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Harp of God Ebook Yields Surprising Information, Datewise


Theophilus
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Many years ago, a place we moved to had been lived in prior to us by a Jehovah's Witness. She had a book entitled "The Harp of God" written by  Rutherford in the early 1900s. 

I was on Project Gutenberg and came upon it.  I was perusing it, and saw this. Thought I'd share it.   The dates are remarkable. 

 

[394]Jehovah caused the prophet Daniel to write the salient features of events that would come to pass during the rule of the world powers that would be in existence from the time of the empire of Persia until "the time of the end". That which Daniel wrote was prophecy; that is to say, guided by the divine power, he recorded long in advance the happenings of certain events, which of itself shows that this prophecy could not be understood until the events had transpired. Daniel wrote concerning these events, but did not understand them. They are set forth in his prophetic utterances recorded in the book of Daniel, chapters 7 to 12, inclusive. Daniel himself said: "I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." (Daniel 12:8-10) The Lord had caused Daniel to record specifically what would happen when the time of the end should begin. The "time of the end" means a specific period at the end of gentile dominion. "And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him; and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown."—Daniel 11:40,41.

[395]The fulfillment of this prophecy fixes the beginning of the "time of the end", because the prophecy definitely so states. The campaign of the great warrior Napoleon Bonaparte is clearly a fulfillment of this prophecy, as reference to the historical facts concerning his campaign plainly show. The "king of the south" mentioned in the prophecy refers to Egypt; the "king of the north" means Great Britain, which was then an integral part of the Roman empire. Napoleon was in Egypt fighting the Egyptian armies, which were led by Murat Bey, and which he defeated. His victory not only struck terror to the Egyptians, but far into Africa and Asia, and all the surrounding tribes submitted to the great conqueror. While he was doing this, the British in the north, under the leadership of Lord Nelson, were making an effective attack upon Napoleon's forces at sea. Napoleon began this Egyptian campaign in 1798, finished it and returned to France on October 1, 1799. The campaign is briefly, yet graphically, described in the prophecy, verses 40 to 44; and being completed in 1799, marks, according to the Prophet's own words, the beginning of the "time of the end".

[396]From the time of the overthrow of Zedekiah (606 B.C.) and the establishment of the gentile universal empire under Nebuchadnezzar, the organizations of the world powers or governments have been designated in the Scriptures by God's Prophet as "beasts". The prophet Daniel (7:7,8) describes "a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible". This terrible beast was a form of government composed of three elements or component parts, namely, professional politicians, great financiers, and ecclesiastical leaders. This Satanic organization became dreadful and terrible from the time that these three forces were united. Of this unholy trinity, we see the Papacy, the ecclesiastical element, in the saddle, riding and directing everything. The date of its beginning was at the overthrow of the Ostrogothic monarchy, which occurred in A.D. 539.

[397]The prophet Daniel was given a vision of the events following, yet he did not understand them; and he says: "I looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half." (Daniel 12:5-7) In Biblical symbology a time means a year of twelve months of thirty days each, or 360 days. Each day is considered for a year, as the Prophet says: "I have appointed thee each day for a year". (Ezekiel 4:6) Here are mentioned, then, three and a half times of 360 prophetic days each, or a total of 1260 prophetic days, equal to 1260 years. The Prophet then was shown that the 1260 years would mark the beginning of the time of the end of this beastly order. Twelve-hundred sixty years from A.D. 539 brings us to 1799—another proof that 1799 definitely marks the beginning of "the time of the end". This also shows that it is from the date 539 A.D. that the other prophetic days of Daniel must be counted.

[398]The most important thing to which all the prophecies point and for which the apostles looked forward has been the second coming of the Lord. It is described by the Prophet as a blessed time. Daniel then says: "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty [1335] days". (Daniel 12:12) The watchers here, without question, are those who were instructed by the Lord to watch for his return. This date, therefore, when understood, would certainly fix the time when the Lord is due at his second appearing. Applying the same rule, then, of a day for a year, 1335 days after 539 A.D. brings us to A.D. 1874, at which time, according to Biblical chronology, the Lord's second presence is due. If this calculation is correct, from that time forward we ought to be able to find some evidences marking the Lord's presence.

[399]It Is not the purpose of this writing to enter into a detailed statement of Biblical chronology. The searcher for truth can find an extensive treatment of this question in Volumes 2 and 3 of STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES. The purpose here is to call attention to certain important dates and then see how much, if any, prophecy has been fulfilled within these dates. Chronology, to some extent at least, depends upon accurate calculations and there is always some possibility of mistakes. Fulfilled prophecy is the record of physical facts which are actually existent and definitely fixed. Physical facts do not stultify themselves. They stand as silent witnesses whose testimony must be taken as indisputable.

[400]There are two important dates here that we must not confuse, but clearly differentiate, namely, the beginning of "the time of the end" and of "the presence of the Lord". "The time of the end" embraces a period from A.D. 1799, as above indicated, to the time of the complete overthrow of Satan's empire and the establishment of the kingdom of the Messiah. The time of the Lord's second presence dates from 1874, as above stated. The latter period is within the first named, of course, and at the latter part of the period known as "the time of the end".

