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Lamech"s slaying?!


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Genesis 4:23 And Lamech said unto unto his wives, Adah and Zilah, Hear my voice, (That means... Listen very carefully because i'm about to tell you something without actually said it!!  If it wasn't necessary for them to figure something out then he would never had said it that way.  He just would have told them all that was on his heart.) ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for i have slain....a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.  So, How many men did Lamech slay? He said one MAN to my wounding.... So, that's atleast 1 and then he said a (YOUNG MAN to my hurt) so to me that's could possibly be 2...  Then he said.... If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and seven fold.  So, Adah and Zilah's question would be.... Lamech, who did you kill and what doe's that matter to us?...   Well, Cain there great Father would mean alot to them.  Why else would Lamech feel it necessary to inform his wives.  Then if there was another Young Man that Lamech killed then there would only be one name being called.... That could not be answered.  If so, what is that name and who is that Young Man????

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PERSONX

there  seem to  be  many  people  in the  bible  that   their  names  are not  mentioned===

examples===Lot's  wife====Women at the  well===the  widow's son====I I  am  sure

there are  many  more  I  do not  have  any  answer  but  like  was  stated  before  we

just  have  to  accept  the  GOD  know  best

dgimm60

 

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Thanks dgrimm60 and Phkrause!!  I believe that the answer is somewhere between Lemech's confession to his wives and the birth of Noah.  However, I was very surprised to see that Lamech confessed to slaying CAIN the brother of Able.  So, looking a little further into what could have been his motive for such an act i traveled back to the birth of Cain.  Two things caught my attention, first when he was born, Eve said.... I have gotten a MAN from the LORD.  So, to me this could only mean one thing.  A very extraordinary amount of strength had to be displayed by him at birth for his mother to say that his strength was equal to that of a MAN. 

Secondly, Cain was very angry with GOD before the offering process had taken place over his level of acceptance by GOD.  Where do i get this from you say..... remember when Cain was being removed from God's presences the Lord said...  "when thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength"  Therefore has was supplied with everything he needed to please the Lord during the offering but his anger got in the way.  So, he sabotaged the offering intentionally........ 

So, first he was born a MAN child.... Secondly, he was not pleased with his LEVEL of acceptance by the Lord.   huummmm i wonder what this could be.  I love a good mystery!! don't you? 

 

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Wow.  I was fascinated by this. I googled to see what else i could find.

Here is something from the Midrash. I am going to post a bit of it, and add the link as well (Some people won't read links.  This, hopefully, will whet the whistle:)

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The Child and the Blind Hunter

The story the Midrash tells is interesting not only for the way it portrays Cain, but for its view of Cain's killer as well. The image of Tuval Kayin and Lemech, the child and the blind hunter, is a memorable one. To fully understand its significance, I propose we take a quick look at the larger, extended family.

Tuval Kayin, the child weapon-maker, has two brothers -- men by the names Yuval and Yaval. If you replay the names of these three siblings over in your mind, they should sound vaguely familiar. Yuval, Yaval, and Tuval Kayin. What do they remind you of?

Well, to tell the truth, if you are used to reading the Bible in English, they may not remind you of much. But if you switch to Hebrew, the resonance in these names is unmistakable. The Hebrew original for the word "Cain" is Kayin -- a word that reappears in the appellation given his descendant, Tuval-Kayin. Likewise, the Hebrew name for "Abel" is Hevel or Haval, which sounds suspiciously similar to "Yaval," the brother of Tuval-Kayin.

The resemblance goes beyond names, too. Just as we are told the professions of Cain and Abel, we are told the professions of Tuval-Kayin and Yaval, too. And wouldn't you know it -- the professions adopted by these seventh-generation descendants bear an eerie similarity to the arts practiced by their forebears. Cain/Kayin was the word's first killer -- and Tuval-Kayin, his namesake-descendant, makes weaponry. Abel/Haval is the first shepherd in history, and his namesake-descendant in the seventh generation, Yaval, is the "father" of traveling herdsmen.

