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BlessedMan

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BlessedMan

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"...your donkey shall be violently taken away from before you, and shall not be restored to you;"
Deut 28:31

 

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BlessedMan

Id be willing to bet that some people thought I was finished with this topic, and that this was just another, quick, drive-by post? lol Don't count on it. Ill be back here soon.  Spoiler Alert: Is there a way that this verse cited above could/should/does apply to the church today?

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BlessedMan
On 5/16/2020 at 12:59 PM, BlessedMan said:

"...your donkey shall be violently taken away from before you, and shall not be restored to you;"
Deut 28:31

Well, this verse is highly reminiscent of other verses that make a similar point. It could be argued that this is JUST about donkeys, but somehow, I don't think so. What is God trying to tell us here?

Another verse, spoken by Jesus to the religious leaders of the day may shed more light; but not without, I am sure, some heat. Sadly, some can't even tell the difference between the two.

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Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Mat 21:43)

With the Medical Industry calamities and other world events being socialized into everyone, has the church already been taken away from the religious leaders of today? Or, is it headed in that direction? We cannot meet in the usual ways, IF we are "allowed" to at all, many churches are simply closed. What is happening to the churches of the land. Are they, or will they be taken away from the leaders, in the same fashion as the lowly donkey in the OP? How much longer can the religious leaders of this, our day hold it together?

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phkrause

In the day that that statement was made God had but one people, today we see many different churches or denominations!! This statement is also under the category of "Curses on Disobedience" for his people!! It does seem to me that today he'd be talking to which denomination? or is it all of them?? I guess I'm trying to ask who is his people today? I would say to answer my own question, he's probably talking to his people in whatever denomination they might be in?? Because I'd say his people are those that, according to Revelation, are those that follow him and keep his Commandments? So I'd say rather than a particular "church" building, he'd be talking to the people who are his church. In these last days the church is actually in us, or we each individual, are the church or his people?? Just my thoughts, obviously! 🙂

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BlessedMan
2 hours ago, phkrause said:

or is it all of them??

THIS was the context of my question re the church being taken away from "the religious leaders" of the day. But in context, the quote I cited may have other shades/layers of meaning.

NOTE: this is not me thinking "the church is Babylon" stuff. :D

Seems to me God has a record of taking things away from us that we are not using wisely; and according to His Blueprint??

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thx4mercy

Please share the rest of your thoughts on this!

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BlessedMan
On 6/24/2020 at 11:24 AM, thx4mercy said:

Please share the rest of your thoughts on this!

Going by the history, as recorded in scripture, it would stand to reason that history can and does repeat itself. The problems of yesterday, seemingly worse, with each repeat. I enclose this short passage to start talking about this subject. The reason I chose this passage is because it is 100% shown in scripture, as well:
 

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At the beginning of His ministry, Christ had driven from the temple those who defiled it by their unholy traffic; and His stern and godlike demeanor had struck terror to the hearts of the scheming traders. At the close of His mission He came again to the temple, and found it still desecrated as before. The condition of things was even worse than before. The outer court of the temple was like a vast cattle yard. With the cries of the animals and the sharp chinking of coin was mingled the sound of angry altercation between traffickers, and among them were heard the voices of men in sacred office. The dignitaries of the temple were themselves engaged in buying and selling and the exchange of money. So completely were they controlled by their greed of gain that in the sight of God they were no better than thieves.  {DA 589.1}  

Little did the priests and rulers realize the solemnity of the work which it was theirs to perform. At every Passover and Feast of Tabernacles, thousands of animals were slain, and their blood was caught by the priests and poured upon the altar. The Jews had become familiar with the offering of blood, and had almost lost sight of the fact that it was sin which made necessary all this shedding of the blood of beasts. They did not discern that it prefigured the blood of God's dear Son, which was to be shed for the life of the world, and that by the offering of sacrifices men were to be directed to a crucified Redeemer.  {DA 589.2} 

 

Is there any strong reasons from scripture telling us this kind of thing wont happen again? Is it already happening now? One would think that with how things are going with the "pandemic" so called, that churches have already lost their footing, and will never recover very well from it. Is it possible the leaders, and their supporters are ignoring the signs and continuing to traffic in their supposed authority and financial "investments?" We have reports right on this forum about closing churches to "protect the investments." There are many other things that might be mentioned here.