[401]The understanding of the prophecies with reference to "the time of the end" and the Lord's presence was purposely concealed by Jehovah until the due time. Daniel desired to know what would be the end of these things, but God said to him: "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end". (Daniel 12:4) It is reasonable to expect that Jehovah would indicate something by which "the time of the end" could be discerned when it arrived. He did not say to Daniel to look for some words emblazoned across the sky that the end had come, but told him to look for such evidences as could be seen and understood by men familiar with the prophecies, and who in the light of the prophecies should be watching for their fulfillment. He did not expect Daniel to understand it in his day, because he said: "Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end".—Daniel 12:9.

 

402]When that time should arrive, what was to be expected? Jehovah answers: "Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased". (Daniel 12:4) From and shortly after 1799, the date of the beginning of "the time of the end", we should expect to find an increase of knowledge, particularly with reference to the Bible. Prior to that time the people had been kept in ignorance of the Bible. It was the practice of the Papacy to forbid any one aside from the clergy class to have access to the Bible; in fact, it was made a crime under the Roman law, subjecting the offender to heavy penalties for having in possession a copy of the Bible. In 1799 the beastly power of Rome, predominated by the Papal system, received a deadly wound. The people had been taught to believe in the divine right of kings to rule and the divine right of the clergy to dominate the conscience of the people. When Napoleon took the Pope a prisoner and carried him away to France, and when later he refused to permit the Pope to crown him as king, but put the crown on himself and treated the Papal claimed authority with contempt, this began to open the eyes of the peoples of earth, kings as well as people, to the fact that Papacy did not possess the divine right it claimed.

 

Here is a link to the book:  https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/12868/pg12868-images.html

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Greetings Theophilus,

17 hours ago, Theophilus said:

"The Harp of God" written by  Rutherford in the early 1900s

There are some interesting comments, but I suspect that the JW's would now consider that many aspects of this book would now be superseded by their later books. The Book highlights one interesting feature copied below, and this is the well known JW statement which they now have trouble explaining, despite the recent suggestion of "Parallel Generations":

Proof Conclusive that
Millions now Living will never Die

17 hours ago, Theophilus said:

Daniel 11:40,41. [395]The fulfillment of this prophecy fixes the beginning of the "time of the end", because the prophecy definitely so states. The campaign of the great warrior Napoleon Bonaparte is clearly a fulfillment of this prophecy, as reference to the historical facts concerning his campaign plainly show. The "king of the south" mentioned in the prophecy refers to Egypt; the "king of the north" means Great Britain, which was then an integral part of the Roman empire.

Perhaps this is one of the most unusual interpretations of Daniel 11:40-41. The details in Daniel 11:40-45 do not fit the historical events surrounding Napoleon mentioned above, and most probably this is not the present JW understanding of these verses. Both JWs and SDAs do not believe in the return of the Jews to the Holy Land for the purpose of their conversion when Jesus returns, but the prophets clearly teach this.

Kind regards Trevor  

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Hello, Trevor.

I was fascinated by the 539 and the 1799 dates. .  I just found it interesting, and good to use if you are witnessing to the Witnesses.  We are using it on another forum, and the witness is saying greater light is with them now. Oh, well...

I think the prophets are referring to spiritual Israel, both converted Jews and Gentiles. You don't get brownie points for genealogy. Israel didn't keep their side of the covenant. A covenant is 2 sided.

As for the conversion of the Jews, have you read  Matt 21:33-43?

 

The Parable of the Tenants

33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

“‘The stone the builders rejected
    has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
    and it is marvelous in our eyes’[a]?

43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit

 

Romans 2:28-29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

Gal 3:28-2928     There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

 

Roman 2:11   For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

And if all Israel will be saved is literal, why aren't Dan and Ephraim included in the tribe list in Revelation? God cut them out because of idolatry. Wait a minute. the covenant was made before the idolatry. Does that mean that sin and unbelief make you not part of the promise?  Could that be true now?

 

Luke 16:30-31   ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

 

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Greetings again Theophilus, 

12 hours ago, Theophilus said:

I think the prophets are referring to spiritual Israel, both converted Jews and Gentiles.

There are at least three major views of the 1000 years and these three groups were represented at the time of the Millerites in 1843, and these three groups are present in some developed form now. The SDAs believe that the faithful will go to heaven and the earth will be burnt. The JWs believe that 144,000 go to heaven and the rest of the faithful will be upon the earth and all others will be destroyed. Other groups, including the group that I endorse believe that Jesus will return and give everlasting life to the faithful and they will reign on earth as Kings / Priests to the nations, These nations are Israel of whom Jesus will convert a substantial remnant, and other mortal nations whom Jesus will cause to submit, and then instruct in the ways of God. My understanding in support of this last group is based upon Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Daniel 2:35,44, Zechariah 14 and Acts 3:19-21 excludes the SDA view and part of the JW view. Concerning the rest of your comments, yes, salvation is on an individual basis. The special status of Israel was removed when they rejected Jesus, but there is ample prophecies that speak of what will happen when Jesus returns. SDAs ignore most of the details of the prophecies, for example Isaiah 2:1-4 and Zechariah 14 which are like bookends to the many prophecies that speak concerning the sufferings of Christ and the future Kingdom.

Kind regards Trevor

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Theophiluswould you believe that I two believe in the things you commented on years ago. I wrote an article:

Keeping in step with history, Rome does not need to be discussed any more either as pagan Rome. . . 