These connections did not go unnoticed by the sages of the Midrash. The rabbis commented about Tuval-Kayin, for example, that his name signifies that "he perfected [metavel (1)] the arts of Kayin." Cain killed without benefit of tools; Tuval-Kayin comes along and, by forging weaponry, gives the art of killing a technological boost. One can argue that Yaval, the seventh-generation heir to Haval/Abel, does likewise: He "perfects" the art of Abel. Abel, the ancestor, grazed his flocks, but Yaval pushed the envelope further. As Rashi puts it, he -- the "father of herdsmen" -- constantly moved his tents, transporting flocks from pasture to pasture, to ensure a virtually never ending supply of grassland. (2)

These "great leaps forward" all take place in the seventh generation from Cain and Abel. Seven, in the Torah, is a number laden with symbolic significance. It often signifies completion -- the bringing of a process to its culmination. God finished Creation in "seven" days, bringing the Universe to its finished state of being. After forty nine years -- seven times seven -- we celebrate Yovel, the Jubilee year, in which "freedom is proclaimed throughout the land." Everything attains a new homeostasis, everything achieves a new balance: Debts are forgiven and slaves are released from servitude. Here too, at the end of seven generations, the lines of Cain and Abel reach their "perfection," their final fruition.

In the case of Cain, that destiny bears ominous overtones. His seventh-generation descendant, Tuval-Kayin, the metalworker, takes the art of killing to new and more powerful levels -- levels that would have been unimaginable to Cain himself, the ancestor of it all. But such is the way of things. We don't always have control over forces we put in motion.

Cain is powerless to stem the lethal forces he has begun to unleash -- forces that culminate in the personage of Tuval Kayin. But ironically, Tuval Kayin and Lemech -- the new killers -- are, in their own ways, just as powerless as well...

 

The image of a child weapon-maker leading around his blind father on hunting expeditions is comedic but chilling.

 

When you get right down to thinking about it, the partnership of Tuval-Kayin and Lemech has to be the craziest hunting duo one can possibly imagine. Tuval-Kayin spots a leopard at a hundred paces, and calls out the coordinates to his father. Lemech, who can't see a blasted thing, wheels around sixty degrees to his left, takes a moment to calculate range and trajectory, then lets his arrows fly. The image of a child weapon-maker leading around his blind father on hunting expeditions is comedic but chilling. Neither the father nor the child is in control. Neither is quite aware at the awesome power they so irresponsibly wield. Both are powerful engines -- but nothing of consequence guides either of them.

https://www.aish.com/jl/b/eb/ca/48950551.html

and there is much much more, even if it's not believed, it is fascinating.

 

Also, Lamech is talked about a bit on this video by Walter Veith, and it is a fantastic thing to watch!  Veith explains  cruel rulers and God giving them permission to rule--I think you will like it. It is one of my favorite Veith videos:

God bless and please bring back more of your curios

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Thanks @Theophilus! for the link and video... interesting.  

However, back to the Holy Word!.... 

We left off at Cain's anger with the Lord because of his level of acceptance.  As, I decided to find out more about Cain to see what could have possibly been Lamech's (Cain's seventh generation grandson) motive for slaying him.  Which could possibly answer the question of who was the other Young Man that was slayed and why.

So, I went back to the prophecy that was spoken to the Serpent (For his betrayal of the Lord) and upon the WOMB of Eve by the Lord.  He said to Eve.... I will greatly MULTIPLY thy sorrow and thy CONCEPTION; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children.  So, according to Eve Cain was first out of the womb but he was not alone Able was there also.  

So, the only thing that could have angered Cain was that he was not acknowledged by the LORD as the First Born Son of Adam and Eve!!

Able is the only one who could have any implications upon his birth right as first born!!    Notice..... Eve was CONCIEVED by Adam ONCE but she gave birth two two boys and Cain came out of the womb first.    However, in the eye's of the Lord has was second!!!  So, the LAMB went to ABLE.    Which made CAIN very angry.  

So now we know the REASON for his anger!!  He believed that he should be acknowledged as the first born..... When he out wrestled Able in the womb..... Eve said Cain had the strength of a Man.  And we know from this he was sent to a distant land outside of the presence of the Lord.   Now we will see what he came to the land with that gave Lamech the motive to slay him!! 

Stay tuned... 

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Now that we know the reason for Cain's anger... Not being accepted as the first born of Adam and Eve so the LAMB went to Able.

So,  what was the meaning of receiving the LAMB and being acknowledged as first born?....    It means that you are not next in line to RULE the earth as the first born Son of Adam and Eve.  So, Cain wanted to be the ruler of Men upon the earth.  Which he felt he rightfully deserved as first born in his eye's. 

