Lucifer wanted very much to do and got kicked out of heaven on his can for.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

https://loudcryofthethirdangel.com/admitting-the-change-of-sabbath-to-sunday-the-catholic-church/

https://www.sabbathtruth.com/free-resources/article-library/id/916/catholic-church-admits-they-made-the-change

 

Photodude, 

What Catholics would say about the Sabbath would not be the same as Protestants say about it.

For starters Catholics believe that Christ did not "free Christians from the Law" so they wouldn't have to follow it. To the contrary Catholics believe every law found in the Old Testament that is Natural or Moral is obligatory. As the Catechism of The Council of Trent so clearly says;

"we are not instructed by nature to give external worship to God on that day, rather than on any other. And in fact the Sabbath was kept holy only from the time of the liberation of the people of Israel from the bondage of Pharaoh. The observance of the Sabbath was to be abrogated at the same time as the other Hebrew rites and ceremonies, that is, at the death of Christ. Having been, as it were, images which foreshadowed the light and the truth, these ceremonies were to disappear at the coming of that light and truth, which is Jesus Christ. Hence St. Paul, in his Epistle to the Galatians, when reproving the observers of the Mosaic rites, says: You observe days and months and times and years; I am afraid of you lest perhaps I have laboured in vain amongst you. And he writes to the same effect to the Colossians".

 

The fact is humans are not instructed (commanded by Nature) to give external worship to God on that day. This is why the Israelite's were instructed in these ceremonial aspects of worship.  Here,

 

"This month shall be UNTO YOU the beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year TO YOU". Genesis 12,2

 

"Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be TO YOU an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death". Exodus 35,2

 

"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean TO YOU". Leviticus 11,7

 

"Ye shall blow the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifice of your peace offerings that they may be TO YOU for a memorial before your God...." Numbers 10,10

 

Exodus 10, 25-26 shows that Moses and the Israelite's were ignorant of the ceremonial laws about what day they would worship God, how their sacrifices would be conducted, etc. etc. etc. Therefore the Catechism of Trent is spot on in what it says when it says these ceremonial aspects of the law were enjoined ON ISRAEL, it was TO THEM, THEIR LAW. The Catechism also states that the Galatians were reproved for observing the Mosaic ceremonial law (in the context of salvation). Look at this below Scripture

 

Galatians 4,8:  Formerly, when you did not know God, you were in bondage to beings that by nature are no gods;  but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves you want to be once more?  You observe days, and months, and seasons, and years11 I am afraid I have labored over you in vain.

These were Pagans who had converted to Christianity and who unfortunately had been duped by "judaizers"  into believing they had to "OBSERVE THE LAW OF MOSES" to be saved (Acts 15, 1 - 5). As the Catechism says Paul wrote to the same effect to the Colossians who were also Pagan Converts to Christianity.

 

Colossians 2, 13:  And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,  having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross.  He disarmed the principalities and powers and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in him.[a]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath.

Paul is here saying the same thing to the Colossians as he said to the Galatians - Paul is fighting against the contaminating teachings of the Judaizers who were subverting the teachings of Christ. What you're essentially saying is that Paul is here telling the Colossians and Galations to let no one pass judgement on them for OBSERVING A SABBATH (Jewish) or A FESTIVAL (Jewish) or a NEW MOON (Jewish). 

So, just so you can better understand how the Catholic position is different from the general Protestant position on this matter I will clarify to you that the Catholic Church does teach that the 10 commandments are valid and obligatory for all Christians and that Jesus did not "free us from the moral or natural aspects of the Law". 

Man is NOT commanded by nature to abstain from eating a ham sandwich or a shrimp cocktail in the exact same way man is not commanded by Nature to follow ANY of the Jewish Liturgical ceremonials. This is why the knowledge of these ceremonial aspects were communicated to the Israelite's by Supernatural means. The moral or natural aspect of the 3rd Commandment is that we owe God external worship, AND, that "The Church" obligated Christians to hold the 1st day of the week as the primary day for this external worship.

 

1st Corinthians 16,1:  Now concerning the contribution for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do.  On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that contributions need not be made when I come.

So, you would obviously know where I'm going here. Paul reproved the Galatians for observing Jewish ceremonial aspects of the law as a means to salvation because they were observing sabbaths, new moons and festivals (all Jewish Feasts on the Jewish Liturgical Calendar) as as means to salvation.  Paul plainly tells the Colossians that he is ordering them to do what he commanded the Galatians to do so the question you have to ask yourself is what does it mean that Paul tells a whole Christian community to NOT let anyone pass judgement on them about ANY Feast day within the Jewish Liturgical Calendar WHILE he orders them to meet every week on a day OUTSIDE of the Jewish Liturgical Calendar??? Can you reconcile this with logic? I don't think so but will gladly hear your reasoning as to why I'm wrong. 

 

 

 

 

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BlessedMan
11 minutes ago, Gustave said:

humans are not instructed (commanded by Nature)

THIS sounds like "The Unknown God..." Putting an upper-case N at the beginning of this word doesn't turn it into some kind of divinity! I hope thats not what you mean by "nature." There is nothing in the Bible about "by nature."

for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: (Acts 17:26)

"Nature" seems like a very "unknown God" to me. "Nature" does not tell us yes or no to scripture.

 

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Gustave
16 minutes ago, BlessedMan said:

THIS sounds like "The Unknown God..." Putting an upper-case N at the beginning of this word doesn't turn it into some kind of divinity! I hope thats not what you mean by "nature." There is nothing in the Bible about "by nature."

for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: (Acts 17:26)

"Nature" seems like a very "unknown God" to me. "Nature" does not tell us yes or no to scripture.

 

Romans 2, 14: When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them  on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Man is evidently not commanded "by nature" to observe any feast on the Jewish Liturgical Calendar.

By nature it is not meant plants, animals and the like. This is speaking of what man "naturally knows", what his nature or consciousness tells him, it's that little voice each of us have that says what is wrong or right. 

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