The Byzantine Empire which included Egypt has now become “the kingdom of the south” and “the kingdom of the north” is now Europe under Pope Urban II. Rome had fallen, Catholicism have already emerged plucking out the three horns of Arianism. But religious beliefs divided the eastern Greek Orthodox Church from the western church under Catholicism. The Pope called upon all Christians to join a war against the Turks (a new and powerful religion called Islamic), who had come into control of the Eastern Church which also included the “kingdom of the south-Egypt,” known as the Ottoman Empire.

Dan 11:13: Once again time has change and skips over centuries now America was born as a new nation. Britain and France was fighting for dominance and a new Emperor emerged as the “king of the north,” Napoleon Bonaparte. In a largely unsuccessful effort to gain the support of the Egyptian populace, Napoleon Bonaparte issued proclamations that cast him as a liberator of the people from Ottoman oppression. He successfully fought the Battle of Chobrakit against the Mamluks, an old power in the Middle East.

Dan 11:14: 

 

·        Italo-Turkish War (1911-1912)

·        Balkan and Ottoman Empire Wars (1912–1913)

·        Ottoman Empire with the British against Napoleon I of France (1801)

This era was the formation of the “ten toes” that Yahweh had revealed to both Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel in Chapter Two. Italy was one of the toes that contain both iron and clay. Italy had established a powerful kingdom that defeated the weak Ottoman Empire. It would take back full control of Libya which is part of North Afrika near Egypt. Revolts by Palestinian Arabs against the Egyptians and Ottoman rulers at this time may have helped to catalyze Palestinian national feeling. Both Jews (remnants left after years of exiling the nobles from AD 70 into Europe) and Arabs were together living in Palestine. Italy won the control over Libya.

The Balkan Wars were two wars in South-eastern Europe in 1912–1913 in the course of which the Balkan League (Bulgaria, Montenegro, Greece, and Serbia) first conquered Ottomans-held Macedonia, Albania and most of Thrace.

I wrote this article back in 2012 and also included the USA. Now, I do want to say that Chapter 12 of Daniel shows MICHAEL STANDING FOR HIS people. Then Daniel see a Time of Trouble that never have been seen on the earth before. He then see people coming up out of the grave. Some for everlasting LIFE and others to everlasting contempt. He also see the wise teachers. The teachers and those who have risen "and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever." Then Daniel is told to shut up the book until the time of the end. That time is picked up by Revelation told by Gabriel and written by John.

The Revelation of YASHUA THE MESSIAH, which ELOHE gave unto HIM, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and HE sent and signified it by HIS angel unto HIS servant John: Who bare record of the Word of ELOHE, and of the Testimony of YASHUA THE MESSIAH, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1:1-3

e Gabriel give to John the final prophecy where Daniel was told to seal until the end. Briefly, if you read Chapter 4-6 this is what Hiram Edison saw; the Court and Judgment Seat of THE FATHER,YAHWEH! Let me kindly say, the letter J did not come about until the middle ages. Ex 3:15 and the many artifacts found in Canaan/Palestine, proves THE NAME YAHWHEH. Many other names have popped up in the last 25-35 years are in error. Because most do not know that the language used both consonant as vowels along with real vowels.

Moving on in the last verse of Rev Chapter 6 there are two wraths; THE LAMB'S AND THE FATHER'S. Chapter 7 shows that THE FATHER'S House is for all people and ancient IsraEL never completed the job. HE never changes. When Jacob was given that name it was an everlasting name for those who overcame, like he did. Yes, it was given to his children to restore HIS House on earth, that Nimrod through Satan, wanted to destroy! IsraEL did not meant for Jacob's sons but for their character. Dan and Manasseh fail into sin and their character will keep them out of the kingdom.

The 144,000 took up their name and here is the proof:

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.  Rev 7:14

These are the righteous people that the wise teachers and those that will rise up during the Time of Trouble. So, that leads us to Chapter 8-9 which is the Time of trouble. In Chapter 8 a comet, asteroid the size of a mountain hit 1/3 of the earth and the other 1/3 of the sea and people die and ships destroyed. That is blowing of the trumpets 1rst and 2nd. The 3rd trumpet blows and it is a large meteor that breaks up and hits 1/3 of the rivers and all the fountains of waters turn bitter and poisonousness and people died. Then the 4th trumpet blows it are meteors hit the moon, and the sun and for the first time, these two luminaries move from there original place. This was the place they were given since creation. Then an angels states 3 woes. Chapter nine: John see for the first time, when the 5th trumpets blow. All of the wicked angels are release from prison in the bottomless pit! There are so many of them that it looks like smoke. Trillions or Zillions or even more of these wicked angels. They even cover of the moon and the sun and they draw close to the earth they now look like locust! The Bible said they were given power like scorpions. They were coming to destroy and THE FATHER Gave them a Command! They were not to hurt any tree or  grass or anything green. This symbolize those the great multitude that would be sealed. THE FATHER Said not to even touch them and HE Told something else. Not to kill the wicked on to torture them! Please read the Chapter.

The Time of Trouble has nothing do with the Sabbath vs Sunday because the Bible does not say so.