Therefore his motive for slaying Able was to become RULER of the earth!  And to prove to Able that God was unjust in his judgement of denying his sacrifice....  Therefore,  "THEY WENT FOR A LITTLE WALK TOGETHER AS BROTHERS IN THE FIELD" and Able discovered that the earth was giving CAIN her strength and that he had all the supplies he needed to be successfully.  And when CAIN saw the his secret was discovered by Able..... he slew him!!!

Next we will discover GOD's Judgement and why he placed a MARK upon Cain.... What it was, and what it meant!!!! 

 

To Be Continued.... 

 

   

 

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Now the Judgment of God is taking place upon Cain......   The Lord said unto Cain.  "Sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire" (In other words... You have a desire CAIN to Rule the Earth/Men) but there's something greater in my sight that want's to RULE over you and it is called SIN.)  Then the Lord said unto Cain..... "Thou shall RULE over HIM"  (Which is the greatest thing that you could ever RULE over in the sight of the LORD.) 

However, it was to late and judgement began........

And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Able thy brother?...   Cain's first response to God's judgement was.  Am I my brother's Keeper?  

We all know that out in the field...  It is the elder's child responsibility to watch over his young brother's and sister's.  So, CAIN is asking the LORD a question as well.  (AM I THE FIRST BORN NOW?)  

More to come..... 

 

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Judgement upon Cain in now in progress..... However, before we get to..  "The Exile", "The Mark" and What it means let's touch on the exile.   We need to have a understanding of where Cain was sent to.   

So, let's travel back to creation and watch very carefully to see where all people on the earth came from.  Clear your mind of everything you've heard and do simple adding and subtracting and you should have no problem see it.  

Starting at Genesis 2:4-5..... And there was not a Man to till the ground.  So, we have a starting point where there is no question that creative power is at work and we know that ADAM is formed by the Lord and placed in the Garden.

Therefore at this point we know that ADAM is first born Son of God on earth, First Man and Father of the children of all the earth.  

How you say?....  Ok, now let's move to Genesis 2:18.  It is not good that Man should be alone..... I will make for him a help meet for him.  

Did you catch that?.....  A help "meet" for him........     So, let recap!  At this point Adam is the only Man on earth.  Now creation is about to take place again but this time he will wound Adam in a deep sleep and remove one of his ribs!.    So, that leaves only two questions concerning where all people came from.  Where was Eve brought from? and who are the people in the Land of NOD.  Get it now?... Adams rib became a part of the second creation process of people. 

Ok, let's look at the word "meet"......  It means  from the phrase an help meet for him i.e., a help suitable for him, in the Authorized Version of the Bible (1611)

So, in the 1611 Authorized Version of the Bible this word "meet" is understood to mean..... here we go!  "SUITABLE"  

Then the scripture says..... and the Lord "BROUGHT" her unto the Man.   BROUGHT means to make (someone or something) move in a particular direction or way.  

Viola!! 

The people of the Land of NOD are a nation of the daughters of Adam created from his rib and Eve was brought to Adam from this Place!!

And Adam knew this....  So he spoke of his future born Sons receiving a wife among his daughters in Genesis 2:24

Therefore it was Law and Tradition that all Sons of Adam would receive a wife from the land of Nod.  The daughters of Adam and Sisters of Eve!!

But to CAIN... THE Land of Exile!!  So when CAIN feared being killed.  What he could not bear was being killed by a WOMAN for the murder of his brother.  

 

Next the Exile and the Mark..... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The Exile!.....  Judgment is in progress upon Cain and he is immediately CURSED from the earth by the Lord.  However, he couldn't bear his punishment for he feared being slayed by the Daughters of Adam in the land of Nod for the murder of Able. 

Gen 4:15 - And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Ok, so what's is the Mark you say?.....   First, the words spoken by the Lord we know could be read by other's for example Lamech, Adah and Zilla.  In other words this message was visible to others.  

Secondly..... we know that his flesh was not altered in any way. 

Thirdly..... It was set upon Cain.

So, in short... The Lord took something and wrote words upon it that would let all people know that Cain was under the Lords protection and sat it upon Cain.   huummmmm can you guess?   Absolutley correct!  A CROWN FROM THE LORD.  

This could possibly be the PRIZE for Lamech's motive! 

It's meaning coming shortly....  

 

 

 

 

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"THE CROWN"

So, the Lord placed a CROWN upon the head of Cain lest any finding him should slay him.

Now... Let's take a look at the CROWN.  Written upon is was "WHOSOEVER SHALL SLAYETH CAIN, VENGEANCE SHALL BE TAKEN UPON HIM SEVENFOLD"   Note: Of what substance the CROWN was fashioned the scripture does not specify however, we do know that there was GOLD and ONYX at the river of Pison. 