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Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Mat 21:43).

Is it possible that Jesus was here, also talking about us in the church today? We, like the Pharisees of old have filled God's House with the traffic of all manner of pecuniary gains and ideas foreign to scripture. Yet all they want to talk about are "rights" and "diversity," so called. Its almost impossible to learn about Jesus, and become acquainted with Him through the church. Not saying it doesnt happen. Just that there is a MAJOR problem, and that the words of Jesus loom over our heads on this one..

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BlessedMan
On 6/24/2020 at 11:24 AM, thx4mercy said:

Please share the rest of your thoughts on this!

There are many things that suggest the church is heading in a different direction than what the leadership would have us believe:

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God has not been unmindful of the good deeds, the self-denying acts, of the church in the past. All are registered on high. But these are not enough. These will not save the church when she ceases to fulfill her mission. Unless the cruel neglect and indifference manifested in the past shall cease, the church, instead of going from strength to strength, will continue to degenerate into weakness and formality. Shall we let this be? Is the dull torpor, the mournful deterioration in love and   spiritual zeal, to be perpetuated? Is this the condition in which Christ is to find His church?  {5T 611.2}

This wasnt just penned for the birds in the air. Is there anything in scripture that would say "no this cannot/will not happen again?" Look to the shrinking church near you for more insight.

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thx4mercy

I have some thoughts that come to my mind but not sure that I'm on the same wavelink as you are, and especially the part about the church being taken away from the leaders.  I have to say, though, that I'm surprised that only phkrause has made an attempt so far to comment on what you brought up.

Regarding the church "heading in a different direction than what the leadership would have us believe" -- are you talking about how it seems to be the "in" thing now to not present the 3 Angels Message because we don't want to offend anybody?  And is the leadership making it sound like we're still "fulfilling our mission"?  I don't know about that part.  You mean like Ted Wilson?

What about Sister White's well-known quote about the church appearing as though it is going to fall, but it won't?  The argument among many is "what is the church?"  Some say it's where God's people are, whether it's in a home church or whatever.  But if that is the case, what exactly is it that is going to appear to fall but won't?

Are the majority of members getting "meat in due season" from their shepherds?  I know a number of people in my church who do not feel they are.  After 3 Sabbaths of our church meeting with "recommended wearing masks", last Sabbath they made it a requirement.  I am not going to wear a mask at church and chose rather to join a group of people who had Kenny Shelton for a guest speaker.  I talked to him in person and he said a person should not stay in their church if they don't feel they are being spiritually fed.  He feels very strongly that we should be giving the straight message and especially during this time RIGHT NOW!

I don't think I've really addressed your OP.  How would you explain your quote from 5T with her quote about the church not falling?  I honestly am not knowing what to think these days.  I know that I don't think as deep as you, but I truly am interested and enjoy discussing things (or trying to).

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BlessedMan
12 minutes ago, thx4mercy said:

I don't think I've really addressed your OP.  How would you explain your quote from 5T with her quote about the church not falling? 

Thanks, for a great post @thx4mercy I appreciate it. I will address it in the details that it deserves, as time & energy permit. But I can offer a couple of quick comments that come to mind. I am very much aware of "the church wont fall" quotes and verses. I think what I have been saying so far is that it will be/is taken away from the leaders. (for the most part, but not all). So IF that was/is the case, then the church would not fall, and that would be in keeping with what Jesus said in (Mat 21:43) "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. ..