Finishing from 10-21, Gabriel tells how every will come to a head. The beast is not the papacy, she is the whore who rides him. Gabriel reveals the mystery of them both. Shows that the papacy will regain power during the Time of Trouble but the Wise Teachers will have THE SPIRIT of Elijah. Those who will finish the work is NOT LIKE the martyr's of the past. They will have the same SPIRIT that Moses and Elijah had, that POWER will call down those element from out in space. They will deal with the Papacy. He will have his rule in the city that fail, Jerusalem. It has become Babylon may religions are house there. The Papacy will unite them and the Wise Teachers will do what Elijah did to Ahab and Moses to Pharaoh. This time on a larger and more  dynamic scale. The 6th trumpet is the second woe and the angels and Satan are reveal and they wreck havoc on the wicked torturing them that they want to die but can't.

No one knows who the beast is! This man will be taken to Satan seat and it is not the earth. It where his angels were housed/prison but now release! This man will come down just before the 7th angels blows in Chapter 7. This is the final woe and he bring on Armageddon and before this take place, THE FATHER will bring HIS WRATH the 7 last plagues for the beast and the papacy. The Time of Trouble had ended and all have been seal! Now, the earth final battle between flesh beings will take place. While they are planning to fight the battle of Armageddon YAHSHUA is coming. THE FATHER Tell all those who are sealed and have been scatter for protection against the wicked and the war! The wicked hear it (now this is in Daniel Chapter 12), they do not understand. The righteous know that 1,335 days from 1,260 and 1,290. The first is 75 or 2 months and 15 days, this when probation has close and the beast comes. There is no intercession during this time. He comes, the false prophet assist him and he now makes the 10 horn to become kings again, and he give them their power. They will hate the whore/papacy and return their power to the beast. The false prophet will make an image like the beast. But listen carefully:

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. Rev 13:15  

This image is given life and can speak. When have you ever seen and image to come to life and talk? Folks, this is Satan just like with Nebuchadnezzar! The IMAGE IS WORSHIP and not the beast. Wake up!

The papacy will be destroyed by the beast, YAHSHUA will come, HE will com with in those last 15 days. Both THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET will be put in the Lake of Everlasting Fire. Where is the image? Chapter 20 shows that it was Satan and now he and his angels will return to prison. For the first time he is lock down also! The will be for a thousand years. The wicked destroyed, the birds have eaten their flesh and this earth looks a mess! The saints all are all in Heaven! I will stop here. There is a lot I have not stated. If you have any questions, just ask me. Let's not argue but let's come together and see if these things are so!

Blessings!

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Greetings Stinsonmarri,

3 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

The saints all are all in Heaven! I will stop here.

No, the saints will be with Jesus upon the earth for the 1000 years. The rest of your post is a strange mixture of ideas.

Kind regards Trevor

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11 hours ago, TrevorL said:

These nations are Israel of whom Jesus will convert a substantial remnant, and other mortal nations whom Jesus will cause to submit, and then instruct in the ways of God

Aside from saying I am aware of the Adventist belief , right off the bat, we have a big problem.  You say Jesus is causing people to submit, a thing He would never do. We come to Him through our own free will, or it's not love. We choose to serve.

God does not rule by force. If He did, we wouldn't have to repent on own own, and come to Him. We'd be forced to.

Jesus will draw those who love Him to Himself. Has zero to do with genealogy

Rev 22:17 "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

How do we take the water of life? Freely.  No coercion

 

I will look at the other verses later that you posted. I am late for Latin class.


 

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In responding to some of what has been posted in this thread:

It would be well to consider the difference between isogenesis and exegesis.

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Greetings again Theophilus, 

13 hours ago, Theophilus said:

Aside from saying I am aware of the Adventist belief , right off the bat, we have a big problem.  You say Jesus is causing people to submit, a thing He would never do. We come to Him through our own free will, or it's not love. We choose to serve. God does not rule by force. If He did, we wouldn't have to repent on own own, and come to Him. We'd be forced to.

What you are saying is true about faith and personal salvation, but I am talking about what will happen after Jesus returns. The following gives some indication of what will happen.

Isaiah 26:9–10 (KJV): 9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. 10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

In contrast to this, both the SDAs and JWs teach that the nations will be destroyed at the return of Jesus. That a significant remnant of the nations survive judgements at the return of Jesus is clearly taught in the two "bookends" of prophecy:

Isaiah 2:1–4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more

Zechariah 14:16–17 (KJV): 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain

Both of the above passages depict events soon after the return of Jesus and his intervention at the Battle of Armageddon. I understand that the following passages depict events surrounding the Battle of Armageddon and afterwards: Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Ezekile 38-39, Daniel 2:35,44, 8:25, 11:40-45, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21, Revelation 16:13-16. In contrast JWs, SDAs and some earth burning Evangelicals and Baptists do not agree as they teach that the nations will be destroyed.

Kind regards Trevor 

 

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This is the Second Coming 1 Thess 4:16-18

"16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."
 
And
Rev 20:1-4
 

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

So here is the judgement in Heaven taking place for that 1000 years.

Then Rev 21:2

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 


 

Then

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Zech 14:5 says Christ returns with His saints. So they must have gone up before as it says in 1 Thess 4.

And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

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On 11/15/2021 at 1:29 AM, TrevorL said:

Greetings Stinsonmarri,

No, the saints will be with Jesus upon the earth for the 1000 years. The rest of your post is a strange mixture of ideas.

Kind regards Trevor

Well Trevor: I do not have to provide the Scriptures. Theophilus did an excellent job. You need to stop always link everything to a specific church. It is what the Bible says and not the denomination. The Bible can speak for itself, if you let it.

Blessings!