Two questions need to be addressed.  Is the Lord going to avenge the murder of Able upon Cain?  If so, by what means will it take place? Or is the Mercy of the Lord going to allow CAIN to live under the protection of the CROWN?

So, CAIN enters the Land of Nod wearing a CROWN of protection from the Lord..... But he's also CURSED from the earth.

LAMECH takes two wives and begins to have children.  And then Lamech notices something about the CROWN.

IT HAS A TWOFOLD meaning......  part PROTECTION / part CURSE!  A double edge sword was upon CAIN's head.

LAMECH realized that VENGEANCE was ordered by the LORD to take place upon CAIN in the Seventh Generation (SEVENFOLD).  Also, there is another special man born in the seventh generation...... ENOCH!

And WHOSOEVER saw it when the set period of time was up (THE MARK is a set period in time when vengeance upon CAIN would happen) would have the opportunity to receive the CROWN of GOD in RIGHTEOUSNESS!

LAMECH realized this.... but it was the DOUBLE EDGE SWORD OF THE CROWN that wounded and hurt him before he ever touched any MAN.

THE WOUND and HURT of LAMECH upon return..... 

 

 

 

 

 

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Again, this is fascinating, and I can see you have put a lot of research into this. this is where I'm lost:

Quote

Judgement upon Cain in now in progress..... However, before we get to..  "The Exile", "The Mark" and What it means let's touch on the exile.   We need to have a understanding of where Cain was sent to.   

So, let's travel back to creation and watch very carefully to see where all people on the earth came from.  Clear your mind of everything you've heard and do simple adding and subtracting and you should have no problem see it.  

Starting at Genesis 2:4-5..... And there was not a Man to till the ground.  So, we have a starting point where there is no question that creative power is at work and we know that ADAM is formed by the Lord and placed in the Garden.

Therefore at this point we know that ADAM is first born Son of God on earth, First Man and Father of the children of all the earth.  

How you say?....  Ok, now let's move to Genesis 2:18.  It is not good that Man should be alone..... I will make for him a help meet for him.  

Did you catch that?.....  A help "meet" for him........     So, let recap!  At this point Adam is the only Man on earth.  Now creation is about to take place again but this time he will wound Adam in a deep sleep and remove one of his ribs!.    So, that leaves only two questions concerning where all people came from.  Where was Eve brought from? and who are the people in the Land of NOD.  Get it now?... Adams rib became a part of the second creation process of people. 

Ok, let's look at the word "meet"......  It means  from the phrase an help meet for him i.e., a help suitable for him, in the Authorized Version of the Bible (1611)

So, in the 1611 Authorized Version of the Bible this word "meet" is understood to mean..... here we go!  "SUITABLE"  

Then the scripture says..... and the Lord "BROUGHT" her unto the Man.   BROUGHT means to make (someone or something) move in a particular direction or way.  

Viola!! 

The people of the Land of NOD are a nation of the daughters of Adam created from his rib and Eve was brought to Adam from this Place!!

And Adam knew this....  So he spoke of his future born Sons receiving a wife among his daughters in Genesis 2:24

Therefore it was Law and Tradition that all Sons of Adam would receive a wife from the land of Nod.  The daughters of Adam and Sisters of Eve!!

The Lord made Eve out of Adam's rib.  But she was the mother of all, so she couldn't have come from anywhere but Adam. There was no land of NOD, then--only Eden.  The term help meet was one of assistance, and "other half."  and Eve could not have had sisters.

Here is an essay on the word "help-meet" and what the phrase means in Hebrew:

https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/studies-interpretation/what-is-a-help-meet.htm

Again, I am enjoying your ideas. Please know that in no way with my response am I acting like the authority on anything.  Please let me know your further thoughts.

 

 

Edited by Theophilus
made "were" where
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  • 3 weeks later...

I just noticed this thread. 

 

God promised Cain that if anyone killed him that God would punish that person sevenfold, or God's perfect wrath. Whether trusting in this promise ended up being salvation or not we won't learn until heaven. 

Lamech made a rhyme. The lines of slaying a man and a young man was simply parallel, where you repeat the same idea two different ways. And he then referred to God's promise to Cain. However at the end Lamech ruined his poem. He was following regular poetic rules and everyone knew what was coming, but suddenly the end was wrong, horribly wrong. 