Similarly, the quote above from 5T says it this way:

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God has not been unmindful of the good deeds, the self-denying acts, of the church in the past. All are registered on high. But these are not enough. These will not save the church when she ceases to fulfill her mission. Unless the cruel neglect and indifference manifested in the past shall cease, the church, instead of going from strength to strength, will continue to degenerate into weakness and formality. Shall we let this be? Is the dull torpor, the mournful deterioration in love and   spiritual zeal, to be perpetuated? Is this the condition in which Christ is to find His church?  {5T 611.2}

In that passage she calls it "cruel indifference."  Jesus says "it shall be taken from you." Who was He talking about? He didn't say maybe. He said SHALL. This can only mean one thing. Control of the church is to be taken away, and as in the OP, "forcefully" if needed, like that donkey. With the covid19 rules & restrictions, and other measures, and world events now taking place, the leadership has already lost control of the churches. The Godly influences they were designated to have are all but dried up and blown away.

Shelton and his big idea of not going to a church where we dont get fed is really part of the problem. We are not to "keep the faith," we are not to attend church in order to be fed; we should attend church only if we intend to feed others. THAT is the kind of unity spoken of in Ephesians and other places. And that unity is what will be separated from the leaders who want no part of it.

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Many ministers take their text from St. Paul and preach from the newspapers.--Flowery discourses will not be sufficient to feed the soul of the famishing child of God. The following desire will give a voice to the longing of many a heart that is fed on what are called "smart sermons." An intelligent man remarked, "O that my pastor would give me something besides pretty flowers, and brilliant periods, and intellectual treats! My soul is famishing for the Bread of Life. I long for something simple and nourishing and scriptural." Daniel Webster gave utterance to these forcible words: "If clergymen in our day would return to the simplicity of gospel truth, and preach more to individuals and less to the crowd, there would not be so much complaint of the decline of true religion. Many of the ministers of the present day take their text from St. Paul, and preach from the newspapers. When they do so, I prefer to enjoy my own thoughts, rather than listen. I want my pastor to come to me in the Spirit of the gospel, saying, `You are mortal. Your probation is brief, your work must be done speedily. . . . You are hastening to the bar of God. The Judge standeth before the door.'"--RH June 23, 1891. {PaM 188.1}

The Holy Spirit revealed to the apostle the dangers which would assail the church at Ephesus: "I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." Paul trembled for the church as he looked forward to the attacks which they must suffer from external and internal foes. It is while the husbandman sleeps that tares are sown; while the shepherds are neglecting their duty, the wolf finds entrance to the fold. With solemn earnestness he bids his brethren guard vigilantly their sacred trust. He points them for an example to his own unwearied labors: "Therefore watch, and remember that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day and with tears."  {LP 201.1}

When someone tries to "guard that sacred trust," even on this forum, all we hear are accusations of "hateful" and "not friendly." Other forums are much more friendly and the drivelling list goes on incessantly.

Are there any reasons in scripture why Mat 21:43 won't happen again, but on a much grander scale? prophecy does repeat itself, and incrementally more severe each time.

On the other hand, God also promises us in Jer 3:15 "pastors after His own heart."

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thx4mercy

OK, I see what you are saying about the virus and other conditions that have taken the power of the leadership away.  What about the rest of the verse that says it will be "given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof"?  What would that be?  Are you thinking that faithful members would be stepping up to take over and fulfill our mission?  And would they do that while the pastors who weren't leading right are still there?"

How about the "straight testimony of the faithful witness" causing the shaking?  I have always wondered what specifically that would be.   What do you think about the idea of that "testimony" being the writings of Ellen White?  Walter Veith talks about that in his "What's Up Prof #16".  She tells us that her writings will become of no effect and we see that is happening.  I still don't see how people not being interested in her writings or not wanting to follow them would necessarily leave the church.  I see them as just staying in the church and then maybe ending up taking the mark of the beast. 

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BlessedMan
7 minutes ago, thx4mercy said:

What do you think about the idea of that "testimony" being the writings of Ellen White? 

NOPE. I highly doubt that those writings are "the straight testimony." I have NO doubt that the "straight testimony," is something few have any awareness of, as to its true nature. But said "straight testimony" is STRAIGHT from scripture:

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A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (John 13:34)

This can, however, be well demonstrated in both scripture and other writings, such as EGW

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