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On 11/15/2021 at 1:29 AM, TrevorL said:

The rest of your post is a strange mixture of ideas.

Trevor: Did you read what I wrote: "There is a lot I have not stated. If you have any questions, just ask me. Let's not argue but let's come together and see if these things are so!I also said to read the Chapters. If you feel something is strange and mix then show me or provide in the Bible what you see that I don't. I would appreciate it very much.

Blessings!

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Greetings again Theophilus again Stinsonmarri, 

4 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Theophilus did an excellent job.

4 hours ago, Theophilus said:

This is the Second Coming 1 Thess 4:16-18

Neither of you have considered the many verses that I quoted, and the SDA and JW perspective cannot reconcile these verses with their general teaching. They both reject the detail.

When I was in my teens we used to go the the Sydney Domain, a park where public speaking was allowed and there were about 8-10 different stands. I spoke to an older SDA and somehow Zechariah 14 was mentioned. The SDA stated that he could not understand why Zechariah 14 is in the Bible. This encounter was instrumental in the direction of my life since then. Other encounters with SDAs has confirmed my decision.

Just one aspect, I believe that Gog is the King of the North of both Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:40-45, and my belief is that this is Russia who will invade the Middle East before Armageddon. I also consider that Russia will invade Istanbul and consolidate Russia's position before invading the Middle East as depicted in Daniel 11:40-45 and Ezekiel 38.

Kind regards Trevor

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11 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Theophilus again Stinsonmarri, 

Neither of you have considered the many verses that I quoted, and the SDA and JW perspective cannot reconcile these verses with their general teaching. They both reject the detail.

When I was in my teens we used to go the the Sydney Domain, a park where public speaking was allowed and there were about 8-10 different stands. I spoke to an older SDA and somehow Zechariah 14 was mentioned. The SDA stated that he could not understand why Zechariah 14 is in the Bible. This encounter was instrumental in the direction of my life since then. Other encounters with SDAs has confirmed my decision.

Just one aspect, I believe that Gog is the King of the North of both Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:40-45, and my belief is that this is Russia who will invade the Middle East before Armageddon. I also consider that Russia will invade Istanbul and consolidate Russia's position before invading the Middle East as depicted in Daniel 11:40-45 and Ezekiel 38.

Kind regards Trevor

I did consider them. Let's go over them. Isaiah 26:9–10 This Chapter goes back also from the previous one. This is ancient IsraEL and if they would have follow THE FATHER'S WILL then things would have been different and the would lead people on earth to HIS House. This was not the latter days nor the return of YAHSHUA. This text did not mention THE SON but it was dealing with THE FATHER!

Zechariah 14:16–17 This again was a future promise to IsraEL and Jerusalem. But this city has become Sodom and Babylon in Rev 11 and 18 a New Jerusalem that is made in Heaven and promise by YAHSHUA in John. YAHSHUA said: Let not your heart be trouble and HE go to prepare a place. This place was the New Jerusalem because the old one has fail and would become uncage birds of different religions. I lived there in and the Christians, Islamic, Coptic and other sects like during the time of the disciples/apostles. Ancient IsraEL and Jerusalem has fail so you cannot accept them. The New Jerusalem is the promise to be made by YAHSHUA!

Trevor this never took place that was a promise if IsraEL had obeyed, they didn't. If you notice in Rev Chapter 20 THE FATHER and the Heavenly Temple also come down the earth made New and that found in Isa 66:22-24. Please know that YAHSHUA and the saints return to eat at the welcome table in Heaven and then went over the Books. After the Thousands years and Satan and all the wicked destroy by fire. The earth will be made New. Now, YAHSHUAH and the New City will come down first after the thousands years. HE will plant HIS FEET on Mt Olivet and it will become a plain. Because the old Jerusalem will be destroyed. Yes, that is the battle of Armageddon when it will be destroyed.

Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for ELOHIYM hath avenged you on her. Rev 18:20  

After the New City comes down and all is destroyed then THE FATHER and The Heavenly Temple will come down because the earth will have been made New. The New earth will be the New Head Quarters! I have answer you concerns. I hope that you realize that the latter days given to John is different from your verses and you notice certain things, the reason why! 

Be blessed always!

 

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Greetings again Stinsonmarri, 

7 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Trevor this never took place that was a promise if IsraEL had obeyed, they didn't.

No, it is still future. Both Ezekiel 38 and Zechariah 14 depict events that will happen because Israel are not at present faithful and obedient. These depict some aspects of the judgements that God will pour out on Israel and the nations leading up to when Jesus returns and afterwards. Zechariah 14 also speaks of the nations during the 1000 years:

Zechariah 14:16–19 (KJV): 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

You also like to wipe out the detail of these prophecies by your view of Revelation 20. What you fail to recognise is that the faithful will become Kings and Priests during the 1000 years, but both JWs and SDAs believe that the nations will be wiped out during the Millennium. How can the faithful be Kings and Priests if there are no mortal inhabitants in the earth during the 1000 years?

Revelation 5:9–10 (KJV): 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 20:4–6 (KJV): 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

Kind regards Trevor

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On 11/17/2021 at 6:50 PM, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Stinsonmarri, 

No, it is still future. Both Ezekiel 38 and Zechariah 14 depict events that will happen because Israel are not at present faithful and obedient. These depict some aspects of the judgements that God will pour out on Israel and the nations leading up to when Jesus returns and afterwards. Zechariah 14 also speaks of the nations during the 1000 years:

Zechariah 14:16–19 (KJV): 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

You also like to wipe out the detail of these prophecies by your view of Revelation 20. What you fail to recognise is that the faithful will become Kings and Priests during the 1000 years, but both JWs and SDAs believe that the nations will be wiped out during the Millennium. How can the faithful be Kings and Priests if there are no mortal inhabitants in the earth during the 1000 years?