There were two correct ways of ending the poem. One correct way would have been to say "If Cain be avenged sevenfold, then Lamech be avenged seven plus one fold." The other correct way to have ended it would be to say "If Cain be avenged sevenfold, then Lamech be avenged eightfold." If he said either of these lines he would have been asking for God to provide the same promise to him that God gave to Cain. 

However, Lamech did not say either of those two lines which fit the poetic style. In saying "Lamech seventy and seven fold." What Lamech was saying was that he was so full of hatred that if someone killed him, that God's perfect vengeance was not enough. Lamech was saying that he wanted way more vengeance than  it is possible for God to give. 

We find a reference to this story; When Peter asked Jesus how often he should forgive, up to 7 times? he was NOT thinking math. He was asking Jesus if he was to forgive fully, perfectly, to forgive the way he hoped God would forgive him. But Jesus turned to Lamech's horrible poem and said "No you should try to be more forgiving than God is. God should look at you and scratch his head and ask how you can be so forgiving." As Lamech was so overwhelmed by hate that he wanted someone to suffer more than God could make someone suffer, so we should set up as a goal to be as forgiving to people as Lamech was hateful.     

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  • 2 weeks later...

That may be an application, but does not really fit the context. We have the issue of Lamech talking about his refusal to forgive, and Peter talking about forgiving, thus they are both talking about the same topic. Also, God's love for Israel went way beyond the 490 years. In the Bible, God gives two plans on how he is willing to use Israel. 

One, the land was quite literally the center of the ancient world. The major intersection for trade caravans. God wanted to bless them in the land, the traders in the caravans would tell stories about this nation of priests (the blue thread that every Hebrew was to wear was the sign of being a priest), and the world would come to the land to learn about their God. Nations would join, others would reject. 

If the Hebrews were not faithful, God would send curses to get them to change. If nothing else worked they would go into exile. In exile they were to tell their neighbors about their unfaithfulness and God's faithfulness, and thus spread the gospel and the exile should end in a second great exodus lead by the messiah. This plan was to go into all the world and spread the gospel. 

I call these two plans land theology and exile theology. 

The Babylonian exile could have ended in the second great exodus, but instead they got another 490 years of land theology (about the time from David until the end of the exile). After the 490 years it was again exile theology. God has faithful Jews such as Abraham Joshua Heshel, Marc Chagall and God has and will raise up many more like them. While not necessarily THE ultimate fulfilment, an application of the 2 witnesses are the church and synagogue. Thus God's love may change in how we receive it but goes way beyond the 490, so Jesus has given us an impossible challenge, but for Jesus to give this challenge to try to out forgive God (just as Lamech wanted his hate to go far beyond what God could do) shows us how important forgiveness is. 

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Of course God's forgiveness extends more that 490 years. That was for the judgement. We are talking about judgement.  God always has a remnant, so some out of it would be God fearing. I don't dispute that.

Not sure what you meant with respect to the poetry. That point might need to be elaborated upon. I don't see it, or Jesus referecing it. I think that is a bit of a stretch.

I kind of like what Walter Veith talks about in the Herodian mind Part 1. It's upthread.

God's people were to pave the way for the Messiah and to proselytize. They did neither.  The 2 witnesses were the Old and New Testaments, or the Law and Prophets.

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A lot of people miss the poetry as we don't recognize the form unless we either study ancient writings or heard theologians who point it out to us. There are other Bible verses that also follow that poetry (I'll have to look up some verses for you), but unless we dig deeper into the text we tend to miss it. 

The poem should end one of two ways, Lamech should have said that if Cain was going to be avenged with God's perfect vengeance (Sevenfold) one way that fit all these ancient poems would be for it to day "then Lamech eightfold" a second way would be "then Lamech seven plus one fold". And the message would have been that Lamech would have been asking for God to help him and to protect him with the same promise that God gave to Cain. It would have been a turning to God to help. 

But the seventy times sevenfold, was a way of ruining the poem. Like someone saying "Mary had a little lamb, fleece as white as snow, and everywhere that Mary went the lamb was sure to be butchered and turned into lunch." Besides ruining the poetic form, his words were not a reaching out to God for help, but a rejection of God's help because Lamech wanted more vengeance than God's perfect vengeance. He was saying that he was so full of hate that he had no interest in God, even God's perfect vengeance was not enough.

As for the 2 witnesses, yes the law and the prophets and old and new testaments are good applications, and Dr. Jacques Doukhan builds a good case for it to also be the church and synagogue

 

 

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