Revelation 5:9–10 (KJV): 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 20:4–6 (KJV): 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

Kind regards Trevor

Trevor have you heard of a dual prophecy, well Zachariah Chapter 14 is one. 

Behold, the day of YAHWEH cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall YAHWEH go forth, and fight against those nations, as when HE fought in the day of battle. And HIS FEET shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and YAHWEH my ELOHIYM shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: Zech 14:1-6

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our MASTER was CRUCIFIED. Rev 11:8  

 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Rev 14:8

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.   For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of EL SHADDAI.  {Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.}  And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.   And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before ELOHIYM, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of *his wrath. Rev 16:12-16, 19

 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.  And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.  And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tonguesAnd the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fireFor ELOHIYM hath put in their hearts to fulfil *HIS WILL, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of ELOHIYM shall be fulfilled. And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Rev 17:5-18

And after these things I saw another angel come down from Heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his splendour. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.  For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.  And I heard another VOICE from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto Heaven, and ELOHIYM hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath extolled herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is YAHWEH **ELOHIYM who judgeth her.  And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,  Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city for in one hour is thy judgment come. And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.  And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 
The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 
And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city  And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness for in one hour is she made desolate. Rejoice over her, thou Heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for ELOHIYM hath avenged you on her. And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;  And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. Rev 18:1-24  

If you understand dual prophecy, this Scriptures gives two things that have similar events. They also show there individual or separate part of the event as well. Zechariah Chapter 14 is one of these type of dual prophecies. YAHWEH was showing if ancient IsraEL would be obedient then it would have special privileges. Keep in mind YAHSHUA still have to come and die for the whole world! Things and events would have been different. Sadly, IsraEL fail and YAHWEH show what would eventually happen to her twice over. The latter would be her last and that what is provided in Revelation. She would be judge, she had become like Babylon that was called Babel-confusion! Notice, that this will be Armageddon and the beast will do the Will of THE FATHER and THE SON'S WRATH! Adventist do not see this as Jerusalem but the Bible does not lie!

Jerusalem/Salem/Urusalim history goes back 4000 years. This city was know as the Bible says by the kings of the earth. The great city is mention 7 times and never to Babylon. Gabriel told John that the great city spiritually was Sodom and Egypt. He also mention that the Gentiles in Rev 11:2 would be in control. Now, many want to hid truthfully who are the Gentiles. The Bible tells you from the beginning in Gen 10:5 that they are Japheth children. It is stated in Isaiah that they would receive the Gospel. Paul was their missionary. The Ashkenazi are Gentiles and Gabriel said they would tread down the holy city. We all know it is Jerusalem. Then the 8th verses make it clear that the great city is where YAHSHUA was crucified!

The great city Jerusalem has become Babylon. Rev Chapter 18 states this city killed the prophets, apostles and saints. Paul is proof of killing the saints. You will only find in the Bible, that the people or Israel killed the prophets which includes YAHSHUA. HE IS also A PROPHET! Israel went after the apostles who were the disciples of YAHSHUA!  This is the city that Rev 17:16 states will hate the whore, eat her flesh and burns her! Rev 18:8 says, she is burn with fire and judged by YAHWEH ELOE!

* HIS is not correct it should be THEY/THEM!

[The change that Stinsonmarri has proposed her results in a major change in meaning of the verse. As written in the Bible, it reads as the will of God.  Stinsonmarri suggests a change in wording that would make it read as if it is the will of the ten horns--Gregory Matthews]

** ELOHIYM is a plural word and has been misused. Bible scholars want to make out that THE ALMIGHTY ONES are monotheistic. THEY ARE NOT! The Bible over and over show that THREE ALMIGHTY SPIRIT BEINGS exist. THEY have THEIR INDIVIDUAL Work that THEY DO! THE HOLY SPIRIT and YAHSHUA CREATED the Universe and this earth. Bible scholars put the word "of" that was not in the original language in Gen 1:1. Should say SPIRIT ELOHIYM. ELOHIYM refers to ALL THREE!

Blessings!

[It should be noted that Stinsonmarri often changes the wording of a standard Bible to read as she wishes it to read.  In doing this she neglects good translation and presents views that are rejected  by the Seventh-day Adventist Church.--Gregory Matthews.]

 

 

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Greetings again Stinsonmarri, 

14 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Trevor have you heard of a dual prophecy, well Zachariah Chapter 14 is one.

Your post is too obscure for me to understand. I understand Zechariah 14 is future. My impression of a dual prophecy is that it had some fulfillment in the past usually shortly after the prophecy, but the greater fulfillment would be at a future period of time. I understand Isaiah 53 had some fulfillment in the sufferings of Hezekiah, but the greatest fulfillment was in the sufferings of Jesus. Similarly with Isaiah 2:1-4.

Kind regards Trevor

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19 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Trevor have you heard of a dual prophecy, well Zachariah Chapter 14 is one. 

Behold, the day of YAHWEH cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall YAHWEH go forth, and fight against those nations, as when HE fought in the day of battle. And HIS FEET shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and YAHWEH my ELOHIYM shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: Zech 14:1-6

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our MASTER was CRUCIFIED. Rev 11:8  

 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Rev 14:8

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.   For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of EL SHADDAI.  {Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.}  And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.   And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before ELOHIYM, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of *his wrath. Rev 16:12-16, 19

 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.  And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.  And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tonguesAnd the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fireFor ELOHIYM hath put in their hearts to fulfil *HIS WILL, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of ELOHIYM shall be fulfilled. And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Rev 17:5-18

And after these things I saw another angel come down from Heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his splendour. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.  For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.  And I heard another VOICE from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto Heaven, and ELOHIYM hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath extolled herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is YAHWEH **ELOHIYM who judgeth her.  And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,  Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city for in one hour is thy judgment come. And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.  And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 
The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 
And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city  And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness for in one hour is she made desolate. Rejoice over her, thou Heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for ELOHIYM hath avenged you on her. And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;  And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. Rev 18:1-24  

If you understand dual prophecy, this Scriptures gives two things that have similar events. They also show there individual or separate part of the event as well. Zechariah Chapter 14 is one of these type of dual prophecies. YAHWEH was showing if ancient IsraEL would be obedient then it would have special privileges. Keep in mind YAHSHUA still have to come and die for the whole world! Things and events would have been different. Sadly, IsraEL fail and YAHWEH show what would eventually happen to her twice over. The latter would be her last and that what is provided in Revelation. She would be judge, she had become like Babylon that was called Babel-confusion! Notice, that this will be Armageddon and the beast will do the Will of THE FATHER and THE SON'S WRATH! Adventist do not see this as Jerusalem but the Bible does not lie!

Jerusalem/Salem/Urusalim history goes back 4000 years. This city was know as the Bible says by the kings of the earth. The great city is mention 7 times and never to Babylon. Gabriel told John that the great city spiritually was Sodom and Egypt. He also mention that the Gentiles in Rev 11:2 would be in control. Now, many want to hid truthfully who are the Gentiles. The Bible tells you from the beginning in Gen 10:5 that they are Japheth children. It is stated in Isaiah that they would receive the Gospel. Paul was their missionary. The Ashkenazi are Gentiles and Gabriel said they would tread down the holy city. We all know it is Jerusalem. Then the 8th verses make it clear that the great city is where YAHSHUA was crucified!

The great city Jerusalem has become Babylon. Rev Chapter 18 states this city killed the prophets, apostles and saints. Paul is proof of killing the saints. You will only find in the Bible, that the people or Israel killed the prophets which includes YAHSHUA. HE IS also A PROPHET! Israel went after the apostles who were the disciples of YAHSHUA!  This is the city that Rev 17:16 states will hate the whore, eat her flesh and burns her! Rev 18:8 says, she is burn with fire and judged by YAHWEH ELOE!

* HIS is not correct it should be THEY/THEM!

[The change that Stinsonmarri has proposed her results in a major change in meaning of the verse. As written in the Bible, it reads as the will of God.  Stinsonmarri suggests a change in wording that would make it read as if it is the will of the ten horns--Gregory Matthews]

** ELOHIYM is a plural word and has been misused. Bible scholars want to make out that THE ALMIGHTY ONES are monotheistic. THEY ARE NOT! The Bible over and over show that THREE ALMIGHTY SPIRIT BEINGS exist. THEY have THEIR INDIVIDUAL Work that THEY DO! THE HOLY SPIRIT and YAHSHUA CREATED the Universe and this earth. Bible scholars put the word "of" that was not in the original language in Gen 1:1. Should say SPIRIT ELOHIYM. ELOHIYM refers to ALL THREE!

Blessings!

[It should be noted that Stinsonmarri often changes the wording of a standard Bible to read as she wishes it to read.  In doing this she neglects good translation and presents views that are rejected  by the Seventh-day Adventist Church.--Gregory Matthews.]

 

 

Pastor Matthew: If you read my comment I stated "You need to stop always link everything to a specific church. It is what the Bible says and not the denomination. The Bible can speak for itself, if you let it." I also quoted this in this comment as well! "Adventist do not see this as Jerusalem but the Bible does not lie!"

I have constantly explain to you over and over as well on my comments that I do not deal with denomination views. I deal with the Bible. You have constantly call me out and this thread is base on JW view. What is the problem when I have never said anything about any denomination including Adventist Pastor Matthew? I have I am an Adventist by faith and there are many here that do not hold up the denomination views. There are many different Adventist: Reform, Some not a part of the conference and others. I am one by faith and only what the Bible says. I have that right of choice as you have yours. But I have said many times the things I differ with the mainstream church! I said in this thread!

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Marri, I would just go to a Bible site and cut and paste the text you use word for word, and then tell which version it came from. Every time I turn around, somebody over here is saying stuff directly to you, as if others didn't deserve to have stuff said to them too.:reyes: And in your own  post, no less.

Anyway, do that and then say what you need to say and what you believe, so things become more clear to whoever is complaining.  You can put up a header and then itemize it. Point 1, and your response with Bible text, Point 2, etc.

 

And use this as your signature, so there will be no doubt. I'd use it on every post. " ... I do not deal with denomination views. I deal with the Bible.'

 

It is all eisegesis anyway, from everyone, including men of the cloth.

 

 

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Stinsonmarri, here is the bottom line:  You can not be trusted to accurately quote a Biblical verse from a Standard English translation of the Bible.

You often change the text to reflect your own views.

You often fail to provide the translation taht you are using.

You often use a translation that is not a standard one used by most English speaking people.  so, when people look to your cited verse in their own Bibles, they find it reads differently from what you have cited.

 

 

 

 

 

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On 11/21/2021 at 2:29 PM, Theophilus said:

Marri, I would just go to a Bible site and cut and paste the text you use word for word, and then tell which version it came from. Every time I turn around, somebody over here is saying stuff directly to you, as if others didn't deserve to have stuff said to them too.:reyes: And in your own  post, no less.

Anyway, do that and then say what you need to say and what you believe, so things become more clear to whoever is complaining.  You can put up a header and then itemize it. Point 1, and your response with Bible text, Point 2, etc.

 

And use this as your signature, so there will be no doubt. I'd use it on every post. " ... I do not deal with denomination views. I deal with the Bible.'

 

It is all eisegesis anyway, from everyone, including men of the cloth.

 

 

Thanks for the advise. I forget to put the translated Bible I used but I will do it in the beginning. I am not into exegesis because it comes from the Greek, the leopard beast. It appears those from the cloth rely on that more than the Bible. The Bible as I have said is self explained. If Bible scholars would take the time in translation to find the most suitable words and stop adding words for their own personal belief. EGW spoke on that in EW p 220, 222. I am not into religion or denominations but into faith according to the Bible. My faith happens to be 7th day Adventist. I was baptized in the assembly but all of have a right to things that are correct. EGW spoke of that as well in TM p. 105. But, I can always learned from others how to present things better. So, again thank you!

Blessings!

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On 11/21/2021 at 3:45 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

Stinsonmarri, here is the bottom line:  You can not be trusted to accurately quote a Biblical verse from a Standard English translation of the Bible.

You often change the text to reflect your own views.

You often fail to provide the translation taht you are using.

You often use a translation that is not a standard one used by most English speaking people.  so, when people look to your cited verse in their own Bibles, they find it reads differently from what you have cited.

 

 

 

 

 

Pastor Matthew that is not true. I have provided to you several times that I use translations that you do not like. I use mostly the WOY, then the TS2009, HRB, HINV-ye and the Sacred Name KJV. I do not change anything. You have stated negatively about the Strong Dictionary so, I used Brown and Diggs which, actually provides the same thing. If you look at Strong he used 7,000 times in the Hebrew Bible, but it is never translated into English because there is no equivalent. Brown and Diggs is the same. Because I do not agree with the ways words are misuse is my right. I also have provide other well know scholars and  linguist scholars and others who agrees with my views. You don't and that fine, that's your choice and I have mine. But nothing I have ever written have I provided incorrectly. I have ask you over and over to show me just once and you never have. Please sir, out of respect just give me respect and do as the Bible says. When you accuse someone you should provide what you are accusing them about! I have that right! If we disagree, let's not throw unkind darts or sayings unless you can provide the facts and not empty words. Especially, if you do not like what is provided. You first accuse me of saying that the things I present was base on Main Stream Adventist and now here we go with something different.

Thank you!

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On 11/21/2021 at 5:47 AM, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Stinsonmarri, 

Your post is too obscure for me to understand. I understand Zechariah 14 is future. My impression of a dual prophecy is that it had some fulfillment in the past usually shortly after the prophecy, but the greater fulfillment would be at a future period of time. I understand Isaiah 53 had some fulfillment in the sufferings of Hezekiah, but the greatest fulfillment was in the sufferings of Jesus. Similarly with Isaiah 2:1-4.

Kind regards Trevor

Trevor: Read the Scriptures provided and those underline. Those are the main points. I gave you mostly Scriptures from WOY translation that the one I mainly use. I forgot to state it and I am sorry. I will do it in the future. However, it is exactly like the KJV accept the SACRED NAMES are used. They do use a few words that might be a little different. But if you read the Scriptures they are clear!

Blessings!

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33 minutes ago, Theophilus said:

Sister, I just don't like seeing you get stepped on.

Theophilus: I appreciate you truly. Just remember, YAHSHUA got stepped on too! When you are providing truth it is like a two edge sword. People don't like to hear the truth. They get mad, and they cannot, even when you kindly ask them, to show what you said incorrectly. They don't show it, they just say it. When I answered the call, I knew I would not be like very much. I don't follow the crowd! If they felt that I am in error, they would provide the truth to my error. The Bibles says to prove all things and to hold on to those things that are good; which means that are true. I am not going to be accepted by everyone because truth hurts. We are living in the last days. Only eight went into the Ark in Noah's days. 144,000 will finish this work today. I am hoping I am one of them and be sealed.

Some time you have to stand alone. That does not mean you cannot stand up for your principles. You stand kindly, boldly with love but let all know they cannot try to cut me down incorrectly. I will let them know that they are wrong. Soon, YAHSHUA will come and unless we put away those thing that so easily beset us, we will be lost. Adventist included! 

I am striving for perfection. If you notice, I am not alone I have you and my other friend. Those who seek YAHWEH with their whole heart and read what I provide. Make prayerfully in your own heart the things that are true and you will know why I stand.

Have faith my sister and just study and read what is provided and make up your own mind to those things that are so. Thank you very much!

Blessings!

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